#indieweb 2016-08-22
2016-08-22 UTC
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@t East Coast friends: In Boston/Cambridge tomorrow for @W3CAB, Then NYC Th-M for @IndieWebCamp! http:///nyc2 (ttk.me t4iu2) (twitter.com/_/status/767556354374459392)
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seekr Is Loqi a bit? If not - what's W3CAB? I live next door to Cambridge and wanna know what's happening.
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seekr *a bot
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seekr oh - what's W3CAB?
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seekr ok - not a public event, then
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seekr attended the W3 Conference in Boston in '95.
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@TT_SemWeb IndieWebCamp NYC2 2016 - New York https://t.co/Fhp0BNf8KL, see more http://tweetedtimes.com/topic/RWW/semantic-web?s=tnp (twitter.com/_/status/767596471181008896)
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AngeloGladding seekr have you been here before? what brings you to the indieweb?
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seekr I somehow got involved a bit over a year ago when there was an event happening in the UK.
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seekr I like the principles of the organisation, but don't know if I have the skill or time to get involved in the way I might like.
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seekr I have been away from IRC for the past year. I had some chats with some of the folks here a year ago and felt good about the interactions.
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AngeloGladding cool -- I think providing a constructive opinion in the chat here is productive involvement
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seekr very kind of you to say so
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AngeloGladding what is your experience?
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seekr Well, I have a CS degree, from long ago. Have done coding in PHP and Perl.
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seekr I'd like to figure out what I want to do next - what direction to go. I like idealistic sorts of causes, which is what indieweb sounds like to me.
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AngeloGladding yeah I believe the indieweb embodies the fundamental principles of the world wide web more than any other collaboration outside of the W3C
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AngeloGladding have you read http://indieweb.org/Getting_Started
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AngeloGladding ?
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seekr I'm fairly anti-corporation, and like the idea of the independence I find in your founding principles.
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seekr haven't read it - or don't recall if I did - will take a look
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AngeloGladding i'm no official representative but i've been following along for a while and can certainly offer any assistance in the absence of others
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seekr great - thanks much!
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seekr I made contact a year ago here with someone who works across the river from where I live, and we had an agreement in principle to meet up some day.
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seekr Maybe I should dig up the info and give him a poke.
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AngeloGladding indieweb.org contains a wiki with a vast base of knowledge on creating and owning a personal identity independent of large organizations
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AngeloGladding but also synergetic while they maintain a large user base
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AngeloGladding no rivers around me so I take it you're not in LA
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seekr great - are there those who share my strong bias against facebook, google and the other corporate behemoths that do who-knows-what with personal info and may become part of the surveilance state, or is that a separate issue to you folks?
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seekr not in LA (Louisiana or Los Angeles?)
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seekr thanks, tantek - think I remember some interactions I had with you a year ago.
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seekr I'm all for that idea.
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tantek !tell adactio,Jeena,aaronpk can you confirm a venue for your HWC this week? https://indieweb.org/events/2016-08-24-homebrew-website-club#Where

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AngeloGladding seekr Los Angeles and yes I'm possibly more "anti-corp" than some on here and see the indieweb principles and technology as liberating but it is by no means a defining component of an independent web
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AngeloGladding with the indieweb you can have your cake and eat it too..
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seekr Ah, AngeloGladding - I'm originally from the SF Bay Area, but now living across the river from Boston.
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AngeloGladding own your data and maintain independence while engaging with every social contact in your life regardless of their degree of "anti-corp"
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seekr I'm just reading the "Getting Started" article now - think I did look at it a year ago, but it's good to refresh my memory.
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AngeloGladding do you have a website?
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seekr well, I do have a domain - and have set up info in a variety of subdomains to share info with friends
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seekr There's nothing on the home page, tho.
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seekr I do plan to create a site soon - looking at Joomla! as the base.
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seekr That site will be for a special (anti-corporate, in a way) purpose.
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seekr I do help to maintain another site - wrote software to produce pages for it on a weekly basis.
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AngeloGladding what is indiewebify?
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Loqi Indiewebify.me is a service that checks how "indie web" your site is and reports back its results https://indieweb.org/indiewebify

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seekr I'm curious about the "Home Server" idea I'm reading about on the "Getting Started" page.
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seekr ah - does it scan for third party widgets and such?
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seekr Oh - sorry - talking to the bot (blush).
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AngeloGladding Loqi referred to https://indieweb.org/indiewebify to answer that question
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AngeloGladding i'm going to assume you have some basic HTML knowledge
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seekr I know that ISPs don't like their home-based customers running sites, I think mine even blocks port 80, but I would like to think about self-hosting, if possible.
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seekr I learned HTML back in 1995, but haven't kept up with the latest stuff (HTML5, and such).
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seekr I started learning Javascript - want to get back to it one of these days.
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AngeloGladding <html><body><p class=h-card><a class=p-url rel=me href=/>seekr</a></p></body></html> will give you a http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard on your domain
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seekr hmm
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gRegorLove Hey tantek, welcome back.

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AngeloGladding self-hosting has its issues
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gRegorLove And you too, seekr.

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seekr I assume the classes are defined in an external file. (?)
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seekr Thanks, gRegorLove.
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gRegorLove Those classes are microformats

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seekr don't they have to get defined somewhere?
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AngeloGladding what are microformats?
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Loqi microformats are extensions to HTML for marking up people, organizations, events, locations, blog posts, products, reviews, resumes, recipes etc https://indieweb.org/microformats

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AngeloGladding just class names
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seekr oh - they're built-in reserved thingees, I guess.
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AngeloGladding structured according to microformats specifications
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gRegorLove The prefixes like p- u- etc. inform the parser how to extract the information.

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AngeloGladding correct, purely semantic
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seekr ok
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AngeloGladding the code I provided you is an h-card which represents people, places and organizatios
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gRegorLove pin13.net is an example of teh PHP microformats parser. Here it is parsing my homepage: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=gregorlove.com

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seekr it looks like a complete web page - where do you use it?
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gRegorLove There's parsers in multiple programming languages

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seekr yeah - I learned how to write parsers (at least simple ones) a long time ago :)
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AngeloGladding well it depends exactly how you're hosting it
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AngeloGladding which sounds important to you
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AngeloGladding *the details of which
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seekr well, if it's possible to do self-hosting without a lot of bother, I'd like to give it a go, though I do have an account with a web hosting company (whose service has declined drastically in the past year :( )
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "static hosting" yet. Would you like to create it?

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Loqi GitHub Pages is a static content hosting service https://indieweb.org/github-pages

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seekr oh - I see tantek is poking Loqi - I'm a bit slow tonight :)
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gRegorLove What is static site?

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Loqi A static site is a website that is served by a web server directly from the file system https://indieweb.org/static-site

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gRegorLove static hosting is /static_site_generator

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seekr can one use a CMS in such a setup?
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seekr wait a sec - aren't all sites served directly from a file system?
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gRegorLove seekr: Certainly. There's a variety of ways to publish on the indieweb, not about using one piece of software (see /monoculture)

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seekr ok
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AngeloGladding a "static generator" is probably not generally considered to be the same as a "CMS" but can technically be one
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AngeloGladding joomla would not be a static generator
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seekr yeah - CMSes use a database to store content
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seekr Joomla! and Drupal use MySQL.
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gRegorLove Several here use WordPress, also MySQL.

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gRegorLove I use ProcessWire, also MySQL

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seekr Though I s'pose they can be configured to use other DBMSes.
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seekr I think that Joomla! and Drupal and Plone are more powerful than WordPress, though I know that WP has evolved a lot in recent years.
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AngeloGladding the conduit is entirely up to you. I provided you with the entire contents of a text file that you could upload to `index.html` in a web server's root.
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gRegorLove Sure. Whatever makes it easiest for you to publish on your own site.

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seekr ok - I can give it a go, AngeloGladding - just a sec...
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AngeloGladding you can have a script generate a more complex version of that site for you on demand or on a regular basis or you can have a dynamic script that generates on the fly per request -- and everything in between
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AngeloGladding sure if you have access to a web server's root give it a whirl
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gRegorLove seekr: See this page, too. If you add rel-me links to the index.html, you'll be able to sign into the indieweb.org wiki. https://indieweb.org/How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain

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seekr right - I'll get back to you in a few mins - after doing a setup to see how this all works.
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seekr gRegorLove: will also look at https://processwire.com/demo/
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[kevinmarks] Tantek, can you do a pop-up hwc in Boston, or are you flying Wednesday night?

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seekr OK, AngeloGladding (et. al.) - I set up http://hcard.webruary.org/
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seekr I assume there's a bit more to it - gotta add some more info to make it a meaningful exercise.
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seekr hey tantek - mebbe we can get together when you're in town?
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seekr Boston
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seekr I live in Somerville, next to Cambridge.
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seekr ok - understood - was a thought, at least :)
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seekr perhaps next time, then
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seekr anyway, I'm gonna have to do some reading to figger out what to do with this hCard thing.
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seekr AngeloGladding: Is the idea that the 'rel="me"' thing causes what's in the 'href=' bit to get parsed and what comes after the domain name to get fed to the login mechanism of the targeted site?
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AngeloGladding i'm back
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seekr wb
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KartikPrabhu seekr: the entire href is used for the login

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seekr hmm
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seekr I'm looking at item (1) on the "how to set up web sign-in" page...
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seekr I'm seeing what look lilke user-IDs ("aaronpk") following the domain name - does the site itself (e.g. "twitter.com") pick the user-ID out of the URL?
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KartikPrabhu seekr: you need not worry about what parts of the URL are used internally. You only need your Twitter URL

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seekr I just tried https://twitter.com/aaronpk - and got Aaron's page.
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AngeloGladding so if you want to use webruary.org to sign in to an indiewebsite using indieauth i'd recommend putting your hcard on webruary.org
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seekr well, I sorta did - as a test, at least
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seekr lemme try something...
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AngeloGladding what is rel-me
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Loqi Using rel=me on a hyperlink indicates that its destination represents the same person or entity as the current page, which is a key building-block of web-sign-in and IndieAuth https://indieweb.org/rel%3Dme

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AngeloGladding by `rel=me`ing href="/" you're saying on http://hcard.webruary.org/ that http://hcard.webruary.org/ is the person "seekr"
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seekr I used <a class=p-url rel=me href="https://twitter.com/aaronpk">aaron</a> on the hcard page I created - still get to Aaron's page.
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seekr Is that what we want? I thought maybe it would go to a login prompt or some such.
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KartikPrabhu yes because you are using aaronpk's twitter account

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seekr true - I'm just playing make-believe using a real person
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AngeloGladding won't get you very far
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seekr How does the web server know who I am?
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KartikPrabhu i don't understand. what is the gial here?

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seekr I'm just trying to follow what AngeloGladding is trying to teach me.
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KartikPrabhu seekr: it will simply redirect you to your own Twitter

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KartikPrabhu and use Twitter's login

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seekr Well, maybe if I just read through all those pages it will all become clear to me - now it's all a muddle.
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AngeloGladding try adding an email <a class=u-email href=mailto:foo@bar.com>foo@bar.com</a>
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seekr ok
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AngeloGladding and i'm sorry i gave you bad code to begin with
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AngeloGladding u-url instead of p-url
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seekr that's what I started to do, tantek
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AngeloGladding seekr if you see the second example on http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card you'll have a better guide
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seekr I updated http://hcard.webruary.org/ - but the link just opens a Thunderbird window as it would do if I didn't use the "u-email" think, right?
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AngeloGladding if you incorporate an email in your h-card you'll be able to use it with indieauth
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KartikPrabhu seekr: AngeloGladding: what is the goal here? to set up web-login?

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AngeloGladding i believe "Become a citizen of the IndieWeb"
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KartikPrabhu AngeloGladding: too general. what's the immediate goal?

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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes. which is why I am trying to get to what the hiccup is at the moment

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seekr We can't fault that document yet - I've only skimmed it, trying to follow the example - now reading the microformats.org page
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KartikPrabhu seekr: the aim for that page is to give a step by step guide. If it is failing then it should be improved

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seekr What's expanding the HTML to JSON? The server, I suppose.
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KartikPrabhu seekr: I think you are trying to do too much here

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seekr I'm only trying to understand what's going on.
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KartikPrabhu a microformats parser parses the HTML to get "data" from it

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seekr Seems that these "p-" things are special reserved classes that the server knows about without the need for them to be explicitly defined.
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seekr I'm trying to understand what AngeloGladding is trying to lead me toward understanding, I think, tantek.
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AngeloGladding http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card is a standard defining the h-card classes
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AngeloGladding it gives meaning to u-url and p-name
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KartikPrabhu I am very very confused

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AngeloGladding seekr entered the chat by advertising having been to a w3c conf in '95
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seekr me too, KartikPrabhu, but I think if you keep asking questions, it just adds to the communications burden between me and AngeloGladding. I hope you understand that much. :)
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AngeloGladding so i've made a few assumptions
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AngeloGladding sorry
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seekr right W3 '95
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KartikPrabhu seekr: ok I'll stop

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seekr W3C was one of the sponsors, though
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seekr thanks, KartikPrabhu
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seekr It's looking to me as if one would want to create a page for visitors to one's site containing the hCard - it gets populated with standard elements, each of which is represented by a link that takes someone somewhere appropriate.
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seekr I can do all the above without these "p-" things, so there's something I'm still missing - guess they make it all easier somehow.
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AngeloGladding seekr tantek and kartikprabhu are admins here and they are guiding you in a more feature focused manner
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AngeloGladding i'm skipping steps
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seekr I tend to work from basic concepts upwards.
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KartikPrabhu AngeloGladding: I am not an admin, but I am also not a programmer

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AngeloGladding explicitly defining what the data on your HTML page *means* allows consuming tools/services to do something with the data
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seekr I like to understand the mechanism as part of groking what functions are being provided.
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seekr So is something other than sentient critters looking at this stuff? Like search engines, maybe?
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KartikPrabhu seekr: all of this depends on what you wish to do with your website. The rel-me stuff is so that you can login using indieauth into other websites for example the indieweb wiki

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seekr That login bit is what's throwing me - that word indicates this is something I do for my benefit, rather than that of visitors to my site.
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KartikPrabhu seekr: microformats are parsed for a lot of reasons. Including indieauth, or other websites to display comments and responses from external sites

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KartikPrabhu seekr: yes, it is for your benefit. to use your website as your primary identity

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seekr Well, I think I'd be best off to take up this subject later on, poking through the pages, y'all have kindly provided me, and I expect it will all become clear. Thanks for providing the incentive!
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AngeloGladding so if you successfully create an h-card with a rel=me to an external service you can use your website to log in to the indieweb wiki
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AngeloGladding that's a first step
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AngeloGladding it gives you immediate feedback about how and why
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seekr That's not what I meant, KartikPrabhu - by "benefit" I mean that I use the page to get to a login page on a site, which I think is not what this thing is for.
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AngeloGladding https://indieweb.org/Special:UserLogin
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seekr OK - that's enough info for now. I will look at this stuff in the next few days, and will be able to have a more intelligent chat with you folks.
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AngeloGladding that's the indieweb wiki's login form
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AngeloGladding if you set up your website properly you can use "http://webruary.org/" to log in to that site
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seekr I'll capture all these URLs and will poke through the pages they represent ASAP. Thanks again.
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seekr to which site?
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AngeloGladding to log in to that wiki
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AngeloGladding or any other site that supports "indieauth"
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AngeloGladding there are various services out there that allow you to log in to their site using your site
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seekr not sure why I'd want to do so, rather than just using a bookmark or some such, but, as I said, I'm sure it will all become clear once I've had a chance to read and think and experiment
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AngeloGladding wyeah
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seekr I appreciate the gracious welcome, and do plan to see what I can do to see if I can become part of this family.
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AngeloGladding read a bit, come back and someone will try to answer your question(s)
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AngeloGladding good luck
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AngeloGladding sorry luck has nothing to do with it
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AngeloGladding :)
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seekr :) thanks again!
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petermolnar I'm starting to re-evaluate the usefullness of tagging for a post (unless it's an image post with a minor amount of text): most of the keywords are in the text anyway, and search engines index on that. If I'm looing for something, I use regexes, not tags. The only usefullness of tags are manual separation of topics, which leads me back to categories instead of tags yet again. ( Stupid me started to question my best practices a few months

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petermolnar ago and I'm finding myself in ruins, questioning nearly everything I'm doing with my site lately. )

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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: what's the difference between categories and tags?

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petermolnar category is usually titled as taxonomy whereas tags are titled folksonony

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KartikPrabhu i don't know what that means

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petermolnar for me, a post can only have one category, but manytags

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cmal getting torn to pieces in comments on LinuxFR over the fact I'm using non-sexist language. The most voted up comment so far claims my translation of an article in English is highly infidel, because I used gender-neutral forms, and « gendered pronouns in English do not exist » ↠this macho dude sure know a lot :)
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petermolnar morning

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petermolnar cmal, I'm happy to talk about the linguistics on #indiechat

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petermolnar but not here

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Loqi [indieweb] "Cool ! my #indieweb bookmarks now display target image, sounds like @medium links now display correct #opengraph image :)" by Rick Mendes on 2016-08-21 https://rmendes.net/2016/08/21/cool-my-indieweb-bookmarks-now-display-target-image-sounds-like

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@calum_ryan Next Homebrew Website Club London this week! https://indieweb.org/events/2016-08-24-homebrew-website-club http://lanyrd.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-august/ (twitter.com/_/status/767727334313033728)
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 56 minutes ago: can you confirm a venue for your HWC this week? https://indieweb.org/events/2016-08-24-homebrew-website-club#Where

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ben_thatmustbeme no can do man

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ben_thatmustbeme sorry to say

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gRegorLove Good morning, indieweb

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gRegorLove GWG: To NYC2?

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gRegorLove (Electric Boogaloo)

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@richardallenhay Godspeed departed cloud apps https://indieweb.org/site-deaths (twitter.com/_/status/767764824529002496)
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gRegorLove Yeah

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gRegorLove How many are coming so far, GWG?

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gRegorLove When is NYC2?

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gRegorLove What is NYC2?

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gRegorLove Hmm

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gRegorLove gkbrk: There's your answer page, though. ^

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gRegorLove August 27/28

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gRegorLove Who is gkbrk?

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gRegorLove Loqi does that based on /irc-people.

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gRegorLove Who is aaronpk?

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Loqi Aaron Parecki is the co-founder of IndieWebCamp https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Aaronparecki.com

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gRegorLove Yeah, he wraps <dfn> in a p-summary microformat and uses that.

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gRegorLove Alternately you can explicitly wrap text in p-summary and he'll use that.

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gRegorLove Actually, the wiki wraps the dfn, not Loqi, but you get the idea :)

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KevinMarks1 me on solid and socialwg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r0gwBneI8k&feature=youtu.be&t=1h38m41s
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KevinMarks1 !tell tantek popup HWC in Boston this wednesday, or are you on plane?
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aaronpk huh, hadn't seen this before! https://eventswrangling.wordpress.com/2016/06/14/indieweb-summit-2017-wordpress-pdh/

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KevinMarks Erasing the other two founders is a bit off

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KevinMarks Also, him not finding hwc and other iwc events may be a problem with the single serving site

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aaronpk well that was quoted from https://indieweb.org/founders

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KevinMarks Maybe the summit site could add an "event over, check upcoming ones" link at the top

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KevinMarks Right, but he chops out just the middle bit of /founders

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aaronpk I just created a new page about taglines! I added a few examples of people I found browsing through /irc-people, but feel free to add yourself if I missed you! https://indieweb.org/tagline

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Loqi [indieweb] "@RikMende I'm curious about your #readlater and #readinglist hashtags. Do you revisit your site with a search for those and change them after you've read" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-08-22 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/rikmende-im-curious-about-your-readlater-and-readinglist-hashtags-do

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@TechLifeWeb GoldenCheetah Is An Open Source, Private Dashboard for Your Fitness Data | Haven't looked at this closely #indieweb http://lifehacker.com/goldencheetah-is-an-open-source-private-dashboard-for-1785595628 (twitter.com/_/status/767815155849699328)
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KevinMarks1 I added a "how to markup" section to tagline
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KevinMarks1 well, there's me http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkevinmarks.com
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KevinMarks1 and unmung maps atom:subtitle to p-summary
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KevinMarks1 true
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KevinMarks1 "reading your thoughts, if you write them down first" has been my tagline
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KevinMarks1 on twitter
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aaronpk and google+! https://plus.google.com/+KevinMarks/about

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KevinMarks1 though it's in the bio field
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KevinMarks1 wow, g+ now has obfuscated classes
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KevinMarks1 people use note in h-card for it too
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KevinMarks1 <div class="wna Phb"><div class="Cr">Tagline</div><div class="y4">Reading your thoughts, if you write them down first</div></div>
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KevinMarks1 I think the classes have been minified
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KevinMarks1 plindner the thing that needs fixing is the rel="me" links are intermittent depending on useragent or something
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KevinMarks1 which makes g+ less useful for indieauth
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KevinMarks1 at one point profiles had mf markup, but that was several products ago
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KevinMarks1 but breking the rel="me" on the "other profiles" bit is a pain
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KevinMarks1 aaronpk: did you work out when you got which version?
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aaronpk plindner: the main thing would be returning actual html with rel=me on the websites https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/116

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KevinMarks1 with a UA-less curl I seem to get it
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aaronpk ideally on https://plus.google.com/+KevinMarks as well, rather than https://plus.google.com/+KevinMarks/about

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KevinMarks1 ah right, that was the difference
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KevinMarks1 hm, blogger does still have hfeed markup by default, yay
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KevinMarks1 though we shoudl add some backcompat to support title and description mapping to p-name and p-summary
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KevinMarks1 ah, no they aren't inside the hfeed
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KevinMarks1 so it's a blank hfeed with impled name on blogger
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KevinMarks1 though the h-entry is still there
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KevinMarks1 and wordpress has hfeed and some useful default markup, so https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/pull/74
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KevinMarks1 see the h-feed here: http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fma.tt&html=&pretty=on
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KevinMarks1 !tell kylewm this should improve woodwind's h-feeds for wordpress: https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/pull/74
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KevinMarks1 https://wordpress.com/next/ is fun for this
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KevinMarks1 similarly https://www.blogger.com/next-blog?navBar=true&blogID=3200930
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KevinMarks1 that was a fun yakshave
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aaronpk add it to https://indieweb.org/events when you can!

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KevinMarks Tantek, do you remember why hfeed/hAtom has no feed level properties except category?

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KevinMarks Looks like it was split into blog-description and never iterated on

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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: what feed level properties would you like?

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KevinMarks The equivalent of p-name and p-summary and maybe author, though that seems to be less common in the wild

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KevinMarks We have them in h-feed

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KevinMarks And p-author and p-photo maybe

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KevinMarks Aaron talking about taglines made me go back and look

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Loqi [indieweb] "A New Reading Post-type for Bookmarking and Reading Workflow" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-08-22 http://boffosocko.com/2016/08/22/a-new-reading-post-type-for-bookmarking-and-reading-workflow/

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Loqi [indieweb] "A New Reading Post-type for Bookmarking and Reading Workflow" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-08-22 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/a-new-reading-post-type-for-bookmarking-and-reading-workflow-e7c7f6bac2dc?source=rss----12b80d28f892---4

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Loqi [indienews] New post: "A New Reading Post-type for Bookmarking and Reading Workflow" http://boffosocko.com/2016/08/22/a-new-reading-post-type-for-bookmarking-and-reading-workflow/

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Loqi [indieweb] ""A New Reading Post-type for Bookmarking and Reading Workflow" in Boffo Socko" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-08-22 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/a-new-reading-post-type-for-bookmarking-and-reading-workflow-e7c7f6bac2dc?source=rss-f9e3747f5480------2

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@ChrisAldrich A New Reading Post-type for Bookmarking and Reading Workflow http://boffosocko.com/2016/08/22/a-new-reading-post-type-for-bookmarking-and-reading-workflow/ #indieweb https://twitter.com/ChrisAldrich/status/767866640738377729/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/767866640738377729)
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