#indieweb 2016-08-24

2016-08-24 UTC
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@kevinmarks @bthdonohue @InstapaperHelp you're invited to http://2016.indieweb.org/nyc2 this weekend to hack on import/export with the #indieweb crew (twitter.com/_/status/768243222279749632)
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GWG Evening
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tantek good morning #indieweb!
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@GlennRicePro @ChrisAldrich Have you tried Wallabag? I moved to it almost a year ago and never looked back. Works great. #indieweb #instapaper (twitter.com/_/status/768400646496059392)
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tantek what is Wallabag?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Wallabag" yet. Would you like to create it?
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Loqi [indieweb] "What if I told you, what @anildash lost* the #indieweb has rebuilt? Find it @IndieWebCamp NYC this weekend: http://2016.indieweb.org/nyc2 And join us in rebuilding the independent web. * http://indieweb.org/lost_infrastructure" on 2016-08-24 http://tantek.com/2016/237/t1/indieweb-rebuilt-it-join-us
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@t What if I told you, what @anildash lost* the #indieweb has rebuilt? Find it @IndieWebCamp NYC this weekend: http://tantek.com/2016/237/t1/indieweb-rebuilt-it-join-us (twitter.com/_/status/768406303756591104)
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@oliverg .@SwieSchnubb @ennolenze Oder die Indieweb-Leute um @kevinmarks +1 ,) (twitter.com/_/status/768406943589281792)
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@matunixe Ceci est un test de syndication vers Twitter. #Indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/768409705026818048)
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@t Thanks @petermolnar for the memeing. #lost #infrastructure #socialmedia #indieweb #rebuilt… http://tantek.com/2016/237/t2/lost-infrastructure-socialmedia-indieweb https://twitter.com/t/status/768410197853212672/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/768410197853212672)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Thanks @petermolnar for the memeing. #lost #infrastructure #socialmedia #indieweb #rebuilt #harder #better #stronger #faster (Working on making that #easier instead of harder)" on 2016-08-24 http://tantek.com/2016/237/t2/lost-infrastructure-socialmedia-indieweb
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@matunixe Actually testing syndication with Twitter. Huge thanks to @cmal_PP who help me to deal with @withknown. #Indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/768412251606900736)
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@PetraGregorova Sadly I can’t make it to @IndieWebCamp NYC this weekend but if you can, you can find out more about it at http://tantek.com/2016/237/t1/indieweb-rebuilt-it-join-us (twitter.com/_/status/768435828909420544)
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@PetraGregorova Sadly I can’t make it to @IndieWebCamp NYC this weekend but if you can, you can find out more about it at http://2016.indieweb.org/nyc2 (twitter.com/_/status/768436578590920705)
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Loqi [indieweb] "What Is the Decentralized Web? 24 Experts Break it Down" by Mackenzie Polzin on 2016-08-24 http://infospace.ischool.syr.edu/2016/08/24/decentralized-web-experts/
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tantek ^^^ interesting /article /repost example
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tantek http://infospace.ischool.syr.edu/2016/08/24/decentralized-web-experts/#dd_start in particular:
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Loqi [Mackenzie Polzin] What Is the Decentralized Web? 24 Experts Break it Down
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tantek "This article is reposted from “What Is the Decentralized Web? 24 Experts Break it Down” written by 2U intern and Syracuse University iSchool Senior Mackenzie Polzin."
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Loqi [indieweb] "What Is the Decentralized Web? 24 Experts Break it Down" by Mackenzie Polzin on 2016-08-24 http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ischoolsu/infospace/~3/gwoIHgH-7xk/
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rhiaro Aw damnit, that person contacted me three times to answer that 'what is decentralised web' question and I never replied :p
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rhiaro I could have been listed as an "expert"
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@uranther @eksith check out @indiewebcamp and that's exactly the idea - you own your content. (twitter.com/_/status/768444027796656128)
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rhiaro lols
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@eksith @uranther @indiewebcamp This is excellent! (twitter.com/_/status/768444233502130177)
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@uranther @eksith @indiewebcamp Still working on my making my website the awesome. I believe I can login with IndieAuth now which is cool (twitter.com/_/status/768444975260598272)
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tantek very cool
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@kongaloosh Are there any #indieweb people in #yeg? Are there any local meetups? (http://kongaloosh.com/e/2016/8/24/are-there-any-indieweb-people-in-yeg-are-there-any-local-meetups) (twitter.com/_/status/768453524891906048)
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Kongaloosh ^ that
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tantek where is yeg?
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Kongaloosh YEG is Edmonton, Alberta
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Kongaloosh Canadian often use airport codes
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sneanias Because obviously, Kongaloosh
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sneanias Kongaloosh: Je Maple Leafs best team
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Kongaloosh sneanias: I thought we agreed it was the orcas?
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sneanias What about the Horny Devils?
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GWG I often use airport codes too
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aaronpk PDX does too :)
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@cmal_PP This is an #Indieweb test. (twitter.com/_/status/768466987513151488)
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Kongaloosh sneanias: you're right, they're the best.
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Kongaloosh GWG, aaronpk: I find it's the best way since it condenses names into three letters.
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GWG Kongaloosh: I teach a lesson on airport codes regularly. When I was a kid and used to take trips, the only thing to read on the plane was the timetable...back when they had printed ones.
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Kongaloosh GWG: Hah. personally, I read the safety cards.
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rascul heh if i used poe for this area nobody would know what i'm talking about
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Loqi rascul: ChrisAldrich left you a message 3 days, 12 hours ago: I'll take you up for keybase; I think I've been in their queue forever...
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rascul oh
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rascul !tell ChrisAldrich give me an email address to send the keybase invite to
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Kongaloosh: We all need hobbies.
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rascul normally i sleep while on a plane, otherwise i need to smoke and i can't exactly step outside to do that
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rascul although i hear it's fun to do with a parachute
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Kongaloosh rascul: or a net
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GWG rascul: Southwest used to tell people that the smoking section was on the wing.
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rascul GWG i would try that if i had a net to hang out in
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GWG rascul: I'd like to see that. It would be interesting
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rascul i prefer not flying now though, because tsa
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Kongaloosh TSA is an interesting thing. IIRC they often fail when tested.
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rascul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater
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Kongaloosh a less annoying version of this is lighting
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Kongaloosh adding lighting to parkades and making the elevators more visible from open spaces improves people's feeling of security
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Kongaloosh which I think is interesting
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rascul also helps see better to unlock the doors
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sneanias Kongaloosh: but what if I don't have an airport nearby?
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sneanias Anything near me is leftover airstrips from WWII
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rascul this halt and catch fire episode, she could just M0 in the init string and the modem wouldn't make all the noises
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tantek is totally lost, this is #Indieweb right?
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rascul not anymore
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Kongaloosh sneanias: obv you need a landingstrip in your back-yard
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rascul remembers about #indieweb-chat
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GWG We have indieweb-chat? I'm only in #indiechat
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Kongaloosh same
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tantek I think most have stuck with #indiechat because inertia which is fine. We have both
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gRegorLove I think once the Slack bridge is going both ways again, we'll move it so #chat on Slack => #indieweb-chat on IRC.
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aaronpk 👍
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cmal so if somebody has information regarding multi-user Indieauth on Known, consider me interested :)
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cmal otherwise I may as well just open an issue and talk about it there :-/
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rMdes something is strange with Known and Indiepub, when I log in to https://woodwind.xyz/ with my domain I do find the list of indie blogs I'm following
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rMdes but if I log in with my profile URL, it's considered a "new site"
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ChrisAldrich rMdes I've had that same issue too with woodwind.xyz
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Loqi ChrisAldrich: rascul left you a message 58 minutes ago: give me an email address to send the keybase invite to
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cmal maybe because Known precisely relies on Indieauth on the homepage and not on a per-user basis on the profile?
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ChrisAldrich I want to say maybe I'd seen it with something else like OwnYourGram too, but it's been a while
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rMdes cmal : are you sure your known site config is not set to "single user" ? http://imgur.com/4APqcMQ
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cmal yes I am
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rMdes might be dumb question but that toggle would make your known site behave like a 1 user site
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rMdes laright
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cmal yes but it's one a single-user site
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cmal from what I read on the issue toggling single user site would make the homepage allow the first admin found (therefore, not me on this instance) to login on IndieAuth
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cmal I want every user to be able to login via IndieAuth :)
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rMdes cmal : I just created a new user on my Known site, then I logged in to Woodwind using indieauth and configured it to use indiepub
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rMdes works fine
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rMdes it seems I now have 3 users are woodwind : my root domain, my user Rick and my second user rMdes
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cmal wait, I don't get it, you're having several users with single-user mode enabled ?
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rMdes yup
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cmal IF that's the case, what's this single-user mode about anyway?
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cmal I thought single-user meant one user, not « have as many users as you like »
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rMdes not sure but this is how my blog is configured : single user
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rMdes me too
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cmal and you can post from all users on your Known and have different silo accounts linked to each? oO
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cmal does anybody know what the difference in Known is between single-user and multi-user ?
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ChrisAldrich Is it the case that one can have a single user account that's private, but with other user accounts so they can log in and access the content, but not necessarily post?
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cmal my use-case would be more like having everyone post & share & read :)
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cmal so rMdes I have different results than you do
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rMdes cmal: Yes I can connect twitter or facebook account to my new user
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rMdes my second user can connect its own brid.gy, etc..
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cmal and indieauth.com ?
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rMdes trying now
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rMdes also look at the hint near the single user toggle : Is this a single-user site? If so, your profile information will be shown at the top of the homepage.
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cmal anyway, I'm gonna go check out the pool my neighbours assembled down in the garden #LifeInASquat :D
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cmal see you later :)
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rMdes seems like that's what this toggle does before all, if not single user, website does not load the main user jumbotron
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rMdes sounds cool ;)
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ChrisAldrich rMdes, can one syndicate from one Known site to another? Has anyone done that?
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rMdes yes
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rMdes ChrisAldrich, https://github.com/mapkyca/KnownKnown
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rMdes most up to date list of plugins for Known is here : http://docs.withknown.com/en/latest/plugins/community/
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ChrisAldrich I feel like "we" should set up a group Known site for multiple Indieweb users to contribute/syndicate to. It would be a more interesting way to dogfood Known instead of using a google user group/page for dev...
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rMdes I completely agree !!!
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ChrisAldrich rMdes: I hadn't seen that one, but knew about the list. In fact I did a PR to add something to it a few weeks back.
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rMdes would love to participate on that, using Known to document Known stuff, help each other in a way that can be searched by others in a open spot
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ChrisAldrich I think half the stuff you and I post to our known accounts are Known related.
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cmal ChrisAldrich: how about Indienews? https://news.indieweb.org/
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cmal I just opened an issue about Indieauth on multi-user Known : https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/1499
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cmal see you later peeps :)
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rMdes indienews already pick up articles/post we do IF we include the #indieweb tag on it
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ChrisAldrich I think of Indienews as a higher level of editorial content... some of what I'm talking about would dilute the signal and only be of interest to known users
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aaronpk you do have to explicitly post it to indienews, it's not just picking up the hashtag
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rMdes agree, hence I try to not use so much the indieweb tag if it's not general indieweb related and more Known in specific
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ChrisAldrich the Indiesyndicate plugin helps to do that, though I've still yet to get it working on my known site
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rMdes it's not ? hmm I found one of my post over there but never submitted anything manually to it
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aaronpk rMdes: someone else may have submitted it
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rascul what is woodwind?
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Loqi Woodwind is a minimalist open source indie reader by https://kylewm.com/photo.jpgKyle Mahan https://indieweb.org/Woodwind
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ChrisAldrich rMdes, it may be the case that someone bookmarked your post and webmentioned news.indieweb on your behalf.
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rMdes in fact I don't really grasp yet how to submit, already read the instructions a few times but some of the vocabulary confuse me
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rMdes ahh ok
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ChrisAldrich aaronpk jinx
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rMdes hmm so sending a post to indienews is just like sending a webmention ?
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gRegorLove Yep
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rMdes gosh so simple I was confused by the way it's explained, but it's probably just me
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ChrisAldrich rMdes, I had to read it 5 times to understand it, and even then...
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gRegorLove aaronpk: just noticed http://news.indieweb.org redirects to indieweb.org. Works with the https.
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rMdes what do we do if one day there is an army of trolls sending webmentions to indienews ?
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rMdes ChrisAldrich, maybe we could open a pad and reword it for newbies
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rMdes I can't do it now, but I would love to make these concept easier to grasp for new comers
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ChrisAldrich There definitely needs to be a set of instructions for Gen2
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ChrisAldrich It's on my list of things to better document for the next generation
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aaronpk gRegorLove: oops thanks
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rMdes aaronpk, what do we do if one day there is an army of trolls sending webmentions to indienews ?
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aaronpk ban them with fire
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rMdes haha sure but ain't the indienews site going to be spamed like hell ?
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Loqi nice
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bear that's when we start making Vouch solid :)
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rMdes ok now i got it :)
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rMdes the Vouch thing would be magic if it worked by domains
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rMdes so we could all "vouch" the indieweb current network of sites before the "invasion"
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ChrisAldrich We've got the daily vouch mention out of the way early today... :)
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ChrisAldrich I noticed that in the last two weeks that Disqus started using Akismet for spam...
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snarfed ChrisAldrich: "daily vouch mention" lol
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KevinMarks1 Funny, having an article on fastcompany instead of my site means missing out on webmentions
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snarfed honestly we spend a lot of time here on an ongoing basis wringing our hands with "what if spam?!"
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snarfed ...so it's worth reiterating that we have yet to see a *single* native webmention spam
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snarfed good to think about, of course, but probably not worth overthinking it long before it's an actual problem
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rMdes reassuring :)
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snarfed not to mention that existing anti-spam tools and techniques apply perfectly well to wm spam too
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rMdes what I have noticed with my twitter account is there is more & more "tease following" spam on twitter
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snarfed vouch is definitely exciting and promising! i'm just glad we don't badly need it yet
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ChrisAldrich KevinMarks, I've always wondered about a workflow for Journalists so that they could have their own content on their site, "syndicate" it to the bigger publisher that gets all the traffic, but still have a way to get all the webmention traffic sent back to them from that publisher.
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rMdes ChrisAldrich, that would need the bigger publisher to adopt some indieweb protocol right ?
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snarfed ChrisAldrich: hmm interesting. sounds like extending salmentions to implement backfeed
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ChrisAldrich having that would certainly have a lot more journalists onboarding indieweb....
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rMdes that would be so great !!
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KevinMarks1 the contracts for most of these sites say they have it exclusively
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KevinMarks1 so it's more that side that would be tricky; some will re-run a post from elsewhere, but a paid article has a different pattern to it
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ChrisAldrich It's similar to academics publishing in major journals, but it's common practice for the authors to practice samizdat and keep a copy for themselves on their own site.
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rMdes I went to google news lab Hack Hackers connect in Brussels, talked about indieweb to a few journalist in private, they where absolutely not in the mood to have their own publishing spot on the web. I was in a curious place, maybe not the best spot to talk about this
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ChrisAldrich Perhaps journalists should ask to keep a copy on their site 3-6 months after initial publication for themselves. The bigger publisher is generally going to get all the traffic anyway.
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gRegorLove The /irc-people list is a fine starting point of domains to accept news.indieweb.org posts from too
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KevinMarks1 we talked about something like that with Scott Rosenberg - having a way to post on multiple sites wiht preview of how it would look
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KevinMarks1 also odd ot see the identical tweets because the site's 'tweet this' link has default text in: https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fastcompany.com%2F3063060%2Fa-brief-history-of-the-angry-social-network&src=typd&lang=en
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KevinMarks1 the discussion wiht Scott was at Hacks hackers in SF
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gRegorLove snarfed: We could add a page "native webmention spam" with dfn "As of [date] it doesn't exist." :)
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aaronpk points out that our wiki has had 0 spam despite being mediawiki which is typically very quickly overrun with spam when it allows public registations
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snarfed gRegorLove: iswebmentionspammedyet.com with an rss feed and twitter account :P
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gRegorLove Haha
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aaronpk "days since last webmention spam"
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ChrisAldrich Additionally if the private/public piece can be overcome in a nice way, journalists could publish to their site privately, but still allow webmentions to attach, so they're getting notifications about the conversation directly to their own "hub" instead of having to rely on watching the publisher's site
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bear my ops brains cringes at the thought of posting such an invitation on a site
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snarfed ChrisAldrich++ for samizdat, great potential name for an indieweb tool/technque
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Loqi chrisaldrich has 6 karma (5 in this channel)
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bear "days since ..." being the invitation
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aaronpk hahaha
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gRegorLove Indieweb Safety and Health Administration (ISHA)
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snarfed bear++ sadly. we thought about doing a blog post for a recent pen test we did at work, but decided no for that reason :(
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Loqi bear has 162 karma (128 in this channel)
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bear yea, I squash a lot of blog posts for InfoSec reasons
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Loqi *sniff*
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snarfed "keep your head down"
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rMdes aaronpk, amazing the non-spam
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ChrisAldrich KevinMarks, did that discussion get recorded? or is it just the noterlive session you documented?
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rMdes but I guess one of the reason spam isn't just around the corner yet might be discretion of these protocols only used by really motivated people, like in this channel :)
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snarfed rMdes: yup. adoption rate is key. spammers only target platforms that give them big enough bang for their buck
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KevinMarks1 just the noterlive I think
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rMdes indeed and the day some or one of them realize there is something to tap into, maybe this day things are going to get a bit more spammy
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snarfed ChrisAldrich: the backfeed idea for journalists' syndicated copies is great! if you're interested, next step might be to survey the top N big publishers, see what system serves their comments, whether it has an API or is scrapable, and then file bridgy issue(s)
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ChrisAldrich KevinMarks, you might appreciate using a Livescribe echo pen (or something similar). It allows recording audio and exporting as .mp3 quickly. Then you could supplement your noterlive sessions with full .mp3 for those that want a deeper dive.
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rMdes the only "spam" I get from webmentions is "tease like" from company, products, brands, liking some of my tweets just to get noticed
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rMdes they do it on twitter, not aware of the indieweb protocols tied to my twitter posts
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sknebel spam? just wait until WMs become popular in Wordpress
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ChrisAldrich snarfed, you've probably destroyed all my free time for the rest of the year with that comment. ;)
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snarfed ahahaha
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ChrisAldrich snarfed: I suspect that even private posts could allow access to bridgy and that by having a rel-syndication link could allow most of the magic to happen?
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snarfed obligatory: https://xkcd.com/356/
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snarfed ChrisAldrich: wms to private posts may still be a somewhat open problem
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snarfed eg how do you do discovery?
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ChrisAldrich could the private post do a bridgy publish to notify only bridgy which then stores the url and rel-syndication?
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snarfed ChrisAldrich: sure. it'd be nice to find a way that doesn't require bridgy publish though.
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snarfed framed another way, how would purely native private post wms work? (ie btw two sites, no bridgy involved)
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rMdes always assumed private post were....private & would never get interactions backfeeded to the post
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snarfed rMdes: nah. you can comment/like non-public FB posts, right?
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ChrisAldrich the full content of the post *could* be private but with a notice of the syndication endpoints and the URL should be enough for webmentions to come back to it.
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rMdes yes, but if the private post in not sent to FB, only stay on my site, there would be no way for brid.gy to retrieve other users sharing/commenting the link right ?
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snarfed some background: https://indieweb.org/private_posts
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miklb rMdes I wish the "tease likes" I got were brands, and not fembots
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snarfed rMdes: again, start with the pure indieweb case. for native indieweb private posts that some people can read, how can they reply/like/repost via wm? i don't think we entirely know yet
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snarfed ChrisAldrich: true! you might have the start of a proposal to add to http://indieweb.org/private_posts :P
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rMdes interesting, never thought about these use case
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aaronpk i'm still looking for someone who wants to prototype private webmentions with
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rMdes the question is also: if the post is private, even if targeted to specific private friends, how to let them know they have something to read ?
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ChrisAldrich You're killing me snarfed, but at the end of the day, this is the web I actually want instead of the one I'm stuck with right now.
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snarfed ChrisAldrich++
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miklb theres a #tagline
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rMdes one would need to be able to @mention other indieweb users to "share" the private post with them, right ,
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rMdes ?
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aaronpk we've done a few experiments so far
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snarfed rMdes: i think same way as with public posts. if they go to your site directly, they'll see the private post if they have access. if they subscribe in a reader, they'll see it if the reader supports private posts. otherwise yes, you can mention them (which wm's their home page)
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aaronpk if I send a webmention to your home page but the source URL is private, then you need to know how to authenticate to it in order to fetch the content to process the webmention
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rMdes what if the reader support private post but that subscriber is not on the list of "friends" ? he would simply not see it ?
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/m/4ixpKU4a.jpg
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aaronpk one thing at a time :)
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rMdes aaronpk, clearer now, thanks
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snarfed rMdes: many of these are open questions. feel free to propose ideas on http://indieweb.org/private_posts#IndieWeb_Examples !
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aaronpk definitely add these questions to the wiki page!
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snarfed aaronpk: afaik we haven't done much on the inverse yet, right? eg public wm (eg a reply) to a private post
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rMdes so auth is a precondition to read private posts
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snarfed yes, but how that auth works is still pretty open and site-specific
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ChrisAldrich Think of it from a network theory approach: the URLs are nodes and the edges are rel-syndications to other URLs. As long as some central hub can see or be notified about where all the nodes and edges are, the communication system should be operable. If you hide either of the nodes or the edges, you'll have problems.
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aaronpk right. there's a dozen ways it *could* work, and we won't know which is best/easiest until we try
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rMdes if you need someone to experiment on some private post, count me in !
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aaronpk one of the ways we tried a while ago was by sending encrypted messages in public
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ChrisAldrich the issue becomes salmentions for really huge networks as the number of nodes expands exponentially.
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gRegorLove aaronpk: I'm interested in prototyping private wm
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rMdes aaronpk, encrypted msg in public that only specific "friends" with the pgp key would decrypt and read ?
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aaronpk https://aaronparecki.com/2014/02/26/14/gpg
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] @sandeepshetty Here's an experiment: -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: GnuPG v1 hQEMA5a2Qi/3GPL9AQf/UPDRTBjkCvN8eJPSpcuqsw3bu7tBL5NtwcqArRH3PGiG E+iEigjZDzsvZSUGEcJPPQFeveyFKzkrtAhtImFxGoZfHwLizetJIr3X8AUFO4+B lMCQQijUGFDe0rc1FbYHCZFsrV2jjgtvpO...
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aaronpk haha thanks loqi
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snarfed ChrisAldrich: huh. for your syndication example? not really. i don't really see that the number of places i syndicate posts to would expand exponentially
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Loqi nice
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snarfed (key point is that your graph is just for a single original post and its syndicated copies, *not* a graph across multiple posts or people)
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rMdes using keybase, ohhh that's neat
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aaronpk gRegorLove: let's schedule a private webmentionathon!
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aaronpk rMdes: only "using" keybase in that it made all the gpg stuff easier
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rMdes i can imagine
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ChrisAldrich snarfed: I was thinking about the bigger case of multiple posts, people, and connected cross conversations.
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snarfed ChrisAldrich: sure, but indieweb protocols/techniques don't currently require a central hub for the graph, or to traverse it too deeply
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rMdes aaronpk, was keybase also used to encrypt the post ?
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snarfed salmentions are the only time we go even more than one hop afaik
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rMdes or just to deliver it to "keybase friends" ?
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aaronpk rMdes: yes, i used the keybase client to encrypt the post, but it's just a GPG tool at that point
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aaronpk everything else was normal webmention flow
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rMdes ok, very nice
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ChrisAldrich snarfed: I think you're right, and it's likely the reason that not many have salmentions yet.
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aaronpk to be clear, i don't think this is a very good solution, but we tried it
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rMdes what is salmentions ?
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Loqi Salmentions are a protocol extension to Webmention to propagate comments and other interactions upstream by sending a webmention from a response to the original post when the response itself receives a response (comment, like, etc.) https://indieweb.org/Salmentions
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rMdes geez that's a hell of chunk of info to digest :)
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snarfed yup. salmentions may be the most complicated thing we've come up with so far
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snarfed (still not as complicated as salmon though! :P)
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rMdes so in short salmentions allow to keep track of response to response from an original webmentions ? correct ?
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snarfed right. they let the propagate upstream. hence salmon :P
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rMdes don't laugh at me, but I was thinking a few month back, who the hell found that name ?
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rMdes it stayed mysterious to me until now :)
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rMdes but before having salmentions right, we still need to be able to thread response/comments correctly right ?
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rMdes otherwise the response to response + the usual webmentions + the native comments will look like a mess, correct ?
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snarfed rMdes: http://www.salmon-protocol.org/ (enjoy :P)
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gRegorLove nice-to-have, but not a requirement
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snarfed rMdes: yes. there's info on threading on the wiki, but so far it's generally been implemented per site
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snarfed (you indicate that a reply is replying to an existing comment with u-in-reply-to that comment)
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aaronpk you don't need to support threading to support salmention
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rMdes okey got it now
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snarfed (also https://snarfed.org/2012-07-14_salmon_for_facebook_twitter_and_google_plus , related project of mine before i discovered the indieweb)
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Salmon for Facebook, Twitter, and Google+
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rMdes so threading is more for the sake of following the convo from usual webmentions
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rMdes I remember those years, when Disqus landed, then LiveFyre and others; thinking to unify comments, while the only thing they did was to privatize them
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rMdes damned, you guys/gals are busy on this since a while !! congrats for driving the boat this long, it's amazing !
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ChrisAldrich rMdes: If you know (or can remember) all the prior URLs in a conversation, you can add them all in one of your Known posts to which is essentially doing salmention manually.
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rMdes that can be handy for replying to many people on the same convo on twitter
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rMdes taking all the url's and replying only once to all of them with all the space one need
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snarfed my low tech approach when i post a threaded reply is to u-in-reply-to both the parent comment and the original post
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gRegorLove Interesting. adactio has a comment from storify.com https://adactio.com/journal/11102#comment36611
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Loqi [Jeremy Keith] Why do pull quotes exist on the web?
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gRegorLove Wonder if that was manual or how it got there.
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ChrisAldrich I also occasionally do what snarf just mentioned as notifying all the interstitial pieces seems overkill and generally they all link back to the original anyway.
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rMdes gRegorLove, seems like Adam Banks embedded tweet on the storify made this
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gRegorLove Right, but storify doesn't send wm
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gRegorLove Someone might have used the manual form on the post.
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rMdes that's what I was going to reply, hehe
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cmal re
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miklb heh, jekyll developers working on the GUI are confused by the concept of a note and explicitly not having a title
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[barryf] We're working on our RSVP markup so we can both RSVP to the events.
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Loqi [barryf]: tantek left you a message on 2016-06-15 at 4:31pm UTC: forgot to mention at HWC London - MozFest is coming up (once again in Ravensbourne), submit session/speaking proposals: https://mozillafestival.org/proposals ASAP!
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ChrisAldrich AngeloGladding You're coming to HWC tonight, right? I'm hoping to make all/part of quiet writing, but will definitely be there for the meeting proper.
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snarfed barryf++
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Loqi barryf has 2 karma
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@calum_ryan August HWC London with @barryf #indieweb https://twitter.com/calum_ryan/status/768511228817838080/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/768511228817838080)
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barryf Thanks snarfed
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barryf I think calumryan is also almost there with his RSVPs.
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barryf We now also have calumryan's indie event page for HWC London. Not many attendees (yet) but we're getting there!
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voxpelli miklb: too bad both Jekyll and Wordpress are making API-driven editors, but none of them building them on a standard or otherwise collaborating :)
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Loqi voxpelli: miklb left you a message 19 hours, 51 minutes ago: just starting to look this over, wonder if it could be useful for micropub at some point https://jekyll.github.io/jekyll-admin/
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miklb voxpelli truth
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voxpelli Decoupling of editor and front end tools is a major win of Micropub
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miklb I dropped a link to the wiki page on micropub in a issue thread, maybe it will catch someone's eye
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@pumpkiny “The lost infrastructure of social media.” by @anildash https://medium.com/@anildash/the-lost-infrastructure-of-social-media-d2b95662ccd3#.gx1gmp2tf x-ref #indieweb #openweb (twitter.com/_/status/768518874409021440)
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snarfed voxpelli miklb fwiw there are a handful of editor <-> server posting APIs that are ~10y old, from the initial blogging era
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snarfed metaweblog, wp's xml-rpc thing, atom, etc
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snarfed micropub is awesome! but the decoupling part isn't new
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miklb I'm familiar with them, yes
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AngeloGladding ChrisAldrich I'll be there extra early today. See you later.
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cmal what is hosting?
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Loqi Web hosting can be the primary regular cost in maintaining an IndieWeb site; this page lists several options from free on up depending on your publishing needs, like a static, shared, private, or dedicated server https://indieweb.org/hosting
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miklb WP's bastardization all but crushed any adherence to a standard IMO
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tantek miklb which?
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tantek snarfed, indeed, there are a bunch of key new things, like use of Oauth instead of user/pass
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miklb it's been a while since I've delved into it, but they don't adhere to any standards in xml-rpc.
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snarfed miklb: not true. WP actually supports (supported) a number of those old standards
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snarfed they're gradually phasing them out now though, since most of them are dying/dead and often insecure
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miklb supported but required hacks to work. Ask Daniel Jalkuit and MarsEdit
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snarfed maybe! i've used a few of the standards WP supports, though, and they've worked fine
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cmal > owning the URLs
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tantek miklb - not necessarily WP's fault. MetaWeblog was never properly specified
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tantek hence why I cited the Wikipedia page
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snarfed obligatory: https://xkcd.com/927/
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cmal I guess that's a weird argument regarding self-hosting when in reality we don't own anything and root DNS can decide we don't have a domain anymore for whichever reason (political, financial)
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tantek when you have a crappy standard, you get non-interop, implementation specific hacks, interop one implementation at a time etc.
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tantek snarfed, surprisingly this is an area where nearly all options died
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snarfed tantek: true!
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tantek so now there's one "solid" choice, Micropub
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snarfed cmal: yup. often discussed here. self-hosting everything yourself, down to the datacenter, physical machine, power, cooling, etc is impractical
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tantek actually incubated, interoperably implemented, specified in enough detail to be a W3C Candidate Recommendation
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tantek that's a pretty big deal
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tantek Micropub has more implementations than Atompub ever did
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snarfed hence we don't emphasize self-hosting everything, just starting with the domain
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cmal snarfed: I guess it can be seen as different approaches to the same problem
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miklb atompub was difficult to implement
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tantek cmal, how deep do you want to go?
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tantek going to make your own hardware? asics?
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miklb we tried adding that to Habari, but finding clients that supported was difficult
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snarfed mmm diminishing return licious
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tantek miklb yup. because it was specified first, implemented later
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cmal but I feel like the "web hosting" page might be giving just a little bit too much importance to URLs
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tantek really should not have ever been an IETF RFC
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tantek Atompub had rough consensus but failed "running code"
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cmal tantek: collaboratively, sure, in the meantime self-hosting is already a step closer
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cmal self-hosting with only free sotware is yet another step, and having a cooperatively-run ISP (we have a bunch of them in France) is even better
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cmal (I was just surprised not to find a page regarding self-hosting on the wiki and then seeing a very poor argument *against* it on "web hosting")
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snarfed cmal: different people/groups have different goals. here specifically we focus on owning your content more than aggressive self-hosting.
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snarfed KevinMarks++ for contributing to bridgy! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/pull/695
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Loqi kevinmarks has 245 karma (192 in this channel)
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cmal snarfed: I'm not proposing any "aggressiveness" (such as removing information about VPS providers or anything), but maybe I'll try and add something about self-hosting somewhere
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snarfed cmal: definitely!
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snarfed (we generally avoid politics and ideology here, but useful information like that is great!)
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cmal do you think it would make sense to break the "web hosting" page into : hosting (list of hosting possibilities : dedicated, VPS, self-hosted) and web hosting (with information about nginx/others, and shared hosting solutions)
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cmal I feel like it's confusing to have both on the same page
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singpolyma snarfed: haha. indieweb *is* an ideology ;)
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Loqi hehe
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snarfed singpolyma: lol. true! ok we try to avoid *other* politics/ideology. https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct#Respect
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aaronpk cmal: we explicitly start with owning your domain, and leave out the things underneath it. there are plenty of other groups working on alternatives to DNS and the other underlying bits, that's just not something that indieweb focuses on.
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tantek cmal *definitely* please document the kind of self-hosting you're talking about
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tantek it sounds like another way to increase independence
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tantek but yeah, we punt on DNS replacements (for now) because they tend to be non-practical / academic / experimental (namecoin etc. type stuff)
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tantek (also, too plumbing centric a distraction, and that's explicitly a non-priority in comparison to UX)
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tantek per /principles
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cmal tantek: for once, I was not ranting about DNS today, I was just surprised to see what appeared to be an argument AGAINST self-hosting on the wiki (like « meh, nobody cares because you own the URL ») :)
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tantek to be clear, there are other groups working on replacing DNS, and we're ok with that
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aaronpk cmal: more like as long as you own the URL you can move your backend hosting as needed
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snarfed aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 1104 karma (423 in this channel)
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cmal so nobody sees any problem with splitting web hosting into seperate hosting and web hosting pages ?
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tantek the assumption is that such groups will have to have some sort of interop / transition strategy, so we can "not worry about" that layer for now
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cmal tantek: that's a fair assumption ;)
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cmal also I would move personal cloud on a dedicated page (as you can setup one on a VPS, dedicated, at home… so it's independant from the hosting provided)
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aaronpk what is a personal cloud?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "personal cloud" yet. Would you like to create it?
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cmal http://indieweb.org/hosting#Personal_Clouds
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KevinMarks1 for some thinking on that, see my svgur.com/dweb demo
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KevinMarks1 (on ways round DNS/domain dependency)
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aaronpk cmal: it looks like that section is describing physical hardware you have at home?
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aaronpk rather than something like owncloud
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cmal I don't know all the links but Cozy Sandstorm and ArkOS are all software solution
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cmal the introduction is introducing computing boards like Raspberry Pi etc… but I don't really see why (although I don't find that totally irrelevant)
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KevinMarks1 https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/331851452953796608
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@kevinmarks #iiw “Personal Cloud” makes me think of Eeyore @dsearls https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJr5I2QCIAAQrLl.png (twitter.com/_/status/331851452953796608)
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aaronpk lol
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KevinMarks1 https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/331851452953796608
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@kevinmarks #iiw “Personal Cloud” makes me think of Eeyore @dsearls https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJr5I2QCIAAQrLl.png (twitter.com/_/status/331851452953796608)
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cmal I mean there is a trend of people using such devices to self-host at home (even with outages on batteries) for their low consumption profile
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cmal (it's definitely a thing called The Internet Brick in France)
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KevinMarks1 er https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/331852328774815744
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@kevinmarks #iiw another “Personal Cloud” advocate - Pigpen from Peanuts @dsearls https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJr5707CUAA9Ju1.png (twitter.com/_/status/331852328774815744)
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cmal but apart from this use-case I know many people using a VPS somewhere with a "personal cloud" on it
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cmal (like YUNoHost, etc…)
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KevinMarks1 isn't that what Johannes was working on before?
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aaronpk i'd say make a page for personal cloud, and then leave the stuff on web hosting that talks about hosting on physical hardware at home
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cmal so you don't think it's worth making a difference between web hosting and ANYTHING-ELSE hosting? (especially on a page called web hosting)
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aaronpk i don't understand the question
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cmal well I think having information about VPS, dedicated and self-hosting, and PAAS on a page called "web hosting" is really confusing
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aaronpk the goal of the web hosting page is to provide options for how to host a website
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cmal web hosting should cover issues related to hosting web services only, which is usually decoupled from the hosting perspectives
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KevinMarks1 no, those are choices on ways to host a website, thats OK
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cmal ok :)
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aaronpk what are web services?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "web services" yet. Would you like to create it?
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KevinMarks1 hosting other aspects of a domain may be worth separate pages, but they end being connected
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cmal sure, it just sounded logical to me for web hosting to be (semantically-speaking) a sub-issue of "hosting" in general, and having "web hosting" have two categories : 1. Setting up a webserver on your server 2. Shared hosting / custom domain silo / etc.
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cmal but I guess we come from different backgrounds and we have very different approaches to the question :)
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aaronpk just keep in mind the focus and scope of indieweb
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aaronpk it's not meant to be a wikipedia of everything about the internet
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tantek stay away from "web services" please
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tantek or rather
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cmal what is web services?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "web services" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is WS-deathstar?
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Loqi For reference: WS-Deathstar [1][2][3][4][5], e.g.: https://indieweb.org/WS_Deathstar
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tantek web services are /WS_Deathstar
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GWG tantek, I was thinking about this weekend
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Loqi ok
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tantek GWG when do you get into town?
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GWG tantek, I live in NYC.
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tantek heh
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GWG Admittedly, people in Queens often refer to Manhattan as 'the city'
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tantek that's what I thought
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tantek same with Brooklyn vs. "the city"
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GWG Yes, but they have better subway coverage
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GWG I have been trying to think of which project I can work on for Hack Day.
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tantek GWG, I have a feeling we will have LOTS of new people this weekend
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tantek that is, a very high % of first time IWC participants
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GWG I am excited to help them.
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tantek and that you and me will need to very focused on helping others
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tantek I hope that is ok
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tantek we may not necessarily get a lot done on our own sites
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GWG I am fine with that.
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GWG Other people inspire me.
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tantek even though that's the intent of IWC, as co-organizers, we have an obligation to empower first time participants
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tantek same
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tantek the teacher often learns more than the student
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GWG I won't complain if I can inspire some WordPress users, but I am otherwise platform agnostic
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tantek I think there will be a very high demand for WordPress help
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tantek you may need to help guide a whole set of WordPress folks
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GWG I will enjoy that doubly. I could use the feedback.
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tantek I think you will have lots of feedback, but on very early / rudimentary things
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tantek like all the rel=me feedback I tried to provide from IWC SF
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cmal also, would it be possible maybe to get https://fr.indieweb.org as a different wiki or should we proceed with appending "-fr" after page names?
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tantek subdomains--
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Loqi subdomains has -3 karma (-1 in this channel)
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tantek cmal - it's a misuse of subdomains
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tantek since there's no need for a separate CORS context
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GWG tantek, at The Summit I deployed big changes there and refined them several times after in response to feedback.
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tantek even the Wikipedia folks figured this out (but too late)
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tantek GWG - great - that will be very helpful
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tantek I think getting people up & running with /Getting_Started /building_blocks and /IndieMark will be key
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GWG tantek, maybe I should ask you to try it.
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cmal so you think we should have all articles live in the same namespaces, using english language as slugs and appending language code ?
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tantek cmal yes that's what we're doing now
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cmal but what about per-language slugs?
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tantek https://indieweb.org/#Translations
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tantek cmal - makes it harder for updating links and porting updates
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tantek if you have to remember to change page slugs too everytime you copy paste from updated English pages
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tantek https://indieweb.org/Main_Page-fr could definitely use an update!
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cmal so could we at least maybe have fr.indieweb.org serving 301s to indieweb.org and fr.indieweb.org/ 301 to indieweb.org/Main Page-fr ?
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cmal would that be bad?
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cmal I'll see what I can do about updating the content there :)
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GWG tantek, I created a blank WordPress site, installed only Indieweb plugins, and found problems myself
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tantek GWG++
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Loqi gwg has 180 karma (166 in this channel)
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tantek testing++
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Loqi testing has 18 karma (16 in this channel)
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GWG Which worries me. I only used 'stable' versions.
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ChrisAldrich GWG: I've set up a few test sites in the last month and indiewebified from scratch to improve the WordPress documentation. I have a few knucklehead tweaks to file, but they're unlikely to be noticed by many.
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GWG Chrisaldrich, I am going to move in into my often broken experimental plugins to work on some solutions to port.
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m_b hello
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ChrisAldrich Good afternoon m_b!
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ChrisAldrich GWG: I started setting up a new test site for some of your experimental plugins last night.
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ChrisAldrich I've finally decided this morning that I can't fly out to NYC2, but I'll go to DrupalCamp LA instead to stump for IWC LA.
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GWG Chrisaldrich, I am only experimenting with Webmentions and More, which combines Semantic Linkbacks.
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tantek aaronpk: how's our attendance numbers for IWC NYC2 tickets?
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ChrisAldrich GWG: that's what I had been setting up based on our convo the other day... hopefully I'll find some time to hack on it this weekend.
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ChrisAldrich wonders if any drupalheads will notice me hacking on WP over the weekend
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[barryf] Homebrew Website Club (London) has started. Hello from calumryan and me.
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gRegorLove o/ London HWC
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ChrisAldrich GWG: I've never tried it, but can/will a private WordPress post accept trackbacks/pingbacks (assuming that they're turned on)?
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GWG It should
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aaronpk one more registration came in yesterday
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aaronpk i just sat down at a cafe and am going to port those to the NYC2 page now
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tantek cool hopefully some more today
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tantek barryf++
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Loqi barryf has 3 karma
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tantek barryf be sure to take a photo! and where's tommorris ?
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aaronpk hmm /me adds to itches
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cmal I feel like web hosting > "domain for a home server" belongs in the DNS page in a "DNS on a dynamic IP" section
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cmal what dou you think? ↑
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tantek cmal - I for one am now confused about what problem you're solving
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tantek what is a home server?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "home server" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek perhaps start by documenting that?
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cmal sure, I'll create a self hosting page, but dynamic IP addresses is a somewhat separate issue, typically that could also happen on a phone which is not really a home server
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cmal (but if you think it would be more fitted there, I'll move it as soon as I've started documenting self-hosting)
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tantek cmal, "self-hosting" might be something that that there are different notions of
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KartikPrabhu do we have examples of people using these things?
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tantek i.e. even using a web hosting service, some folks consider themselves self-hosting
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tantek cmal, that's why I suggested you document "home server" first because that is more concrete
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tantek what is IndieBox?
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Loqi Indie Box is a combination software and hardware project to make it easy to run indie-style web applications on a personal server, and keep them maintained https://indieweb.org/IndieBox
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tantek ^^^ perhaps take a look there for another concrete example
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gRegorLove From a discovery point of view, /web_hosting is probably better than /DNS. If it makes sense to split off the home server / self-hosting stuff, can put a link to the "Main" page for those on /web_hosting subsections
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KartikPrabhu DNS is deep deep plumbing territory
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gRegorLove Yep
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tantek exactly
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tommorris tantek, [barryf]: sorry, completely forgot
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KartikPrabhu there probably should be another "deep" in that sentence
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gRegorLove Which if you're running a personal cloud on a RasPi, you're probably familiar with, but still
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gRegorLove KartikPrabhu: We have to go deeper. </Inception>
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: be careful of Limbo
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gRegorLove cmal: Are you running your site on a home server?
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ChrisAldrich Careful, you're all starting to sound like pure mathematicians talking about set theory...
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m_b haha, you'll terrorize newcomers
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KartikPrabhu ChrisAldrich: well I am a theoretical physicist so not that far away
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Loqi rofl
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snarfed loqi is anti-science! go figure
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KartikPrabhu well, he is a dinosaur what does he know!
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snarfed history i guess
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miklb m_b cetainly that's not the goal in this channel
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KartikPrabhu which is why all this plumbing talk should probably go to #indiweb-dev
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tantek yes
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@sdepolo Join us for #indieweb Homebrew Website club tonight https://indieweb.org/events/2016-08-24-homebrew-website-club and learn to #ownYourContent on your domain (twitter.com/_/status/768544507155492864)
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bear sadly I have to miss IWC NYC again - I have to travel to West Virginia for some meetings to deal with my dad's estate
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tantek aww sorry to hear that bear
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tantek on all accounts
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aaronpk okay! http://2016.indieweb.org/nyc2 is updated with the list of people who registered through tito now!
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Loqi IndieWebCamp NYC2 2016
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aaronpk (if they clicked the "yes show me" box)
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bear yea, normally I would just move the meeting - but this starts the whole probate process so I need to get it going
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aaronpk the list updates every hour
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KevinMarks snarfed - do you mean run appengine locally to test brid.gy?
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snarfed KevinMarks: yes
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snarfed or if you prefer you can deploy it to a prod test app id of your own. whichever you prefer
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KevinMarks I can't mint app id's any more, appengine says I've hit my quota
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KevinMarks and deleting old ones doesn't help :(
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snarfed me too :( although i have like 50 so i guess i shouldn't complain
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snarfed dev_appserver it is!
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@gRegorLove Looking forward to Homebrew Website Club tonight @WoodsCoffee. Join us! https://indieweb.org/events/2016-08-10-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/768566546020966400)
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gRegorLove Gah, wrong link
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@gRegorLove Looking forward to Homebrew Website Club tonight @WoodsCoffee. Join us! https://indieweb.org/events/2016-08-24-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/768567101011267584)
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@yuetsu @indiewebcamp @evanpro @susanlangenes Fashion sunglasses activity is only $24.99!http://xyfzq.com/coupon.html https://twitter.com/yuetsu/status/768567725077569536/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/768567725077569536)
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aaronpk oops
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plindner share once, delete everywhere
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aaronpk hacked account
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aaronpk what is freemyoauth?
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Loqi Free My OAuth is a page designed to help you find who has access to your accounts on various silos https://indieweb.org/FreeMyOAuth
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aaronpk notes this kind of thing can happen with micropub too
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aaronpk only authorize apps you trust to be able to post as you!
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KevinMarks installing bridgy locally while on the train tethered to my phone is rather slow
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snarfed KevinMarks: the pip install? i bet :P
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KevinMarks_ Hm, no dev_appserver
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snarfed ah yeah. something like 45MB iirc
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KevinMarks_ To - dev
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on A New Reading Post-type for Bookmarking and Reading Workflow by Glenn Rice" by Glenn Rice on 2016-08-24 http://boffosocko.com/2016/08/22/a-new-reading-post-type-for-bookmarking-and-reading-workflow/#comment-31781
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Loqi [indieweb] "By: Glenn Rice" by Glenn Rice on 2016-08-24 https://twitter.com/GlennRicePro/status/768400646496059392
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@sdepolo @t Any chance you can make #indieweb in SF tonight? If not, maybe in Sept.? Just checking, didn't see your RSVP yet. (twitter.com/_/status/768591774969278464)
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aaronpk just launched the teespring campaign for shirts shipping from the EU
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aaronpk probably should wait to post it until late tonight or first thing in the morning so people in that timezone see it :)
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aaronpk also: https://indieweb.org/swag
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