#indieweb 2016-08-29

2016-08-29 UTC
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Loqi [indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club LA 2016-09-07" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-08-29 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-la-2016-09-07
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Loqi [indieweb] "Is the OpenWeb/IndieWeb still for “anoraks”?" by David Mead on 2016-01-24 https://medium.com/@davidmead/is-the-openweb-indieweb-still-for-anoraks-b1377a90594d?source=rss-541c8c458bb3------2
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@t Thank you #IndieWebCamp coorganizers @dshanske @EmmaGHodge and sponsors @Dalbergtweet NLNet @Sovrnholdings & @Mozilla! (ttk.me t4j18) (twitter.com/_/status/770084791626661889)
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GWG I hate the lull post IWC
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tantek GWG, bask in it!
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tantek we participated in insightful and great discussions, worked on important things, and best of all, got to know each other and new people a bit better this weekend
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GWG tantek: I just get very inspired. I hate the inspiration to fade
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miklb scratching an itch this weekend only drives inspiration for me. Thanks for organizing the weekend to keep the momentum rolling
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GWG miklb: What itch did you scratch?
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miklb GWG u-syndication links for static notes from quill->micropub->bridgy
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miklb figured out I could save the POST response from bridgy while sending webmention as json file that Jekyll could then use to add back. All automated.
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miklb was tricky since you can't send webmention until static post is published
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Loqi [indieweb] "I would love a tool like that." by Arturo Extreme on 2016-02-23 https://medium.com/@ExtremeArturo/i-would-love-a-tool-like-that-4069547dcb25?source=rss-e4707fcfdc88------2
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Loqi [indieweb] "IndieWeb and triki supports Activity Streams 2.0" on 2016-05-21 http://donaldmcintosh.net/resource/triki-indieweb
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Loqi [indieweb] ""My first pull request" in Clint Lalonde" by clint.lalonde on 2016-06-16 https://medium.com/clint-lalonde/my-first-pull-request-305edbbe4894?source=rss-1e068d3d339b------2
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@AymanFaroukTaha Vicious Circles: collection of short stories http://www.amazon.com/Vicious-Circles-Collection-Short-Stories/dp/1491840110/ #WBTVandMe #chicago #indiedev #indiefilm #indieweb #IndieBooksBeSeen (twitter.com/_/status/770215176490651648)
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miklb now that I have note syndicated w/back feed, is there documentation on how to reply to thread conversation. Example, a tweet reply to a note and I want to reply to that & keep context to original note
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miklb isn't sure that makes sense
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[kevinmarks] Is that a salmention case?
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miklb what is salmention
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Loqi Salmentions are a protocol extension to Webmention to propagate comments and other interactions upstream by sending a webmention from a response to the original post when the response itself receives a response (comment, like, etc.) https://indieweb.org/salmention
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miklb hmm
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miklb I guess it is similar. My immediate goal would be I post a note, syndicate to Twitter. Person A replies.I want to reply but keep conversation tied together on single page
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miklb Person A replies on Twitter, I get webmention from bridgy.
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cmal what is reply context?
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Loqi A reply context is the display of what a reply post is in reply to, including linking to that original post with in-reply-to markup, showing some amount of that original post like author name, icon, summary / ellipsed content, and datetime published https://indieweb.org/reply-context
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cmal miklb: is this what you're looking for?
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cmal (along with salmentions)
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snarfed cmal: kind of, but reply contexts generally assume a standalone reply, and re-render a snippet of the original post on that reply page
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@IndieWebCampDE Der nächste Homebrew Website Club in Nürnberg findet am 14. September statt. Schau vorbei! https://indieweb.org/events/2016-09-14-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/770288395901952001)
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aaronpk what is reply chain?
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Loqi A reply chain (AKA reply thread) is a list of replies, and replies to those replies, displayed under the original post https://indieweb.org/reply-chain
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aaronpk more examples there ^^
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snarfed miklb: you're somewhat breaking new ground here. i don't know of many people who have worked on what you want in depth
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miklb right, but most of those are assuming that all of the replies originate from personal sites, yes?
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snarfed keep searching the wiki and thinking it through out loud!
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snarfed (my very low tech approach right now is to u-in-reply-to the reply *and* my original post. not nearly as far as what you want, but meh.)
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miklb speaking of reply context, I should have prefaced my last reply with aaronpk :)
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aaronpk bridgy solves it for people who reply on twitter, since bridgy acts as a stand-in microformats2 URL
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@jkphl 📅 The next Homebrew Website Club in Nuremberg will happen on September 14th. Swing by! #indieweb https://indieweb.org/events/2016-09-14-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/770288877693198336)
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aaronpk doesn't really matter whether one of the things in the chain is bridgy or not
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miklb so if I write a note on my site and posse to Twitter w/bridgy, someone replies to that, and I reply to them on Twitter it would show up under my original note?
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snarfed if i understand right, the idea would be that you have an original post, someone replies, and you want to reply to them inline on your original post, instead of in a separate reply post
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snarfed so that the chain is consolidated on your site
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snarfed right?
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miklb snarfed yes
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snarfed if so, aaronpk is right for silo reply chains, but we may not have a good pure indieweb technique
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snarfed aaronpk: if one of the replies is pure indieweb, it's its own post, on a separate page, which is what miklb is trying to avoid (maybe?)
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snarfed you could arguably do it by posting a reply inline on the original post, then saying its permalink has a fragment that identifies its specific h-entry
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snarfed maybe that's kosher with mf2 and the rest of our protocols? not sure
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snarfed these are the bridgy feature requests for that: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/681 , https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/445
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snarfed miklb: re your twitter q, yes. and also if you indie reply. (with the latter, you'd just also end up with that standalone reply post, which would also collect backfeed)
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miklb snarfed oh, so if I indie reply to the Twitter reply, it will show up under the original note and be a stand alone post?
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miklb should just try a few things and see what actually happens
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snarfed ah, no. you'd also need to u-in-reply-to the original post.
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snarfed (although if you posse it, bridgy will backfeed the posse copy to the original post :P)
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snarfed yes! experimenting is useful.
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ChrisAldrich The brid.gy documentation has some good material that isn't on the wiki: https://brid.gy/about#reply
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ChrisAldrich I do like the idea of being able to send webmentions from the traditional comments section of one's original post though. Kills some of the need for salmentions to one's own site in many cases and doesn't break up the conversational flow.
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miklb testing now. I replied to a Twitter reply and sent a webmention. Wonder if this breaks my new system :-D
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KartikPrabhu miklb: did you send a webmention to Twitter.com?
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miklb bridgy
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KartikPrabhu oh ok
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miklb wil be curious to see how many builds this triggers
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miklb hmm, seems to have added the original Tweet reply twice :-/
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miklb snarfed so I did an indie reply to the tweet reply, and sent a webmention to bridgy. The tweet reply now shows up twice on my original indie note
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miklb original note https://miklb.com/social/2016/08/28/71035/
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Loqi [Michael Bishop] Not sure what it says about my coding, but there is a special feeling doing something that doesn’t involve copying a Stack Overflow answer....
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miklb my indie reply https://miklb.com/social/2016/08/29/57963/
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Loqi [Michael Bishop] @Konzertheld perhaps. Any suggestions on where I might do that ;-)
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KartikPrabhu miklb: looks like you don't de-deduplicate multiple webmentions from the same source?
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miklb KartikPrabhu not sure what that means
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KartikPrabhu if you get multiple webmentions from the same URL, you can just upddate the older one instead of making a new one
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KartikPrabhu one use case is if the reply-post has been edited
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miklb hmm. I didn't write any of the webmention displaying code, that's all webmention.io and an existing jekyll plugin. Guess I will have to dig into that then
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snarfed miklb: whee! you're in deduping territory, another place we've only barely scratched the surface so far
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snarfed https://indieweb.org/Webmention-brainstorming#de-duplication
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@hotlinewebring @indiewebcamp Ahoy! We saw a request to join our webring, but can't find next/prev links anywhere. Only found https://indieweb.org/webring (twitter.com/_/status/770298045099499520)
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miklb lol webrings are still a thing?
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gRegorLove miklb: I think I have an example of what you were talking about before. My follow-up tweets in a thread I don't usually post in-reply-to my URL, but only the tweet URL. It does show up as a comment on the original (thanks to bridgy). http://gregorlove.com/2016/08/msswank-i-mean-its-on/
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] @MsSwank I mean, it’s on my favorites list. :] Love it; 5 stars. I’m sure you’ll enjoy it.
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gRegorLove My comment at the bottom of that ^ is here: http://gregorlove.com/2016/08/msswank-yeah-enjoyed-it-4/ note it's only in-reply-to twitter URL.
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] @MsSwank. Yeah, enjoyed it. 4 stars.
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miklb gRegorLove which twitter URL? I used the tweet I was replying to's URL, not my original post or the tweet it created
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gRegorLove s/twitter URL/URL of the tweet/
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gRegorLove It's in the reply-context
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gRegorLove RIght. Sounds like we're doing the same thing.
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gRegorLove I don't send salmentions or more complex handling, e.g. "if I reply to a URL and that URL has a syndication to twitter, also POSSE to twitter in response to that URL."
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miklb so sounds like my issue is with the code that is displaying replies. Instead of my reply, I got a second copy of the original reply
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voxpelli miklb: haven't read discussion fully – just want to say that full Salmentioning with multiple independent Jekyll installations will be pretty epic ;)
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gRegorLove The duplicate replies here? https://miklb.com/social/2016/08/28/71035/
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Loqi [Michael Bishop] Not sure what it says about my coding, but there is a special feeling doing something that doesn’t involve copying a Stack Overflow answer....
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miklb gRegorLove yes
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miklb voxpelli baby steps :)
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gRegorLove Hm. Oddly I'm not seeing it twice in the source, though?
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gRegorLove Is webmention.io JS displaying stuff you added to Jekyll?
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voxpelli miklb: we're probably fairly close, aaronpk should already support Salmention in his WebMention endpoint and I'm trying to find time to complete mine :)
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miklb gRegorLove it might be a case of the jekyll plugin pulling in via javascript/service worker && a cached file
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gRegorLove Re-phrased: is your site rendering replies in static files, and maybe the webmention.io JS is duplicating that by dynamically pulling in the replies, displaying it twice?
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miklb gRegorLove most likely
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gRegorLove Might be as easy as removing the JS then, if all wm are written to static now
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miklb gRegorLove the idea is that the JS is there for mentions between builds. It should check for the existing mention, but I need to dig into that code. I just recently implemented a workflow that quickly commits those static mentions back to the repo
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voxpelli miklb: sounds like we need Micropub WebMention submits 😏
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miklb I really want to explore saving the mentions as data files like I'm doing for the tweet object from bridgy
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miklb expand on Aaron Gustafson's static .cache file with the mention hardcoded with the markup
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gRegorLove miklb: Gotcha. I just sent a test reply from my site.
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gRegorLove Noticed your h-card doesn't have a url property
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miklb gRegorLove interesting, it is showing twice in the JS
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miklb I'll look at the h-card
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gRegorLove The note itself should probably have p-name on the same element e-content is on, so the name attribute gets parsed as the plain text of the note. http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmiklb.com%2Fsocial%2F2016%2F08%2F28%2F71035%2F
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gRegorLove Those are unrelated to the duplicate replies, though
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miklb voxpelli micropub webmention submits would definitely be a path for gh-pages sites I think
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aaronpk this is good news for remote participation! https://chrome.googleblog.com/2016/08/google-cast-is-now-built-in-to-chrome.html
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[schmarty] that is very cool!
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[schmarty] this comment at the bottom of the post got my attention: https://apis.google.com/u/0/wm/1/+DavidKing/posts/XzrHZB8KFiR
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[schmarty] "People have now casted more than 38 million times from Chrome, watching and listening to more than 50 million hours of content."
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[schmarty] am now looking for the option to disable statistics reporting on my chromecast...
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aaronpk heh
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miklb figuring out how to intertwine indie/non-indie replies is definitely going to be something I want to figure out :(
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snarfed miklb: if you accept and render wms, that should just work by default, right?
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miklb snarfed I'll be honest, I'm pretty confused at this point. I replied to a twitter reply, but it doesn't appear with the original note. Then a Twitter reply to my indie reply shows there, but also not on original note. I tested replying via Twitter, and it's not showing anywhere on my site yet
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snarfed miklb: heh, understood. lots of possible explanations on https://brid.gy/about#missing
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snarfed if not anything there, feel free to ping me!
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miklb and to confuse it even more, gRegorLove did an indie reply to original note and it is showing twice
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aaronpk indie/non-indie replies shouldn't really matter since bridgy is essentially turning the non-indie replies into indie replies. i suspect snarfed's link about "missing" is more likely an explanation
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miklb I'm not saying it's not something on my end, just something I want to solve :-)
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gRegorLove miklb: Noticed my two comments there are wrapped with id webmention-371852 and webmention-371853
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gRegorLove Not sure if those are internal IDs or from webmention.io?
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/m/4j2TqK2a.jpg
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gRegorLove Thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome, gRegorLove
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miklb gRegorLove that would need to be coming from webmention.io since I haven't rebuilt the site since those came in
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miklb I am seeing now that my Twitter reply to a Twitter reply to a indie note in-reply-to is showing up though, so that answers that question
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gRegorLove This is what webmention.io is returning: https://webmention.io/api/mentions?target=https://miklb.com/social/2016/08/28/71035/
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snarfed miklb: some of it may just be bridgy poll delay. it's not instantaneous. when in doubt, click the "Poll Now" button on your bridgy user page
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miklb snarfed yes, I see that now. thanks
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gRegorLove Looks like mine sent twice, not sure why (probably something on my end)
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gRegorLove I guess webmention.io doesn't de-dupe?
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gRegorLove Oh, one is from http, one from https
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gRegorLove So yes, that's on my end.
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gRegorLove miklb: Sent through another test and this one only sent once / appears once.
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aaronpk webmention.io should be de-duping, but it doesn't treat http/https as the same URL
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gRegorLove Right
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gRegorLove miklb: So it looks like somethings up with your JS; it's not correctly recognizing you've rendered the bridgy wm as static already
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miklb for the one from Christian, yes. I'll investigate that.
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miklb But still not sure why my indie in-repy-to to that doesn't show up on the original note. Or maybe it shouldn't ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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gRegorLove Bridgy probably didn't catch it yet.
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miklb ah
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miklb Interestingly I was able to reply via Twitter to second reply and it appears under my in-reply-to https://miklb.com/social/2016/08/29/57963/
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Loqi [Michael Bishop] @Konzertheld perhaps. Any suggestions on where I might do that ;-)
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aaronpk so, funny story
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aaronpk bridgy actually "cheats" to enable replies deep down the reply chain to show up on the original post without receivers doing anything fancy
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aaronpk if you look at the mf2 markup on bridgy replies, you'll see a bunch of in-reply-to URLs, not just the one it's replying to
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snarfed1 yuuup, low tech and intentional
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snarfed salmentions are not widely implemented yet, so i didn't want to depend on them
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aaronpk i don't think salmention solves that
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snarfed really? i thought so
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aaronpk i think it solves the notification part, but you'd still have to have special code that displays the reply chain
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aaronpk right now my site will only show a comment on a post if that comment is in reply to the one URL. a few people have written code to follow those posts and keep displaying follow-up replies.
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gRegorLove But thanks to Bridgy's cheat, I can display those chains (for Twitter)
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snarfed aaronpk: right. i figured rendering full chain (not just direct replies) was part of salmentions, even if implicitly
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snarfed no matter though
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aaronpk my point is if you're noticing things look different for bridgy replies, that's another potential reason
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snarfed true!
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voxpelli has written code to follow those posts and keep displaying follow-up replies into infinity
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aaronpk what is reply chain?
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Loqi A reply chain (AKA reply thread) is a list of replies, and replies to those replies, displayed under the original post https://indieweb.org/reply-chain
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aaronpk voxpelli: add yourself there?
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aaronpk wtf
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voxpelli aaronpk: not deployed yet, because I haven't deployed Salmentions yet and I don't think my endpoint fully understands the Bridgy way of doing it, but not sure
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aaronpk oh okay
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voxpelli well, it is deployed, but I haven't activated Salmention on any site, hmm
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voxpelli wonders if he might possibly be a Salmention receiver already
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aaronpk should think about adding salmention tests to webmention.rocks
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voxpelli has Salmention pinging in his pinging tool
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voxpelli snarfed: bridgy always mentions the top post in the reply-chain, or?
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voxpelli (I should check KevinMarks replies to see, but if they do, my reply-chain constructor will show them at the top level because it eliminates duplicates)
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voxpelli Then it might be that I also don't detect an in-reply-to unless it was specifically webmentioned, so unless a webmention is sent for each I might miss it as well
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snarfed voxpelli: it u-in-reply-tos at least the original post and the direct parent. maybe more. i'll look
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voxpelli And my reply-chain is only implemented on the standalone HTML page right now, not in the javascript – because Salmention needs
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Zegnat Will I get +v if I write something here too?
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Zegnat Hmm, maybe only in indieweb-dev then
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KevinMarks1 the indieweb plugin says "Untested with your version of WordPress" for 4.6
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KevinMarks1 (Helping Dan with a clean install of wp, so I may note things here as I go)
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KevinMarks1 the required vs recommended distinction si still a little unclear.
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KevinMarks1 wp confusing UI - 'Bulk Actions' next to Apply button needs changing to 'Install' to do anything - if you click apply with it set to 'Bulk Actions' nothing happens, but it doesnt' warn either
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KevinMarks1 'The IndieWeb plugin recommends the following plugins: ' above 'The following required plugins are currently inactive:' is wrong priority; after installing activate should be next step
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KevinMarks1 content options in post kinds is very small UI; the multiselect for kinds you wish to use is confusing - radio buttons would be better
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aaronpk Zegnat: you need to be on /irc-people
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Zegnat I should be on there
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Zegnat Yes, I am there, including my photo and my current timezone
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Loqi +1
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Zegnat I got +v on #indieweb-dev instantly.
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Zegnat That you for backing me up on this, Loqi
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Zegnat s/That/Thank/
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aaronpk hm I wonder if the nick change confused Loqi
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Zegnat Apparently /hop’ing fixes it?
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Zegnat Thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome, Zegnat
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KevinMarks1 hm, so webmentions go into the moderation queue, and mixed-content blocks showing hcard photos from http
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snarfed1 KevinMarks: see https://snarfed.org/functions.php.txt for a wordpress theme PHP snippet that auto-approves all webmentions (search for unspam_webmentions)
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snarfed1 i'll add it to the wiki
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snarfed it's obviously not packaged nicely yet. should ideally be an option in the webmention plugin
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snarfed (cc GWG)
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snarfed done: https://indieweb.org/Wordpress_Webmention_Plugin#Automatically_approving
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GWG The plugin support flag needs to be set for all Indieweb plugins. I can update the note for the ones I have privileges for
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GWG The webmention moderation issue has several solutions discussed. including previously approved sources get auto approved.
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GWG snarfed, someone commented on Bridgy in that regard.
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GWG Basically that they don't want to auto approve everyone from Twitter, for example
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aaronpk should be able to do that based on author URL
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aaronpk which isn't brid.gy
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GWG aaronpk, parsing doesn't get that till later in the process.
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aaronpk oh boy
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aaronpk runs
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GWG It's a design issue that I have been raising.
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GWG When pfefferle wrote the plugins originally, it wasn't possible.
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GWG It is now
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GWG The reason I keep going back to Webmentions is I think we aren't there yet.
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Loqi [indieweb] "My first pull request" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-08-29 http://boffosocko.com/2016/08/29/my-first-pull-request/
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GWG It needs to be workable for everyone, not just developers.
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GWG I mentioned some of the issues at NYC2
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Loqi [indieweb] "Clint, first, congratulations on your first PR!" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-08-29 https://medium.com/@chrisaldrich/clint-first-congratulations-on-your-first-pr-d3850180527d?source=rss-f9e3747f5480------2
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GWG Which is why I just tried to rebuild it using the "new hotness"
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GWG aaronpk, do you have a link for the data webmention.io passes for a verified webmention?
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aaronpk in the web hook?
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aaronpk it's this: https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/bb8628da6bf54bf85aa17d637d365b61
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aaronpk i apparently forgot to make that documentation visible when you're not logged in
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GWG I want to look into the parsing problem
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GWG Namely the fact that you might want to delegate source verification and parsing due 5.2 issues.
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aaronpk hmm, now i'm getting duplicate webmentions sent from webmention.io
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aaronpk not all of them though
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aaronpk oh... it's only when i reply to one, etf
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aaronpk oh that makes sense. i send a webmention to jeena, he receives my comment, then because of salmention, sends the webmention again
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aaronpk so this is a problem with webmention.io not de-duping it, which i could have sworn it did
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gRegorLove jeena's one back to you has switched source and target though, right?
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aaronpk is thinking out loud
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aaronpk it does? no, it's right
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gRegorLove I thought that's what salmentions was "Hey, a comment's added here, so your post is the target if you want to update with downstream comments"
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aaronpk no, to send salmentions, all you do is re-send the webmentions you sent the first time when your post is updated
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aaronpk it's up to the received to recognize comments added
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aaronpk receiver
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gRegorLove Oh, it's duplicated on jeena's site?
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aaronpk no his comment shows up twice on my site now
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aaronpk webmention.io got another webmention from him, which is correct, and it sent the web hook to my site again, which is also correct. so i think this is actually a problem with my site's handling
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aaronpk oh!!
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aaronpk this is sneaky
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aaronpk apparently jeena's posts appear on two URLs
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aaronpk https://jeena.net/comments/754 and https://jeena.net/notes/754
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Loqi [Jeena] I would pay for a (open source) software like this which I can run on my computer, most of my photos never get published but I still want auto tags on them....
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aaronpk so i actually am getting two different webmentions from two different source URLs
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aaronpk the notes/754 one has a u-url value of comments/754, so I should be de-duping on that value rather than on the source URL
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snarfed1 or at least order of precedence for de-duping
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snarfed1 http://indiewebcamp.com/de-dupe#de-duplication
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aaronpk (only de-duping that if the domains of the URLs match though, otherwise anyone could steal comments)
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snarfed yup! (also in that wiki page)
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aaronpk eh this just got hard
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snarfed reminds me of clustering
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aaronpk oh hey look at me, i prepared for this already
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aaronpk looks like right now i'm doing some de-duping for replies that are syndicated
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aaronpk so i likely just need to add more logic for the rest of these cases
tantek, KartikPrabhu, snarfed and KevinMarks1 joined the channel
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KevinMarks1 hm, should jeena add rel-canonical from the notes version to the comment?
gavinc joined the channel
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aaronpk u-url solves that already
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aaronpk plus i'd rather not have to check *another* thing
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tantek right, we already dropped all the "add rel-* in addition to what's already in the microformat markup" advice all over the place, let's not repeat that
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KevinMarks1 !tell tantek are you back for September 7th HWC? GoDaddy have offered to host again
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek Great! Please pass along my thanks to GoDaddy!
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tantek I will be in PDX for 2016-09-07 HWC
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KevinMarks1 OK
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KevinMarks1 not necessarily fro our benefit, more for search engines
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tantek and then I'll be in Lisbon for the one after that
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tantek so hopefully they're able to host again too!
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tantek and maybe get photos for Sept HWCs! :)