#indieweb 2016-09-14

2016-09-14 UTC
davidmead, AngeloGladding, KevinMarks_, wolftune, snarfed and KevinMarks joined the channel
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@libel_vox Moving my site from a legacy webserver to Jekyll appeals, but have no clue how to make indieweb's webmentions work https://indieweb.org/Jekyll (twitter.com/_/status/775884336268734464)
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gRegorLove KevinMarks_: I'm working on an option for indiewebify.me
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KevinMarks_ Let me know when I should try it
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb!
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@nueww Du bastelst an einer Website? Komm zum Homebrew Website Club @tollwerk und treffe Gleichgesinnte! #indieweb #NUEWW https://www.facebook.com/events/186058831806959/ (twitter.com/_/status/775982448140177408)
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@jkphl That's tonight! Don't forget to register @ http://indieweb.org/events/2016-09-14-homebrew-website-club and bring some BBQ stuff! :) https://twitter.com/nueww/status/775982448140177408 (twitter.com/_/status/775984571598987264)
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@notabene @cyberbaloo_ Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere https://indieweb.org/POSSE très bon concept (twitter.com/_/status/776001288324706304)
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prtksxna GWG: Sorry about the confusion on the PR
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Zegnat Did Facebook disable links to profiles? E.g. https://www.facebook.com/tantek.celik
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prtksxna Zegnat: That link works for me
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prtksxna Zegnat: But not when I am logged out
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jboy prtksxna: doesn't work for me either when logged out, but another one (e.g. https://www.facebook.com/lev.manovich) does. weird.
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cweiske private setting.
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Zegnat Yes. Lev's works for me too
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Zegnat What privacy setting makes your profile completely unavailable at its link? Makes little sense.
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cweiske tantek explained this on his blog
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cweiske http://tantek.com/2016/048/b1/going-silo-private-prefer-indieweb
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] Going Silo-Private to Prefer the IndieWeb, Leave Silo Publics, and Pioneer Privacy on the Independent Web
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jboy Returning 404 seems like the logical decision if you want to shield someone's privacy, no?
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Zegnat I don't think 404 makes sense. Now it sometimes 404s, and sometimes not, depending on if you are logged in?
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Zegnat Sounds like it needs Unauthorized or something.
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Zegnat (I was just surprised when I noticed the link to my own Facebook no longer worked.)
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Zegnat Using tantek as an example because he does link to Facebook on tantek.com under elsewhere. Now that link returns 404, even though I expect he still has his account.
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jboy If fb.com/zegnat returned 401 instead of 404, an attacker could know there's a profile with the name zegnat, which is what a privacy setting would be trying to hide.
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Zegnat Hmm, yeah, that is true as well.
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Zegnat I do wonder what setting triggers this, as I have no recollection of disabling my profile. I set all things I post to only be accessible to friends, same with photos, etc. But I want to be able to link to the profile page still.
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jboy Fb does document some settings relating to profile visibility, it seems: https://www.facebook.com/help/537592652938493
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jboy Oh wait, a "Page" is not a profile page.
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petermolnar can a webmention from url A to url B contain more than one webmention "content" ? ( I'm trying to figure out if it's safe to assume that a hash of concat(source,target) is unique )
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cweiske yes, if there are many h-entries on A
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cweiske like if you webmention with your full-text index page as source
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petermolnar and in that case should each h-entry be a treated as separate webmention?
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petermolnar (I'm realizing this should be talked about in -dev )
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cweiske probably
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GWG Morning
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Loqi guten morgen
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prtksxna GWG: Hey! What changes do you have in mind for the location plugin?
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GWG I completely redesigned the UI.
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cweiske location plugin?
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GWG Simple Location for WordPress
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GWG O never finished the work though
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GWG I got sidetracked
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prtksxna GWG: I was thinking of redoing the UI myself. Just wanted to do some clean up to get started.
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prtksxna GWG: So is the build PR going to mess with it in anyway?
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GWG If you look at the development version, I started changing to a popup location box instead of it being below
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GWG It shouldn't
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prtksxna GWG: If you have the design plan out somewhere, I'd love to help implement.
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cweiske https://wordpress.org/plugins/simple-location/ ?
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prtksxna GWG: Dev version? You mean the master branch on github, right? I don't see any other branches
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prtksxna cweiske: yep
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prtksxna GWG: I was thinking that we could have an interactive map to pin point the location. I needed that when posting old photos, makes it easier.
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cweiske anyone using that on their public instance where I could have a look?
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prtksxna cweiske: Using it only on my local blog, sorry.
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cweiske can you post a screenshot how it displays locations in posts?
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prtksxna cweiske: https://imgs.be/57d94872-1ccd.png and https://imgs.be/57d9487f-2628.png
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cweiske thanks. what happens if you click on the location text?
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prtksxna cweiske: it opens up in google maps
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cweiske ok
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prtksxna Which I am hoping becomes configurable at some point :)
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cweiske do you know if it works together with the micropub plugin? can I post via micropub with a location property?
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prtksxna I haven't tested it. But it uses the default WP location stuff, so it does work with the WP mobile app. I guess GWG could tell you more.
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GWG It uses the default location for storing Geo data, as does the Micropub plugin
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GWG It needs work
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prtksxna GWG: Yep! So would you be alright if I add the interactive map interface? Or do you have something else in mind?
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cweiske is there a way to link github repository from https://wordpress.org/plugins/simple-location/developers/ ?
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cweiske it's hard to find at "other notes"
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Loqi [indieweb] "Notes from SF Homebrew Website Club tonight: http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2016-09-07.html #indieweb" by Kevin Marks on 2016-09-08 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/notes-from-sf-homebrew-website-club-tonight-hwc2016-09-07html-indieweb
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Loqi [indieweb] "Is there a way to get people to understand how their networks connect? #indieweb" by Kevin Marks on 2016-09-08 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/is-there-a-way-to-get-people-to-understand-how
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Loqi [indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club Silicon Valley 2016-09-14" by Kevin Marks on 2016-09-08 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-silicon-valley-2016-09-14
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Loqi [indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club San Francisco 2016-09-21" by Kevin Marks on 2016-09-08 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-silicon-valley-2016-09-21
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GWG You can. That would not affect or could be as adapted for other changes.
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prtksxna GWG: Cool, the build related changes should not affect anything else either, right?
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GWG I don't think so, will check tonight.
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prtksxna Awesome! Thanks GWG :)
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IgnaciodeNuevo Hi there
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GWG Have to head off to work
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kapowaz hello! I’m looking for assistance with Jekyll, specifically collections. I want to be able to specify a global layout file for all items in a given collection, but I can’t seem to see how to configure that globally.
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voxpelli kapowaz: don't you usually specify layouts within each and every file in Jekyll? Haven't worked too much with collections, but that usually how I do it
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kapowaz @voxpelli that’s something I want to avoid
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kapowaz I want to reduce the fragility of it so that when individuals add items to the collections they don’t need to add a bunch of (otherwise) redundant config
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voxpelli kapowaz: that's not really how Jekyll is set up to work I think – I've opted to use different base layouts instead, see eg: https://github.com/voxpelli/voxpelli.github.com/blob/master/_posts/2016-08-14-44800.md
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voxpelli kapowaz: and then use Micropub to provide user friendly editors for the content
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kapowaz hmm. Reading the docs it seems like it’s something it _should_ be able to do, it’s just it doesn’t go into details on how you specify a layout after the first collection
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kapowaz https://jekyllrb.com/docs/collections/
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kapowaz this stack overflow article talks about doing it the same way: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8490528/how-can-i-make-jekyll-use-a-layout-without-specifying-it
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voxpelli looks like it
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voxpelli kapowaz: added any indieweb things to your jekyll page?
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kapowaz nope, I was just pointed to ask about this here by @KevinMarks because lots of indieweb folks use Jekyll :)
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voxpelli kapowaz: cool :) whenever you want to get started with marking up your web page or add webmentions or micropub then that's all doable for Jekyll as well
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kapowaz indeed, and I suspect there will be scope for adding more semantic markup for that kind of thing further down the line. For now I’m mostly just trying to get a relatively basic engineering blog up and running for my company
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cweiske !tell aaronpk in micropub, if the "slug" is already taken - should the server silently ignore it and create its own slug, or throw an error?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks It looks like you could put multiple scopes in the yaml
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voxpelli cweiske: sounds like that could be up to the server to decide
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cweiske the wordpress MP plugin silently creates it own slug, "slug-2" and so
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cweiske known completely ignores the slug :/
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voxpelli if the server needs advice on how to handle it: Throw an error. if the server thinks it can handle it nicely: Then by all means, move ahead and deal with it
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voxpelli cweiske: and I replace the current content at the slug ;) (as an optional feature)
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GWG cweiske, it is WordPress that does that, not the plugin specifically
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KevinMarks That implementation variation sounds like we should tighten up the intent - overwriting seems tricky when there is a separate documented way to do that.
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@hs0ucy @syllamoureux Comment peut-on être sûr que nos #silos préférés ne vont pas sombrer? https://indieweb.org/site-deaths Où ira alors le contenu? (twitter.com/_/status/776086576921182208)
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GWG The specification probably should address collision
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tantek GWG, agreed. cweiske - worth filing a micropub issue for that.
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KevinMarks Slug is usually a guideline - most tools will sanitise it
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kapowaz @KevinMarks I thought so too, but it appears to ignore it when I add another scope
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KevinMarks And eg silo.pub can't make twitter have slugs that aren't giant integers too big for js
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GWG The WordPress solution, as mentioned, is to add something to the end
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KevinMarks Are scopes like route matching, where order matters
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kapowaz e.g. https://gist.github.com/kapowaz/23025c6c499b6d2f4a78b57012663fce
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kapowaz maybe, I’ll try reversing it
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tantek GWG, that seems sensible
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voxpelli as long as the spec leaves room for endpoints to handle it silently without throwing an error then it could probably spec what to do with a collision that the server can't handle
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tantek GWG, maybe note that in the issue on micropub as a solution
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voxpelli Currently I have instead chosen to replace existing document at that slug instead – a bit more user hostile, but comes with other benefits
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voxpelli good if spec leaves some room for Postel's law to be applied
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kapowaz okay it looks as though the reason the existing collection (guidelines) worked is because they _do_ specify the layout per-page… *eyeroll*
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KevinMarks Ah, so the syntax could have been wrong.
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tantek voxpelli: seem dangerous to *allow* unintentional user content loss
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tantek when there's already an explicit update mechanims
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tantek s/mechanims/mechanism
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voxpelli tantek: only if the user hasn't explicitly opted for it
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voxpelli and not all clients are able to do a proper update, for some a replace is the way to go
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cweiske https://github.com/w3c/Micropub/issues/49
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cweiske (slug issue)
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voxpelli my Editorial.app Micropub implementation would probably have a hard time with a more proper update – it just does the same save each time
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voxpelli I do know other API:s that do similar Upserts
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aaronpk What is a slug?
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Loqi aaronpk: cweiske left you a message 24 minutes ago: in micropub, if the "slug" is already taken - should the server silently ignore it and create its own slug, or throw an error?
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Loqi A slug is a series of words in a permalink URL, usually at the end, that are from or representative of the name or text of a post, and thus part of an overall URL design https://indieweb.org/slug
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aaronpk note that it's called "slug" and not "path"
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aaronpk so treating it as a unique identifier is usually not what things do
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aaronpk My site has no concept of a slug already being taken, since I have additional components of the URL that identify the post
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aaronpk a bunch of my posts have the same slug
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aaronpk Ultimately I think this up to the server to decide how to handle it tho
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voxpelli if the server wants to display the slug collision as a validation error though – then it seems like it can't communicate that to the user?
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voxpelli error_description is meant for devs only and there's no field for an error facing validation error
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michel_v as a user I would find an error annoying
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michel_v I'd rather have a warning notification with a possibility to change the slug
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michel_v "hey that slug whatever was already taken, we've changed your slug to whatever2 (or whatever3 etc), you may change the slug if you want something unique"
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michel_v think about the user with a bad browser that would wipe a form after using the back button, or other stupid handlings of forms
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voxpelli maybe – or just limit it to success or error and not have the success with warnings case
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voxpelli it's fairly rare to annotate success responses in an API with warnings
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michel_v oh, an API, OK
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michel_v I was thinking about usage in a browser, my bad
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voxpelli (there is a Warning header specified though, never seen it in use though: https://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.46)
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michel_v TIL
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michel_v "Warnings in the user's preferred character set take priority" holy cow, how would you decide to add warnings in multiple character sets in the headers?
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michel_v recipe for disaster, especially in Asia
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KevinMarks database-antipattern << https://github.com/gfredericks/quinedb/blob/master/README.md
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Loqi ok, I added "https://github.com/gfredericks/quinedb/blob/master/README.md" to the "See Also" section of /database-antipattern
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snarfed KevinMarks: that thing is so weird
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snarfed seems like a troll from the obfuscated c camp
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tantek whoa who put the new defaiult text template in the etherpads? very cool!
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cweiske snarfed, shpub 0.0.5 phar file is available at https://github.com/cweiske/shpub/releases/tag/v0.0.5
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snarfed cweiske: thanks!
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cweiske you're probably the first user apart from me
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snarfed :)
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KevinMarks1 I'm pretty sure it is a parody, but I have seen odder things built
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KevinMarks1 note alt fail from adactio's post
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KevinMarks1 so, how do we redeploy indiewebify.me? I know gregor was changing it
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snarfed1 KevinMarks: afaik it's set up to auto deploy on git push
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snarfed1 aaronpk can confirm
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gRegorLove It's audo-deploy on merge, yes, but there was an issue with it when I tried. aaronpk knows, so it's on his list :)
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KevinMarks1 ah, so the ci runs first? https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/pull/55
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gRegorLove misses search for chat.indieweb.org
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cweiske yeah I got distracted at fixing the last search issues by micropub
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cweiske gRegorLove, http://indiechat.search.cweiske.de/ has some of it indexed
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gRegorLove KevinMarks1: Build started: https://travis-ci.org/indieweb/indiewebify-me
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gRegorLove This is mine from August 2nd that failed: https://travis-ci.org/indieweb/indiewebify-me/builds/149338527
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KevinMarks1 it says the log is too long
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aaronpk Oh man I don't remember the problem
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gRegorLove Discussion: https://chat.indieweb.org/2016-08-02#t1470181441127000
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KevinMarks1 not very informative error
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gRegorLove 11 minutes seems quite long too
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gRegorLove Hey, it passed
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KevinMarks1 yay
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KevinMarks1 I have a new endpoint
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@ncollig_net Tantek Celik: "Why We Need the IndieWeb": https://ncollig.net/2016/tantek-celik-why-we-need-the-indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/776134072347271168)
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aaronpk I should make it report successful deploys in IRC
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Loqi +1
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tantek that makes sense. maybe in #Indieweb-dev ?
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aaronpk Yeah
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KevinMarks1 and unsuccessful ones
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KevinMarks1 packaging chrome extensions is a pain the neck
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snarfed1 as an example, circleci reports bridgy, granary, etc builds in #bridgy
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KevinMarks1 OK, updated https://chrome.google.com/webstore/developer/edit/nnefkajddpfponfnmaflddipljfdlcjb
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KevinMarks1 of course, now it shows lots more red X's
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cweiske /edit/?
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KevinMarks1 as the https to http thing was not showing anything
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KevinMarks1 oops https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/nnefkajddpfponfnmaflddipljfdlcjb/
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KevinMarks Gregorlove: can you try adding your case fix?
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j12t KevinMarks: when do we start tonight? Website is confused about 17:30 vs 18:00 vs 28:30.
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KevinMarks1 28:30 is interesting
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KevinMarks1 17:30 writing time, 18:30 start I think. We have the room for a bit longer than 19:30
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KevinMarks1 it's TWiG time
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j12t Ok, I added my own version of the confusion.
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j12t This says 18:00-21:00 CEST, and right below Pacific Time": https://indieweb.org/events/2016-09-14-homebrew-website-club
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KevinMarks1 hm, posse'd RSVp not so good
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gRegorLove KevinMarks: That's in indieweb/rel-me, not indiewebify-me
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gRegorLove Wait, that was already merged. In theory it should be in the latest indiewebify-me deployment, unless it doesn't update composer packages
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@kevinmarks Homebrew Website Club Silicon Valley GoDaddy, 1020 Enterprise Way #300, Sunnyvale, CA 94089 at 18:30 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-silicon-valley-2016-09-14 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/776155925316972544)
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@Johannes_Ernst Going to #indieweb Homebrew Website Club Silicon Valley tonight. Thanks @GoDaddy for hosting. https://indieweb.org/events/2016-09-14-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/776156082364264448)
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aaronpk gRegorLove: it probably won't update dependencies on an install. You'd have to run the update locally and then commit the new composer file
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gRegorLove So there's a new composer.lock file?
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gRegorLove The composer.json wouldn't change
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aaronpk Right
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aaronpk as long as the composer.json file allows that update
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aaronpk moves to #indieweb-dev
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KevinMarks1 looks like http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/ is still failing
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@jkphl Thanks HWC Nuremberg crew for this special Homebrew Birthday Club edition! :) #indieweb https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/776157691345510400/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/776157691345510400)
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tantek oh that's amazing
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gRegorLove Hah. They take the best photos.
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tantek that should be at the top of the newsletter
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aaronpk I should make it sort the photos by the number of likes they get
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tantek uh, how are you going to measure # of likes?
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tantek since the photos are retrieved from the event pages?
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aaronpk We need the wiki to show webmentions!
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tantek and the pages to support receiving fragmentions
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tantek so we can like a specific photo on the page
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@gRegorLove Hey, Bellingham, want to work on your personal website? Come out to Homebrew Website Club September 21 @WoodsCoffee! https://indieweb.org/events/2016-09-21-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/776159277937364992)
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KevinMarks1 svgur.com supports webmentions of the images
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KevinMarks1 anything for TWiG?
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@sugruecomms .@maidsafe launches funding round on .@BankToTheFuture find out what it means to future of the #internet https://bnktothefuture.com/pitches/maidsafe-net-ltd #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/776159869812420609)
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@cairbreUK .@maidsafe launches funding round on .@BankToTheFuture find out what it means to future of the #internet https://bnktothefuture.com/pitches/maidsafe-net-ltd #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/776159882412036096)
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aaronpk KevinMarks1: you should just start summarizing the last week's newsletter for twig
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KevinMarks1 well, it's pretty much events
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j12t kevinmarks: if you are looking for a current news story, this week are the battling ownCloud/nextCloud conferences in Berlin.
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aaronpk KevinMarks1: there's probably interesting things you could talk about if you look at the wiki changes
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@sdepolo Join @kevinmarks and I tonight at the @GoDaddy #Sunnyvale office for the #indieweb Homebrew Website Club https://www.facebook.com/events/340064599665536/ (twitter.com/_/status/776161740018987008)
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KevinMarks1 shpub sloph WARC
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aaronpk I've never even heard of NextCloud
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cweiske fork of owncloud
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cweiske founder of owncloud left the company and took 9 of the 10 devs with him
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aaronpk naming tip: if your product name is "next ____" then by the time your product actually replaces the ____ then that term will sound out of date
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KevinMarks1 pwncloud
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KevinMarks1 NeXT
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snarfed we actually work with a totally serious vendor called PWNHealth at my day job
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snarfed http://pwnhealth.com/
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snarfed none of the engineers can ever manage to say it with a straight face
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j12t So ownCloud has their conf this week, and nextcloud starting on the weekend, in the same place, as far as I can tell. I have a talk there but won't see it as I'm just sending the video instead myself...
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KevinMarks1 do I make verify-me my thing of the week?
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KevinMarks1 can we take the traffic?
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aaronpk It's on google app engine so sure?
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KevinMarks1 wait, did I not fix this? https://indiewebify.me/rel-me-links/?url1=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fkevinmarks&url2=https%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FgqnNoJI3Wy
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KevinMarks1 oh wait https://indiewebify.me/rel-me-links-info/?url1=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fkevinmarks&url2=https%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FgqnNoJI3Wy
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KevinMarks1 ah, I was running the old plugin
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KevinMarks1 why am I getting an X for twitter though? http://www.kevinmarks.com/
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KevinMarks1 hm www https://indiewebify.me/rel-me-links-info/?url2=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fkevinmarks&url1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kevinmarks.com
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tantek www--
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Loqi www has -1 karma (-3 in this channel)
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KevinMarks1 tempted to demo woodwind+silo.pub but that may be too much
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tantek KevinMarks: just practice it beforehand :)
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@sugruecomms via .@riptari check out this detailed analysis of the alpha launch of .@maidsafe #safenetwork https://techcrunch.com/2016/08/12/after-a-decade-of-rd-maidsafes-decentralized-network-opens-for-alpha-testing/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/776186307441590272)
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@cairbreUK via .@riptari check out this detailed analysis of the alpha launch of .@maidsafe #safenetwork https://techcrunch.com/2016/08/12/after-a-decade-of-rd-maidsafes-decentralized-network-opens-for-alpha-testing/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/776186307672276992)
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KevinMarks The way to do it would be to go to his studio
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KevinMarks1 j.mp/indieme is the shortcut to the rel-me plugin
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GWG Greetings for the next time today
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@kevinmarks That Homebrew Website Club feeling #indieweb https://twitter.com/tripofmice/status/776204944474906624 (twitter.com/_/status/776207957851635712)
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