#indieweb 2016-10-04

2016-10-04 UTC
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tantek the only problem with the "backend architecture astronauts" theory is that if a lot of this has been developed / exported / open sourced by FB devs, they clearly have a decent "proof of work" that shows that their methodology "works" (assuming they're dogfooding)
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aaronpk nobody is questioning whether this stuff works for Facebook. the problem is that Facebook has a ton more resources than most other companies and teams.
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[benatwork] ^ Exactly that. I think (cough, know) many well-funded, large teams use similar architectures. It doesn’t scale back to small teams
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tantek or individuals
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tantek so it really is for "enterprise" level dev teams
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aaronpk also because they are Facebook and they are the ones developing the libraries, they're always on the leading edge of whatever changes are happening. contrast that with any other company using the libraries Facebook produces, they're essentially always using the "old" version because they're getting updates after facebook finishes them.
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aaronpk so there is a built-in cost of always chasing whatever facebook is changing when you use these things
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tantek true
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tantek "async" has always been challenging on the web platform so it doesn't surprise me that anything trying to do "async" is still heavily thrashing
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tantek (ironically)
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tantek THIS: "I need to display data on a page, not perform Sub Zero’s original MK fatality. "
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tantek wow ok I just read that whole thing. no wonder webdev is such a mess these days.
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tantek and I now don't believe any webdev about any of this stuff unless they have it live deployed on their personal site
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tantek benatwork ^^^ please feel free to share that around if you think it will help
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snarfed hey aaronpk, i assume micropub.rocks's server tests will (obviously) run against a live site...i wonder if there's any way for them to run without their posts showing up on the site's front page, etc?
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snarfed curious if you've thought about it at all
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snarfed maybe backdating the posts to a long time ago?
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tantek or the FUTURE
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snarfed heh. if only all servers hid future posts. (only some actually do :P)
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tantek would that be called "foredating"?
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aaronpk snarfed: i was assuming people would not use their main site for testing
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snarfed agreed, ideally! setting up new sites just for testing takes a bit of work though
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tantek snarfed, what? what else would you do with future posts besides hide them? I mean, doing anything else would violate the temporal prime directive.
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snarfed sidesteps the debate
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tantek there is no sidestepping temporal integrity
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aaronpk eh, if people want to post on their main site i don't want to stop them. also doing tricks like setting the date to the past or future is sort of weird when in the context of testing the server.
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snarfed eh, not too weird
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snarfed but ok
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snarfed ponders where he'd run his test wp site :/
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aaronpk a subdomain should be easy enough to set up
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aaronpk besides, having a test copy is generally a good thing, and i'm happy to encourage that behavior!
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aaronpk snarfed: i assume you don't develop wordpress extensions on your live site, so wherever you are developing the extension should work?
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sknebel ponders adding a "can-post-visibly" scope to tokens
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snarfed aaronpk: localhost :/
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aaronpk route it through ngrok.io?
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snarfed sknebel: they'd have to be visible for the tests to work
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aaronpk that's what i'm doing with my local copy
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snarfed aaronpk: true, guess so
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sknebel I can live with test posts that don't show up in the main feeds
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aaronpk also right now the tests are self-reported, the site isn't actually going and checking the resulting HTML.
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snarfed ah, ok
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sknebel but getting a staging copy set up is probably the better way
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aaronpk sknebel: I have essentially that flag https://aaronparecki.com/2016/04/13/8/indieauth
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] New integrated authorization server for p3k
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aaronpk when I authorize an app, I can choose to force all its posts into a "collection", which can also keep them off my home page. now that I support actually private posts, i'm going to add a checkbox for that, so I can force all posts created with a specific access token to always be private.
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sknebel I was wondering about ideas for that
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tantek oh hey there micropub discussion, perhaps #indieweb-dev might be more appropriate? ;)
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tantek (also true for the JS dev rants)
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tantek (but then, that would exclude [benatwork] and other slack users right?0
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aaronpk yeah, no slack bridge in -dev yet :(
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[benatwork] a single tear
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[benatwork] u-tear
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aaronpk gotta finish micropub.rocks tests first, then maybe will move on to finishing chat.indieweb.org
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snarfed have to admit, i've never been entirely convinced about the dev channel split
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snarfed it's totally true that discussions about deep tech stuff could scare off newcomers
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snarfed but we also seem to constantly nudge, guess, and debate where individual discussions should go
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snarfed and it also fragments them. (eg i'm not in -dev :P)
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snarfed i have no solution, just rambling
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tantek Loqi, if someone in this channel uses the word "develop" OR "staging" could you nudge them to consider using #indieweb-dev? Unless "develop a photograph" or "staging" followed by "home" or "apartment" or "house", in which case, nudge them to consider #indiechat. Thanks in advance Loqi!
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Loqi "staging" followed by "home"
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tantek (^^^ when Loqi can actually parse and integrate requests like that, then we're in actual trouble)
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snarfed sounds like he's on top of it
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Salt If it hasn't been linked here yet and you need a good laugh: https://hackernoon.com/how-it-feels-to-learn-javascript-in-2016-d3a717dd577f
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ChrisAldrich messages?
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ChrisAldrich aaronpk: I've updated the files w/ PR at https://github.com/indieweb/2016.indieweb.org for IWC-LA. Is there anything else missing or needing updates to go live? The Tito registration set up may need work, but I have no idea how that portion functions...
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GWG ChrisAldrich: Still need to know where might be a good place to stay if I come.
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Loqi [indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club San Francisco 2016-10-05" by Kevin Marks on 2016-10-04 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-san-francisco-2016-10-05
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KevinMarks OK SF peeps
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ChrisAldrich GWG: I was just going through some options. While there are lots of hotels within walking distance, most are in the $350+/night range (because they're only blocks from the beach)
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GWG What is the best budget option? The Best Western only a short bus ride away?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "best budget option" yet. Would you like to create it?
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ChrisAldrich GWG: I'd recommend searching online in West Los Angeles, Near LAX, or even Westwood, Hollywood, and even downtown for cheaper rates.
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GWG Chrisaldrich, how would I get to the venue then?
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ChrisAldrich Best Westerns out here are usually pretty nice and relatively inexpensive. The tourist trade creates a premium on rooms.
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ChrisAldrich I'm game to give you rides if you need. I'll be driving from the Glendale area and coming from about 30 minutes across town, so you could do downtown, hollywood, westwood, beverly hills and it'd be easy to pick you up.
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ChrisAldrich GWG: Otherwise, Uber/Lyft are also pretty good options in most of the city.
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GWG I am still Uber sensitive.
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GWG I like people who drive me around to have licenses.
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ChrisAldrich Part of your calculus is if you want to visit other tourist attractions while you're here.
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ChrisAldrich LA is better on that account than most other areas. And there's always legit cabs for the NY die-hards.
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GWG I would like to.
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GWG I have some vacation time, but I just got told I have to teach another class around that time.
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ChrisAldrich If you're within walking distance of either Wilshire blvd or Santa Monica busses are a reasonable option as both of those have good direct bus routes down to the beach in Santa Monica
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GWG Ok. May try to pick your brain again, if you are available
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ChrisAldrich If you want to stay somewhere as far out as Pasadena/Glendale, things get cheaper and I'm always happy to pick you up/drop you off for the days you're out here.
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ChrisAldrich there's a handful of places around the Americana (major shopping destination in glendale) that are nicer/less expensive and have lots of food/entertainment options within a few blocks walking distance
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ChrisAldrich Westwood area around UCLA isn't a bad option either and is only a 10 minute trip down the street to santa monica.
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GWG My goal is to find a base to do some low level sightseeing.
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ChrisAldrich Hollywood-based sightseeing?
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GWG Just general LA
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GWG Nothing specific.
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GWG I like to take those bus tours that give you a sense of an area.
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GWG But not sure about Hollywood.
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KevinMarks GWG try hipmunk - it's good at optimising
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KevinMarks and it searches airbnb too
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GWG I also don't like AirBNB.
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GWG I'll sort it out
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ChrisAldrich Keep in mind that in LA, because of traffic, we don't judge things in distances, we judge them in minutes. Almost everything you could want to see is within 30 minutes or so of driving (10-25 miles typically). Staying in Hollywood, Beverly Hills, Westwood, or Santa Monica will keep you close enough to just about everything you could want to see.
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ChrisAldrich There's a 5 block strip on Hollywood blvd. that's got most of the tourist attractions there (as well as bases for the on-off buses that drive around the city for tours).
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GWG Chrisaldrich, how is attendance looking?
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ChrisAldrich The camp is dead center in the middle of a major shopping/tourist area in santa monica that you could spend hours walking around in.
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KevinMarks_ Santa Monica is relatively walkable
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ChrisAldrich It's also just a few blocks from the beach and the Santa Monica Pier so you can spend some time at the beach if you wish or even walk down a bit to Venice Beach.
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ChrisAldrich I need to take a quick recount of people I've spoken to in various spaces and start whipping people to RSVP in one/more places, but it looks like we should do as well as NY.
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ChrisAldrich I'm starting the hard court press from now until November though.
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ChrisAldrich KevinMarks_ are you planning to be in our neck of the woods then?
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GWG I have always wanted to meet KevinMarks
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KevinMarks_ If I manage to get more paid work by then.
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bear FYI - Github is experiancing a major outage
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ChrisAldrich me/ Thinks what can we hire Kevin for, so GWG can meet him in LA?
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GWG I think my desire to meet KevinMarks in person is not critical
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ChrisAldrich GWG: Are you more of a movie or tv fan? You there are a few things you could start to arrange now to attend TV tapings and/or premieres (especially if you're staying through a Monday/Tuesday).
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ChrisAldrich Now's the time to push for tickets for The Price is Right etc. if you're into that...
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GWG I wish I could, but my boss sprung another class on me.
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GWG I have to push to get off any time right now.
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ChrisAldrich Just let me know what you'd like to see while you're out here and I can put together some recommendations to maximize your time.
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GWG I am mostly there for the camp
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ChrisAldrich #TheresMoreToLifeThanIndieWeb
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GWG I stink at vacation.
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ChrisAldrich We all stink at Vacation... I tell myself that even sporadic trips to see family are "vacation".
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cweiske how many days of paid vacation are standard in the US?
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ChrisAldrich Usually a minimum of 2 weeks are typically offered, but few take even that much.
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cweiske oh. didn't know it's that bad.
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cweiske we've got 25 days minimum here in DE
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ChrisAldrich GWG: Facilities-wise, what were the things you wish you'd had for NYC2? I suspect more microphones would have been one.
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begriffs Does anybody run NNTP servers anymore? It seems like a nice distributed way to run an internet forum.
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cweiske I'm running one locally @home to mirror some of my beloved groups
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Zegnat re vacation: we have 20 days in the Netherlands, the company I work for gives us an additional 7. And I recognise what ChrisAldrich is saying, I didn't take any vacation during the summer and treated IWC Brighton as my "vacation"
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begriffs cweiske: cool! What server do you use? I'm attempting to install this one https://github.com/cdpxe/WendzelNNTPd
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cweiske I use leafnode
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begriffs Do other people connect to your server as well?
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cweiske it's only available in my home network, so: no
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cweiske I only have two internal machines using it
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cweiske as I wrote it's for archiving purposes only
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cweiske to keep the post of decades of a couple of newsgroups
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cweiske most public NNTP servers only have 3 months of history
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begriffs I see. I'm planning to run a server for a local user group rather than using a web based forum. Not sure whether this will work out, but it seems like this is what the protocol is for!
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cweiske it is indeed
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cweiske what is nntp?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/nntp
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cweiske php.net uses some mail-nntp gateway
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cweiske you can subscribe via mail or nntp to newsgroups/mailing lists
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cweiske and they provide a working, but usability-wise bad web interface
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cweiske http://news.php.net/
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begriffs cweiske: what powers the web interface for your personal git server?
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cweiske custom css to gitweb
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cweiske but I'd like to have a "real" web interface with issues and admin thingy stuff
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cweiske but gitlab is too hard to setup (too many components)
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cweiske and gogit development stalled, so I'll never get OpenID login
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cweiske which are the only options that I know of
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begriffs cweiske: are you sure? There's this PR in progress https://github.com/gogits/gogs/pull/3595
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cweiske I know, but development stalled on gogit
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cweiske so I'm sure it will not get merged this or next year
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cweiske just look at https://github.com/gogits/gogs/graphs/commit-activity and the number of open issues and PRs
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@sil @shuckle I think @homebrewbrum may have a bunch of people turn up to talk about farging rather than the indieweb :) (twitter.com/_/status/783238677594013696)
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[ignaciodenuevo] Hi guys/girls, can anyone tell me what was the script bloker browser plugin you use or recommend? I use chrome and firefox
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Zegnat [ignaciodenuevo], tantek uses https://noscript.net/ for Firefox
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hs0ucy [ignaciodenuevo]: https://www.eff.org/privacybadger
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Zegnat hs0ucy, Privacy Badger only blocks tracking though, right?
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hs0ucy Zegnat: You're right.
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@cholick @jas_on I have hopes for the IndieWeb movement. Folks like @kevinmarks fighting the good fight. (twitter.com/_/status/783323413733445632)
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[anomalily] anomalily uploaded a file: Screen Shot 2016-10-04 at 8.14.26 AM.png and commented: I have a puzzling question. I’m trying to push data daily from a CSV to a div in a wordpress theme like this picture. Ideas on how? Google spreadsheet>??>wordpress
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snarfed [anomalily]: ifttt? zapier?
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ChrisAldrich [anomalily]: You might try repurposing parts of a plugin like https://wordpress.org/plugins/nasa-astrology-picture-of-the-day/
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ChrisAldrich though that particular one uses a NASA API, so it might be a bit over the top for your needs
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@sl007 @marcthiele @jkphl @HeNeArXn @adactio @glennjones @martijnvdven @aaronpk @t @m_ott We can decide for a date now: https://indieweb.org/Planning%23Berlin (twitter.com/_/status/783369583742812160)
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[kevinmarks] You can get data from a Google spreadsheet as json, so fetch that and render?
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tantek nice to see progress on planning IWC Berlin!
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KevinMarks1 invite people to HWC on fcabook
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[kevinmarks] anomalily another way may be to make a chart in Google spreadsheet, and embed that directly as an image, as they have a way to get the url
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Loqi [indieweb] " I have 404 links that I want to export from #Facebook (mostly stuff to read recommended by friends & contacts) the problem is, there isn't any way to do this, even with IFTTT or Pocket. Someone on Quora found a way to extract links to a text file from a ruby scrapper but that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a service that would push these saved facebook links to a RSS reader or my site. or I can use my existing android indieweb setup to bookmark directly to here. I just need to stop using the save feature when I see something I want to save for later and instead open it and use the mobile or desktop app to directly store it on my site with the bookmarklet or manually. " by Rick Mendes on 2016-10-04 https://www.rmendes.net/2016/10/04/i-have-404-links-that-i-want-to-export-from
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Zegnat Pleases me to see some names being added to /Planning#Berlin :D If any EU people are reading this, help us decide a date: https://indieweb.org/Planning#Berlin !
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sknebel hm, picking active people from IRC_people is difficult
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Zegnat Loqi: !tell active-EU-IRC-citizens go to /Planning#Berlin and help us decide a date
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bnvk ahoy, have any of you heard from someone planning to doing an IWC in Berlin at the c-base hackerspace?
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marcthiele @bnvk yip. Why?
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Loqi marcthiele: snarfed left you a message on 2016-05-24 at 7:11am UTC: sorry for the dupes! bridgy tries to avoid those, but it's impossible to prevent all of them. you'll want to make your CMS de-dupe them. maybe send a feature request if it doesn't already.
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KevinMarks1 this is weird. AngelList has rel="me" links in, I can see them when I curl the page, but indiewebify and unmung don't see them https://angel.co/kevinmarks
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Zegnat bnvk: sknebel was at c-base for us
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KevinMarks1 the browser plugin sees them
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Zegnat oh, hi marcthiele! Congrats on the spectacular sale of the early birds today!
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marcthiele ;)
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marcthiele Thanks, Zegnat
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marcthiele Crazy and frightening.
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marcthiele Wish we would have more time to organise an IWC in Berlin. All a bit short notice now.
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marcthiele And I myself am already in the very intense phase of preparations for beyond tellerrand in Berlin :(
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marcthiele I hope I can help Sebastian somehow
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marcthiele Would be great to get something done
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Zegnat We know, Joschi informed us, that’s why Sebastian stepped up in the first place, so you wouldn’t have to do it all
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Zegnat KevinMarks, that is definitely weird. They are there in the HTML, even pre-JS, from what I can see
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marcthiele Totally different Situation in Düsseldorf. I am much closer to the venue and can easily organise stuff.
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Zegnat So… IWC Düsseldorf in May? :p
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Zegnat Wait. Isn’t IWC Nürnberg in May..?
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marcthiele Düsseldorf is the weekend before Nuremberg. Sadly the Nuremberg Web Week has chosen the same week for their stuff as I did for beyond tellerrand.
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marcthiele But Joschi and I plan to organise something nice to take advantage of being so close together. ;)
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marcthiele Off now to get some sleep.
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Zegnat Have a good night!
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Loqi night
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Zegnat KevinMarks, I might have figured out the AngelList issue
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Zegnat I just did a wget on the URL, and then the downloaded file is a “Blocked IP” page stating “Your user agent has been blocked for security reasons.”
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Zegnat So indiewebify and unmung probably cannot even fetch the HTML
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KevinMarks1 huh. I was able to curl it locally
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KevinMarks1 for aaronpk: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6919
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Zegnat This is what I get from wget: https://gist.github.com/Zegnat/c5810feefefa98435b8ef97d35bd952d
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Zegnat I am off for bed, good night all!
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Loqi see you in the morning!
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tantek at IWC Brighton hack day, adactio built support for his server to notify archive.org to archive everything he bookmarked
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tantek what do folks think of similarly notifying archive.org for every wiki edit?
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bear wiki edits are useful for a small time window IMO, when you are looking to see why a page was changed recently
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[benatwork] ^ Known did that for a period of time
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bear archiving of them would be noise, let's archive the page daily/weekly and not worry about the low level churn it took to make the page
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tantek bear, I'm surprised to hear you say that, as wiki versions are no less valuable than git file versions / history
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tantek and "changed recently" is a misconception. several times even in recent memory, people have performed wikiarcheology on versions across years to determine the history of terms / phrases
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bear it could be that this 3 day holiday i'm starting tomorrow is very well needed and I should just recuse myself until then
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tantek e.g. http://indieweb.org/tagline#IndieWeb_Tagline
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tantek alternatively, it could be a weekly process, timed simultaneously with the sending/publication of "This Week"
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tantek notifying archive.org to archive each of the new pages as well as the "edited" pages.
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tantek that would likely reduce some of the potential "noise" that bear refers to, as well as build upon our already established practice of creating / cleaning up pages just in time for "This Week"
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tantek is watching the Long Now Summit remotely (longnow.org/live - member login required)
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aaronpk oh i like the idea of pinging archive.org with the wiki URLs in the this-week newsletter
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tantek Ping archive.org with the wiki URLs in the this-week newsletter? Why not all the URLs in the this-week newsletter?
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tantek fails to make Loqi meme that
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tantek E.g. any new users would be good to capture with their current site
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aaronpk yeah sure
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KevinMarks1 I was thinking about making mention-tech ping the archive with each page it hears about
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gRegorLove Good afternoon, indieweb
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KevinMarks1 https://twitter.com/mathewi/status/783445939419742208
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@mathewi @kevinmarks I just hate the fact that we have three huge silos that refuse to admit that the others exist (twitter.com/_/status/783445939419742208)
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KevinMarks1 benatwork: why did known stop? Extra traffic?
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KevinMarks1 what is gatsby?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "gatsby" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[benatwork] @kevinmarks1: blocking calls. Needed more of an asynchronous framework to send pings
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KevinMarks1 gatsby is a react-based [[static_site_generator]] with live preview - see https://github.com/gatsbyjs/gatsby
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Loqi ok
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KevinMarks1 gotcha. That would be easy on appengine based things. I should roll it into svgur and mention-tech