#indieweb 2016-10-17

2016-10-17 UTC
gRegorLove, KevinMarks, KevinMarks_, snarfed, tantek, wolftune, cweiske, jihaisse, Pierre-O and dinartejesus joined the channel
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gRegorLove US Presidential Debates seems like all the more reason to have an HWC. :)
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gRegorLove I want to get something productive done during that time.
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@jdinartejesus Hey @jkphl, I'm participating on the #indieweb. Hoodies would be cool! How can I apply for it? (twitter.com/_/status/787925374709723136)
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@jkphl @jdinartejesus Great! :) Just add yourself to the list on the wiki https://indieweb.org/2016/Berlin%23IndieWebCamp_Hoodies You'll need #IndieAuth working to log in & edit,› (twitter.com/_/status/787927489960108032)
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@jdinartejesus @jkphl Great! See you at #indieweb :D (twitter.com/_/status/787929058134851585)
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@jkphl #indieweb hoodies: Pls see pricing & colour details ? http://indieweb.org/2016/Berlin%23IndieWebCamp_Hoodies & update your entries +@c_weiske @jdinartejesus @martijnvdven (twitter.com/_/status/787957517389291521)
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@IndieWebCampDE News zu den IWC-Hoodies für Berlin: Preis, Farbe, Bestelldatum. Alle Details im Wiki: http://indieweb.org/2016/Berlin%23IndieWebCamp_Hoodies (twitter.com/_/status/787957838622629889)
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@kosmar looking at https://indieweb.org/2016/Berlin #indiewebBER (twitter.com/_/status/787961085303386116)
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Webrocker Hi y'all… is there a way to get/register/use a "nice" user name in the wiki? When I log in with my website, my username will be "Www.webrocker.de" (or, if I leave out the "www." Webrocker.de). I'd like to use "webrocker", (which is also the twitter account through which the authorization is established) but I didn't find a way to set/change the user name. Am I missing something? Cheers, Tom
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cweiske no. domains are used only in this wiki
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Loqi cweiske: snarfed left you a message 4 days, 18 hours ago: instagram-atom *used to* use the API, but it switched to scraping a while back when IG basically turned off that part of the API, so it does include private posts now
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Webrocker @cweiske ok, thx :-)
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sebilasse Webrocker: cweiske: / aaronpk: I think Webrocker was referring to templates like "{{cweiske}}" - also did not get this …
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Webrocker @sebilasse @cweiske uhm, well I think that user:Webrocker.de is what'll get a {{Webrocker.de}} template
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cweiske no
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cweiske that nickname templates are separate
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cweiske see https://indieweb.org/Template:cweiske
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cweiske https://indieweb.org/Template:t
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cweiske https://indieweb.org/Template:aaronpk
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Webrocker ok, I see. So how'd I connect the Template for the "Nickname" with the "User" generated by website login? What's the use case?
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cweiske there is no connection per se
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cweiske the user page is automatically generated by mediawiki for all users
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cweiske the template is made by you so you can "sign" things in the wiki quickly
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cweiske mediawiki templates are accessible via "{{templatename}}"
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cweiske so people started to add nick name templates containing the avatar image and name and link to their user page
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sebilasse cweiske: aaronpk: But there seems to be a bug if there is no template yet - also "fweil" had that and so we don't know who he pretends to be ;) We need to talk about that in Berlin - finished the code logic of IndieAuth-node. Thinking about "views" now. Progressive enhanced server-side rendered dojo2 or one of the thousands of other templating engines or consolidate or what ...
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sebilasse Webrocker: ^ + What happens when you logged in and want to create your template ?
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Webrocker thanks for the info :-) I now have a User: and Template: entry, nicked the markup yours' and joshi's entries.
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Webrocker @sebilasse @cweiske So there is no connection between template: and user: entry, only that as a convention one links to the user page from the template, right?
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cweiske yes
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Webrocker ok.
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cweiske you could also link to your homepage if you don't want to have a user page
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cweiske s/have/maintain/
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Webrocker so the last piece in the puzzle is: if i am logged in to the wiki, and join the chat, can I "use" the wiki account? currently my nick here is freestyle, as far as I can tell (?)
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cweiske the last piece is actually a 3rd step; add yourself to irc-people. loqi and chat.indieweb.org use the list there
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cweiske https://indieweb.org/irc-people
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Webrocker great! :-) thanks for the assistance
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@dkreuz IndieWebCamp Berlin 2016, am 5./6.11. Spread the word! https://indieweb.org/2016/Berlin (twitter.com/_/status/787981800341639168)
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Webrocker ha, already works
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sebilasse Does not work in Adium. Trying to switch to sl007 now …
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cweiske i guess fweil is florian weil; he is listed on https://indieweb.org/2016/D%C3%BCsseldorf/Guest_List
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Webrocker test
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@jkphl To be explicit: the @indiewebcamp hoodies won't be Berlin branded, so simply get one even if you don't attend! ?… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/788033361889624065 (twitter.com/_/status/788033361889624065)
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aaronpk !
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jkphl So, another announcment for the late shift / people outside Europe: I'll organize a batch of IWC hoodies to be available at the IWC Berlin. Not attending the Berlin event shouldn't stop you from getting one! ;) All the details to be found in the Wiki https://indieweb.org/2016/Berlin#IndieWebCamp_Hoodies
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@IndieWebCampDE Nochmal ausdrücklich: Die Hoodies werden NICHT Berlin-gebrandet sein — Nicht-Dabeisein ist also keine Ausrede ;)… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/788035386048151552 (twitter.com/_/status/788035386048151552)
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ben_thatmustbeme i want a hoodie!
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, also , aaronpk, i believe i am owed some webmention sticker!
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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jkphl ben_thatmustbeme: sure! pls just add yourself to the list on the wiki, thanks!
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ben_thatmustbeme lol, jkphl thanks, but I don't think i'll be in europe any time soon :)
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jkphl ben_thatmustbeme: no problem, i'm gonna mail it to you! it's all written in the wiki ...
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i was just seeing that.. hmmm
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ben_thatmustbeme now i just need to decide on a color
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jkphl if there are more orders from the US, i could also send them with one package and someone distributes them within the US. would probably be cheaper ... (but no idea what the customs think about it)
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Zegnat thinks his IRC is working again
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ben_thatmustbeme jkphl: updated
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jkphl ben_thatmustbeme: awesome! :)
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ben_thatmustbeme is there a min number you need to hit?
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jkphl ben_thatmustbeme: nope. but afaik they're going to be cheaper if we hit 30 or more ;)
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Zegnat reads "going to be cheaper" and braces himslf for the price he is going to see now
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Zegnat Oh, actually, that is an extremely fair price, well done jkphl!
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jkphl Zegnat: They're going to be € 29 each incl. 19% VAT
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jkphl Zegnat: You're welcome! ;)
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jkphl Zegnat: Please don't forget to add the colour you like
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ben_thatmustbeme the (including 19% VAT). does that mean the VAT is already included? or 29 + 19%
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Zegnat I will, I am currently checking their site to see if they have a size guide.
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Zegnat likes going oversized
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jkphl ben_thatmustbeme: The 19% are already included. Sending them to the US *might* even mean that I can skip the VAT for you
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jkphl ben_thatmustbeme: I'm not sure about that though, need to talk to my accountant. But I think so.
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ben_thatmustbeme oh wow
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Zegnat jkphl: you should be able to, I guess, if Tollwerk is buying the hoodies and then reselling them. Tollwerk would order without VAT from the printers and then can forego when charging American buyers.
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Zegnat Though of course: I-am-not-your-accountant, etc.etc.
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Zegnat marcthiele is here, jkphl is here. If sl007 hadn’t just quit the entire IWC Berlin crew would be in the channel
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marcthiele Hello.
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marcthiele Just checked numbers for Berlin. 40 registrations so far.
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marcthiele Great for that short time to register.
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marcthiele I will email them in a second to ask them to also add themselves to the wiki.
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Zegnat I am going to be really annoyed at not being there. Any news on a possible live-feed?
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jkphl Zegnat: I guess Mozilla will be well equipped, no?
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jkphl marcthiele: Awesome! :)
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Zegnat I think someone mentioned something, maybe aaronpk, about a streaming set-up available to Mozilla staff
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Zegnat sl007, do you remember?
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jkphl marchthiele: Please ask your newsletter recipients to also release their ticket in case they cannot attend. Would be sad to lock someone out just because the seats are all blocked ...
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Zegnat wonders if he would be locked out if he just walked in wearing his IWC shirt.
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jkphl Zegnat: yes, afaik all sales to outside the EU should be without VAT. but i'll ask about that again.
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aaronpk yes mozilla offices have a good video setup, but i don't know what it would take for us to be able to use it, you'd have to talk to the berlin office directly
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Zegnat jkphl, that’s also how I remember it, but I quickly dropped business administration in favour of macro economics so best to check with an actual accountant ;)
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sl007 zegnat: aaronpk: marcthiele: We can use it. I emailed for details on FRI. The only question so far was if also want to stream via Mozilla Air https://air.mozilla.org - suggestion? I said there is a youtube channel to PESOS
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Loqi sl007: tantek left you a message 2 weeks, 3 days ago: check out and add yourself and any details re: a possible IndieWebCamp Berlin to https://indieweb.org/Planning#Berlin (re: https://twitter.com/sl007/status/781795151215726593 )
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jkphl Zegnat: (y)
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Zegnat sl007, can you actually “live PESOS”, or will YouTube just host the archival version?
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aaronpk sl007: that's great! probably easiest to use their whole setup to reduce the number of moving parts. mozilla air will archive the video too IIRC
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/788057476029566976
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@kevinmarks “Inward-looking gravity wells (Facebook and the Chinese firewall) increasingly gobble up sites that link outwards…” https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-soviets-invented-the-internet-and-why-it-didn-t-work (twitter.com/_/status/788057476029566976)
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tantek good morning #indieweb!
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gRegorLove good morning, tantek
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Zegnat Morning tantek!
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Salt morning tantek
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@kevinmarks “Personalized Advertising is an Oxymoron” — @faris https://medium.com/@faris/personalized-advertising-is-an-oxymoron-77c95f608fb5%23---0-284.ylqqzxr9b #indieweb https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/788076178464710656/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/788076178464710656)
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sknebel morning everybody!
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Salt hi sknebel
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tantek Looks like Instagram now supports SWAT0 style Salmentions (being notified when someone comments on a photo that you're tagged in)
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tantek Screenshot coming up
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tantek kevimarks that's a good aeon piece
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tantek This quote: "The first global computer network emerged thanks to capitalists behaving like cooperative socialists, not socialists behaving like competitive capitalists."
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KevinMarks yes, I thought that was very interesting
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KevinMarks though I think what it misses is the idea of publication
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tantek indeed
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KevinMarks the soviet work was wrapped in secrecy, as was the UK work on packet switching
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KevinMarks the ARPAnet work was published
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tantek Might be worth your time reaching out to the author, as one "think piece" author to another, inviting him to check out indieweb, perhaps even come to IndieWebCamp LA (or Berlin)
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tantek https://petersbenjamin.wordpress.com/
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tantek he has a blogroll :)
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KevinMarks he moved hs blog, then stopped writing it
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tantek his author page on aeon still links to it
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KevinMarks i mean the blog link there points to his old blogspot blog which was moe active
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KevinMarks Tulsa is a long way from Berlin
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tantek sl007, Zegnat, jkphl, marcthiele et al - definitely ask your Moz Berlin contact to setup and schedule AirMo (air.mozilla.org) for the duration of IWC Berlin sessions
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tantek (archiving each session separately would be good, and if they have an AirMo person there, they can start/stop the stream and save accordingly. AirMo archives in a variety of formats and is quite long lived - doesn't depend on a YouTube Silo, ads, takedown TOS etc.)
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Zegnat To be fair, we don’t need to depend on YT silo either. We could mirror all the IWC talks on archive.org for free
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sl007 tantek: done -3 h - mhenretty@mozilla.com got the ball. Waiting for back pass.
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tantek sl007++ awesome
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Loqi sl007 has 1 karma
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tantek wat
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tantek new /nick ?
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ben_thatmustbeme Zegnat: thanks for the thought to compare the sizing guide on the site, sizes are very different than US sizes
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Zegnat ben_thatmustbeme, so many websites use different tshirts that I have learned to always look for size guides
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tantek clothing sizes reminds me of xkcd.com/927
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ben_thatmustbeme heh, "vanity sizing" they call it in some places
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funwhilelost Hey, guys. I've been using Known for quite a while but they're diverging a little from my "solo" use case. My ideal world would be in a "headless CMS with webmentions and a built in reader". Anything new in that realm?
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tantek funwhilelost: what happened to make you think they were diverging from a solo use case? just curious
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funwhilelost They made some public announcements on their Google Group that they're focused on education use-cases and they're committing most of their resources to that because it's profitable.
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funwhilelost They're making white-labeled Known communities for classrooms or special interest groups.
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funwhilelost Community development has stalled.
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funwhilelost (Contributions from the community, that is)
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tantek funwhilelost: then perhaps leave the Google Group to the education use-cases
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tantek and instead, hang out here, and in particular in #knownchat
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tantek where there are more of us "solo use-case" type folks
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funwhilelost Fair enough.
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tantek There's still community contributing going on on the github
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tantek e.g. filing issues, submitting pull requests
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tantek and AFAIK the Known folks are VERY open to such issues / submissions
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tantek checks for his most recent one
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funwhilelost I see the issue log now.
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gRegorLove What's meant by headless CMS?
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funwhilelost fwiw I've been waiting for "official" announcements of a new version and haven't seen one since 0.9.2 in April - which broke a couple extensions I like (Tracks and Markdown).
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tantek funwhilelost: here's an example of an issue I filed which I think applies to the solo use-case and got a positive response: https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/1547
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funwhilelost gRegorLove: I mean the admin/CMS side is run in a separate app and then the content is published statically to another host.
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tantek funwhilelost: did you file github issues about the extensions being broken?
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gRegorLove Ah, gotcha
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funwhilelost I +1'd on to a few pre-existing issues.
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funwhilelost tantek: what's your experience with running straight from master?
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tantek havent been running straight from master. have used hosted.
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funwhilelost Ah, I see.
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funwhilelost That's what's powering tantek.com?
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tantek no, it was an exploratory site. indieweb.org/Falcon is what is powering tantek.com
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KartikPrabhu what is falcon?
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KartikPrabhu oops
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tantek funwhilelost: I expect that Known will continue to support the solo use-case, if for no other reason than co-creator benwerd uses it himself for himself on his personal site werd.io
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tantek btw funwhilelost - go ahead an add yourself to /irc-people so your name in the logs shows up with your icon and links to your site! e.g. https://chat.indieweb.org/2016-10-17#t1476733560946000
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funwhilelost Hmm.. I'm already in there.
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funwhilelost Did I mark it up wrong?
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aaronpk oh dear. let me double check the logs are updating that list properly
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aaronpk wow it hasn't updated since july!
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[kevinmarks] Interesting warning on amp behaviour https://www.alexkras.com/google-may-be-stealing-your-mobile-traffic
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tantek what is AMP?
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Loqi Accelerated Mobile Pages (AMP) is a Google-led project that speeds up a subset of HTML through caching and dependencies on google: https://indieweb.org/AMP
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tantek KevinMarks_: ^^^ add to a Criticism section please!
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tantek Sounds like it might be time for a "Google AMP: The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly" blog post
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tantek (e.g. good: no JS bloat, bad: stealing traffic see above, ugly: JSONLD data islands)
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aaronpk what does AMP have to do with JSONLD?
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tantek aaronpk - oh boy - you missed the whole debate on github where the AMP "deciders" chose to make JSONLD the only way to put metadata into AMP pages
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aaronpk oh what
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tantek JSONLD data islands in particular
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tantek yeah, pretty cray
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aaronpk goes back to his micropub corner
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Zegnat ben_thatmustbeme, you have a FB message link using the FB protocol on your site. Does that protocol still work?
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tantek there's some weird JSONLD politicking going on in Google Search circles, where somehow they lost the institutional memory of how complex invisible metadata = bad/spam/broken/obsolete data
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tantek but yeah, the "serving from Google Cache, not your server" is a good reason to avoid AMP
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tantek might want to ping adactio about that (I think he supports AMP variants of his pages)
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Zegnat Didn’t KevinMarks also experiment with AMP versions?
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aaronpk that's not necessarily bad. like the author mentions, it takes load off his server.
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tantek Zegnat, don't know, try /AMP#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek aaronpk - keep reading, it basically hides UI to his server, and updates and such
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tantek it's bad caching
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tantek because Google provides no cache invalidation mechanism
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aaronpk yeah, those are things google can fix tho
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tantek therefore you cannot trust Google's cache
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tantek "can fix" = still broken today
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tantek the list of things Google "can fix" for years is too long to bother believing anything they "can fix"
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tantek Google Search in particular
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tantek Chrome is reasonable responsive to bug reports
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tantek BTW I'm reasonably happy with DuckDuckGo as my default search engine
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tantek (in Firefox)
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tantek loads faster than Google Search for me
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ben_thatmustbeme Zegnat as far as I knew it did, but I haven't checked in some time
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ben_thatmustbeme but I don't have the app installed
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Zegnat makes not to test
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Zegnat I am using the new m.me link for mine, and I thought that was the new way to go. But protocol might be preferable for mobile.
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[kevinmarks] I thought they took the ld out again. Or at least made it optional
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[kevinmarks] I t may be time for a "microformats and amp" essay
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tantek KevinMarks, last I heard from benatwork, the latest AMP just went with JSONLD-only. Happy to be corrected.
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tantek they did make it optional at one point, but then later after the initial debated died down decided to "simplify it" and "just" go with JSONLD
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tantek that's my understanding, like I said, please correct me if I missed something
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[kevinmarks] Oh, I missed that reopening.
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tantek I expect we'll see a growing amount of AMP metadata errors accordingly
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tantek kevinmarks, they can reopen anything for any new version, and you should expect folks that spend more time emailing / issueing (than building) to do so
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leitmedium d /close
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tantek Is there a name / phrase for the effect of 2-3x font-size for when a text message contains only emoji?
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[kevinmarks] Ah, it's the "including in search" part that that requires given schema types
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tantek E.g. FB Messenger has been doing this for some time (though I don't know where it started - curious who started the large emoji trend)
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tantek and now iOS 10 Messages does it too apparently (and it's annoying some folks I know)
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tantek I'm wondering if there's a name of this effect
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tantek like jumboji, enlarji, supersizeji etc.
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aaronpk !meme stop trying to make *ji happen | it's not going to happen [stop trying to make fetch jokes happen template]
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/m/4jrNKmWR.jpg
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bear I feel it started with slack - that's where I first saw it
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aaronpk slack calls is jumbomoji ?
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aaronpk https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/202931348-Emoji-and-emoticons
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aaronpk that's the first place i saw it with emoji. Facebook has had stickers for a while tho
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bear there is a quote in http://www.slashgear.com/pebble-major-update-jumbo-emojis-fresh-new-ios-app-08430560/ that reference "jumobji" for Pebble
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bear from March 8th 2016
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tantek aaronpk - you can blame Slack for trying to make *ji happen
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aaronpk oh no we're the top result for "reacji"
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tantek nice
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gRegorLove Found this Re: AMP metadata https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/pull/593
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gRegorLove tantek: I added a basic citation template. Would appreciate your feedback: https://indieweb.org/Template:citation
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tantek gRegorLove: yup, that github issue - I stopped after I explicit gave objective (fact based) critical feedback, was tone-policed in response, called out the tone-policing, was told "will strictly enforce a be-excellent-to-each-other code-of-conduct" which Interpreted as "here at Google all we really want are polite yes-men" and just gave up further responding.
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gRegorLove Yeah, read through that. Frustrating.
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tantek Also this: "a discussion that really had nobody really disagreeing heavily with each other" == echo chamber.
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tantek wow that was a year ago
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gRegorLove That's funny about irc-people not updating. Someone else recently didn't have their photo showing up even though they were listed; that explains it.
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aaronpk yeah oops
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tantek also this https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/pull/499
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tantek wherein aaronpk calls out the sockpuppet account https://github.com/amplesample and then gets tone-policed by cramforce just as I was
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tantek showing that the project maintainer does not actually appreciate having sockpuppet accounts being called out
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aaronpk i thought that thread looked familiar
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aaronpk oms "personal attacks"
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aaronpk i tried really hard to phrase that comment to avoid sounding like an attack
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tantek adds a few choice ? reacji to that thread
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funwhilelost TIL Github has sockpuppets trying to steer open source projects
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KevinMarks1 there's still https://googleweblight.com/?lite_url=https://www.ampproject.org
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KevinMarks1 (formerly google.com/gwt/n )
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gRegorLove I read that: Google We Blight