#indieweb 2016-10-22

2016-10-22 UTC
KevinMarks__, ricardokirkner, snarfed, snarfed1, Jammy_Stuff, KevinMarks, wolftune, bear, pindonga, KevinMarks_, smth[m]1, M-nd, M-rongladney, Leeky, andersju, tantek, strugee, AngeloGladding and sl007 joined the channel
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sl007 aaronpk: https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/778532518236610560 (21 SEP) Wondering what happened w. beeminder - in the microformats I can't find any rel="me". Is there a trick or did they change it ?
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@aaronpk Gave an unprepared live demo of https://indieauth.com/ at @w3c #tpac2016 and nothing broke ? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cs3nMs3UIAADPXZ.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/778532518236610560)
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@kevinmarks How about this as a logo for http://svgshare.com aka http://svgur.com http://svgshare.com/s/E2 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/789751124240703488)
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Loqi [indieweb] "How about this as a logo for svgshare.com aka svgur.com http://svgshare.com/s/E2 #indieweb" by Kevin Marks on 2016-10-22 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/how-about-this-as-a-logo-for-svgsharecom-aka-svgurcom
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KevinMarks so is svgshare.com a better name than svgur.com ?
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KartikPrabhu what is granary
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Loqi granary is a library and REST API that frees you from social network API chaff and and exposes the sweet social data foodstuff inside as HTML and JSON with microformats2, ActivityStreams, Atom, XML, and more https://indieweb.org/granary
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@nymnotinservice … and doing "PESOS" like this seems a pretty awful choice when "POSSE" possible: https://indieweb.org/PESOS https://indieweb.org/POSSE @mmn (twitter.com/_/status/789839233192194049)
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aaronpk sl007: they just launched a redesign so i'm guessing something changed
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sknebel What's the relationship between the newly published W3C PubSub draft and PuSH/PubSubHubbub?
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miklb pretty sure same thing, just renamed
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aaronpk yep
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sknebel k, thx
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aaronpk https://aaronparecki.com/2016/10/20/5/pubsub
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] PubSubHubbub is now known as PubSub, and has been adopted by the @W3C! https://www.w3.org/TR/pubsub/ Congrats @julien51!
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sknebel Do I just add a note to the wiki page or should it be renamed and redirected?
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aaronpk i guess it can be moved!
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GWG I'd say move and redirect Hubbub
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ChrisAldrich That is great news about PubSub, especially the shortening --like Dr. Joseph Dolan and Babar, I could never remember if it was one "b" or two.
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GWG Hello, ChrisAldrich
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ChrisAldrich Afternoon GWG!
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GWG Getting progressively excited.
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GWG ?
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GWG That was meant to be a question, excuse me.
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ChrisAldrich I've been excited since May!
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GWG Me too
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GWG Although I have to go sign up for SuperShuttle to the hotel when I arrive.
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GWG I nearly had to change my plans. My boss wanted me to stop somewhere on the way, but he put it off.
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ChrisAldrich I was looking through the backgrounds of some of those RSVPd for IWC-LA and there are some really interesting folks.
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ChrisAldrich You're getting in late at night right?
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GWG I need to do that. But I've been working on cleaning my desk. Will take a moment.
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GWG ChrisAldrich: More like early morning. It's post midnight
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ChrisAldrich If you do look through them, it's pretty easy to go through the silo'd RSVPs, particularly on Meetup.com.
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ChrisAldrich Has anyone else been POSSEing events stuff out to Meetup.com?
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ChrisAldrich I haven't noticed it yet, and am still evaluating the value.
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ChrisAldrich Though it does seem to at least put the concept out to a slightly larger group of people. Not sure about the actual engagement there yet.
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GWG ChrisAldrich: If you end up recruiting a lot of WordPress people, I have no problem helping them update their sites as opposed to a new project.
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ChrisAldrich That's kind of what I'm thinking of, though there are a few I've started helping out already.
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GWG I haven't done anything Indieweb in a few days because I've been busy with other things. Like cleaning my desk. So I may not have anything new to show anyway.
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ChrisAldrich I've been doing a lot of work/work and organizing lately and haven't had much time to do anything else.
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ChrisAldrich I'm spending a few minutes today which of the 100s of things I want to work on next.
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GWG ChrisAldrich: Only 100s?
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GWG I also have been slipping things into WordPress Core. I have my Ping hat on, so to speak.
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GWG WordPress 4.7 will have the most contributions by me so far, even though all are minor.
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ChrisAldrich I got a lot of ideas at the Dodging the Memory Hole conference recently particularly around archiving, but those are going to take some research and experimenting.
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ChrisAldrich GWG: You're right that it >>100s, but saying it outloud is depressing.
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GWG ChrisAldrich: I studied Archives and Records Management in school. I love talking about Archiving.
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ChrisAldrich This archive conference was pretty cool. Lots of librarians and researchers, but few technologists.
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GWG I would have enjoyed it though. I love talking to Librarians who care about those things.
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ChrisAldrich I recorded most of the sections on audio and they did video/audio of most of it themselves.
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GWG ChrisAldrich: Is there a list of sessions online that can be seen? Might watch some of them.
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ChrisAldrich https://www.rjionline.org/dtmh2016
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ChrisAldrich Scanning the schedule may help.
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ChrisAldrich It was nice to have a few guys from the Internet Archive/Wayback machine and the Library of Congress there.
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ChrisAldrich The Wayback machine was supposed to be unveiling some cool new stuff this week. Need to see what it was.
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ChrisAldrich The conference made me make a list of a lot of my web social stuff so I can try to go back and try to own/archive it. http://boffosocko.com/2016/10/17/how-many-social-media-related-accounts-can-one-person-have-on-the-web/
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Loqi [Chris Aldrich] How many social media related accounts can one person have on the web?! http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/d5fb4e498fe609cc29b04e5b7ad688c4?s=42&d=mm&r=pg
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ChrisAldrich Most of what I wrote about it (and the audio) can be found here: http://boffosocko.com/?s=dodging+the+memory+hole (You should be able to strip the audio for podcasting purposes (with Huffduffer maybe) and listen to them on the flight to LA?)
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tantek good afternoon #indieweb!
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tantek two weeks to IWC LA and Berlin!
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GWG tantek: Where will you be?
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tantek LA, with adactio
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GWG I will see you there
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tantek awesome
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ChrisAldrich Don't forget to RSVP :)
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ChrisAldrich Tantek: It'll be not only my first IWC, but my first bar-camp, so don't be too tough on us. ;)
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GWG I added myself to the Guest list, but I'll do an Indie-RSVP as some point.
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ChrisAldrich That reminds me that I don't think Shane's original IndiePost actually accepts/displays webmentions.
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miklb iMHO for a true bar camp all you need an inviting room, electricity and internet. everything else is gravy ;-)
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tantek ChrisAldrich is there an Indie Event for it that receives and shows Indie RSVPs?
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tantek if not, time to post one, and I think you can do that with Known
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ChrisAldrich I'm putting it together as we speak.
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tantek hey aaronpk, do you know of a handy simple site that converts lat long between DMS(d) and DM(d) and D(d) where (d) indicates a decimal value of the last value?
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tantek finds http://www.latlong.net/degrees-minutes-seconds-to-decimal-degrees
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Loqi [indieweb] "IndieWebCamp Los Angeles 2016" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-10-22 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/indiewebcamp-los-angeles-2016
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ChrisAldrich RSVP away...
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GWG Okay. Supershuttle booked from LAX to hotel. That leaves one thing on the agenda.
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GWG Plan Thursday and Friday activities.
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KartikPrabhu what is Push?
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Loqi PubSub, also known as PubSubHubbub or PuSH is a notification-based protocol for publishing and subscribing to streams and legacy feed files in real time https://indieweb.org/PuSH
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KartikPrabhu is still very confused about the PuSH stuff
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KartikPrabhu spec says "[...] decentralized pubsub protocol. Anybody can play." however I am finding no list of "hubs" except Superfeedr mentioned in https://indieweb.org/How_to_publish_and_consume_PubSubHubbub
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KartikPrabhu looks very centralised to me as compared to "polling"
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KartikPrabhu then spec also says "As in almost all pubsub systems, the publisher is unaware of the subscribers, if any" but https://indieweb.org/How_to_publish_and_consume_PubSubHubbub says about Superfeedr "If you register your own hub at Superfeedr, you will also get access to information such as the subscribers to each of your topic URLs"
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KartikPrabhu so the only hub implementation mentioned on the wiki seems to violate the spec
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KartikPrabhu maybe the wiki is out-of-date
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sknebel KartikPrabhu: providing extra information isn't necessarily violating the spec
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sknebel but yes, superfeeder seemed to be the only "hosted" option
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KartikPrabhu sknebel: hosted as in "as a service"?
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sknebel I think cweiske wrote a selfhosted hub
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sknebel yes
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KartikPrabhu I don't see the advantage of self-hosted hubs vs polling
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KevinMarks There is a Google hub
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aaronpk and i made one
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aaronpk in fact that page links to a few https://indieweb.org/PuSH#Hubs
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aaronpk it's not centralized because the publisher points to whatever hub they want
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aaronpk the consumer is expected to use the hub that the publisher points to
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aaronpk there's even a wordpress plugin that turns the wordpress blog itself into a hub
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KevinMarks There is an idea of chaining hubs
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aaronpk wat
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KevinMarks Though not sure if that ended up being needed
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KartikPrabhu right, I can see "hub as service" being useful but why is self-hosted hubs better than polling like the Wordpress case
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aaronpk self-hosted hubs still give you the benefit of avoiding polling
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KevinMarks Because you don't poll, but have a webhook
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GWG aaronpk: I'm not sure how updated it is.
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aaronpk it says it supports 0.4
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aaronpk which is the latest
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KevinMarks So instead of everyone polling you every hour, you call them in order once you have posted
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KartikPrabhu right, but say I have a self-hosted pub, then as I update some content, all of the subcribers get notifications almost simultaneously. but on polling the traffic is more or less randomly timed no?
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KevinMarks Though without fat pings they are still going to fetch the post
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KartikPrabhu i mean is the "avoid polling" argument
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: you can always choose to ping your subscribers at whatever interval you want
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KartikPrabhu for traffic?
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aaronpk s/you/the hub
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aaronpk for any reason
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KevinMarks If your subscribers are polling you every hour, but you update once a day, less traffic
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KevinMarks You can 304 them usually, but it's still traffic
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KevinMarks If the hub tells them, they will then fetch the post
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KevinMarks So you can prep the cache, and ping them and have it be quick
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KartikPrabhu Is the "polling is bad reason" list somewhere?
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KartikPrabhu afaik subscribers mostly being "legacy feed readers" don't do that. They update polling times relative to the publication frequency
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aaronpk https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/wiki/Why-Polling-Sucks
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KartikPrabhu in fact even Bridgy changes its polling frequency based on posting frequency
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: thanks, but that link does not actually explain "why" it is bad
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aaronpk i dunno, it's been the motivation of PubSub ever since it was born
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KartikPrabhu it basically states what polling is and then says "This sucks."
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KartikPrabhu yeah i understand that is the motivation, but I don't get it
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aaronpk at the very least, polling is bad because it won't get you to realtime messages
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aaronpk if we want indieweb things to be as realtime as twitter and facebook we can't rely on polling
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KartikPrabhu right, which is a good argument for "hubs as service" but self-hosted I don't see
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aaronpk i don't understand why you see a difference there
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aaronpk PubSub enables realtime feeds, whether or not the hub is self-hosted or a service
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KartikPrabhu If I have a 10k followers (going with the twitter analogy) they'll all fetch my post almost simultaneously which is probably not good for my server
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sknebel that happens in both cases
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KevinMarks It's also a replacement for ping servers, which didn't scale
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: that's not an argument against PubSub, that's the fat vs thin ping debate within PubSub
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KevinMarks They will only do that if you call their webhooks simultaneously
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aaronpk and yes also that
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sknebel with your own hub you could space pings out if you wanted (loosing some real-time aspect)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: but for "realtime notifications" i would have to right? or atleast within seconds
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KevinMarks If you call them in chunks and the calling is multiplexed with the post server, it will even out
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: the "How to PuSH" page doesn't talk about fat pings, but you might want to read about that in the spec itself
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KevinMarks Also, you should be able to cache most recent post in ram so it is bandwidth limited not db query limited
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: that also works for legacy/h-feed pages
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KartikPrabhu the "fat ping" thing might be better than polling
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sknebel another way to think about it is: you get a tool to control when your readers poll your site
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aaronpk sknebel++
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Loqi sknebel has 14 karma (10 in this channel)
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KartikPrabhu sknebel: yeah I get that, but I am wondering whether I need it for anything
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aaronpk the main user-facing difference it will make is the realtimeyness of people following your feeds
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yeah I think that is much more compelling argument rather than "polling sucks"
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