#indieweb 2016-11-23

2016-11-23 UTC
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Loqi
[indieweb] "I've been poking around your site, after trying to get my head around webmentions for Grav. We share an interest in baking and podcasts, but" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2016-11-22 https://vaviblog.com/2016/ive-been-poking-around-your-site-after-trying-to-get
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GWG
Evening, Campers
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@kevinmarks
A face detection api in the browser? Interesting #indieweb applications there: https://paul.kinlan.me/face-detection/
(twitter.com/_/status/801240777393197056)
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Loqi
[indieweb] "A face detection api in the browser? Interesting #indieweb applications there: https://paul.kinlan.me/face-detection/" by Kevin Marks on 2016-11-23 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/a-face-detection-api-in-the-browser-interesting-indieweb-applications
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ben_thatmustbeme
The share button option already makes me so much more likely to reply to things
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TheGillies
Only one webmention on http://tyler.cat/post/league-of-extraordinary-websites/ heh not much of a league yet
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Loqi
TheGillies: KevinMarks_ left you a message 7 hours, 51 minutes ago: I made an indieweb friendly Hugo template for lifewithalacrity.com - have you done something similar?
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Loqi
Ok so I’m making this post to advocate what I’m calling The League of Extraordinary Websites. Essentially what this is, is a pact, where each member of the league tries to be interoperable with every other website in the league. We then post our ...
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TheGillies
!tell kevinmarks I hacked one I got off the internet to talk to webmention.io
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks
Have a look at what I did with the theme for microformats
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Loqi
KevinMarks: TheGillies left you a message 1 hour, 5 minutes ago: I hacked one I got off the internet to talk to webmention.io
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KevinMarks
The partials in Hugo make it a bit of a faff to do
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KevinMarks_
Also, the inheritance model makes it a bit unclear where you should put the site specific stuff rather than the template
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sl007
"Establishing and promoting social businesses using digital technologies in an international context." - A barcamp in Bangladesh and Dortmund : https://jetechao.com/event/1059/yde-camp-2016
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Zegnat
Good morning from Nürnberg
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Loqi
[Jeremy Cherfas] I'm still not sure I understand the full extent of interoperability in this context. And I do not have full access to all the bells and whistles that make this site work, or the knowledge to use them if I did have. But the idea sounds like a good one...
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Zegnat
[jeremycherfas]: you should put an exclamation mark before tell: !tell
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Zegnat
Alright. Productive day. I can now edit posts on my site
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[jeremycherfas]
Thanks @zegnat. Slowly learning my way around.
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@nueww
In netter Gesellschaft an deiner Website basteln? Das geht. Heute Abend um 6 beim Homebrew Website Club @tollwerk. #indieweb #NUEWW
(twitter.com/_/status/801394880274534401)
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@thorgnyr
Working on #indieweb'ify my online presence. My approach is using Git, Git-ftp and Hugo (static site gen.). Cc. @brennannovak
(twitter.com/_/status/801418821303201792)
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ben_thatmustbeme
good morning #indieweb
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Zegnat
Good morning ben_thatmustbeme
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Zegnat
Is Nürnberg the only HWC today?
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Zegnat
Does this qualify as Indieweb’ing in 2008? Replying to someone else’s blogpost with a blogpost: http://www.shauninman.com/archive/2008/05/08/iht_reinventing_the_widont
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miklb
that's what trackbacks/pingbacks were all about then
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Zegnat
I am not even sure if any of them actually ran trackbacks/pingbacks on their sites. I just randomly bumped into this and thought (with its @-marker) it was extremely close to what we are doing.
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miklb
well, yeah, but blogging "back then" was often in response to other blog posts and cross linking
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miklb
pre Twitter/FB
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miklb
Mind you, that post with the @ was probably influenced by the use of @'s in Twitter
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Zegnat
Oh yes, very probable, I just like it when I find prior-art to what we are trying to "bring back"
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Loqi
zegnat has 25 karma in this channel (27 overall)
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tantek
good morning #indieweb!
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tantek
catches up on logs
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tantek
glad to see Zegnat made it to Nürnberg!
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ben_thatmustbeme
good morning tantek
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tantek
miklb, Zegnat indeed (re: @) and before Twitter, people were doing it in Flickr and MySpace too (even though it never linked to anything)
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Zegnat
Hello tantek :)
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Zegnat
Do we store examples of that somewhere on the wiki? Where I could add Shaun’s blogpost?
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Zegnat
And yes, made it to Nürnberg. And I have set some goals for this HWC! https://licit.li
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tantek
I thought we did
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tantek
but not sure
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tantek
also not sure what to make this re: HTTPS https://twitter.com/glenngabe/status/801408527759720448
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@glenngabe
HTTPS migrations are easy, right? Came across this today. This is how every url resolves on the site. Looks like th… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/801408527759720448
(twitter.com/_/status/801408527759720448)
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Zegnat
I guess he means they just swapped "http" for "https" in all their links, without actually configuring certs?
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Zegnat
Getting HWC started over here! :) Where are you at, sknebel? ;)
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sknebel
sitting at home, looking at your website ;)
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julianf
Hello, IW.
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Zegnat
Hi julianf
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Zegnat
Have you subscribed to my website yet, sknebel? ;)
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julianf
On the train to Homebrew Website Club, Birmingham UK.
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Zegnat
Birmingham is on today?
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Zegnat
what is next-hwc?
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Zegnat
Birmingham isn’t on :o
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Zegnat
If you can, julianf, please add Birmingham to the page
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Zegnat
Thank you!
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Zegnat
Don’t forget to get us a picture, julianf :) I am guessing jkphl is taking one of the group here
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julianf
How do I format a reference to myself (I have a user page /User:Julian.foad.me.uk) in {{}} in the RSVP section?
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julianf
Just tried 'julianf' and 'julianfoad' and 'Julian.foad.me.uk' but the preview doesn't indicate they work... or doesn't the preview expand template references?
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Zegnat
They aren’t generated on the fly, we have all created our own wiki templates
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julianf
Huh. So as well as an entry in /irc-people and a user page, I need a third thing? :-/
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Zegnat
You don’t *need* a wiki template
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Zegnat
aaronpk, tantek, would there be a way to auto-generate those people-templates?
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julianf
OK, added a template; thanks Zegnat. Used it to add my RSVP.
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Zegnat
nice!
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julianf
General question/thoughts: Matrix.
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Zegnat
julianf++
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Loqi
julianf has 1 karma
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Zegnat
what is matrix?
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julianf
It looks to me like Matrix is a much better fit for IW principles than most other things (GNU social, Mattermost, ...).
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julianf
I wonder, do others agree, and if so should we be trying to support and encourage it? That's how it seems to me.
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sknebel
Matrix looks interesting, yes.
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sknebel
haven't tried it yet, it's on the long list of things to do ;)
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sknebel
I think there is a public freenode bridge, so it should be compatible with this channel from the get-go
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julianf
I recently started trying out UBOS (formerly IndieBox). UBOS website has no integration between IRC mailinglists and archiving of content (no IRC logs) and I suggested using something like Mattermost or Matrix for their own site.
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julianf
I'm wondering the same about indieweb.org.
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julianf
Is the desire to run one's own combination of tools stronger than the drive to use something like Matrix and perhaps encxourage other IW-like projects to use it too and work together to improve its interoperability?
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julianf
(Possible other projects that might be friendly to cooperate: UBOS; Matrix itself and some of its client & server projects; some things at Mozilla; Dowse.eu; for a start.)
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julianf
I'm feeling like it might be possible to get a bigger "push" behind such a system, if it truly seems to be going in the right direction, by sharing some of the effort of setting up a few instances.
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julianf
I'm feeling like it might be possible to get a bigger "push" behind such a system, if it truly seems to be going in the right direction, by sharing some of the effort of setting up a few instances.
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julianf
(sorry, dup)
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julianf
Like... I'd like to set up my own instance, but haven't much time to dedicate to doing it myself with all the trial-and-error that I know it would require.
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Zegnat
How much of Matrix is just communication, versus actual websites though?
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sknebel
if I understand it, closest to Matrix is XMPP/Jabber
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sknebel
in that there is a federation of servers that users register at and connect to using local clients
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julianf
But if someone -- whether individuals or iw.org as a group -- would be setting it up at the same time, and maybe one or two or three or more of us individuals too -- then perhaps that "League of Extraordinary Websites" could be partly kick-started this way.
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Zegnat
I wonder if IW is the place to push those protocols, versus HTTP protocols.
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Zegnat
But that was a discussion had at IWC Berlin too, IIRC
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Zegnat
Wouldn’t the league be there in a “more IW” way if we get more people to start on Known instead of WordPress?
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julianf
Matrix, as I understand it, has the comms plus a strong notion of permanent content (chat threads) which can be distributed.
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Zegnat
What is permanence?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "permanence" yet. Would you like to create it?
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Zegnat
Permanence is the idea of keeping content around even after the originator might no longer be available.
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Zegnat
Please edit that page, permanence is always an interesting item.
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tantek
well we have /longevity
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julianf
+1 for advocating Known over WP, yes, too, but that's not an IRC/mailinglist/forum system.
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tantek
permanence << [[longevity]]
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Loqi
There was an error: Array
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tantek
gives Loqi an error: Array
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Loqi
hearts the error: Array
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tantek
apparently
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tantek
julianf - I don't understand your question about Matrix and indieweb. What about Matrix is "web"?
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julianf
What I'm observing is that while there are many silo-like open-source chat/communication systems (Mattermost, GNU-social, ...) only a very few seem to take the approach of designing a federation model and APIs. Tent was one, but seems to be falling behind, last time I looked.
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julianf
tantek: Do you mean how is it "web" as in web-of-hyperlinks?
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sknebel_matrix_t
hi via matrix bridge :)
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Zegnat
tantek, didn’t we have a text on the wiki somewhere on why the bar is high for joining the indieweb? (E.g. owning a domain etc.)
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sknebel_matrix_t
and apparently some people already use #indieweb via matrix, which I never even noticed before
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Zegnat
I seem to recall reading it at one of the last IWCs, but I cant find it anymore.
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Zegnat
No, sknebel, I recall reading a page somewhere with the “reason” for having these hurdles.
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aaronpk
What is IndieWeb?
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Loqi
The IndieWeb is about owning your domain and using it as your primary identity, to publish on your own site (optionally syndicate elsewhere), and ownyourdata https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb
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julianf
On my personal web site I want to be able to set up, easily, things like: an IRC-like system, especially one for private use by friends and family, privately archived and not publically accessible. Similarly for other styles of communication. Yet able to join in with public comms when wanted.
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sknebel_matrix_t
julianf: I'm not sure you need a large push to get started on Matrix -> at least initially you can use "public" servers and interfaces like I'm doing right now -> no need to set anything up
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aaronpk
Theres certainly overlap in the concepts of self hosting tools, but Matrix isn't really "webby" so it's kind of a separate thing than IndieWeb. Certainly there's a lot of good things about Matrix especially compared to other chat systems. But I'm not aware of anyone using Matrix to host their website for example
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Zegnat
aaronpk putting my thoughts down in words better than I was doing
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julianf
sknebel_matrix_t: By "push" I mean, if you agree it's doing good work in making a truly decentralized "host-your-own-part-if-you-wish" work, then let's use it here (and yes then I'll try to do my part and use it personally) and help others to use it, and then we'll be able to help get relevant IW standards integrated in it where appropriate etc.
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julianf
I totally don't think it's aimed at hosting a "web site", only at hosting the chatty parts of one's own web presence (~"site").
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aaronpk
julianf: this chat room is available via a web interface on indieweb.org, IRC on Freenode, and Slack. It's also possible to join via Matrix as sknebel_matrix_t demonstrated, so I think that's about all one can hope for in that regard!
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julianf
(I appreciate all your thoughts, BTW.)
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julianf
aaronpk: It's great that this chat room is so widely available. It's high time I found out what system it's running, so I can compare.
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julianf
(Apologies if it seems rude not to have found out yet._
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julianf
(Have to go offline for half hour.)
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julianf
(At station.)
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aaronpk
The website and Slack bridge is done with a home-grown tool available here https://github.com/indieweb/chat.indieweb.org https://github.com/aaronpk/Slack-IRC-Gateway
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tantek
tries to re-read logs
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tantek
julianf, chat != web
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tantek
that's the larger point here
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tantek
chat is ephemeral, the web persists because things (statements, posts, etc.) have HTTP URLs that people can share to refer to them
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tantek
whereas chat systems in general do not care about such (persistent) references
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tantek
ironically, I feel like we have had this discussion a few times, but have no idea where it was (is?) captured
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Zegnat
snarfed, if you are reading, someone here wonders how long it will take for the first flickr like to get through
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tantek
though the last time I remember an indepth discussion of this was arguing with the XMPP advocates (and projects that use it) that XMPP was a non-starter in terms of a federated social *web* (2010 FSWS discussions)
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snarfed
snarfed: you're talking about bridgy?
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snarfed
tell them to click the "Poll now" button on their user page :P
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tantek
and that was before Google dropped XMPP support
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Zegnat
I’ll tell them
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Zegnat
snarfed: they are saying poll now works, but that automatic doesn’t always seem to work. But that might just be a feeling they are having.
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snarfed
automatic isn't immediate, it's periodic, since it polls
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Zegnat
snarfed: when a webmention fails, can we see why?
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snarfed
Zegnat: yes, click the "X minutes ago" link for raw logs
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Zegnat
thanks again! Hahaha, I do not actually use bridgy myself so I am happy to relay the questions ;)
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Loqi
ahaha
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snarfed
tell them to get on irc! :P
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tantek
Zegnat, so you're like a bridge for bridgy is what you're saying
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tantek
photo!
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Zegnat
I am a flesh-IRC-bridge
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tantek
Zegnat, tell jkphl to get on IRC more often!
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tantek
and everyone else in Nürnberg :P
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aaronpk
or slack ;-)
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tantek
I mean, at least as much as they're on Twitter :P :P
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tantek
per that previous conversation we had
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bjoern
tantek: jkphl looks a bit annoyed right now :)
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tantek
Zegnat, ask everyone in the room at HWC Nürnberg when they will post notes/tweets on their own site before/instead of Twitter (by end of year?)
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tantek
Anyone want to commit to doing that 100% starting 2017-01-01?
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tantek
come on now!
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tantek
(of those that use Twitter obv)
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jkphl
hello from hwc nuremberg, hi tantek! ;)
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tantek
jkphl++ :D
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Loqi
jkphl has 18 karma
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bjoern
hey, I'm already using my own Known site and cross-post to Twitter :)
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tantek
bjoern++
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Loqi
bjoern has 1 karma
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tantek
bjoern - 100%? or only sometimes?
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tantek
do you still natively post to Twitter only ever?
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tantek
bjoren, if you're doing it 100%, add yourself to https://indieweb.org/ownyourdata#IndieWeb_Examples :)
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bjoern
tantek: 100% for my own posts and replies. For likes/retweets i use the native twitter functions.
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tantek
bjoern - that's ok to distinguish like that - see my entry for example
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tantek
I started with notes, then replies a few years later, then favorites a few years after that
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jkphl
tantek: i'm afraid i've still got a looooong way to go until i'm really ready for posting status messages to my own site. but i'll do my best to start sometime during 2017!
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tantek
bjoern, feel free to copy paste from https://indieweb.org/ownyourdata#Tantek
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tantek
great that sounds like a 2017 commitment!
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tantek
what are 2017-01-01-commitments?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "2017-01-01-commitments" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek
2017-01-01-commitments are implementation and launch commitments publicly made by the IndieWeb community to ship on their personal sites by 2017-01-01 00:00 local time
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bjoern
tantek: thanks, will do
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jkphl
you've got my word, tantek! ;)
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tantek
what is 2017-01-01
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "2017-01-01" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk
hmm what should mine be
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Zegnat
I am also wondering about mine...
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aaronpk
reviews itches
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aaronpk
checkins would be a huge one
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tantek
OMS ok I have to writeup that brainstorm on location of vs at then
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tantek
and p-checkin
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tantek
ok who is next?
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tantek
jkphl: ask around the room! what are people's indieweb commitments to launch on their site 2017-01-01?
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Zegnat
I’ll see if there are any commitments I can copy from someone
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[sebsel]
Oh, I’m not in Nurnberg, but I will make that commitment.
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tantek
sebsel - which commitment? I think you need to state it in full here in IRC for yourself just to be sure :)
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[sebsel]
let me formulate then
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ben_thatmustbeme
well i've started to move all my code under its new names
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sknebel
inklings, that's clever :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
learned to use inkscape to make my own icons too
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ben_thatmustbeme
thanks sknebel
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Zegnat
needs to learn to use inkscape for icons
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ben_thatmustbeme
you can lear a lot on youtube for it
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Zegnat
I now have permalinks, yeey, haha
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Loqi
Zegnat: lol
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sknebel
Zegnat: now my feedreader (inoreader via https://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/ ) recognizes that there are distinct posts :)
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sknebel
Zegnat++
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Loqi
zegnat has 26 karma in this channel (28 overall)
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tantek
what is inoreader
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "inoreader" yet. Would you like to create it?
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Zegnat
sknebel, I wonder if it needed permalinks for that, or just uids
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[sebsel]
Via quill btw.
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tantek
sebsel++ AWESOME!
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Loqi
sebsel has 1 karma
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[sebsel]
Especially the second point, re-importing my tweets with ‘u-syndication’-links on them, and the 2016-tweets for the first time… that one I keep postponing. But not this year!
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tantek
yes that would be a huge win as well! also a good way to show others how to do it
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Zegnat
[sebsel], you should add yourself to /silo-quits, since you have left facebook back in 2014!
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tantek
definitely
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tantek
had to beat Loqi to the punch
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tantek
gives Loqi a race to the punch
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Loqi
enjoys the race to the punch
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Zegnat
sknebel, could you see if inoreader still understands https://licit.li ? I took out u-url and added a static u-uid. But I am guessing that is a no-go.
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sknebel
let me see if I can convince it to refetch
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sknebel
Zegnat no that doesn'T work
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sknebel
all have <id>http://licit.li</id> in the atom-version
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Zegnat
That sounds wrong. I would have thought it to pick-up on p-uid
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sknebel
seems like that's something the converter can't deal with
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Zegnat
Granary does not seem to pick up on p-uid either
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Zegnat
Maybe I am upsetting parsers again by switching pre-fixes all mf2 style
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Zegnat
I am tempted to leave it like this but lets just put it back to working state
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Zegnat
You can subscribe again, hehe
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Zegnat
Now HWC is coming to an end and I am heading home with someone who has offered me a bed :)
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Zegnat
Until later!
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tantek
Zegnat - any goofie animated gif from HWC Nürnberg?
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Zegnat
still needs editing
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Zegnat
jules says hi
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tantek
yay! :D say hello from me too :)
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tantek
and Loqi ^^^
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb marcjenkins: Hi, my site's built on WordPress, it's been Jekyll/Kirby and other things but went back to WordPress afterwards
(twitter.com/_/status/801503285169582080)
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb marcjenkins: I'm new to the Indieweb but owning my own content is what brought me to it, preserving my own content
(twitter.com/_/status/801503433228427264)
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb genzographics: My site's built with WordPress, using a default theme, it's a holding page for now
(twitter.com/_/status/801503990924058624)
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[sebsel]
It feels strange to add myself to a list where Neil Geiman is on, but hey… I added myself to /silo-quits :)
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[sebsel]
I hope I can find an old blogpost in my archives to repost. But I believe I went silently.
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[sebsel]
Lot of people leave loud and then re-enter a few weeks after.
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snarfed
Zegnat: you want u-uid, not p-uid. and granary definitely supports it. http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Core_Properties
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] h-entry is a simple, open format for episodic or datestamped content on the web. h-entry is often used with content intended to be syndicated, e.g. blog posts. h-entry is one of several open microformat standards suitable for embedding data in HTML/H...
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tantek
sebsel, you could post about it as an anniversary if you know the exact date. e.g. (2 years since I left FB)
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @julianfoad: I set up WordPress to try it out this year. I want to own my own content and want it to be interoperable with others
(twitter.com/_/status/801505624601362432)
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[sebsel]
Yeah, I just found the mail they send you after you deactivate. It was 09-09. A good day to do something like that. But then I missed it for this year!
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @elaptics: My site's built on Foxpro, turned up to HBB to have accountability to others for adding content to my own site
(twitter.com/_/status/801505994689937416)
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[sebsel]
But i’ll post a memo to myself for next september.
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @_joshhillier: My website is built on nothing. I don't post much. (analogy about the carpenter's kids having rubbish shoes)
(twitter.com/_/status/801506387956269063)
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @_joshhillier: I'm going to rebuild it by Christmas (didn't specify which Christmas)
(twitter.com/_/status/801506569955508226)
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @state_media: I have a website floating around somewhere, I'm here for the beer (turned up to wrong homebrew meetup)
(twitter.com/_/status/801507345759141888)
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @sil: I like the idea behind this IndieWeb thing.
(twitter.com/_/status/801507443666780160)
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @sil: My site's got webmentions on it because I'm ahead of the curve
(twitter.com/_/status/801507528257503234)
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @rythie: I use Octopress for my blog and I've recently added HTTPS to it. I'm working on adding stats to it
(twitter.com/_/status/801508011533598726)
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @rythie: and making it look like a web app.
(twitter.com/_/status/801508069897338891)
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @paul_tibbetts: My website is paultibbetts.uk, it's on WordPress but I think I've convinced myself I need to build my own thing
(twitter.com/_/status/801509415811710976)
KevinMarks, KevinMarks_ and tantek joined the channel
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @sil: You can use https://brid.gy/ to looki for mentions of your site on Facebook/Twitter so you can get comments from them
(twitter.com/_/status/801511347024494597)
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @sil: I like how there's lots of interconnected things that work together to do this stuff
(twitter.com/_/status/801512494430830593)
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @sil: My site's built with Pelican (flat file) but I use a thing on Heroku to fetch my webmentions
(twitter.com/_/status/801512699121303552)
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miklb
would be curious how marcjenkins went from static to WP. Did he find an importer?
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @sil: It's a bit like a rube goldberg machine, but I didn't have to write the extra complicated stuff
(twitter.com/_/status/801512829484404736)
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masoud
Hi there. First time joining here. https://masoud.abkenar.net/ I just put rel=me links in my website. Do you think this is a proper patch to indiwebify this Pelican theme?
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masoud
Or it can be enhaced? I read somewhere about h-cards. Not sure how to use it and how it could help.
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KartikPrabhu
masoud: if you want them in the head, you might want to use <link> instead of <a>
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KartikPrabhu
also welcome
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addal
I'm not sure why you hid them, the idea is the embed microformats in content that is already on the page
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addal
It looks like the theme has icons for social media, those can be rel=me links :)
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masoud
@KartikPrabhu Oh I see! I will fix that. Thank you!
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KartikPrabhu
masoud: also Addal is right, if there are already "social media" links in the actual content, you could add rel-me to them directly instead of duplicating it in the head
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masoud
@addal I have removed the social media links from my own page. That's why.
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masoud
And I have blogs in subfolders on which I'd like to use webmentions and stuff.
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masoud
which brings me to another question: is it enough to have rel=me links on the home page, and have blogs in subfolders without rel=me links? In this case, https://masoud.abkenar.net/blog/fa/
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gRegorLove
Hi masoud. rel-me links on the homepage only should be fine. You can try signing in to the wiki using your domain now, if you haven't already
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gRegorLove
What is Pelican?
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Loqi
Pelican is a Python-based static site generator https://indieweb.org/Pelican
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gRegorLove
masoud: There's some examples on that page ^ including a modified theme with h-card
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masoud
Wow guys. Thank you! I'll look into the things you suggested.
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tantek
what is homebrewbrum?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "homebrewbrum" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek
oh that's Birmingham!!!
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tantek
homebrewbrum is the Birmingham England chapter of the [[Homebrew Website Club]] and has been meeting since ~2016-09. https://homebrewbrum.co.uk/
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tantek
gRegorLove: could you grab that photo ^^^ and add it to https://indieweb.org/events/2016-11-23-homebrew-website-club ?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@homebrewbrum
#indieweb @sil: If you use Gmail you can use "takeout" to keep a copy of all your emails kept in Gmail. It's like a safety net.
(twitter.com/_/status/801536179355209728)
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aaronpk
Argh is silo.pub still down or is something wrong on my end now?
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