#indieweb 2016-12-15

2016-12-15 UTC
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GWG
I have 100lbs of salt in the garage
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gRegorLove
We got a few inches of snow in Bellingham this week, too. Pretty uncommon from what I've heard. Last winter only had a light dusting that was gone within a day.
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aaronpk
moves to #indieweather
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Zegnat
Those roads look pretty clean aaronpk, looks like basic “meh, I can still ride my bike to school”-weather to me
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aaronpk
yeah this is a pretty major street tho. all the side streets are super dangerous now
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GWG
I keep being kept from my Indiewebbing.
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GWG
I'm excited to give it some attention tonight
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Zegnat
Have fun US-HWC-goers! Europe is off for bed :D
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gRegorLove
In indieweb topics, /EXIF reminds me that I need to strip that before posting photos directly on my site.
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schmarty
oh wow that /Evernote criticism. earned me a new project for the evening of deleting my Evernote account.
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gRegorLove
Dang, Evernote.
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GWG
gRegorLove: You want in on Quiet Writing Hour?
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gRegorLove
Also, ha. "Isn’t Evernote data already in the cloud? No. We currently run and manage our own servers and infrastructure."
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gRegorLove
Like, define cloud.
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gRegorLove
(Don't, actually)
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gRegorLove
GWG: when?
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gRegorLove
If it's anytime tonight, maybe, maybe not. Packing for an early flight tomorrow AM
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gRegorLove
I do have several things I need to write about, though.
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GWG
gRegorLove: Right now?
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gRegorLove
I've started experimenting with the bullet jounal method. bulletjournal.com
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GWG
And HWC Baltimore is on the hangout presenting
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gRegorLove
Ah. Can't right now.
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chrisaldrich1
gRegorLove: If my errand was what you insinuated, I wouldn't have been back until 4:25 or 4:30. ;)
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Loqi
chrisaldrich1: tantek left you a message on 2016-10-03 at 4:50pm UTC: HWC LA this week? Venue? https://indieweb.org/events/2016-10-05-homebrew-website-club#Where
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chrisaldrich1
I've also been experimenting with a bullet journal for the past couple of months
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gRegorLove
How do you like it?
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chrisaldrich1
It's been alright, but I kind of miss the digital workflow I've been using for years.
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gRegorLove
I'm coming from Mark Forster's "FVP" method, which I've generally really liked. It's an interesting shift from one-long-list to daily logging.
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chrisaldrich1
Mostly I find it useful to have a notebook handy all the time for some of the smaller stuff that doesn't make it into my digital flow
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aaronpk
my computer can't handle video right now apparently so i am joining the hangout from my phone
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GWG
I have a separate computer sitting there doing it.
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aaronpk
sometimes i can't believe that any of this technology stuff works at all
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KevinMarks
I am at the HWC SF venue early, but I din;t thin I can use my laptop and the hangout at once as it is an ancient AIr
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miklb
so that's Baltimore in the hangout now?
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aaronpk
:( mine is an ancient air too
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KartikPrabhu
wow! people calling Macbook Airs "ancient"!
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KevinMarks
MacBook Air (11-inch, Mid 2012) 1.7Ghz i5 with 4GB
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aaronpk
ah mine is the same year but i7 and 8gb
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KevinMarks
if I want to run skype I have to quit everything else
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KartikPrabhu
try the web interface for skype on Chrome
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miklb
aaronpk I just "upgraded" from a early 2010 Air to that machine lol
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aaronpk
that's a good upgrade!
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KevinMarks
so, what should I do in the next 90 mins? Write up that weird SVG thing with the vanishing C? Work on mention-tech?
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miklb
it's been a game changer for me.
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KevinMarks
maxing out RAM is always good
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KevinMarks
I miss my 16GB Macbook
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KevinMarks
make my Hugo indieweb template into a full release?
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chrisaldrich1
KevinMarks whast that site on Hugo, or was it WordPress?
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KevinMarks
lifewithalacrity.com
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KevinMarks
that's Hugo, though I imported it from typepad
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@jgmac1106
Tonight is the night I finally get me theme to work with all the #indieweb plug ins. Have tried and failed a few times. Will reach summit
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KartikPrabhu
"Tonight's the night. It will happen again, and again... has to happen"
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KevinMarks
just made svgur.com save to internet archive.
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KartikPrabhu
couldn't help quoting Dexter, sorry
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@jgmac1106
Glad I found this old thread. Lets see what I mess up today #indieweb https://twitter.com/sdepolo/status/773936692587663360
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@hobbsy
great night at #indieweb HWC London meetup - definitely contemplating scrapping my WordPress blog & giving Jekyll another try in 2017
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GWG
Scrapping WordPress blogs...insert frowny face
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KevinMarks
depends on the WP blogs
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miklb
aaronpk are you planning to PESOS the Amazon reviews?
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aaronpk
so far I've just been manually POSSEing
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@jgmac1106
I just removed the avatar mf2 and was able to remove fatal error. Still can't get the comments to show. Will keep working #indieweb
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KevinMarks
did your virtual one finish ? we're about to start SF
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schmarty
virtual HWC just wrapped
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GWG
Best HWC Online Ever!
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @sdepolo: Let's get Homebrew Website Club SF started
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aaronpk
wow it's surprisingly tricky to make these rating stars work right
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: welcome to homebrew website club - what's new?
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@sdepolo
@jgmac1106 Oh I can't wait. We're chatting English accents. Can't imagine what can go wrong. #indieweb
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miklb
GWG high bar set
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Aaron: I want a circle that has 2π, not degrees
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @thenatealator: I just happen to have my Tau t-shirt here
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @thenatealator: That's ? which is 2π
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Aaron: my website is http://strongl.ink/aaron - it doesn't exist - I want to play with service workers and distributed hash tables
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Aaron: with a service worker I can intercept all the fetches and terminate the endpoints in the user's browser
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Aaron: sometimes you want javascript running without blocking the browser - sometimes you want it running in the background
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Aaron: a service worker is there for when you don't have an internet connection, and can find things that you saw before
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Loqi
[indienews] New post: "HWC Baltimore 12/14 Wrap-Up" https://martymcgui.re/2016/12/14/203824/
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: a great example of service workers is @adactio's https://resilientwebdesign.com that caches pages so you can read on a plane
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @sdepolo: if I'm someone who frequently travels on airplanes I can read stuff offline without paying for wifi?
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Aaron: if you're a website for an airline, and they use barcodes for boarding passes, you could cache them with a service worker
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @sdepolo: so each website owner has to set this up?
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: they have to have gone to your site before they are on the plane, but yes.
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Aaron: if you add a service worker to a CDN, that could be available offline, with intelligent management
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @sdepolo: all the networks that run ads literally run an auction on every click - that seems to be too slow
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Aaron: if they just paint into a predefined size, the ad can come in when the auction finishes
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: combining Progressive Web Apps with AMPhtml is a new direction here https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2016/12/progressive-web-amps/
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @thenatealator: we used to name all our ground stations after types of oranges, but they were near homonyms
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Aaron: the advantage of content hashes is that you can check that it is what you were expecting whoever gave it to you
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Aaron: hashing splits the source of trust from the source of content
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @sdepolo: one of the things that @snowden suggested was that twitter enabled people to edit their posts so they had deniability
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: the argument is that you should be able to do strikethrough rather than deleting or editing - showing your changes
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @sdepolo: there needs to be social consequences for things - you can say anything, but the reaction is how you learn
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: part of the problem of twitter is mobs deciding to police speech of others
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@kevinmarks
Notes from tonight's Homebrew Website Club SF http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2016-12-14.html #indieweb
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KevinMarks
godaddy default theme is https://github.com/godaddy/wp-primer-theme - can we indiewebify it?
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miklb
as in add mf2?
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aaronpk
Well that's a thought
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Zegnat
Good morning IndieWeb!
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Zegnat
What is FTP?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "FTP" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10Vd
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Zegnat
FTP stands for File Transfer Protocol, a way to move files to a different machine (like your webserver).
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Zegnat
FTP is an abbreviation for File Transfer Protocol, a way to move files to a different machine (like your webserver).
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Zegnat
I was really hoping to find some FTP client recommendations on the wiki :(
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bear
Zegnat - Transmit is my modern FTP client of choice now
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bear
for OS X
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prtksxna
Zegnat: I used to use cyberduck, but haven't used ftp in a while
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bear
cyberduck is also a great choice
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KartikPrabhu
filezilla
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KartikPrabhu
bear: I know you dislike clients asking for FTP access, you think HTTP can replace all of this backend stuff? maybe with a better UI?
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bear
sadly no
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bear
http requires a lot of holes poked into firewalls and you can't audit things properly
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KartikPrabhu
that us unfortunate as FTP adds a lot of admin overhead stuff
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bear
some of the newer web friendly tools that don't require 777 on directories and the like may cause me to move my opinion but that would only be if they are wired into oauth based auth to the system
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KartikPrabhu
yeah the server permissions thing is a complicated business. I have to look it up everytime
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bear
my core concern is that when things come in via HTTP the permissions are check against what the web server runs as, not as the user making the request
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KartikPrabhu
I don't understand what you mean
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bear
so if a nodejs or go utility would actually act as the user by dropping permissions and then make the request -- that would make me change my mind
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bear
if you visit my site and upload a file - the file is stored as nginx:nginx
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bear
not as kartik:nginx
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cweiske
($user:$group)
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bear
right - that's a better way to express it
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bear
hmm, makes me want to create a micropub flask tool to map oauth tokens to users
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KartikPrabhu
is that for a security reason though?
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bear
otherwise you are in an all-or-nothing situation
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KartikPrabhu
so it would be bad to allow such acces?
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bear
not for reading
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bear
but it is for writing
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bear
just google "php upload 777 exploit" to see why
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bear
a lot of people say to themselves - "i'll mark the upload dir as 777 what harm can it be" and then they are hacked because of a poorly patched php server installation
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bear
it's as easy as uploading a malformed jpg which is then processed by root to build thumbnails
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bear
boom - arbitrary code execution exploit in imagemagik
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KartikPrabhu
even as someone not bad at programming all of this server stuff if still scary
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cweiske
condolences to y!
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bear
security starts as soon as you say to yourself "i'll spin up a server to do ..."
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bear
yea, the yahoo news story hasn't finished yet tho - there are a lot of skeletons in that server closet
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cweiske
md5 hashes..
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cweiske
I didn't read if they were salted, thoguh
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KartikPrabhu
\me thinks these things should be more widely discussed as making your own site becomes easier
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bear
not at the level where it happened - the issue with yahoo was that one layer of tech was papered over by another 2 or 3 layers...
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bear
and they didn't realize the lowest layer was doing bad things
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bear
because older versions of the api required that code and they didn't want to migrate 100s of thousands of accounts
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bear
so they stopped adding new people to the old api but kept the code around to authenticate anyone who had that old of an account
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bear
(is probably getting some details wrong so I'll stop paraphrasing someone else's bad ops practices)
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bear
KartikPrabhu -- one of my goals is when we get to the point where we have a couple of server side implementations, to figure out a set of hardened server recommendations
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bear
because they will then all have some common items: web server, languages, user access
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bear
create one for ubuntu, redhat and maybe another
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cweiske
.. or distro packages. distros usually have good security defaults
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bear
yea, that is what the UBOS group is aiming for I think
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cweiske
oh, didn't know about that yet
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cweiske
am already there :)
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bear
oh, they've changed their message since the last time I looked - they are making a distro now
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KartikPrabhu
bear: yes a good set of server guidelines will be great
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bear
i'm having to do this as part of my job, so I may as well share it when i'm done
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Zegnat
bear, I really like the look of Transmit, and sebsel was using it too yesterday, but I don't feel I can justify its price
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bear
I think transmit has a free mode
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bear
you just have to enter stuff more often
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petermolnar
!tell sknebel I've added a few things to /image_metadata
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
petermolnar: sknebel left you a message 11 hours, 4 minutes ago: I think you talked about using EXIF data before, could you take a look at /image_metadata and add your thoughts?
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petermolnar
!tell gRegorLove interesting; I insist keeping EXIF, even for thumbnails :)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[jeremycherfas]
kevinmarks I just saw that Hugo site from your comment on @adactio’s write-up. It looks really great and also quite antique. But then, so does Tufte, often.
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j4y_funabashi
morning all
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pfefferle
good morning
miklb_, schmarty, cweiske, userXYZ, adactio, mlncn, nitot, julianf, hs0ucy, bret, sl007, loicm_, Pierre-O, tbbrown, snarfed, chrisaldrich1, thebaer, leg, rito, KevinMarks and KevinMarks_ joined the channel
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petermolnar
seems to be a little dusty but looks useful
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bear
that was one of the first webmention python toolsets IIRC - remember reading that when I was working on ronkyuu
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miklb
I'm looking but not seeing the page where tentative dates for IWC in 2017 are. Anyone know the link off top of head?
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snarfed
petermolnar: webmention-tools is ok, bridgy uses it, but it's totally unmaintained
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Loqi
snarfed: tantek left you a message 1 day, 14 hours ago: does Bridgy Publish do anything with a u-photo that is an SVG? does it try to send it to Twitter or FB or Flick to publish there? Thinking of trying one and seeing what happens
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@sdepolo
At #indieweb last night we were looking through https://gifcities.org/ for things like pbj, star wars. Try it, it's fun.
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@cswordpress
@sarahpressler @topher1kenobe Here's all the info, and yeah there's a WordPress plugin for it. https://indieweb.org/Webmention
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GWG
Afternoon
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aaronpk
I'm working on a review UI for Quill
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GWG
aaronpk, I may joke a little about it, but I'll be ready to use it possibly by 2020
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GWG
How would a Micropub client indicate to the server that it wished less granular location display for a post?
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aaronpk
it could send only the granularity requested
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GWG
aaronpk, do any clients support more than geo coordinates or venues?
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GWG
A text location, for example
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aaronpk
the event UI in Quill provides just a text field for location
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aaronpk
but mostly cause i haven't gotten around to doing anything fancier with the UI yet
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GWG
Passed as location?
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aaronpk
i believe so
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GWG
Sometimes that works
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GWG
I have been thinking about different location display options. I need to expand the wiki on that
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GWG
How do you generate a textual description of a location?
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aaronpk
the name of the venue (h-card)
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GWG
I meant from Microformat properties
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GWG
I wrote code to convert the return from reverse lookup to microformats. So the next question is displaying that
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[kevinmarks]
jeremycherfas we thought it was a good fit for Christopher's mostly long form posts
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[kevinmarks]
If he had a lot of note like ones would need more tuning
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Loqi
[indienews] New post: "Homebrew Website Club 2016-12-14" http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2016-12-14.html
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@jeffr0
Other than not using XMLRPC to send and receive them, what makes Webmentions better than Ping/Trackbacks? https://indieweb.org/Webmention
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@aaronpk
@jeffr0 Frankly not using XMLRPC is enough, but Webmention also supports updates and deletes, as well as extensions https://indieweb.org/Webmention-faq%23Why_webmention_instead_of_pingback
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@w7apk
@jeffr0 Frankly not using XMLRPC is enough, but Webmention also supports updates and deletes, as well as extensions https://indieweb.org/Webmention-faq%23Why_webmention_instead_of_pingback
(twtr.io/1LKYsGEmZPC)
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aaronpk
i didn't check that box
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aaronpk
i mean i must have... probably slipped and didnt notice
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@cswordpress
@dshanske How would an author indicate these reaction types listed at https://indieweb.org/Semantic_Linkbacks just standard markup?
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aaronpk
that sounds like a good FAQ to add to that page
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aaronpk
I think I am happy with the UI for this review interface
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aaronpk
woohoo, quill posted a review to my site!
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aaronpk
and even without my site understanding what an h-review is, it looks like an html note, which is a reasonable fallback
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aaronpk
and, all the h-review properties are tucked away in my storage file, so once I make p3k understand h-review, i won't have to re-post this :)
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tantek
aaronpk neat!
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tantek
hopefully you'll also be able to make p3k understand how to publish h-review + backcompat hReview, so that the latter is picked up by Google's Rich Snippets
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tantek
if it's not super obvious how to do that (publish h-review + backcompat hReview), definitely bug me with questions, no question too small
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tantek
(I'll use your questions to drive documentation of more details / how to / to make it more obvious)
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sknebel
miklb: you probably found it already, but: https://indieweb.org/planning ?
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Loqi
sknebel: petermolnar left you a message 11 hours, 43 minutes ago: I've added a few things to /image_metadata
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aaronpk
tantek: yep that's the idea! except i'm struggling with choosing which of the 4 options i have to make google understand the review
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aaronpk
google's documentation only mentions the schema.org vocabulary, and provides 3 different markup examples for how to use it: microdata, RDFa, and the "JSON island" of JSON-LD. however they do still consume microformats1 based on real-world evidence
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miklb
sknebel I hadn't thanks
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tantek
I should pull down SF from 2016 Planning - did not find any co-organizers so this weekend is not happening
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tantek
(not for a lack of asking)
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tantek
aaronpk, re: Google / 4 options, yeah, they've succumbed to weird politics since day 1 of when Rich Snippets shipped in 2009, and they documented *both* microformats, and a new made-up RDFa "data-vocabulary(.)org" markup that ZERO people had been using to date, because they wanted to "provide options" instead of only documenting what worked then (microformats).
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tantek
of course good luck finding any mention of data-vocabulary(.)org in their docs today
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tantek
then they rewrote their docs in everything for microdata
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tantek
they they rewrote their docs in everything for json(ld)
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aaronpk
yeah i'm conflicted on what is the best option. it seems like since google keeps changing their documented "best practice" based on the flavor of the year, using their current "best practice" (json-ld) seems like a bad idea since it's likely to change again next year
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tantek
perhaps we should document that (and the struggle you noted "which of the 4 options")
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tantek
exactly
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aaronpk
so that leads me towards using microformats1, since while it's not documented on their site, they still (have to) consume it because it's so widely deployed
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tantek
correct. and that's the bottom line. if it's widely deployed, they are compelled to support / consume it.
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tantek
you may be able to find archive.org old versions of their docs with it
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tantek
pretty sure when they first shipped, they hadn't even finished their RDFa parser yet (and didn't care because no one was publishing data-vocabulary made-up stuff yet anyway)
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aaronpk
i'm not sure what URL to look up on archive.org
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tantek
interesting
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tantek
I'm guessing we may have their old/original URLs recorded on microformats.org
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aaronpk
good thinking
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aaronpk
yeah first mention of their current doc URL is june 2016
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tantek
ah, here's 2013 archive.org page from when they had just switched to recommending microdata supposedly, but still documented microformats https://web.archive.org/web/20130717002527/https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/99170
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aaronpk
in related news, from a presentation perspective, reviews seem to share most aspects of my regular posts, so i'm not making a new top-level type for it despite it being an h-review vs h-entry
KartikPrabhu and terminalpixel joined the channel
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tantek
aaronpk fascinating
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tantek
and if we had created hAtom before hReview, it might not have happened
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tantek
hReview was something like the 3rd class based microformats (after hCard and hCalendar)
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aaronpk
interesting
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tantek
based on use-cases of course
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aaronpk
yeah i'm basically just adding a few things to h-entry like I do for likes, bookmarks, etc
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aaronpk
rather than creating a new base template
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tantek
the RSS/Atom wars were still too fresh
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tantek
so no one wanted to add fuel to that fire by doing a microformats version at the time
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tantek
until someone showed up later who was willing to do the work for hAtom and risk the fire
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aaronpk
oh funny
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tantek
reviews have more explicit "item" markup than an entry does
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tantek
and the notion of dt-reviewed, that there may be a differen time that you reviewed the the item than you published the review
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tantek
not sure that would justify a new h-* now, but it presents some case for a separate h-* object
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aaronpk
yes, but it's like adding an "item" section to my post, similar to how I add chunks to my posts for my runs/rides/etc
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tantek
and really that's a "reviewed-item"
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tantek
because a plain post with an "item" doesn't automatically me "review"
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tantek
s/me/mean
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aaronpk
yeah, if we were going to say reviews are actually h-entry, then a property called "reviewed-item" makes more sense
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tantek
ooh just saw https://github.com/godaddy/wp-primer-theme from yesterday - that's definitely a good project for the IndieWeb WordPress Outreach Team!
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aaronpk
i'm still storing and marking this up as an h-review
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tantek
also the term "hReview" got LOTS of pick-up (and still does!)
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tantek
people seemed to really like that name for some reason
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tantek
even it was the simple / obvious choice, it seems to resonate with people (even more than say hAtom or h-entry)
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tantek
somehow "hReview" became to mean "richly marked up review"
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tantek
s/became/came
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aaronpk
hm maybe because "review" is a more colloquial term than "atom" or "entry"
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tantek
ah! that's a good theory!
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aaronpk
hm dt-reviewed seems identical to dt-created
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aaronpk
i think i'm going to skip that
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tantek
aaronpk, technically dt-created would be when you start writing anything about/in the review
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tantek
which may be before or after you've actually "reviewed" the item
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tantek
e.g. you might review something realtime, like a dinner, and just take brief notes
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tantek
(thus having "reviewed it" e.g. on a particular datetime at a restaurant)
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tantek
then only later actually write-up the review
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tantek
so you would have dt-reviewed < dt-created < dt-published
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aaronpk
i guess what i mean is I haven't found a compelling use case for actually recording/publishing the created date separately from published, and dt-reviewed seems like even more granularity that has no use case yet
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tantek
(actual less-thans, not a CSS selectors ;) )
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tantek
aaronpk - yes, may be true for you for sure
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tantek
we found with real world examples that people often "reviewed" something and only later wrote it up
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tantek
for things like experiences there is of course the dt of the experience itself (i.e. when you ate dinner)
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tantek
due to fallibility of human memory, the closer the d-reviewed is to the dt of the experience, the more likely the review is accurate
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tantek
but then the actual publish date of the review doesn't matter as much to the quality of the review
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aaronpk
alright I have my review looking how I want it on my site now
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aaronpk
v1 anyway. I want to add product photos later.
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aaronpk
now to figure out how to add hReview markup
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@Pyro46
opensourceway: IndieWeb: Make your social media posts open first https://opensource.com/life/16/11/indieweb?sc_cid=701600000011jJVAAY
(twtr.io/1LKkgWXKC4G)
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tantek
seeing a weird SVG bug in my latest post - it should be auto-sized to be as wide as it can (per max-width:100%), but seems to be stuck at 200px.
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tantek
I would file a bug except FF and Saf seem to agree :/
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tantek
so now I'm just confused
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tantek
same markup/styling works fine for a JPEG. so...???
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tantek
hah! :D
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] a svg. Made it a day after Dyson Frost’s “DECEMBER 12th 2016 - THE END” from “Flash Forward” Previously: tantek.com/2011/087/t5/future-probability-tree-adjustment-forking-paths... http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/flashforward/images/a/ab/Dyson_Frost's_Wall_Diagram.svg
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
awolf and sl007 joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu
hmme xcept if I open dev tools and refresh! it goes back to SVG
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KevinMarks
I need to finish writing up the svg weirdness with the vanishing C
awolf joined the channel
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aaronpk
alright now we try this for reals
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aaronpk
oh no, the mf2 parser isn't ignoring the mf1
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aaronpk
so the python parser looks great
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aaronpk
the node one is confused too
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aaronpk
woohoo! google test tool parses my live review!
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Loqi
woot
nitot joined the channel
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aaronpk
and updated my previous text-based reviews to the new storage!
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Salt
!remind
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aaronpk
aaand now we wait for the google crawlers
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Salt
Can someone remind me to write an indieweb article in two hours?
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aaronpk
2 hours until remind Salt to write an indieweb article
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Loqi
I added a countdown scheduled for 2016-12-16 1:55am GMT+0000 (#5970)