#indieweb 2016-12-21

2016-12-21 UTC
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tantek so if you take / post photos of similar things/events (group workouts, HWC meetups, etc.) then person-tagging gets more automated with each post
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tantek thoughts?
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tantek is anyone else manually person-tagging who would find that useful?
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tantek (figuring that both 1 and 2 can be extracted / written as separable functionality)
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aaronpk that method of recommendations sounds much easier to implement than face recognition
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tantek exactly
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aaronpk actually kind of sounds like how gmail recommends additional recipients
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tantek yup!
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tantek no need for any fancy/trendy machine-learning / AI hoo-haw
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tantek 3. implement receiving "tag-of" responses and incorporate them as person-tags, using the person-tagging features of silos that I POSSE the photos to as a UI instead, and then have Bridgy backfeed those person-tagging as synthetic tag-of responses.
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snarfed mmm shades of https://snarfed.org/2015-01-22_pesos-for-bridgy-publish
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] PESOS for Bridgy Publish
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snarfed bridgy feature request is https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/488
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tantek yes that :) thanks snarfed
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tantek not going to push on that feature until I've actually implemented handling tag-of responses myself
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tantek for anyone using the Single Photo Bookmarklet to copy photo + caption from Instagram, update: https://indieweb.org/Instagram#Single_Photo_Bookmarklet
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tantek (tested it myself before updating the wiki :) )
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@acegiak @DarkestKale See this is the #indieweb rule and I need to start fucking respecting it (twitter.com/_/status/811408360624926720)
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tantek good evening #indieweb
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KartikPrabhu hi tantek
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KartikPrabhu what should a UI for generating a fragmention from selected text do if the selection is across multiple paragraphs?
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KartikPrabhu question for everyone ^
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KartikPrabhu for example: this fragmention https://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html#he%20looked.%20%22What%27s%20happened%20to%20me?%22 across the first 2 paragraphs is clearly useless as it picks the whole document
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KartikPrabhu but this fragmention https://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html#UTF%20non-breaking%20space%20in which crosses across a <strong> element is clearly useful
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tantek ooh good questions!
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tantek is there a UI brainstorming section on /fragmention?
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KartikPrabhu i don't think so
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KartikPrabhu I did put a link to my script there though
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KartikPrabhu what is fragmention?
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Loqi A fragmention is an extension to URL syntax that links and cites a phrase within a document by using a URL fragment consisting of the phrase itself, including whitespace https://indieweb.org/fragmention
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KevinMarks It is tricky because of the tension between the selected text being long and coherent versus being just enough to identify that paragraph
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KartikPrabhu but the selected text can be coherent and across mulitple elements
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KevinMarks Yes quite
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KartikPrabhu should I add to /fragmention#Challenges ?
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KartikPrabhu also the other Challenges should be updated with their now-accepted solutions
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you're talking about a challenge within the context of a specific UI
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tantek might make more sense inside a specific section for that UI inside Brainstorming
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KartikPrabhu ok does a new section called Fragmention Generating UI work? I can ass adactio's book example too
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tantek Selection UI
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tantek specific > general
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KartikPrabhu but that does not specify fragmention then ;)
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tantek !tell aaronpk do you have a venue confirmed for next week's HWC PDX? https://indieweb.org/events/2016-12-28-homebrew-website-club#Where
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell ChrisAldrich do you have a venue confirmed for next week's HWC LA? https://indieweb.org/events/2016-12-28-homebrew-website-club#Where
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu how does one document broken links?
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KartikPrabhu the Instapaper support link here https://indieweb.org/fragmention#Silo_Examples is 404 now
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you can either <nowiki> it and document when it was noticed that the link died, or (more work) dig up an archive.org link to the last functional version
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KartikPrabhu yeah doing the archive.org thing
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KevinMarks Github pages for notes no longer ideal - 10 posts an hour limit
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/msb5014/status/811252318377230336
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@msb5014 Party's over... github pages has bandwidth and request limits now https://help.github.com/articles/what-is-github-pages/ https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0IlqxQXcAE9WW5.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/811252318377230336)
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KartikPrabhu well it is a sort of silo so
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KartikPrabhu silos gonna silo
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tantek whoa
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tantek this is a good intro / summary article, written from a good Gen 2/3 perspective: http://www.webdistortion.com/2015/05/11/living-the-indie-web/
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sknebel good morning Indieweb!
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KartikPrabhu hello
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@kevinmarks Today I learned about the lobotomized owl selector https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2016/11/css-inheritance-cascade-global-scope-new-old-worst-best-friends/ #Indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/811467860237111298)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Today I learned about the lobotomized owl selector https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2016/11/css-inheritance-cascade-global-scope-new-old-worst-best-friends/ #Indieweb" by Kevin Marks on 2016-12-21 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/today-i-learned-about-the-lobotomized-owl-selector-201611css-inheritance-cascade-global-scope-new-old-worst-best-friends-indieweb
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Zegnat good morning IndieWeb, sknebel, KartikPrabhu!
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: sknebel: looking for feedback on http://indieweb.org/fragmention#Generating_fragmention_from_a_selection_across_multiple_elements from everyone
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tantek good evening sknebel :)
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Zegnat I am just reading up on the discussion, KartikPrabhu.
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: great! any feedback is appreciated
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Zegnat Almost caught up on logs. I need a daily-digest-chat-log, I feel ;)
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Zegnat KartikPrabhu: do you still need confirmation of the select bug on different OS?
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KartikPrabhu I think I have FF and Safari on OS from KevinMarks_
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KartikPrabhu IE/Edge or Opera would be good to know
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KartikPrabhu or any windows build of browsers
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Zegnat I am currently at work, so I can test any W10 browsers. Would it be worth it to add a table to your test page with test results?
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Zegnat Should be able to test both IE and Edge
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KartikPrabhu I was planning to do that. No need to be exhaustive though
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KartikPrabhu that would be great!
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KartikPrabhu tries to remember HTML markup for a table
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KartikPrabhu wow the table markup is messed up and complicated!
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Zegnat Lovely, Edge does not let you copy the contents of alert()
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KevinMarks_ Table markup isn't too bad
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Zegnat Neither does Chrome. What's with all this blocking of alert box copying?!
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Zegnat IE 11 had no issue with it
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Zegnat Strike that. Chrome did seem to work. Maybe just Edge then
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: you can tell me 1. or 2. from here https://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/selection-encodeURI.html
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: could I have version numbers for your test too?
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Zegnat IE follows Firefox. Results: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/Zegnat/15505211d721413e962e08a2e6af0e2c/raw/2e547bec1f95cb4fac179369d21c45c469852797/test.txt
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Zegnat I didn't bring my MacBook, so I can't verify those results at the moment
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: these are all on windows?
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Zegnat Yes
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Zegnat Sorry
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KartikPrabhu awesome thanks much
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Zegnat Windows 10 Pro
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Zegnat In case that matters for Edge
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Zegnat Updated the gist with a link to your page and noting that its W10
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KartikPrabhu updated here: https://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/selection-encodeURI.html
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KartikPrabhu the spec doesnot say what the actual result is supposed to be so who knows which browsers are at fault here
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KartikPrabhu so much failing with tables.
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KartikPrabhu is glad to have never used them for layout
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Zegnat Feels like an omission in the spec, if they don't specify that the full UT8 should be returned
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Zegnat Going to lose this nickname in a few seconds.... ugh
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: the getSelection().toString() is under-speced for sure
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Zegnat Loqi, +v please
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Zegnat KartikPrabhu, so should a spec bug be filed before browser bugs? Or browser bugs before spec bug?
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KartikPrabhu don't ask me! I just filed my first bug report today!
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KartikPrabhu these are times I get reminded that I'm not a "proper dev"
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Zegnat KartikPrabhu: not a proper dev? Anyone who detects browser implementation differences and then writes succinct tests for them is a proper dev IMHO
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KartikPrabhu I guess, that does count for something! :)
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sknebel Regarding the fragmention examples, just for my understanding: the entire document is selected in the first example because it highlights the element that contains the entire selected text?
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sknebel and the document is the parent of the two <p>?
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KartikPrabhu sknebel: yes
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KartikPrabhu the fragmention.js script picks the nearest ancestor with the whole selection
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cweiske marinintim, are you http://marinin.xyz/?
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Loqi Tim Marinin
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cweiske if yes: the font size is pretty large on your blog
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cweiske e.g. http://marinin.xyz/thoughts/capslock/
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: but it does scale with browser zoom so...
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sknebel KartikPrabhu: sounds like for that case you'd want to highlight all the children of that nearest ancestor that contain parts of the selection instead?
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Zegnat It's not really aboout highlighting though, more about where to put .focus()
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Zegnat And that's limited to a single element, by definition
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KartikPrabhu sknebel: that is a valid expectation, please add to wiki
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cweiske KartikPrabhu, http://fotos.cweiske.de/screenshots/2016-12-21%20but%20it%20does%20scale.png
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cweiske that's 100% browser scale
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: I don't think the fragmention.js script switches focus at the moment; but that also is a valid expectation, please document it on /fragmention
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: what I meant was you could always change the scaling in your own browser
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KartikPrabhu there is no real metric for how big a font size should be
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cweiske oh. my browser lets me specify the default font size
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Zegnat Wait, it does not put .focus()? I thought that was what it was for :o
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cweiske I expect that web sites respect this
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Zegnat This shows how little I even use it
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cweiske but they seldom do, and most people don't know about that setting
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: fragmention.js does detect the element and put a special attribute "fragmention" on it, I suppose putting focus would be a good enhancement
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: if CSS is used it should be respected by the brwoser settings no?
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Zegnat Is there a reference fragmention implementation? E.g. a repository for fragmention.js?
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions
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cweiske "font-size: 100%" is the size that's set in the browser settings
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cweiske if you use px or pt, then you're not respecting the browser setting
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: that page you linked does use rem for font size so...
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KartikPrabhu that is here http://marinin.xyz/thoughts/capslock/ the font size is set as 2rem
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cweiske question is now: why?
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KartikPrabhu or why not? what is incorrect about rem for font-size?
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Zegnat KartikPrabhu, thanks. So it does element.scrollIntoView(), but as soon as I were to start TABing around I go to the top of the page again because focus was not set to the element
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sknebel Zegnat: can you even set focus on e.g. a <p>?
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: I think yes. so you can test it on https://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html#the%20contract
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KartikPrabhu would really like feedback on this since I am trying to improve the UX of fragmentions in general
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Zegnat sknebel, in some browsers I believe you can. Or you can make it focusable. I am looking to see if I have the code left. Pretty certain I wrote something for it
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: would be awesome if you documented the issue/finding on /fragmention or on https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions
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sknebel Zegnat: apparently you can set tabindex to something != -1 and it makes things focusable. TIL
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Zegnat https://gist.github.com/Zegnat/1900563#file-skiplinks-js
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Zegnat There it is, sknebel
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Zegnat There might be better solutions now
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Zegnat I last worked on it February 2012
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Zegnat KartikPrabhu: can't currently update the wiki or post to GitHub. Don't have my password vault on my work PC
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: anytime you are free would work. I think fragmentions is a great idea and so would like to see it tested and improved up on
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Zegnat I also wonder where screenreaders would expect to be dropped into the document. Probably on the nearest ancestor P. That's also something to think about, if you always grab just the nearest ancestor you might end up on a STRONG in the middle of a sentence. While I would expect to be put on the P, i.e. at the start of the sentence the selection fall
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Zegnat s in.
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Zegnat So, yeah, focus, and location screen readers expect to end up at. Those are the first two things that come to mind right now.
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KartikPrabhu ooh good point! I have been thinking about a11y more these days but not in the context of fragmentions
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Zegnat Will update wiki at some point this week. Probably tomorrow. I am starting my trip home to Sweden this afternoon.
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Zegnat Or, if anyone else is working on it, just link to this conversation and copy what I wrote ;)
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: that works for documenting it on http://indieweb.org/fragmention#Challenges
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KartikPrabhu once it is documented on the wiki we can try to get the developer's eyes on it
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Zegnat So if the nearest parent is of the category phrasing content (https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/dom.html#phrasing-content-2) go up the tree to find the next parent. That would get you to LIs / Ps / etc. There are probably problems with that. (E.g. SPAN childs of BODY will focus BODY. So this only works if you use proper semantic sectioning ele
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Zegnat ments etc.)
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KartikPrabhu oh boy! this is a minefield
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: glad you know more about these "semantics" that I do
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Zegnat KartikPrabhu, I sometimes get a bit obsessive over specs. I don't often see people refer to element categories, which is too bad, because they can be very helpful in conversations like this one
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Zegnat Hey, Loqi woke up!
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: yes someone has to do it, and I am horrible are reading these specs. DO any browsers actullay implement these spec categories?
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KartikPrabhu this might be moved to #indieweb-dev
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Sebsel Good morning indieweb :)
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Sebsel aaronpk I'll try to find out why XRay 500s on seblog.nl
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petermolnar morning sebsel
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Zegnat sebsel are you going to document your read posts on http://indieweb.org/read ? :)
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Sebsel oh, I will.
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Sebsel But they are not finished, I just post plaintext now, so I have the data
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Sebsel Have to think of UI / microformats / posting-interface etc
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@jkphl Today is 2017's last Homebrew Website Club Nuremberg. Drop by if you fancy some #Glühwein! ;) ❄️ https://indieweb.org/events/2016-12-21-homebrew-website-club #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/811521645286490112)
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Zegnat Just plain text documentation is Fine. That's what tantek has.
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Sebsel But tantek at least has a standardised format!
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@IndieWebCampDE Heute findet der letzte Homebrew Website Club Nürnberg in 2017 statt. Wer Lust auf'n Glühwein hat ... ;) https://indieweb.org/events/2016-12-21-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/811522087567425536)
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Sebsel But I have plans for it, and I will document once I made some steps toward it :)
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Sebsel I can also blog about the plans, I guess, but then I need to have my lang="*" fields ready as discussed in #indieweb-dev
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@IndieWebCampDE Heute findet der letzte Homebrew Website Club Nürnberg in 2016 statt. Wer Lust auf'n Glühwein hat ... ;) https://indieweb.org/events/2016-12-21-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/811522639676186625)
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Sebsel Having your own website is hard if you want to do all the things 'right' and by yourself
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petermolnar nah, there's got to be a WordPress plugin for that /s
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Zegnat That's probably why people see a barrier to entry here. The real thing to understand is that there is no "right". Publishing HTML is all you need to do to do it right.
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petermolnar that soon results in too many choices, too many technologies, what is trendy, what is lame, and some will just walk away instead
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat sebsel it helps to have an itch list as https://kartikprabhu.com/itch and (out of date) http://indieweb.org/User:kartikprabhu.com#Itching
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Sebsel yeah, I keep reminding myself of what aaronpk said too: https://chat.indieweb.org/2016-12-13/1481660554042000
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Loqi [aaronpk] well you don't need microformats if you just want to publish something! you need microformats once you want someone/something else to consume it!...
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Sebsel cweiske++ for the search :)
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Loqi cweiske has 66 karma in this channel (74 overall)
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Sebsel KartikPrabhu sounds like a good thing yeah!
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j4y_funabashi hello
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aaronpk good morning
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 37 minutes ago: do you have a venue confirmed for next week's HWC PDX? https://indieweb.org/events/2016-12-28-homebrew-website-club#Where
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aaronpk petermolnar: sebsel: I'd say just start simple. it's been surprisingly fun to build my new website by just writing plain HTML files, then slowly adding php includes, so that I focus on actually writing things instead of worrying about the tools https://w7apk.com
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sknebel morning aaronpk!
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petermolnar is this new? https://help.github.com/articles/what-is-github-pages/#usage-limits
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cweiske Last-Modified:Wed, 21 Dec 2016 05:11:19 GMT
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cweiske https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20161114170930/https://help.github.com/articles/what-is-github-pages/ already has it
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sknebel earlier ones as well
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sknebel from comment on HN it seems like they introduced this sometime earlier this year
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sknebel and are probably not strictly enforcing it, since a popular project page with docs or demos should easily exceed 100k requests
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sknebel s/comment/comments
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sknebel and comment by someone from github saying as much: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13229461
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sknebel (yes, I was reading that discussion just now ;))
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sknebel different topic: can anyone recommend a good cheap DNS hoster? (really just DNS, domain should be kept with the current registrar)
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cweiske does DNS himself
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aaronpk sknebel: i'm in the process of setting up Hurricane Electric as a fallback DNS provider for some domains https://dns.he.net/
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aaronpk actually it's already set up for indieweb.org
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aaronpk my main DNS is provided by Linode. I used to run my own DNS server but finally shut it donw.
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sknebel thx, good pointers
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petermolnar sknebel digitalocean
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petermolnar they offer free dns services
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cweiske i'm able to run my own dyndns because I self-host it
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Zegnat sknebel, I am on namecheap's free dns
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sknebel thanks everybody, lots of options to look through it seems ;)
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aaronpk omg i love that quill shows a preview of the thing i'm replying to now
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martymcguire[m] aaronpk++ i really love that feature, too!
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Loqi aaronpk has 444 karma in this channel (1158 overall)
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Sebsel I'm trying to think of something to review just to test https://quill.p3k.io/review :)
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aaronpk hehe
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@JustOpenSourced marinintim just open sourced a repository: https://github.com/marinintim/indieweb-slides #HTML (twitter.com/_/status/811611087191867392)
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aaronpk the last place you ate?
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aaronpk the last thing you bought?
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Sebsel I have something!
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aaronpk I do need to update the docs for quill
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Sebsel my endpoint rejected the request :(
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aaronpk aw
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Sebsel what does it send? a nestled h-item? it should be prepared for that.
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aaronpk yeah this is why i need docs :)
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Sebsel uhu
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aaronpk the top-level object is an h-review, and there's a nested h-product in a property called "item"
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Sebsel Ah and I reject everything that's not a h-entry.
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Sebsel is it okay to have h-reviews in a h-feed? because that will end up happening if I whitelist h-review in my code.
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aaronpk i don't see why not
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aaronpk h-review is one of those funny ones where it actually shares most of the same properties as h-entry so maybe shouldn't have been its own top-level item, but came from a long history of microformats1 where it was a top-level item so here we are
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aaronpk it does have a little more semantic difference between h-entry compared to something like an h-entry with a photo, plus the name is catchy (as demonstrated by the surprising number of tweets about it still), so it's not too bad that it's a new object type
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Loqi [indieweb] "Currently debating between #100DaysOfMusic or #100DaysOfIndieWeb for my #100Days project. #100DaysOfMusic - The goal..." on 2016-12-21
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aaronpk oh hey superfeedr is picking up my notes now
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aaronpk not sure why the permalink is missing
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cweiske aaronpk, quill reply post preview does not look nice when replying to larger blog posts, e.g. https://quill.p3k.io/?me=https://commentpara.de/&dontask=1&reply=http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/phinde.htm
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aaronpk ooh good thinking
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aaronpk yeah that's a bit much :)
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cweiske maybe set max-height on the preview with overflow:scroll-y
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aaronpk i'll do that, plus also check for a "name" property and just use that instead
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cweiske and please auto-focus on the comment field
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aaronpk the content field?
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cweiske yes
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aaronpk ?
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cweiske with the autologin options I can finally add "add a comment" button to my blog posts
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cweiske but then I'd need to display them, too :/
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cweiske hm. phinde has been featured on https://www.sitepoint.com/sourcehunt-xmas-2016-give-the-gift-of-open-source-prestige/ as "deserving stars"
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aaronpk nice
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tantek phinde++
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Loqi phinde has 1 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme lol, i never looked at the comments on this http://www.commitstrip.com/en/2015/07/15/a-brief-history-of-flash/
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ben_thatmustbeme its pretty hillarious to me
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@codebear @mikeal there are already IndieWebCamps almost monthly in many cities where decentralized topics are often discussed #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/811648818584424448)
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bear responding to him ^^ in that way so others may see his original request
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@mikeal @codebear I don't have enough characters to talk about why I'm not investing in the IndieWeb stuff :/ (twitter.com/_/status/811650073121521664)
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aaronpk #irony
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aaronpk bear++ for https://twitter.com/codebear/status/811650666997436416
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Loqi bear has 129 karma in this channel (170 overall)
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@codebear @mikeal that's a shame because i've been with it for quite a while and so far it's the *only* decentralized conversation that has lasted (twitter.com/_/status/811650666997436416)
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bear https://medium.com/offline-camp <-- i'm trying hard to not respond with tons of snark
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bear oh - this is about making sure that PWA's are "offline first" ... wow, so not interested in that
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bear http://offlinefirst.org/
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sknebel also (ideally) completely orthogonal to the goals here
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bear yea, I was drawn in to his talk of a decentralized web event
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snarfed are you kidding? you don't want a posting UI that works offline or in spotty connectivity? save drafts, sync posts and edit offline, etc?!
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snarfed i do
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/posting-to-the-indieweb-from-your-phone
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Posting to the indieweb from your phone
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bear I have never posted anything from my phone and likely never will
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snarfed or a reader!
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aaronpk offline first is a great goal. it just seems tangential to decentralized web
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snarfed bear: ok. lots of people do though. and probably even more at least want to read on their phones
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snarfed ah. vs decentralized web, maybe
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bear yea, I need to stop posting - later I'll explain why hearing anything from some folks in the nodejs community sends me straight to rant/rage
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petermolnar offline first: I'm with bear on this. offline web apps is a waste in it's current state. ( os layer, gui layer, browser layer, web layer, and I'm wondering why my CPU is baking plastic. )
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petermolnar there are these things, like Thunderbird, text editors and stuff, out of the browser, which are, be definition, offline
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petermolnar just add an api to those, to connect to remote stuff
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petermolnar you don't need the whole js sandwich for this
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petermolnar just api endpoints
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petermolnar for example, photoshop can upload to many offline services just fine
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petermolnar online
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petermolnar ok, again: PS has modules to upload to services
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: offline first also applies to websites and not just apps
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petermolnar yeah... caching had been around for a while.
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petermolnar and FF mobile has been doing it, so it reloads the cached when it loses connection
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KartikPrabhu right, but with things like service workers you can even read a web book offline
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KartikPrabhu see example: with or without an internet connection
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KartikPrabhu eh sorry https://resilientwebdesign.com/#with%20or%20without%20an%20internet%20connection
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petermolnar or offer an epub version?
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petermolnar adactio's book is nice and it's a good read
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petermolnar but having a html and pdf only is not the one I agree with
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petermolnar epub is a perfect format for this
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: why make an epub when you have HTML already
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petermolnar for ebook readers?
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KartikPrabhu epub is s imply a subset of HTML with other tack ons
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petermolnar my old kindle 4 does not have the computing power to handle books like that
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KartikPrabhu but I don't have a ebook reader. but I can still read adactio's book offline on my phone
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petermolnar but it's perfectly fine with epubs
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KartikPrabhu it isn't ebook or offline-HTML
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KartikPrabhu if adactio wnats he can make an epub too
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Guest90645 epubs are zip archives, so they do have a storage advantage over plain html. Only real advantage I see.
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@indiescripter IndieWeb people - added sknebel http://indiescripter.com/articles/indieweb-people.html via @indiescripter (twitter.com/_/status/811684654080106496)
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bear my take on the type of offline reading your describing above is that it's a solution that is required only because phones don't have a well defined api to store content
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KartikPrabhu service worker is such an api no?
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bear so a browser based app cannot behave the same way as a desktop based app and that wrankles the nerves of browser app folk
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KartikPrabhu why does this api have to be only for phones
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bear that is a great question - my answer is tied up in my bias against browser "apps" I guess
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bear I should probably just go sit in the luddit corner
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KartikPrabhu bear: I am not concerned about "apps" anyway. Adactio's book is a good couter example
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Loqi it is probable
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bear really i'm not either
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bear my gripe is this in a nutshell - why can I not view a web page, have the browser store the html, css and even some js
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bear and make it so if I visit that web page when offline I just get a small icon that says i'm viewing an offline page
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bear instead most sites won't even have visible text
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bear and yes, service workers "solve" this - but really i'm asking why doesn't this already exist as a solved item in browsers
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bear that's why i'm such a huge fan of static with a bit of js added for +1 features, but always have the core fallback of static
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KartikPrabhu of course the browsers could do this by default, but service worker type things are a good start
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bear I view service workers as another layer in the progressive stack really
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bear static html - css - js for events - service layer to cache forms and the like - fully online
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petermolnar "> always have the core fallback of static" we're relics from ~2006 when progressive enhancement meant static html first, then styling and just after that JS
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KartikPrabhu bear: yes! they are another layer in the progressive enhancement stack
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: that is what progressive enhancement means today too
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petermolnar not from what I see
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bear but it doesn't in practical reality
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petermolnar it means ways to make react work semi-offline
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petermolnar these days
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KartikPrabhu well maybe I am conditioned by adactio's viewpoint on this :)
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bear you can't do anything with a site unless you have 3 layers of js - heck, most of the service worker stack is js implemented
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bear I should be able to click on a form button and have the browser say "hey, i'm going to cache this for you until you are online"
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bear but now a days you don't even have forms
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bear it's all dynamic html stuff that *requires* some javascript dom manipulation that is then sent to a backend using something other than a POST
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petermolnar that bothers me as well, when I see a button but it's not a clickable action handler
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bear heck, I would even remove that complaint if the data to submit was at least doable over a REST api
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petermolnar because the js is a third party pull which I block
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KartikPrabhu i agree that most of this JS stuff has been over-used but that doesnot mean that the JS tech is bad
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bear and i'm not ranting against that because I'm stuck in 2006 either - entire swathes of internet communities cannot access those items because they use assisted devices to view pages
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petermolnar no tech is bad on it's own, I don't blame hammers either
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bear KartikPrabhu - completely agree, most of my ranting is targeted to the echo chamber that is "modern" web devs
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bear who build things because they can and then toss them onto the internet and then yell back at you when you ask for it to be accessible
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bear wow - I'm really in a grumpy mood today - I think i'm on my 10th rant
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KartikPrabhu haha go build something on your own site to cool off
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Loqi rofl
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bear :)
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bear yea, I did that yesterday to cool off
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bear added the beginnings of websub hub code
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bear and added to my event thingy pushing of publication items to subscribers
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bear so i'm now kinda waiting for aaronpk to get more websub.rocks items in place so I can continue my coding :)
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cweiske bear, I totally follow you in respect to modern js-driven "development"
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pfefferle !tell barnabywalters can you please add me to the indieweb namespace on packagist.org?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@indiescripter Making some progress towards geting started with #indieweb http://indiescripter.com (twitter.com/_/status/811708775065206784)
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