#indieweb 2016-12-28

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Loqi
[indieweb] "ix mag etwas auf aaronparecki.com" by ix@wirres.net (felix schwenzel) on 2016-12-28 http://wirres.net/article/articleview/10455/1/0/
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Zegnat
GWG, re: classic content, there are some great Facebook examples of this. TheBritishMonarchy on Facebook goes back to at least The Queen's Coronation in 1953, with pictures and everything.
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indiescripter
Good evening (9.30pm here in Adelaide South Australia)
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indiescripter
Guess my timezone too skewed to find anyone around
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@indiescripter
@indiewebcamp Starting to feel as an indieweb newbie that I don't get it. Still seems all silo-centric. Also my AU timezone no good with IRC
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@indiescripter
@indiewebcamp Seems so lonely to be an indiewebber from DownUnder
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aaronpk
woohoo! just launched pinned posts!
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GWG
Yay!
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dansup
nice :)
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@ChrisAldrich
@indiescripter Many of us read the chat logs every day even when we're not active https://chat.indieweb.org/2016-12-27
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snarfed
happy birthday aaronpk! (and congrats!)
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aaronpk
thanks!
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PFMurph
happy birthday man!
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aaronpk
omg twitter
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[mobitar]
I don’t know you yet, but happy birthday :slightly_smiling_face:
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aaronpk
:) thanks
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GWG
On the 8th day of Indieweb aaronpk gave to us....
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KevinMarks
An indieweb birthday balloons feature?
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Zegnat
That would be a pretty fun browser extension. Parse h-card for bday, if the bday is today show balloons!
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Loqi
[Ryan Barrett] Let’s Talk userscript
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aaronpk
stretch goal! now my home page has balloons
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@aaronpk
@indiescripter @indiewebcamp hm, what do you mean "silo-centric"? We often replicate silo UX on our own sites, and… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/814165881890734081
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aaronpk
well that was fun
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aaronpk
i used data URIs to embed the gifs in the JS
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@artlung
Continued death of #indieweb - all @LiveJournal feeds I subscribe to via RSS (/data/atom/) throwing 503 errors for… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/814172065242587136
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aaronpk
wait what, why is that "death of #indieweb"
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sebsel
aaronpk lol for the balloons and happy birthday to you! :D
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StatelessCat
help
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@kevinmarks
@arthur_affect a silo like @LiveJournal getting sloppy with sidefiles isn't an #indieweb problem
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@davidmead
@artlung @LiveJournal Not sure that counts as part of the #IndieWeb, let alone it’s death @artlung 😉 in reply to:… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/814178661763051520
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@artlung
@davidmead Do we not count being able to remix Atom feeds from external services as #indieweb? Sorry for the definitional error if so.
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@artlung
@davidmead well clearly neither of us are pure #indieweb since we're on the RSS-killing and closed @twitter as our conversation hub. :-)
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@artlung
@davidmead But purity never interested me anyway - I value user empowerment and mobility to publish - as much as is practical. #indieweb
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@kevinmarks
@artlung Indieweb isn't about purity, it is about user experience and control. See https://indieweb.org/POSSE
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Indieweb isn't about purity, it is about user experience and control. See https://indieweb.org/POSSE" by Kevin Marks on 2016-12-28 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/indieweb-isnt-about-purity-it-is-about-user-experience-and
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tantek
that's a good summary KevinMarks
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tantek
also, how come no-one pointed out that *.livejournal.com are silo accounts as well? because you don't own your domain
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tantek
what is livejournal
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Loqi
LiveJournal is a declining blogging silo https://indieweb.org/LiveJournal
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KevinMarks
I said silo in my first response
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tantek
kevinmarks, in what thread? I don't see any response from you that mentions silo in any replies from the top: https://twitter.com/artlung/status/814172065242587136
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@artlung
Continued death of #indieweb - all @LiveJournal feeds I subscribe to via RSS (/data/atom/) throwing 503 errors for… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/814172065242587136
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davidmead
I think kevinmarks replied to the wrong person
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tantek
davidmead, well done with pointing out your reply came from your own site
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tantek
with permashortlink
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davidmead
oooh yeah tantek ;-)
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tantek
kevinmarks, it would strengthen your replies about POSSE were themselves clearly POSSEd
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tantek
were *they themselves
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tantek
this is why permashortlinks matter - to make POSSEing *obvious* to the casual observer of a thread, even if it takes a nudge to point out the permashortlink as evidence
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tantek
davidmead++ for doing what he is saying
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Loqi
davidmead has 3 karma
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KevinMarks
Lol. You know why? I replied in twitter and autocorrect changed his handle
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tantek
KevinMarks: sounds like a problem with the UI you used that was not the UI of your own site
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tantek
seems fitting punishment ;)
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davidmead
lol. gotta love that helper tech kevinmarks
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tantek
davidmead, as you're diligently owning your notes and replies, consider adding yourself to https://indieweb.org/ownyourdata#IndieWeb_Examples (note the "high bar" conditions therein, I think it looks like you're there or almost there)
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davidmead
that’s a pretty high bar tantek
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@kevinmarks
@artlung a silo like @LiveJournal getting sloppy with sidefiles isn't an #indieweb problem
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Loqi
[indieweb] "a silo like @LiveJournal getting sloppy with sidefiles isn't an #indieweb problem" by Kevin Marks on 2016-12-28 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/a-silo-like-livejournal-getting-sloppy-with-sidefiles-isnt-an
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tantek
davidmead, you can do it, you're almost there
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tantek
lol at "sloppy with sidefiles"
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tantek
tries web searches
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tantek
hmm no indieweb results in first 3 google search pages
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KevinMarks
What is a sidefile?
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Loqi
The sidefile-antipattern is a violation of the DRY principle by the use of secondary files (typically in some one-off XML format) to provide information that is a duplicate of information available in primary files on a website (in HTML), and is an antipattern due to typical DRY violation problems such as out-of-date, missing, corrupted, or outright false data https://indieweb.org/sidefile
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tantek
however, searching for sidefile (singular) brings up the third result https://indieweb.org/sidefile-antipattern
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@artlung
@kevinmarks Indeed. The decay of silos highlights the raison d'être of #indieweb; silos are poor purveyors of publishing openness.
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tantek
google trying to be overclever about singular vs plural results
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KevinMarks
Is schemas json ld an inline sidefile?
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tantek
that sounds like an oxymoron
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tantek
no such thing as "inline side-*"
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KevinMarks
sidefile << webfinger
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Loqi
ok, I added "webfinger" to the "See Also" section of /sidefile
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tantek
schema's JSONLD is an in-document DRY violation
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tantek
sidefiles is just one form of DRY violation
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KevinMarks
Oops, missed the /
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tantek
wouldn't have helped, the See Also shortcut doesn't parse wiki-relative refs like that
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tantek
you have to use [[webfinger]]
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tantek
davidmead, in https://indieweb.org/2017-01-01-commitments#David_Mead you mention plugins, which is a great self-reliance / invisible reliability/longevity goal. However, consider making an /ownyourdata goal for yourself too, since you're *so close* to doing it.
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davidmead
I think its finding a good system to work on mobile that I need sort out tantek. that’ll make the /ownyourdata goal achievable for me.
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sl007
aaronpk - FYI https://spresso.me - was just presented in the talk "On the Security and Privacy of Modern Single Sign-On in the Web" at #33c3 - video should be avail. soon
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GWG
davidmead, good luck
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tantek
davidmead, I have not found a good system to work on mobile. I have instead sacrificed posting from mobile. for nearly 7 years now.
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KevinMarks
I think that is it, though given that twitter's Android app has been losing replies recently, my Silona sent could go down
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tantek
I realize that's not reasonable to expect that of everyone, but it has made me more thoughtful and deliberate about each and every post.
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KevinMarks
Also my autocorrect needs slapping
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tantek
lololol
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KevinMarks
s/Silona sent/silo use/
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davidmead
not the encouragment i need to hear tantek ;-)
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tantek
davidmead, just being up front about what's taken to do so since 2010-01-01
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tantek
it was an unintentional stumbling (back) into "slow blogging" as it were, from the rapid pace mobile-based back/forth
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tantek
(not my term, I think I heard that somewhere else previously)
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GWG
davidmead, ben_thatmustbeme's Micropub client is promising
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davidmead
oh yeah GWG? i’ll take a look
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ben_thatmustbeme
what is inkstone?
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Loqi
InkStone (formerly MobilePub) is a web app for posting various items to your website using micropub https://indieweb.org/inkstone
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davidmead
been thinking of adding hashtags to the start of posts. that way they get included in tweets instead of being cut off from longer ones with the permashort link. opinions?
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tantek
davidmead, excellent thinking and general area of challenge. there has been some previous thinking / experimenting on this.
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aaronpk
my previous posting interface would trim my tweet text to fit the hashtags at the end. trying to find a screenshot
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tantek
as you imply, specifically in how it impacts truncation of posts for POSSEing
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tantek
aaronpk: wait, p3k no longer does that?
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tantek
I sorta thought that was a separable function / library
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aaronpk
well it was part of the inline p3k posting interface, which I dropped in the 2016 rebuild
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tantek
looks for a write-up
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aaronpk
now I only post from quill
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Demo post (for @indiewebcampUK) -- demonstrating my posting UI. After the text gets too long it truncates automatically and adds a citation link. Hashtags are preserved. #indieweb... https://aaronparecki.com/2012/09/09/6/indieweb-posting-ui.png
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davidmead
I think i had something similar set up when I was using Known aaronpk, but WP doesn’t do that
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tantek
"3. include hashtags as part of that abbreviated content (even if they're beyond the ellipsis horizon) to increase syndication based discovery/searchability of your content "
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tantek
hmm, I have a PESETAS question. how easy is it to setup a twitter account that all it does is auto-post from a public IG?
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tantek
I feel like there should be enough indieweb building blocks to make that happen
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tantek
ownyourgram + silo.pub?
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aaronpk
i think so!
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aaronpk
hm, i built it to work with your own micropub endpoint in the middle, but it might just work signing in to ownyourgram as a silo.pub user
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tantek
Why does it seem like nearly every post I have to figure out some new(ish) indieweb(like) problem first before I post
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tantek
I don't really think I'm overthinking things but maybe I am?
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tantek
(notwithstanding asking that question itself)
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tantek
also I'm figuring ownyourgram+silopub is better than IFTTT
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tantek
but maybe I'll try both and find out?
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tantek
I'm now treating creating new twitter accounts as cheap name registration, like DNS but on a silo, just to be able to @-name reference something instead of eating 23 chars with a domain name
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davidmead
I create an twitter photo entry using IFTTT everytime I post on Instagram tantek. Downside is I have to add the syndicate link for it back on my blog manually
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tantek
davidmead interesting!
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tantek
did you IFTTT need access to your instagram? or was it able to just do it automatically from your public posts?
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davidmead
let me check tantek. here’s one that just posted https://twitter.com/davidmead/status/814196516483112964
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@adactio
@jmmcduffie Great question! Step one is having your own domain. From there: http://indieweb.org/Getting_Started Ask for help: https://indieweb.org/irc
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davidmead
you use your instagram account
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tantek
so you still have to auth-in with your IG account?
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tantek
seems like that would/should be unnecessary if it's a public IG
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tantek
though perhaps that's deliberate design to avoid content "re-appropriation" ?
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tantek
or perhaps by authing in you can do it more real-time like? or the API requires it?
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davidmead
possibly
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davidmead
it’s almost instantaneous
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davidmead
in fact, sometimes, that works and ownyourgram doesn't
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aaronpk
oh davidmead did you see i added an interface in ownyourgram to post individual photos if it misses one for some rason?
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davidmead
i didn’t aaronpk, but i know we talked about it. i’ll go check it out now
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tantek
whoa the logged out home page of Twitter looks like a 1990s era web portal!
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tantek
when did that happen?!?
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tantek
except when you start to scroll it morphs in a pinterest like layout
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tantek
of popular tweets with photos and link-previews and such
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tantek
so weird
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davidmead
aaronpk - logged in and instantly saw the ‘post’ and ‘post again’ buttons. that’s great! worked a treat. thx
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aaronpk
awesome!
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aaronpk
very strange that it skipped some for you though. did you happen to have posted a whole bunch of photos in a row or something? I think it only sees the last 20
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davidmead
and i’ve broken it
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aaronpk
oh dear
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@davidmead
#indieweb Trying out @textexpander (thx @hotdogsladies) for quickly adding ‘u-in-reply-to’ to blog posts. Works... http://djm.click/blog/b/2wS
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tantek
weird that twitter suggests number suffixed account names when a number suffix is unnecessary
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davidmead
you can tell i have the week off work can’t you :-)
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tantek
I feel like I could do 100 days of silos gonna silo just blogging about dumb things silos do
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tantek
WTF - I did *nothing* and Twitter locked the new account
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tantek
amazing
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tantek
so stupid of them
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aaronpk
part of their new anti-troll prevention
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tantek
literally just walked away to take care of something in the other room for a minute, came back, and the "Your account has been locked." screen was showing
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davidmead
question ben_thatmustbeme - if i were to use inkstone to post to my blog, how do i syndicate it to the silos (twitter, et al)? does the blog have to do that?
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aaronpk
i'd be curious to see if they do that to a new account from a brand new un-cookied browser. i wonder if they recognize that browser was previously used on other twitter accounts
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tantek
"Your account appears to have exhibited automated behavior..." uh, no, there was literally no "behavior" other than the manual step of signing-up, searching for and following *one* account as part of the sign-up flow, and then confirming the account via the email they sent.
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tantek
then all I had to do was wait a few minutes and it reloaded into the locked screen
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tantek
aaronpk, good q, I could try that from a private browsing session too to see what happens
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tantek
if they're doing that, they're likely checking from-IP also
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tantek
I didn't even post a single tweet
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tantek
or follow anyone else
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aaronpk
i'm sure this is just part of their attempt to stop one-off troll accounts
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tantek
guilty until proven innocent? sounds like a silo tactic, similar to how they rel-nofollow all links from content
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tantek
which is just guilty until .. well I guess just guilty, no appeal
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ben_thatmustbeme
davidmead: yes, thats all on the blog's end, basically the micropub endpoint just gives a list of syndicate-to options, those are presented in inkstone's UI and then whichever options selected are sent with the post request
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ben_thatmustbeme
davidmead: what are you using for your site right now?
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GWG
I have a plan for adding support for that
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davidmead
WordPress
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tantek
gah I don't have time to deal with Twitter being dumb at the moment, going to have to post about this later
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tantek
KevinMarks: did you ever get @svgshare unlocked?
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tantek
also - did you ever post about svgshare getting locked as I suggested earlier?
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tantek
we should document all these errant instances of Twitter over-aggressively locking accounts
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GWG
davidmead, the Bridgy Publish plugin should in future register itself as a target
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davidmead
cool GWG
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KevinMarks
I posted on twitter, and yes it is now unlocked
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KevinMarks
Do they now lock by default if you don't give them a phone number?
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tantek
permalink to your post? and time between post and unlocking?
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tantek
it appears that not giving them a phone number may lock an account
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KevinMarks
I also sent a support ticket and replied to that email, and tweeted that
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Loqi
[indieweb] "I made a couple bookmarklets awhile back that you might find helpful as well: http://techlifeweb.com/bookmarklets-for-indieweb-favorites-and-retweets/ reply to &#60;a class=&#8221;u-in-reply-to&#8221; href=&#8221;http://davidjohnmead.com/blog/2016/12/28/10586/&#8221;&#62;David John Mead&#60;/a&#62;" by Scott Kingery on 2016-12-28 http://techlifeweb.com/15100-2/
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@kevinmarks
It's more than a little broken when @Support automatically accuses me of automated behaviour for tweeting once. Rea… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/813551438454353920
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Comment on Bookmarklets for #Indieweb Favorites and Retweets by TechLifeWeb" by TechLifeWeb on 2016-12-28 http://techlifeweb.com/bookmarklets-for-indieweb-favorites-and-retweets/#comment-123502
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tantek
KevinMarks, we should document our emails to support too
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cweiske
thinks there should be a better way to get the list of !tells
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi messages?
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: I usually ask that ^ :)
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi what happened to my +v?
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[dariusdunlap]
Year end goals update: Server upgraded to Ubuntu 16.04 LTS, Wordpress Upgraded, PHP7 enabled, Nginx updated, and server certs and keys moved to Let’s Encrypt. Qualsys SSL report rating A+ (which I had before… including HSTS).
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[dariusdunlap]
Ok, now to get outside for some sunshine. :slightly_smiling_face:
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GWG
Yay sunshine
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@artlung
@ChrisAldrich San Diego puts me _just_ beyond impulse meetup attendance. Nov. LA IndieWebCamp conflicted w/schedule. HWC is on my radar!
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mindB
Hello everyone. I wanted to introduce myself again. I'm developing my (static) website using indieweb principles and using the experience to learn html, css, js, etc. It's plain html right now but will slowly be improved from there.
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tantek
mindB - awesome! and welcome, again! :)
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tantek
mindB++
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Loqi
mindb has 1 karma
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mindB
Thanks! Excited to be here.
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cweiske
!tell petermolnar your feed 404s .. I had been using https://petermolnar.net/category/article/feed/
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar
missing rewrite rule, probably
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petermolnar
works without ending /
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petermolnar
I swapped the wp install with the static one
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petermolnar
still hunting bugs
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cweiske
for now I removed the trailing / in my tt-rss subscription
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tantek
sidefiles gonna fragile
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petermolnar
true, though this is mostly my fault
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petermolnar
trying to keep backwards-compatibility is tricky
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tantek
feedfiles in general are a backcompat issue
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petermolnar
I would have said parsing them is easier had I not read aaronpk's troubles a while ago when trying to make an rss/atom crossbreed
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tantek
it's definitely one of the myths about them
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tantek
the "parsing is easier" myth about feed files, XML, RDF, insert-fancy-new-format-here-that-rots-when-adopted-with-growth
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petermolnar
...json...
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petermolnar
I had more trouble with json parsers than with plain text with linebreak protocols
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tantek
now that's pretty hilarious
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petermolnar
cweiske it should be fixed
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tantek
aaronpk, I am seeing Twitter indicate "8" replies to your tweet https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/810170583291809792 but only one shows up at that link - are there more private replies there? or does that 8 included quoted tweet "replies" ?
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@aaronpk
Oh Google. Remind me why I should trust the longevity of any of your invented formats/vocabularies? Schema FAQ 2014… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/810170583291809792
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petermolnar
^^^ that article is a prime example why json is problematic, and when you try to use python json to send to perl json, it sometimes gets really messy
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petermolnar
for example
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aaronpk
tantek: apparently I was using that as a test post and my private account replied to it a bunch
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tantek
hah ok
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club TONIGHT! SF Join me & @KevinMarks @MozSF LA @ChrisAldrich @Starbucks 4430 York PDX @TheMagnoliaPDX for @AaronPK’s birthday “and talk about IndieWeb things anyway” Start times: 17:30 SF & PDX 19:00 LA SF RSVP: * known.kevinmarks.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-san-francisco-2016-12-28 * FB: https://www.facebook.com/events/1621525071477732/ More info: https://indieweb.org/events/2016-12-28-homebrew-website-club" on 2016-12-28 http://tantek.com/2016/363/t2/homebrew-website-club-tonight
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tantek
thanks Loqi
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Loqi
you're welcome
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mindB
Wait. If json is frowned upon as well as xml, what's the recommended format for data transfer? csv?
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mindB
I tend to think json is superior to most other options.
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tantek
mindB, depends on the context
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tantek
the problem is without context, JSON seems like a fine data transfer format, as does XML etc.
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tantek
in practice, if your "data transfer" use-case is "how do I server information from my webserver to someone who wants to view it", then HTML+microformats is the recommended "format"
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tantek
and superior to XML, JSON, etc.
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tantek
*serve information
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mindB
Ah. Gotcha. Most of my coding has happened in a data analysis context before so that tends to color my perception. Web presents different issues.
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tantek
yes, the contextual difference in those use-cases is quite significant!
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KevinMarks
Csv is far worse than json
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KevinMarks
Tsv is better than csv
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KevinMarks
The json examples in that article are instructive, but it's still better than xml
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mindB
csv is simple enought that it's difficult to create interoperability issues. Doesn't exhibit a lot of the issues from that article, but you give up some flexibility in return. That said I'll grant that delimiters other than commas are often much nicer to work with.
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KevinMarks
Csv has terrible escaping issues if your data has commas or quotes in
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KevinMarks
Because the default practice is both poorly defined and daft
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KevinMarks
Tsv has well defined escaping for the significant characters
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mindB
KevinMarks: could you link me somewhere where tsv escaping is defined. This is actually the first I'm hearing of it as a format with its own abbreviation.
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mindB
My googling isn't yielding much differentiating it from csv.
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KevinMarks
The quote escaping is not needed for tsv
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tantek
hello from HWC SF!
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tantek
in the midst of quiet writing hour with Kevin and Aaron (different aaron!)
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GWG
Hello, HWC SF
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GWG
I'm not being quiet
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tantek
GWG, you sounds quiet from here
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tantek
sound*
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GWG
tantek: I'm still trying to live up to my commitments.
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KartikPrabhu
wow! Slack unfurl seems to be using a combination of open graph and twitter meta stuff
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GWG
Darn. I have to completely rewrite another piece of this code. I really want to finish this.
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: the only topic for tonight's meeting is 2017-01-01 commitments - stuff to get built by new year
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: they're pre-new year resolutions - stuff to get done by 2017-01-01 on your website so you can do things there in the new year
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GWG
I will be really happy when my commitment is committed.
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: this started back in 2009 when I committed to post to my own site first from 2010, and we did some for 2015 as a group
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: this year we have a lot of interesting commitments listed at https://indieweb.org/2017-01-01-commitments
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: I already have notes, replies, favorites, photos - this year I want to own all my RSVPs on my site
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: At the moment I am manually reposting the RSVPs to the silos as wel
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Aaron: imagine if you had been using meetup for events, and you lost all your history
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: Brid.gy will see the facebook URLs and RSVP there as well
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tantek
What is Bridgy?
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Loqi
Bridgy is an open source project and proxy that implements backfeed and POSSE as a service https://indieweb.org/bridgy
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KevinMarks
looks like withknown doesn't like h-cite in RSVPs
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: in IRC you can ask 'what is Bridgy?' and Loqi will answer with a definition: http://indieweb.org/irc/2016-12-28/line/1482980959
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: my next step is to look for my RSVPs and get the event details back from them - parsing the remote event
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: the other thing going on this week is @aaronpk's 100 days of indieweb idea: https://indieweb.org/100DaysOfIndieWeb
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: he has decided to make 100 days of visible improvements to his indieweb sites: https://aaronparecki.com/tag/100daysofindieweb
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: also @aaronpk is doing 100 days of music too, composing and publishing a piece each day as a video: https://aaronparecki.com/tag/100daysofmusic
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @sdepolo: is there a non-silo'd option for posting video or audio?
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: https://archive.org allows you to upload video or audio that you created
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @kevinmarks: https://archive.org wants you to upload creative commons content, so they will host that for you.
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: so #100daysofindieweb seems much less hard than composing music every day
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: there are lots of 100 days things we could do - like 100 days of closing tabs
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: how about 100 days of contributing to wikipedia? You could just take photos of things and contribute those to wikimedia
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: how about 100 days of deleting accounts? I bet I have 100 accounts on websites I don't need
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: 100 days of deleting apps that you don't need?
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: 100 days of charity donations - post one every day
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KevinMarks
I put the birthday balloons into a plugin, but the script aaron is using seems to stomp the entire webpage
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@sdepolo
Thanks @tantek...I may be able to clear my open tabs by end of Q1 if I do this! #100daysIndieWeb #indieweb cc:… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/814319323602784256
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tantek
Happy birthday aaronpk !!!
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@sdepolo
Great ideas for doing something amazing in 2017 inspired by @aaronpk, @t & #indieWeb: https://indieweb.org/100DaysOfIndieWeb
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@indiescripter
Thanks for reply @aaronpk @indiewebcamp . Explained in my 1st #indieweb article. Hope counts as 1 of the 100 days! http://indiescripter.com/articles/reply-aaron-parecki-2016-12-29.html
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