#indieweb 2017-02-06

2017-02-06 UTC
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sebsel I guess this is a solution to http://indieweb.org/tweetstorm#How_do_you_POSSE_to_tweetstorm
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sebsel don't know if I should add it.
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sebsel It's late anyway, for now: good night :)
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miklb `
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KevinMarks That's crafty. I wonder if that would work for my noterlive posts
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KevinMarks Individual tweets are being retweeted
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KevinMarks This one, for example https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/826503700940197888
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@kevinmarks #msvsummit @varungyan: Google's scale is about 10^10 RPCs per second in our microservices (twitter.com/_/status/826503700940197888)
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tantek good evening #indieweb!
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tantek what no mention of the Squarespace Malkovich "own your name domain name" superbowl ad?!?
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aaronpk What's so superb about this owl?
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tantek hahaha
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Loqi ahaha
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[dgold] Loads of ads
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[dgold] So totally awsum
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tantek aaronpk, seriously, another parody candidate.
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tantek looks for video
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aaronpk Probably about time to update that :-)
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[dgold] Mind you, I'm watching it on the BBC, so adverts are something rather theoretical
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tantek what is pingback spam?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pingback spam" yet. Would you like to create it?_M
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tantek what is spam?
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Loqi spam is unsolicited content, often transmitted via email, submitted as blog comments or posted to popular wikis https://indieweb.org/spam
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tantek Pingback spam is /spam#Pingback_Spam
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Loqi ok
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tantek KevinMarks++ for providing the Ars Technica article
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Loqi kevinmarks has 207 karma in this channel (267 overall)
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aaronpk Okay the ad was pretty funny
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tantek I think even funnier (and more direct) than the previous one
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tantek what is Pingback DDOS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Pingback DDOS" yet. Would you like to create it?_N
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aaronpk Of course YouTube wanted to show me an ad before it let me watch that ad
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tantek yo dawg...
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tantek Pingback DDOS is /DDOS#Pingback_DDOS
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Loqi ok
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tantek catches up on #indieweb logs
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tantek realizes he has to do his 100DoPP for the day
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mblaney hi everyone
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mblaney would love some feedback on my micropub client, if anyone wants to try and log in at unicyclic.com?
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mblaney aaronpk, one thing I noticed while working on setting up micropub is that it doesn't look like I can use your indieauth token endpoint with a path in my domain?
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GWG I've been trying to figure out a Webmention problem.
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GWG Anyone available to act as a sounding board?
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tantek GWG, usability problem? or dev problem (#indieweb-dev?)
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GWG Both
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tantek ah, let's start with the usability problem then!
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tantek (and here)
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tantek sound away
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tantek having posted his 100DoPP for the day, goes to get dinner
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GWG I asked pfefferle about reuniting Semantic Linkbacks and Webmentions and his response gives me pause
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aaronpk mblaney: someone else mentioned that earlier. I can fix it pretty quick, just need to double check nothing unexpected will happen
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GWG His comment was that Semantic Linkbacks was a bit hacky, which is why he kept it separate.
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tantek GWG, hmm, that's kind of a good reason for segregating code / libraries / plugins.
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mblaney thanks aaronpk, wasn't sure if it was because multiple users on the same domain might cause problems.
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tantek I suppose my follow up question would be to ask for specifics, like, what parts are hacky? and what are some standards for inclusion?
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GWG Well, I was trying to figure out what could come over. I came up with a list.
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GWG I can't argue that there are issues. Not sure if there are solutions.
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GWG For one, specifications for WordPress require PHP5.2, and php-mf2 is 5.4, but unofficially 5.3.
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GWG So, first you have an inclusion issue.
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GWG Then you have the fact that webmentions use the comment system in WordPress, with a comment type of webmention. The implemented solution was to set the webmention type(reply, repost, etc) as a piece of metadata.
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tantek GWG, I'd be interested to hear snarfed's opinion of the inclusion issue, since he uses that plugin right?
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GWG tantek: Correct.
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GWG The question I'm contemplating is this...if you take out mf2 parsing...what is left?
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tantek specifically his opinion as a user of the plugin, and also his developer opinion as to whether it is "hacky" or what could someone mean by that (does he have suggestions for improving the code structure)
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GWG I'm not sure if he has looked at it. But if I see him on...I probably will.
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tantek GWG, something to consider is expanding the "Webmention" plugin to do all the sending, receiving, parsing of received webmentions, and display as comments, likes, reposts, etc.
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tantek from a user perspective
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GWG tantek: That would be a merger of the two plugins.
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tantek i.e. if I as a user installed a "Webmention" plugin, I would *expect* to get all those user features
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GWG But it means resolving the concerns about design, I'd imagine.
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tantek I would NOT expect that it would be minimal plumbing, and that I'd have to dig for more obscurely name plugins to get the *actual* functionality I have heard so much about that makes Webmentions different (better) for a user than Pingback
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GWG tantek: I agree. That is why I brought the question up.
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tantek just theoretical user-centric thoughts off the top of my head as a minimal user of WordPress
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GWG I want to figure out how to bring them back together, even if it is in stages.
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tantek GWG, then it's likely worth adding to a Brainstorming section on the wiki page for the plugin
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tantek what is the Webmention plugin?
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Loqi The Wordpress Webmention Plugin is a WordPress plugin that adds webmention support to WordPress https://indieweb.org/Webmention_Plugin
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tantek GWG, could you add a Brainstorming section to https://indieweb.org/Wordpress_Webmention_Plugin that describes that user desire since you and I both seem to agree on that scope?
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tantek that would be a good way to drive development, start by documenting user expectations of functionality
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GWG Not just you and I. Reports of people not understanding this have been going on for a bit
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tantek great - add links to those too!
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tantek this is the "show your work" step of doing UX / development design / "architecture" :)
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tantek (brainstorming + citing actual user experiences)
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GWG We also have a Semantic Linkbacks page
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tantek that's good to just document that current plugin
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tantek I don't think the name is worthy of saving / evolving. I think you and I have discussed this before.
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tantek let's focus on the "Webmention plugin"
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GWG tantek: It is worthy of maintaining until such a time as we figure out how to address the issue.
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GWG What about Pingbacks?
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GWG The SL plugin enhanced Pingbacks and Trackbacks.
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GWG I don't think there is any point in enhancing Trackbacks, but Pingbacks are 'iffy'.
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tantek Pingbacks have such (growing) negative reputation that it may be worth just cutting our losses there with attempts to be backcompat
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tantek the recent article on Pingback DDOS changed my opinion
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tantek from "sure, be compat with Pingbacks" to "don't bother, and cut off pingbacks from any future work / dependency"
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tantek especially once we start more broadly deploying and depending on Vouch, at that point, Pingback is pretty much dead
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tantek as in, we don't want to encourage any more use of it
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GWG In this case, the code is there. It is just a matter of executing it on receiving a Pingback. But that doesn't have to be enabled by default.
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GWG It can be a footnote
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tantek right, turning it off by default would be a good first step
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GWG Pingbacks are a Core feature, so turning them off is a whole other ball of wax.
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GWG Also, I'm not sure if turning off Pingbacks is a conflict of interest.
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GWG Considering I'm the Pingbacks and Trackbacks component maintainer
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GWG On the other hand, I agreed with something of an ulterior motive
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tantek GWG, no, it is more of a *responsibility* as a component maintainer, because of growing evidence that it Pingback is increasingly becoming a way that WordPress unintentionally makes the internet/web worse, by enabling Pingback DDOS
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GWG tantek: If you were to summarize it in a single sentence, how does webmention address DDOS issues vs pingback?
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tantek anyway, start with adding "Brainstorming" section to https://indieweb.org/Wordpress_Webmention_Plugin and we can iterate positively from there.
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tantek GWG, wrong prioritization, let's work on improving the Webmention experience first, before trying to come up with precise wording about webmention vs. pingback
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tantek you can pretty much procrastinate on Pingback issues for now
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tantek just telegraphing the writing on the wall for what's inevitably going to have to happen
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GWG I can anyway.
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GWG If it isn't Editor, Customizer, or REST, it isn't going into WordPress right now
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tantek that's ok, it's *still* premature to put Webmention into WordPress Core IMO, until we've got Vouch working *by default* in the WordPress plugin
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tantek anyway - start that Brainstorming section, and once you've taken a first crack at it, I'll add to it (e.g. about Vouch)
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GWG tantek: Webmentions in WordPress are also still processed synchronously.
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tantek great, capture that as an Issue in the same wiki page
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GWG We are much closer than we were
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KevinMarks_ @mblaney I get "There was an SSL error connecting to https://known.kevinmarks.com/"
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tantek same
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tantek from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13570227 "I do avoid "articles" on Github pages if they still have the format of crankydev.github.com. I don't know why, but they all follow a similar format. I mean, buy a domain name and map it, right?" LOL
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KevinMarks_ He means github.io
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KevinMarks_ GWG: what would it take to backport php-mf2 to 5.2?
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GWG KevinMarks_: Removal of namespaces
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GWG That is the only issue
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tantek namespaces-- FTFY
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Loqi namespaces has -5 karma in this channel (-7 overall)
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tantek KevinMarks, you should totally github-static-hosting-splain that as a reply to his comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=13572744&goto=item%3Fid%3D13570227%2313572744 ;)
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GWG But that is only one thing.
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tantek one thing at a time
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GWG There was a bit of pushback when I tried to keep backcompat with 5.3
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tantek interesting (and odd)
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tantek probably worth shifting to #indieweb-dev
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tantek "PHP" being the key indicator of that ;)
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mblaney KevinMarks, tantek, thanks for the feedback! It's because I was defaulting to https without a scheme. All fixed would you mind trying again?
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KevinMarks_ Is php-mf2 stable enough to fork it into a 5.2 compatible version?
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aaronpk see #indieweb-dev
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tantek wow https://twitter.com/squarespace apparently deliberately tweeted out a bunch of .com domain names that were not taken - and people promptly registered them (with other providers!) and redirected them
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KartikPrabhu they had a superbowl ad starring John malkovich
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tantek KartikPrabhu: previously: https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-02-06/1486343969859000
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Loqi [tantek] what no mention of the Squarespace Malkovich "own your name domain name" superbowl ad?!?
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KartikPrabhu Loqi now tells you the chat line!! sweet
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KartikPrabhu Loqi++
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Loqi loqi has 55 karma in this channel (414 overall)
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KartikPrabhu chats logs now link directly to the line with no context?
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tantek no they link to both, try the "#"
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KartikPrabhu that doesn't work for some timezoe reason I suspect
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tantek yeah I raised that to aaronpk in the past few days sometime
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KevinMarks_ https://portier.github.io/
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Loqi [indieweb] "#Superbowl ads up a notch. Beyond #indieweb https://youtu.be/_IuIBfuPdt0 ads on #feminism #immigration #nobannowall #RESIST" on 2017-02-06 http://tantek.com/2017/037/t1/superbowl-ads-up-notch
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@t #Superbowl ads up a notch. Beyond #indieweb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IuIBfuPdt0&feature=youtu.be ads on #feminism #immigration #nobannowall #RESIST (ttk.me t4mi1) (twitter.com/_/status/828520504046796801)
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mindB Morning everyone.
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mindB Here's an interesting talk from one of the matrix.org guys about some of the problems they're having which includes mapping non-matrix identifiers to matrix ids. Webfist is specifically mentioned, and someone asks about indieweb from the audience. http://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/fosdem-video/2017/AW1.125/matrix_future.vp8.webm
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mindB Better link: http://video.fosdem.org/2017/AW1.125/matrix_future.vp8.webm
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jeremycherfas Good morning
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GWG Morning
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Loqi good morning
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pfefferle good morning
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[cdevroe] Good morning.
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[cdevroe] GWG I’m looking to spend a few minutes today figuring out how to get the Bridgy Publish plugin to fire the proper action for the WordPress app
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GWG cdevroe, I finished the work on Syndication Links, and did some bug fixes on Simple Location. So I will be troubleshooting same tonight
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[cdevroe] GWG Are those fixes pushed?
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[cdevroe] I see Syndication Links has an update.
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GWG To Github yes. Syndication Links was also pushed to the WordPress repo
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[cdevroe] The changelog doesn’t tell me what has been changed. Or, are the updates simply under-the-hood changes?
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GWG For 3.1.0 or 3.1.1? One was a bugfix on the other
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GWG And the details show up in my changelog
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GWG Including some for you. You asked for more presentation control when calling the display function directly
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GWG original-of query
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GWG Etc
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[cdevroe] GWG I see, I didn’t realize it was 2 point releases that I was looking at. The 3.1.1 bullets were a bit “inside baseball"
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GWG I found some undiscovered bugs and released a fix for them. Happens
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[cdevroe] thumbsup
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@cdevroe @joshuaginter Thanks for the link. You should consider Webmentions so that my post auto-links back to yours. https://indieweb.org/webmention (twitter.com/_/status/828606148106399744)
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sebsel tantek sent me back from #microformats to #indieweb for this :)
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sebsel I now have a new library on my site: a list of books. And I have marked them up with h-cite, because that's for books. But now I'm thinking, shouldn't they be `h-product`s? I am not really citing them, more displaying them as objects.
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tantek sebsel: your use-case is #indieweb so we start here :)
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tantek what is a library?
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Loqi A library in this context typically refers to a software library, and sometimes to a physical library, like a personal library that an independent may use to collect books they have read https://indieweb.org/library
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sebsel yeah, I already found that http://microformats.org/wiki/h-product does not have an author!
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Loqi h-product
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sebsel reads up on /library
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tantek h-product cannot assume book!
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sebsel that's true! I already consume the author, though.
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sebsel https://seblog.nl/2017/01/16/1/stoner << read post.
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Loqi There was an error: missingtitle, The page you specified doesn't exist
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Loqi [Sebastiaan Andeweg] Seb is op pagina 130 van Stoner van John Williams.
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sebsel error?
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tantek try php-mf2
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sebsel oh, no, I used the < < syntax
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tantek hah
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sebsel so although h-product might be more suited in the context of which I list my books, the h-cite provides me with typical book-like features like p-author.
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sebsel can't help thinking u-read-of and u-watch-of are all just u-checkin (or at least related)
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tantek the checkin to media thing is still a bit contested as a re-use or abuse of "checkin"
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sebsel I will stick with u-read-of > h-cite for now
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tantek abuse as in, has dilutionary impact on the actual useful meaning of "checkin" (physical world implications)
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sebsel yeah KevinMarks gave a counter example: checking in to a cinema ánd a movie at the same time
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sebsel you can have an array of u-checkin though.
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sebsel but I see the IRL/virtual distinction
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tantek sebsel - no that's not a counter example at all
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tantek the cinema is a physical venue
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sebsel ehh, yeah, it's a counter example for my "it's the same"
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tantek the movie in that case is an instance of a physically bound *event*
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sebsel so an example of "it's not the same"
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tantek ah ok - I thought you meant movie as in media
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sebsel I believe I did. I am confused now.
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sebsel either way, that's an example of mixing real life vs virtual.
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sebsel but read-of and watch-of have a similar meaning still, right? it would be great to have one word for that
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tantek sebsel - no there is no mixing there, the virtual is just a side-effect
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tantek real life always has virtual side-effects. it's called memory :P
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tantek (or physical if you want to document the neural connections ;) )
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tantek what is read-of?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "read-of" yet. Would you like to create it?_P
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tantek what is watch-of?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "watch-of" yet. Would you like to create it?_Q
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tantek hmm
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sebsel what is read?
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Loqi To read or reading is the act of viewing and interpreting posts or other documents; on the IndieWeb, a read post expresses that something has been read, like a book or section thereof https://indieweb.org/read
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sebsel what is watch?
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Loqi A watch is a semi-passive type of post used to publish that you have watched a video — typically movie, TV show, or other video recordings https://indieweb.org/watch
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sebsel there they are :)
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snarfed1 examines https://seblog.nl/bieb
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Loqi [W.F. Hermans] Nooit meer slapen
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tantek what is an exercise watch?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "exercise watch" yet. Would you like to create it?_R
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tantek what is Suunto?
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Loqi Suunto is a maker of exercise watches for running and other physical activities that tracks GPS and heart rate, and can sync with a web silo at movescount.com or the Suunto mobile native app https://indieweb.org/Suunto
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snarfed1 is still embarrassed that there's no useful markup on https://snarfed.org/books etc
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] books
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tantek exercise watch is a watch that beyond telling the time, typically tracks GPS, sometimes heartrate, and other exercise related metrics, to help create [[exercise]] posts.
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Loqi ok
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tantek exercise watch << [[Suunto]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Suunto]]" to the "See Also" section of /exercise watch
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sebsel snarfed1 you actually have some sort of h-review on that page as well!
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tantek leaves it as an exercise for the channel to disambiguate "watch" ;)
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snarfed1 sebsel: really? i don't think so
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snarfed1 https://mf2.kylewm.com/?url=https://snarfed.org/books
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sebsel ah, no, yeah. I'm not saying this right.
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sebsel you have reviews on there.
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sebsel sorry :)
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snarfed1 yes!
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sebsel kylewm's poor parser stopped halfway.
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Loqi [indieweb] "Checking out [quill](quill.p3k.io) to see if I can use it to post to my WithKnown site. Seems to be a reply? #indieweb" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-02-06 https://vaviblog.com/2017/checking-out-quillquillp3kio-to-see-if-i-can-use-it
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Zegnat Did YouTube kills its RSS feeds? (He asks knowing he is probably the only one using them.)
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tantek are they documented on /YouTube ?
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Zegnat What is YouTube?
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Loqi YouTube is a video hosting silo that has known issues https://indieweb.org/youtube
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Zegnat Hmm, tried a random feed, seems OK. So either they changed their syntax or my feed reader service is not picking them up. This is strange.
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Zegnat Looks like /YouTube is more about issues than usage.
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: seemed to be wroking for me as of last week
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Zegnat Worked for me as of yesterday, KartikPrabhu
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Zegnat But coming home to 0 new videos is a bit of a tell that something has gone wrong
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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Zegnat I follow 62 YouTube feeds, some of those are on a minimum 2-video-a-day schedule.
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KartikPrabhu you could check if they have new videos on their channel that didn't show up in your feed
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KartikPrabhu that should settle it
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Zegnat Oh, they have.
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Zegnat So I am trying to track down what they did, or if its my reader.
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Zegnat Apparently a service issue: https://github.com/feedbin/support/issues/564
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techlifeweb If any Known (withknown) users have comments on this I'd be interested: http://stream.techlifeweb.com/2017/indieweb-what-is-the-best-wet-to-favorite-a-tweet
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Loqi [Scott Kingery] #indieweb what is the best way to favorite a Tweet in Known?
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Zegnat tantek, YouTube feeds are now documented on the wiki.
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KevinMarks interesting: https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2017/02/06/whats-in-an-amp-url/amp/
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KevinMarks AMP << https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2017/02/06/whats-in-an-amp-url/amp/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2017/02/06/whats-in-an-amp-url/amp/" to the "See Also" section of /Accelerated Mobile Pages
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KevinMarks hm, no preview for the amp version. Does this one show a preview? https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2017/02/06/whats-in-an-amp-url/
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aaronpk i wonder if they launched with the new rel value like they were discussing
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KevinMarks_ Just canonical in the amp page, and canonical and bookmark in the wp page
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KevinMarks_ The post says canonical too
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KevinMarks_ I suspect sharelink would be an extension for tracking purposes like the utm_blah stuff
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tantek so it's not really necessary
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KevinMarks right, as the discussion in http://microformats.org/wiki/sharelink-formats shows
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Loqi sharelink formats
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/cramforce/status/828707252873818112
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@cramforce @kevinmarks still discussing with various parties. In any case we'd always fallback to canonical, so we can add sharelink transparently. (twitter.com/_/status/828707252873818112)
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tantek "various parties" (citation?)
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@TechLifeWeb @ChrisAldrich I'm experimenting with Known. Curious how you are doing likes and retweets. See my post http://stream.techlifeweb.com/2017/indieweb-what-is-the-best-wet-to-favorite-a-tweet (twitter.com/_/status/828744978188922880)
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tantek best wet?
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tantek wonders if Known added that feature for editing slugs
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