#indieweb 2017-02-06

2017-02-06 UTC
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sebsel
don't know if I should add it.
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sebsel
It's late anyway, for now: good night :)
friedcell, sebsel and mlncn joined the channel
miklb_, friedcell and KevinMarks joined the channel
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KevinMarks
That's crafty. I wonder if that would work for my noterlive posts
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KevinMarks
Individual tweets are being retweeted
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@kevinmarks
#msvsummit @varungyan: Google's scale is about 10^10 RPCs per second in our microservices
(twitter.com/_/status/826503700940197888)
tantek joined the channel
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tantek
good evening #indieweb!
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tantek
what no mention of the Squarespace Malkovich "own your name domain name" superbowl ad?!?
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aaronpk
What's so superb about this owl?
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tantek
hahaha
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Loqi
ahaha
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[dgold]
Loads of ads
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[dgold]
So totally awsum
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tantek
aaronpk, seriously, another parody candidate.
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tantek
looks for video
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aaronpk
Probably about time to update that :-)
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[dgold]
Mind you, I'm watching it on the BBC, so adverts are something rather theoretical
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tantek
what is pingback spam?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "pingback spam" yet. Would you like to create it?_M
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tantek
what is spam?
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Loqi
spam is unsolicited content, often transmitted via email, submitted as blog comments or posted to popular wikis https://indieweb.org/spam
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tantek
KevinMarks++ for providing the Ars Technica article
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Loqi
kevinmarks has 207 karma in this channel (267 overall)
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aaronpk
Okay the ad was pretty funny
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tantek
I think even funnier (and more direct) than the previous one
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tantek
what is Pingback DDOS?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Pingback DDOS" yet. Would you like to create it?_N
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aaronpk
Of course YouTube wanted to show me an ad before it let me watch that ad
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tantek
yo dawg...
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tantek
catches up on #indieweb logs
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tantek
realizes he has to do his 100DoPP for the day
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mblaney
hi everyone
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mblaney
would love some feedback on my micropub client, if anyone wants to try and log in at unicyclic.com?
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mblaney
aaronpk, one thing I noticed while working on setting up micropub is that it doesn't look like I can use your indieauth token endpoint with a path in my domain?
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GWG
I've been trying to figure out a Webmention problem.
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GWG
Anyone available to act as a sounding board?
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tantek
GWG, usability problem? or dev problem (#indieweb-dev?)
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GWG
Both
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tantek
ah, let's start with the usability problem then!
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tantek
(and here)
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tantek
sound away
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tantek
having posted his 100DoPP for the day, goes to get dinner
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GWG
I asked pfefferle about reuniting Semantic Linkbacks and Webmentions and his response gives me pause
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aaronpk
mblaney: someone else mentioned that earlier. I can fix it pretty quick, just need to double check nothing unexpected will happen
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GWG
His comment was that Semantic Linkbacks was a bit hacky, which is why he kept it separate.
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tantek
GWG, hmm, that's kind of a good reason for segregating code / libraries / plugins.
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mblaney
thanks aaronpk, wasn't sure if it was because multiple users on the same domain might cause problems.
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tantek
I suppose my follow up question would be to ask for specifics, like, what parts are hacky? and what are some standards for inclusion?
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GWG
Well, I was trying to figure out what could come over. I came up with a list.
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GWG
I can't argue that there are issues. Not sure if there are solutions.
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GWG
For one, specifications for WordPress require PHP5.2, and php-mf2 is 5.4, but unofficially 5.3.
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GWG
So, first you have an inclusion issue.
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GWG
Then you have the fact that webmentions use the comment system in WordPress, with a comment type of webmention. The implemented solution was to set the webmention type(reply, repost, etc) as a piece of metadata.
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tantek
GWG, I'd be interested to hear snarfed's opinion of the inclusion issue, since he uses that plugin right?
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GWG
tantek: Correct.
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GWG
The question I'm contemplating is this...if you take out mf2 parsing...what is left?
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tantek
specifically his opinion as a user of the plugin, and also his developer opinion as to whether it is "hacky" or what could someone mean by that (does he have suggestions for improving the code structure)
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GWG
I'm not sure if he has looked at it. But if I see him on...I probably will.
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tantek
GWG, something to consider is expanding the "Webmention" plugin to do all the sending, receiving, parsing of received webmentions, and display as comments, likes, reposts, etc.
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tantek
from a user perspective
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GWG
tantek: That would be a merger of the two plugins.
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tantek
i.e. if I as a user installed a "Webmention" plugin, I would *expect* to get all those user features
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GWG
But it means resolving the concerns about design, I'd imagine.
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tantek
I would NOT expect that it would be minimal plumbing, and that I'd have to dig for more obscurely name plugins to get the *actual* functionality I have heard so much about that makes Webmentions different (better) for a user than Pingback
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GWG
tantek: I agree. That is why I brought the question up.
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tantek
just theoretical user-centric thoughts off the top of my head as a minimal user of WordPress
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GWG
I want to figure out how to bring them back together, even if it is in stages.
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tantek
GWG, then it's likely worth adding to a Brainstorming section on the wiki page for the plugin
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tantek
what is the Webmention plugin?
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Loqi
The Wordpress Webmention Plugin is a WordPress plugin that adds webmention support to WordPress https://indieweb.org/Webmention_Plugin
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tantek
GWG, could you add a Brainstorming section to https://indieweb.org/Wordpress_Webmention_Plugin that describes that user desire since you and I both seem to agree on that scope?
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tantek
that would be a good way to drive development, start by documenting user expectations of functionality
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GWG
Not just you and I. Reports of people not understanding this have been going on for a bit
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tantek
great - add links to those too!
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tantek
this is the "show your work" step of doing UX / development design / "architecture" :)
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tantek
(brainstorming + citing actual user experiences)
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GWG
We also have a Semantic Linkbacks page
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tantek
that's good to just document that current plugin
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tantek
I don't think the name is worthy of saving / evolving. I think you and I have discussed this before.
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tantek
let's focus on the "Webmention plugin"
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GWG
tantek: It is worthy of maintaining until such a time as we figure out how to address the issue.
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GWG
What about Pingbacks?
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GWG
The SL plugin enhanced Pingbacks and Trackbacks.
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GWG
I don't think there is any point in enhancing Trackbacks, but Pingbacks are 'iffy'.
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tantek
Pingbacks have such (growing) negative reputation that it may be worth just cutting our losses there with attempts to be backcompat
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tantek
the recent article on Pingback DDOS changed my opinion
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tantek
from "sure, be compat with Pingbacks" to "don't bother, and cut off pingbacks from any future work / dependency"
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tantek
especially once we start more broadly deploying and depending on Vouch, at that point, Pingback is pretty much dead
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tantek
as in, we don't want to encourage any more use of it
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GWG
In this case, the code is there. It is just a matter of executing it on receiving a Pingback. But that doesn't have to be enabled by default.
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GWG
It can be a footnote
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tantek
right, turning it off by default would be a good first step
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GWG
Pingbacks are a Core feature, so turning them off is a whole other ball of wax.
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GWG
Also, I'm not sure if turning off Pingbacks is a conflict of interest.
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GWG
Considering I'm the Pingbacks and Trackbacks component maintainer
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GWG
On the other hand, I agreed with something of an ulterior motive
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tantek
GWG, no, it is more of a *responsibility* as a component maintainer, because of growing evidence that it Pingback is increasingly becoming a way that WordPress unintentionally makes the internet/web worse, by enabling Pingback DDOS
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GWG
tantek: If you were to summarize it in a single sentence, how does webmention address DDOS issues vs pingback?
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tantek
anyway, start with adding "Brainstorming" section to https://indieweb.org/Wordpress_Webmention_Plugin and we can iterate positively from there.
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tantek
GWG, wrong prioritization, let's work on improving the Webmention experience first, before trying to come up with precise wording about webmention vs. pingback
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tantek
you can pretty much procrastinate on Pingback issues for now
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tantek
just telegraphing the writing on the wall for what's inevitably going to have to happen
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GWG
I can anyway.
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GWG
If it isn't Editor, Customizer, or REST, it isn't going into WordPress right now
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tantek
that's ok, it's *still* premature to put Webmention into WordPress Core IMO, until we've got Vouch working *by default* in the WordPress plugin
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tantek
anyway - start that Brainstorming section, and once you've taken a first crack at it, I'll add to it (e.g. about Vouch)
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GWG
tantek: Webmentions in WordPress are also still processed synchronously.
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tantek
great, capture that as an Issue in the same wiki page
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GWG
We are much closer than we were
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KevinMarks_
@mblaney I get "There was an SSL error connecting to https://known.kevinmarks.com/"
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tantek
from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13570227 "I do avoid "articles" on Github pages if they still have the format of crankydev.github.com. I don't know why, but they all follow a similar format. I mean, buy a domain name and map it, right?" LOL
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KevinMarks_
He means github.io
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KevinMarks_
GWG: what would it take to backport php-mf2 to 5.2?
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GWG
KevinMarks_: Removal of namespaces
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GWG
That is the only issue
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tantek
namespaces-- FTFY
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Loqi
namespaces has -5 karma in this channel (-7 overall)
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tantek
KevinMarks, you should totally github-static-hosting-splain that as a reply to his comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=13572744&goto=item%3Fid%3D13570227%2313572744 ;)
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GWG
But that is only one thing.
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tantek
one thing at a time
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GWG
There was a bit of pushback when I tried to keep backcompat with 5.3
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tantek
interesting (and odd)
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tantek
probably worth shifting to #indieweb-dev
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tantek
"PHP" being the key indicator of that ;)
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mblaney
KevinMarks, tantek, thanks for the feedback! It's because I was defaulting to https without a scheme. All fixed would you mind trying again?
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KevinMarks_
Is php-mf2 stable enough to fork it into a 5.2 compatible version?
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aaronpk
see #indieweb-dev
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tantek
wow https://twitter.com/squarespace apparently deliberately tweeted out a bunch of .com domain names that were not taken - and people promptly registered them (with other providers!) and redirected them
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KartikPrabhu
they had a superbowl ad starring John malkovich
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Loqi
[tantek] what no mention of the Squarespace Malkovich "own your name domain name" superbowl ad?!?
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi now tells you the chat line!! sweet
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Loqi
loqi has 55 karma in this channel (414 overall)
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KartikPrabhu
chats logs now link directly to the line with no context?
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tantek
no they link to both, try the "#"
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KartikPrabhu
that doesn't work for some timezoe reason I suspect
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tantek
yeah I raised that to aaronpk in the past few days sometime
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Loqi
[indieweb] "#Superbowl ads up a notch. Beyond #indieweb https://youtu.be/_IuIBfuPdt0 ads on #feminism #immigration #nobannowall #RESIST" on 2017-02-06 http://tantek.com/2017/037/t1/superbowl-ads-up-notch
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@t
#Superbowl ads up a notch. Beyond #indieweb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IuIBfuPdt0&feature=youtu.be ads on #feminism #immigration #nobannowall #RESIST (ttk.me t4mi1)
(twitter.com/_/status/828520504046796801)
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mindB
Morning everyone.
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mindB
Here's an interesting talk from one of the matrix.org guys about some of the problems they're having which includes mapping non-matrix identifiers to matrix ids. Webfist is specifically mentioned, and someone asks about indieweb from the audience. http://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/fosdem-video/2017/AW1.125/matrix_future.vp8.webm
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jeremycherfas
Good morning
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GWG
Morning
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Loqi
good morning
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pfefferle
good morning
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[cdevroe]
Good morning.
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[cdevroe]
GWG I’m looking to spend a few minutes today figuring out how to get the Bridgy Publish plugin to fire the proper action for the WordPress app
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GWG
cdevroe, I finished the work on Syndication Links, and did some bug fixes on Simple Location. So I will be troubleshooting same tonight
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[cdevroe]
GWG Are those fixes pushed?
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[cdevroe]
I see Syndication Links has an update.
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GWG
To Github yes. Syndication Links was also pushed to the WordPress repo
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[cdevroe]
The changelog doesn’t tell me what has been changed. Or, are the updates simply under-the-hood changes?
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GWG
For 3.1.0 or 3.1.1? One was a bugfix on the other
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GWG
And the details show up in my changelog
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GWG
Including some for you. You asked for more presentation control when calling the display function directly
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GWG
original-of query
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GWG
Etc
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[cdevroe]
GWG I see, I didn’t realize it was 2 point releases that I was looking at. The 3.1.1 bullets were a bit “inside baseball"
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GWG
I found some undiscovered bugs and released a fix for them. Happens
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[cdevroe]
thumbsup
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@cdevroe
@joshuaginter Thanks for the link. You should consider Webmentions so that my post auto-links back to yours. https://indieweb.org/webmention
(twitter.com/_/status/828606148106399744)
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sebsel
tantek sent me back from #microformats to #indieweb for this :)
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sebsel
I now have a new library on my site: a list of books. And I have marked them up with h-cite, because that's for books. But now I'm thinking, shouldn't they be `h-product`s? I am not really citing them, more displaying them as objects.
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tantek
sebsel: your use-case is #indieweb so we start here :)
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tantek
what is a library?
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Loqi
A library in this context typically refers to a software library, and sometimes to a physical library, like a personal library that an independent may use to collect books they have read https://indieweb.org/library
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sebsel
yeah, I already found that http://microformats.org/wiki/h-product does not have an author!
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Loqi
h-product
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sebsel
reads up on /library
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tantek
h-product cannot assume book!
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sebsel
that's true! I already consume the author, though.
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Loqi
There was an error: missingtitle, The page you specified doesn't exist
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Loqi
[Sebastiaan Andeweg] Seb is op pagina 130 van Stoner van John Williams.
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sebsel
error?
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tantek
try php-mf2
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sebsel
oh, no, I used the < < syntax
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sebsel
so although h-product might be more suited in the context of which I list my books, the h-cite provides me with typical book-like features like p-author.
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sebsel
can't help thinking u-read-of and u-watch-of are all just u-checkin (or at least related)
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tantek
the checkin to media thing is still a bit contested as a re-use or abuse of "checkin"
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sebsel
I will stick with u-read-of > h-cite for now
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tantek
abuse as in, has dilutionary impact on the actual useful meaning of "checkin" (physical world implications)
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sebsel
yeah KevinMarks gave a counter example: checking in to a cinema ánd a movie at the same time
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sebsel
you can have an array of u-checkin though.
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sebsel
but I see the IRL/virtual distinction
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tantek
sebsel - no that's not a counter example at all
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tantek
the cinema is a physical venue
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sebsel
ehh, yeah, it's a counter example for my "it's the same"
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tantek
the movie in that case is an instance of a physically bound *event*
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sebsel
so an example of "it's not the same"
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tantek
ah ok - I thought you meant movie as in media
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sebsel
I believe I did. I am confused now.
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sebsel
either way, that's an example of mixing real life vs virtual.
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sebsel
but read-of and watch-of have a similar meaning still, right? it would be great to have one word for that
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tantek
sebsel - no there is no mixing there, the virtual is just a side-effect
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tantek
real life always has virtual side-effects. it's called memory :P
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tantek
(or physical if you want to document the neural connections ;) )
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tantek
what is read-of?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "read-of" yet. Would you like to create it?_P
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tantek
what is watch-of?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "watch-of" yet. Would you like to create it?_Q
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sebsel
what is read?
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Loqi
To read or reading is the act of viewing and interpreting posts or other documents; on the IndieWeb, a read post expresses that something has been read, like a book or section thereof https://indieweb.org/read
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sebsel
what is watch?
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Loqi
A watch is a semi-passive type of post used to publish that you have watched a video — typically movie, TV show, or other video recordings https://indieweb.org/watch
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sebsel
there they are :)
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snarfed1
examines https://seblog.nl/bieb
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Loqi
[W.F. Hermans] Nooit meer slapen
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tantek
what is an exercise watch?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "exercise watch" yet. Would you like to create it?_R
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tantek
what is Suunto?
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Loqi
Suunto is a maker of exercise watches for running and other physical activities that tracks GPS and heart rate, and can sync with a web silo at movescount.com or the Suunto mobile native app https://indieweb.org/Suunto
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snarfed1
is still embarrassed that there's no useful markup on https://snarfed.org/books etc
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Loqi
[Ryan Barrett] books
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tantek
exercise watch is a watch that beyond telling the time, typically tracks GPS, sometimes heartrate, and other exercise related metrics, to help create [[exercise]] posts.
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tantek
exercise watch << [[Suunto]]
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Loqi
ok, I added "[[Suunto]]" to the "See Also" section of /exercise watch
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sebsel
snarfed1 you actually have some sort of h-review on that page as well!
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tantek
leaves it as an exercise for the channel to disambiguate "watch" ;)
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snarfed1
sebsel: really? i don't think so
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sebsel
ah, no, yeah. I'm not saying this right.
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sebsel
you have reviews on there.
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sebsel
sorry :)
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snarfed1
yes!
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sebsel
kylewm's poor parser stopped halfway.
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Checking out [quill](quill.p3k.io) to see if I can use it to post to my WithKnown site. Seems to be a reply? #indieweb" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-02-06 https://vaviblog.com/2017/checking-out-quillquillp3kio-to-see-if-i-can-use-it
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Zegnat
Did YouTube kills its RSS feeds? (He asks knowing he is probably the only one using them.)
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tantek
are they documented on /YouTube ?
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Zegnat
What is YouTube?
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Loqi
YouTube is a video hosting silo that has known issues https://indieweb.org/youtube
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Zegnat
Hmm, tried a random feed, seems OK. So either they changed their syntax or my feed reader service is not picking them up. This is strange.
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Zegnat
Looks like /YouTube is more about issues than usage.
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KartikPrabhu
Zegnat: seemed to be wroking for me as of last week
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Zegnat
Worked for me as of yesterday, KartikPrabhu
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Zegnat
But coming home to 0 new videos is a bit of a tell that something has gone wrong
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Zegnat
I follow 62 YouTube feeds, some of those are on a minimum 2-video-a-day schedule.
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KartikPrabhu
you could check if they have new videos on their channel that didn't show up in your feed
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KartikPrabhu
that should settle it
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Zegnat
Oh, they have.
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Zegnat
So I am trying to track down what they did, or if its my reader.
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techlifeweb
If any Known (withknown) users have comments on this I'd be interested: http://stream.techlifeweb.com/2017/indieweb-what-is-the-best-wet-to-favorite-a-tweet
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Loqi
[Scott Kingery] #indieweb what is the best way to favorite a Tweet in Known?
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Zegnat
tantek, YouTube feeds are now documented on the wiki.
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Loqi
ok, I added "https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2017/02/06/whats-in-an-amp-url/amp/" to the "See Also" section of /Accelerated Mobile Pages
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KevinMarks
hm, no preview for the amp version. Does this one show a preview? https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2017/02/06/whats-in-an-amp-url/
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aaronpk
i wonder if they launched with the new rel value like they were discussing
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KevinMarks_
Just canonical in the amp page, and canonical and bookmark in the wp page
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KevinMarks_
The post says canonical too
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KevinMarks_
I suspect sharelink would be an extension for tracking purposes like the utm_blah stuff
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tantek
so it's not really necessary
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Loqi
sharelink formats
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@cramforce
@kevinmarks still discussing with various parties. In any case we'd always fallback to canonical, so we can add sharelink transparently.
(twitter.com/_/status/828707252873818112)
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tantek
"various parties" (citation?)
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tantek
best wet?
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tantek
wonders if Known added that feature for editing slugs
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