#indieweb 2017-02-17

2017-02-17 UTC
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@sdepolo Elgin Kim just literally dreamt up #indieweb asking @alowahkee: can @GoDaddy solve the challenge of web fragmentati… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/832383709709955072 (twitter.com/_/status/832383709709955072)
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[dgold] snarfed sorry, I thought that was you.
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KevinMarks Kylewm is silo.pub, though I think it uses some of snarfed's login stuff
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Loqi KevinMarks: tantek left you a message 1 day, 3 hours ago: HWC SF next week? Are you able to host? https://indieweb.org/events/2017-02-22-homebrew-website-club#Where
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Loqi KevinMarks: chrisaldrich left you a message 1 day ago: If you have a moment to add to reasons or delineate your personal reasons, I'm sure others doing the same would appreciate your thoughts/feedback: https://indieweb.org/multi-site_indieweb
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-02-17.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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@niels_k Brid.gy looks neat but somehow if it is working or if it should work with my old posts… #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/832446586189991936)
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@cswordpress @niels_k It will not automatically publish your old posts. You'll need to do that manually. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/832471262450454528)
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[kevinmarks] Christina mentions indieweb at about 35 minutes in Rocket: Rocket 110: Eff It All http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.libsyn.com/rocketrelay/rocket110.mp3 [00:00:00]
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GWG Morning all
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petermolnar hey
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GWG Anything going on Indieweb like?
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jeremycherfas Hard to say; very quiewt here.
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petermolnar https://levels.io/icann-mafia/ - this, unfortunately, can effect indieweb in a really bad way
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Loqi ICANN has taken my site hostage for 2 days now
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petermolnar careful with your domains
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GWG I have been working on opengraph, regrettably.
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GWG Refactoring and improving the code I use to generate a link preview and a reply context.
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GWG Last week, I was working on the Microformats side of it, and it now returns jf2. I figured the OGP part should return equally simplified structure.
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@sebastiangreger Event 22.2. 19:00: Homebrew Website Club Berlin #2, at Salon Schmück (Kreuzberg, U1 Schlesisches Tor) http://sebastiangreger.net/2017/02/homebrew-website-club-berlin-2017-02-22/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/832598712262201344)
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@wanda_lotus I have tried IndieWeb, but I can’t get that to work either. (twitter.com/_/status/832640179890327552)
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aaronpk ?
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aaronpk ah... https://twitter.com/wanda_lotus/status/832639926311206912
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@wanda_lotus The @wordpress OpenID plugin no longer works with my site. I’m having a hell of a time finding an easy way to use my WP domain as an OpenID. (twitter.com/_/status/832639926311206912)
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@aaronpk @wanda_lotus I use https://indieauth.com for the few sites left that consume OpenID. Setup instructions: https://indieweb.org/indieauth.com#OpenID (twitter.com/_/status/832641212574101504)
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@aaronpk @wanda_lotus If you're having trouble setting it up, there are people in our chat who can help: https://indieweb.org/discuss (IRC/Matrix/Slack) (twitter.com/_/status/832641567420583936)
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tantek is it odd or just out of date that "@wordpress OpenID plugin" is considered "IndieWeb"?
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tantek or perhaps a more concrete question:
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dgold I've been trying with Wordpress.
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tantek do any self-hosted WordPress users here use the WordPress OpenID plugin? GWG, snarfed, chrisaldrich?
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tantek dgold - WordPress is great and has a strong community including here!
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tantek just got to stay on top of all the security updates :)
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dgold tantek: if anyone has pointers in making it look nicer, I'd be super-happy!
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dgold because it looks _so_ bad, it nearly makes me cry
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[kevinmarks] What in particular looks bad?
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snarfed i use the openid plugin, but it's always just worked for me, i've never had to debug it. looking.
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dgold [kevinmarks]: the UI chrome
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dgold [kevinmarks]: I've not used WP since (gosh) 2005 or so - I've no idea on how to make it 'sing'
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dgold I'm willing to make the effort, but right now it feels like a mountain
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miklb dgold that could be said though for any CMS, no?
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singpolyma tantek: I use the WordPress OpenID plugin
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[chrisaldrich] I think I tried WordPress OpenID ages ago, but haven't had it for several years now.
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[chrisaldrich] dgold: there are some simple settings for WordPress UI in the Settings tab, you can use something like the Menu Editor Plugin to change some of your menu UI (remove pieces/add things you use more often)
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dgold miklb: :)
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dgold this is true
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dgold thanks chris
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[chrisaldrich] dgold, the css is there to change almost anything you'd like, but maintaining that becomes a whole other issue. I'm sure there may be a few other plugins that devs use to hide UI pieces when delivering to clients to simplify things as well, but I suspect that's not what you're looking for.
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miklb granted, with WP having so many themes, it still takes work to incorporate mf2 and work around some of the inherent issues. I know when I switched to WP I struggled getting what I wanted from a presentation standpoint. Thus I have a lot of rough edges still.
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snarfed yup. most of my custom css for wordpress is just 'display: none'ing a ton of things
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miklb but for me, that's ok. Its my personal site, not a company site that needs to be polished.
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dgold no, this would be a personal site too, miklb, but there's functional and there's the Balfron Tower, you know?
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miklb I actually don't know that reference :-)
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@wanda_lotus Now I’ve figured out how to get #IndieWeb up and running on my #WordPress site, but @LiveJournal doesn’t recognize it. Still can’t log in. (twitter.com/_/status/832648547594022914)
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dgold miklb: http://s3.transloadit.com.s3.amazonaws.com/4b30ae61b7c84e42b6be045272ec3211/d1/3a4ab924c541fc487f225573823890/balfron_1.jpg
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dgold whoah - that was supposed to be shortened
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dgold https://is.gd/4e8Hi9
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@wanda_lotus #Dreamwidth isn’t recognizing my OpenID or IndieWeb id either. (twitter.com/_/status/832648984053182464)
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dgold oh, Sempress has a child theme - senpress! calhoo! calhay!
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[cleverdevil] I do think that one of the biggest mountains to climb with WordPress as a foundational IndieWeb CMS is themes.
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[cleverdevil] There are tons and tons of themes out there, but nearly none are really designed to be IndieWeb compliant.
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[cleverdevil] I'd *love* to see the next major "annual" default theme be IndieWeb compliant.
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[chrisaldrich] I've outlined a bit of the WordPress Theme problem here for those who'd like to add/modify or begin to tackle it: https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Development#Themes
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[cleverdevil] Nice, chrisaldrich.
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[cleverdevil] chrisaldrich++
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Loqi chrisaldrich has 14 karma in this channel (17 overall)
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[chrisaldrich] GWG and I had discussed starting a github repository essentially for forked versions of popular themes for people to hack/work on.
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[cleverdevil] I love that idea. Show the value to the community, and demonstrate the small amounts of changes that would be required to create a large benefit.
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miklb If it were only that easy…
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[chrisaldrich] Having even a half a dozen compatible themes seems to be one of the bigger hurdles for IndieWeb and Wordpress.
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tantek what is the WordPress OpenID plugin?
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voxpelli Same for any kind of CMS really, eg. miklb did some work on a theme for Jekyll blogs as well
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "WordPress OpenID plugin" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek ^^^ can one of you WordPress folks stub that out? especially with an IndieWeb Examples section per all the people above (singpolyma snarfed ... ) that use it?
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tantek we should at least have a page on it to help folks out like that person on Twitter when they get stuck or frustrated
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Loqi yea
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[chrisaldrich] dgold, if you haven't come across it yet, Independent Publisher is a nice little theme thats compatible as well. I think SemPress has several child themes in Github in addition to what you'd mentioned.
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dgold [chrisaldrich]: that (repo) would be a fantastic idea
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dgold [chrisaldrich]: I found the senpress on the github
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dgold I guess the problem with WP is that it delivers a useable interface so quickly, and with so little user 'strain'
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dgold but then getting it to $destination has a steep curve
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[cleverdevil] Independent Publisher looks *lovely* - https://wordpress.com/themes/independent-publisher/
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[cleverdevil] It doesn't seem to mention anything in that description about being compatible.
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voxpelli With WordPress having a built-in Rest API nowadays, aren't many running WordPress headless now? To keep a clear separation between "WordPress the CMS UI/Database" and "WordPress the Front-End"
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[cleverdevil] I wonder if creating an "IndieWeb Certified" badge would be smart?
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[cleverdevil] voxpelli: barely anyone is doing this, though it will become increasingly popular going forward.
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voxpelli [cleverdevil]: there's no such thing as being fully indieweb, you can implement different IndieWeb technologies, but never be a 100% indieweb
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[chrisaldrich] Jonathan, be careful as the .com version isn't compatible! It's a fork of the original .org theme which Automattic thought was so pretty they wanted it for their .com side. Indiependent Publisher from .org or Github is actually even prettier and more flexible. It also changes the comments section output to separate replies and traditional comments from webmentions
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voxpelli [cleverdevil]: really? all the wp-devs I'm talking to here in Sweden seems to be running almost exclusively headless nowadays
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[cleverdevil] WordPress represents something like 28% of all websites.
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[cleverdevil] The group of people that identify themselves as WP devs is a tiny fraction of that.
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[chrisaldrich] Often, there's only so much a theme can do, so certainly "Indieweb compatible" is certainly an attainable goal though.
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[cleverdevil] I think that there could be a minimum bar, though.
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voxpelli HTML represents like a 100% of all websites ;) Thinking that indieweb friendly (I would put it that way rather than "compatible") theme's may perhaps not have to be WordPress specific, but could be more general, and then just have WP-adaptions
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[chrisaldrich] IndieWebFriendly++
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Loqi indiewebfriendly has 1 karma
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[cleverdevil] voxpelli, that's true, but WordPress and its themes generate the HTML.
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[cleverdevil] I really like the "friendly" definition.
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voxpelli adapting a indieweb friendly theme to work with Jekyll, WP, headless WP etc would be useful + would also be useful as a reference for people who are creating their own themes
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[cleverdevil] It'd be good to have that defined in some way, and have a tag in the WP.org theme directory for themes that are IndieWebFriendly.
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[chrisaldrich] The tough part of WP's 28% figure is that they attain that by being tremendously backwards compatible and that simple fact in particular makes some of the microformats markup a bit tougher.
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[cleverdevil] Indeed.
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[cleverdevil] Which is why so much heavy lifting has to be done in the themes.
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voxpelli a tricky thing with microformats in themes are also that they only improve the theme when the theme is used correctly, when the theme is misused they can make the theme worse
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[chrisaldrich] Jonathan the microformats checkbox on the feature filter at https://wordpress.org/themes is about as close as it comes at the moment, but the problem there is that 99% are just mfv1 and not mfv2
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miklb what they also don't mention in that 28% is the mass networks of spam content farms…
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voxpelli has done his fair share of properly microformatting a theme, just to have another dev adapt the microformatted code for something that had totally different semantic meaning and just causing havoc
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dgold [chrisaldrich]: i'm afraid I dont understand wrt wp.com & wp.org vers of a theme
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[chrisaldrich] there aren't enough CSS books that discuss the fact that microformats are semantic mark up and shouldn't really be used as hooks for themeing or JS
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miklb dgold wp.com is the hosted service and themes adapted for it can only be used there. wp.org is for self hosted sites, so themes listed there can be used on any WP install
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miklb any WP install that isn't wp.com :-P
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voxpelli as people are generally more geared towards hacking wordpress themes it could make sense in that regard to try to keep mf2 markup in plugins so that people who want to hack their presentation doesn't break their semantics
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voxpelli if one wants to make indieweb more approachable to people who are not really that into microformatness yet – but inserting markup through plugins can be fairly hard I guess
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[cleverdevil] I don't know enough of the intimate details to know if that's workable or not.
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[cleverdevil] When we roll out out Micro.blog-compatible WordPress setup, we'll likely do so with a set of bundled themes and plugins that make sense in this regard, so I'll have to figure it out sooner rather than later ?
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miklb GWG can explain it better, but one of the big problems is WP still uses hentry in the core code which messes things up for m2, if I'm remembering correctly.
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[chrisaldrich] pfefferle's uf2 plugin does a pretty good job of injecting microformats as a plugin, but there's only so much it can do and for themes whose CSS can rely on themeing on hentry (Twenty Fourteen does this) things can go very wrong very quickly.
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[kevinmarks] That is true, though that hentry does mean we have some degree of microformats everywhere.
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[chrisaldrich] perhaps the workaround for that is relying on h-entry for mf2? Most parsers will rely on that first and use the second as a back up right?
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[chrisaldrich] Jonathan, if you're free for coffee, I can walk you through most of the hairy details as well as some of the potential pitfalls, both on the theme and plugin sides.
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voxpelli [chrisaldrich]: the parsing spec defines how to handle backcompat: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parse_an_element_for_class_microformats siplisticly: if "h-entry" is found, disregard mf1 h-entry data for that class
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] microformats2 parsing specification
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tantek s/mf1 h-entry/mf1 hentry
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tantek precision matters when talking about parsing & backcompat
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voxpelli tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 207 karma in this channel (319 overall)
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tantek kevinmarks, yes, the "hentry... some degree of microformats everywhere" also refutes Ade's implied assertion, or shows he's unaware of the facts
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tantek that's probably worth pointing out to him
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tantek I'd say double-digit % of websites (WordPress) counts as widespread adoption :P
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voxpelli so any mf1 class with no mf2 class on it would be treated as mf1 with mf1 properties, but any with a mf2 class would be treated as a mf2 class and only include mf2 properties (although could include child mf1 classes)
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tantek voxpelli: not sure trying to summarize the details of backcompat parsing like that is helpful
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tantek because inevitably it leaves out details which can then be misinferred to lead to incorrect conclusions
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tantek better would be to ask *one* specific question about backcompat parsing at a time (rather than "?, but ?")
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voxpelli tantek: well, it means to show that it is possibly to upgrade a mf1 theme to mf2 without having to remove any classes, which means it can be a non-destructive upgrade – that seems helpful for wordpress to know
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tantek then we can answer yes or no and cite/quote the spec, or if you find a hole we can file an issue
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tantek yes, that kind of a use-case / how-to question is useful
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voxpelli and that was what [chrisaldrich] was asking and the question I answered :)
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[cleverdevil] chrisaldrich, sounds great!
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[cleverdevil] I can bring my Dir. of WP, Mike Schroder, who actually ran one of the major WP releases last year.
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tantek voxpelli: do you know if there is an actual answer? (to upgrading a particular WP theme like that)
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tantek or is this theoretically?
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[cleverdevil] Lunch on me!
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tantek asking because I think GWG has been trying
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[cleverdevil] Maybe up at the DH office, if you're game ?
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voxpelli tantek: seems like what https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-uf2 is trying to do?
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tantek cool
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voxpelli but sounded like it ran into issues with breaking the design of themes, which sounds weird: https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-02-17/1487356968580000
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Loqi [[chrisaldrich]] pfefferle's uf2 plugin does a pretty good job of injecting microformats as a plugin, but there's only so much it can do and for themes whose CSS can rely on themeing on hentry (Twenty Fourteen does this) things can go very wrong very quickly....
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voxpelli if one only adds, but not removes, then it shouldn't break a thing
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voxpelli just parsed a mf1 standard wordpress.com site and wow – a mf2 parser parses it as a pretty well, translates well to a mf2 h-feed
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[pfefferle] I am not using the plugin actively, but feel free to submit a pull request :)
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dgold pfefferle++ the SenPress theme is lovely
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Loqi pfefferle has 22 karma in this channel (25 overall)
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voxpelli added some comments to [pfefferle]'s plugin, seems like https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-uf2 could be a good approach
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[chrisaldrich] jonathan: I'm game. Let me know what works for you two in the next couple of weeks and I'll make it happen.
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pfefferle dgold thanks... if you like SenPress, you might also like SemPress and ZenPress :)
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dgold I've tried 'em all! Sen just feels nicer
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tantek voxpelli: any key things missing from that parse?
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tantek one thing I have wondered is if there is more backcompat parsing we can do for the classic hentry that is widely deployed in WordPress
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tantek e.g. other class names that are consistently used for datetimes
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tantek etc.
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tantek though this is sounding more #indieweb-dev
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gRegorLove Good morning, indieweb
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tantek sebsel, Zegnat, petermolnar last chance to add a HWC NL photo to https://indieweb.org/events/2017-02-14-homebrew-website-club#Photos !
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tantek (to get it into the newsletter for this week)
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tantek hey I thought I removed all the 2nd level backcompat h-cards on HWC
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tantek seem to have leaked into 2017-03-08 :/
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tantek yup I fixed them all in https://indieweb.org/events/2017-02-08-homebrew-website-club
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tantek hey gRegorLove could you clone the default/commented out locations from https://indieweb.org/events/2017-02-08-homebrew-website-club to https://indieweb.org/events/2017-03-08-homebrew-website-club and perhaps the cover photo too? the other one is old now, and the 2017-02-08 featured photo is both recent and more reflective of current/recent participants
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tantek thanks!
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Loqi [indieweb] "Just did my first #twitter 'like' from my own website! The future is here, and it is *fantastic*. #indieweb" by Daniel Goldsmith on 2017-02-09 https://headcrash.ascraeus.org/2017/just-did-my-first-twitter-like-from-my-own-website
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tantek dgold++
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Loqi dgold has 3 karma
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GWG I really wish the good WordPress conversations were always when I was around
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pfefferle GWG :)
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GWG pfefferle, I have been thinking about you
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pfefferle GWG :)
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GWG What would you think of the idea of an API endpoint for parsing Microformats into jf2?
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GWG Both Semantic Linkbacks and Post Kinds have an interest in cleanly processed microformats, so why not share?
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voxpelli in regards to that: sounds like some promising feedback on https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/32653#comment:5 GWG, right? :)
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GWG voxpelli, yes. I talked to him when he was working on oEmbed improvements and tried to get interest then. I am building something now in Post Kinds that is proof of concept in design.
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GWG Which is why I am knee deep in OGP
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GWG Trying to figure out who is using OGP for what is a pain.
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GWG Everyone seems to want their own namespace.
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voxpelli I started using OG-tags at Bloglovin when I worked there, a pain point is that Facebook doesn't use the OG-tags directly, but rather derive data from them by applying some post-processing, like checking if the size of the images are big enough :/
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voxpelli So turns out that there's many sites with OG-images that are smaller than what Facebook shows and thus their users are surprised when you start using them (Hi Blogger!)
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GWG voxpelli, I am trying to process them into something like jf2... simple object that can be used when there are no Microformats
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GWG I had just been working on my Microformats stuff outputting jf2
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GWG Because I like simple
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voxpelli sounds like a good idea, if you want some inspiration then I've seen eg. this project that does that: https://github.com/hueniverse/metaphor
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pfefferle GWG hmmm... I like the sharing idea, but it also brings a lot of problems... Sharing means dependencies, and WordPress is not very good with that...
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GWG pfefferle, let me build something and we'll see
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pfefferle GWG to the API... I think it is a nice idea for a standalone plugin, but I would prefer using a lib directly instead of calling it via a http call...
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GWG pfefferle, I figured both work. I want the endpoint because I call the parser from the admin using AJAX
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pfefferle GWG in that case it really makes sense
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GWG pfefferle, stay tuned. It's part of my latest project and I have a three day weekend
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voxpelli (turns out there may exist some library that does this already for PHP: https://github.com/oscarotero/Embed )
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-02-17.html
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pfefferle voxpelli there are a lot of similar libs around
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dgold GWG - oh, I have a wordpress question - of that's okay
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dgold I have posts with no title. these have been automatcally detected by post-kinds as 'notes'
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dgold now there's no content showing
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dgold if I change them to post-kind `article`, the content comes back - but I can't find a way to bulk-change them
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snarfed wow. admirable approach and motivation for backfeed: https://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/helping-you-see-outside-your-bubble
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GWG dgold, turn off theme compatibility in the Post Kinds settings
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GWG So many people hate that feature I am removing/redesigning it in the future.
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dgold done, thank you
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GWG dgold, I designed it for people who can't edit their theme to change appearance, but...more people complained or got confused.
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-02-17.html
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dgold so open source bridge isn't a card game?
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tantek what is bridge?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bridge" yet. Would you like to create it?_
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tantek what is bridgy?
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Loqi Bridgy is an open source project and proxy that implements backfeed and POSSE as a service https://indieweb.org/bridgy
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tantek ^^^ bridgy is an open source bridge
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tantek :D
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snarfed is tempted to change that dfn to "it doesn't suck"
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snarfed er, *usually* doesn't suck
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tantek *nearly never* ;)
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snarfed aww thanks
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snarfed oh hey btw tantek i'm looking fwd to your first possed quote tweet!
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tantek yeah!
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miklb snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 253 karma in this channel (257 overall)
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tantek congrats on getting that working!
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miklb quote tweets in WP are great
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tantek really? how are they displayed? permalink example?
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miklb currently this is what I'm doing, I haven't done any specific styling https://miklb.com/1062-2/
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Loqi [miklb] If I was in charge of a media org, I would skip the campaign rally on Saturday. Complete blackout of a political event.
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miklb https://twitter.com/miklb/status/832733662265298944 is the tweet
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@miklb If I was in charge of a media org, I would skip the campaign rally on Saturday. Complete… https://miklb.com/?p=1062 QT [@realDonaldTrump] The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People! (twitter.com/_/status/832733662265298944)
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miklb oops, should have picked a different subject to demo. Sorry
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tantek lolwut
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miklb also, didn't realize Loqi showed the quoted tweets now
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tantek snarfed, I think I got stuck on authoring "UI"
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snarfed commiserates
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snarfed consider skipping it to start? manually author markup until it hurts?
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tantek snarfed, yes that's what I meant, figuring out minimal authoring markup convention (e.g. using <blockquote>?), hence "UI" in quotes ?
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snarfed ah ok
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gRegorLove tantek: I used blockquote: https://gregorlove.com/2017/01/i-joined-the-aclu-today/
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] I joined the ACLU today and encourage you to donate. Send @sacca your receipt; he is matching up to $75K. We filed suit against @RealDonaldTrump's #MuslimBan ACLU and Other Groups Challenge Trump Immigration Ban After Refugees Detained at Airpor...
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gRegorLove I should try again now that bridgy has some fixes for QT
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KevinMarks tantek: https://github.com/kevinmarks/mf2py/commit/9c7ba2c051292b5dbce2a6e9378fcec46e20a94d
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Loqi +1
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KevinMarks that was re http://indieweb.org/irc/2017-02-17/line/1487359300519
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Loqi [tantek] one thing I have wondered is if there is more backcompat parsing we can do for the classic hentry that is widely deployed in WordPress
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KevinMarks I should look at the hentry too
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tantek I suppose I meant the permalinks yeah
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tantek but the experience on home page / feed is also useful
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Loqi agreed.
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KevinMarks tom talked about abstracting the backcompat mapping structure in mf2py so you could vary it by site for other kinds of scrping
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KevinMarks like I did for the BBC recipe pages
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Loqi [indieweb] "Liked ♝ Michael Bishop ♝'s #indieweb tweet" by Daniel Goldsmith on 2017-02-17 https://headcrash.ascraeus.org/2017/liked-michael-bishop-s-indieweb-tweet-7f7c857fed
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KevinMarks mapping here: https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/blob/master/mf2py/backcompat.py
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dgold oh, known's 'like' of a twitter tweet doesn't link to the tweet.
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KevinMarks I added the bbc stuff like this https://github.com/kevinmarks/unmung/blob/master/mf2py/backcompat.py#L97
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KevinMarks (which was way easier than parsing their schema would have been)
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tantek dgold how is that possible? it has to for it to be a proper u-like-of
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dgold tantek: because its not saving it as a u-like-of; its saving it with p-bookmark
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tantek then it's a /bookmark post, not a /like
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tantek that's very odd, that sounds like a misconfiguration of some sort. possibly a missing plugin or config of one?
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dgold yeah - looking at that atm
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dgold I think its a conflict between kylewm's reactions and latest dev of known
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