#indieweb 2017-03-06

2017-03-06 UTC
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[dgold] My brain is hurty looking at some of the discussions about licencing the indieweb github repos
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KevinMarks_ Where are these discussions?
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aaronpk Zegnat consolidated them here https://github.com/indieweb/wiki/issues/39
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aaronpk there are also a bunch of open issues on various individual repos
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aaronpk Zegnat++ for that amazing summary
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Loqi zegnat has 34 karma in this channel (38 overall)
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[dgold] I love the declaration that eg .design & .au "don't allow" public domain
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[dgold] .de
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[dgold] The issue in Germany was regarding cc-by-nc and the definition of "commercial", nothing whatsoever to do with cc0/PD
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aaronpk where do you see that?
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[dgold] IAAL&IANYL
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[dgold] Linked article by zegnat
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aaronpk oh on stackexchange?
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[dgold] http://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/a/147120
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[dgold] Yeah, that comment is completely incorrect
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aaronpk do you have a better citation? add to the github thread
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[dgold] Will do
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[dgold] It's not a better citation, it's reading and understanding the actual judgement referred to
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[dgold] Glynn Moody writes an article about a German court having questions about the meaning of non commercial, a sub editor at techdirt puts "Germany finds cc-by-nc not enforceable" , next thing half the Devs in the world are screaming that Germany doesn't allow pd
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[dgold] So sick & tired of it
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sknebel [dgold]: where did you see a reference to that case on that page? (maybe I just missed it, am tired)
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[dgold] Oh, and someone looking for APSL stuff to be relicenced because his project has gone with *LGPL*
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sknebel (FWIW, my law lecturers also warned against just claiming PD if you are from Germany
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aaronpk luckily dual licensing is easy
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KevinMarks_ Is owfa no longer useful? Or was the contributing agreement the main win?
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@100daysindieweb Day 75: Improvements to the Webmention Wiki Page #100DaysOfIndieWeb: https://aaronparecki.com/2017/03/05/21/day-75-webmention (twitter.com/_/status/838603607914110976)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Day 75: Improvements to the Webmention Wiki Page #100DaysOfIndieWeb" on 2017-03-06
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aaronpk whoa that superfeedr ping was very fast
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Day 75: Improvements to the Webmention Wiki Page #100DaysOfIndieWeb" https://aaronparecki.com/2017/03/05/21/day-75-webmention
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tantek good evening #indieweb
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GWG Good evening, tantek
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[dgold] @sknebel; yes, but cc0 is public-domain with fallback position, it's not a mere surrender of rights
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sknebel right, cc0 should be fine
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[dgold] As in: by using cc0, you've effectively dual-licenced a creative work already
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[dgold] By the by, I don't disagree with zegnats desired outcome; MIT or BSD would be the choices with the greatest potential for maximisation of adoption of the libraries
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Loqi [indieweb] "There is no front-end web development crisis" by Mike Sugarbaker on 2016-06-22 http://gibberish.com/archives/2016/06/22/there-is-no-front-end-web-development-crisis/
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petermolnar are there any guides on how to license if you're using multiple libraries with different licences?
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petermolnar I've just checked the libs I'm using (https://github.com/briandailey/python-packages-license-check) and it's quite messy
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petermolnar in my case, it's probably easy: since there are GPLv3 ones, it'll be GPLv3, as that is the most restrictive afaik
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sknebel as long as everything else is GPLv3 compatible
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sknebel e.g. you can't have other, GPLv2 (strict, without the "or later" sentence), dependencies at the same time
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petermolnar hm
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sknebel https://www.dwheeler.com/essays/floss-license-slide.html
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petermolnar it may be time for me to pay more attention to which exact packages I'm using
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sknebel is the best representation I know about
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sknebel (but I haven't checked in detail if it is accurate)
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dgold FOSS licencing is a mess, frankly
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dgold plus, as Chuck Schumer says, either way this shakes out, its bad for SCROTUS
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dgold either he's lying (which is almost certainly true) or he's mistaken, and a court ordered surveillance of his campaign, which is _terrible_ for him & his presidency
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dgold either way, this is fuck all to do with Obama
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dgold oh, sorry - all of that was for a very different channel. my sincere apologies
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pfefferle good morning
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petermolnar morning pfefferle
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pfefferle good morning petermolnar
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jeremycherfas Dgold: I thought I was safe here …
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[eddie] good morning all
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jeremycherfas !tell aaronpk Any reason why ownyourgram strips hashtags from IG captions? Or is it @withknown doing the dirty?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk Hm I think that's Known
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aaronpk you can check what ownyourgram sends on the dashboard if you log in
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jeremycherfas I woulden’t be surprised. It isn’t happy with Markdown in Status posts either.
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aaronpk pretty sure it includes hashtags in the content field as written
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aaronpk especially since i sometimes use hashtags as part of the sentence so it wouldn't make sense to remove them
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jeremycherfas You’re right, it does. Sorry to bother you.
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aaronpk np
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jeremycherfas Ah. Known takes the hashtags and sticks them in the Description field.
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[eddie] Man, this weekend was crazy. I’m try to clean up my Jekyll data structure to prepare for implementing a Micropub endpoint using https://github.com/voxpelli/node-micropub-express. But when I first set up my site it was haphazardly set up and now I have 63 “photos of the day” that I have to tweak to the new data format! It’s been a ride, but I ALMOST got it finished in my spare time this weekend.
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voxpelli nice :)
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jeremycherfas Good work.
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dgold jeremycherfas: I _did_ apologise
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dgold :(
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jeremycherfas You did, and I accept that fully., I have done similar things myself.
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[eddie] Screenshot 2017-03-06 11.05.49 https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T03QR2B2T-F4ETSN0ES/screenshot_2017-03-06_11.05.49.png?pub_secret=abb1011f1d&name=Screenshot 2017-03-06 11.05.49.png
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[eddie] Woo! It’s coming together! Syndicated links and everything.
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Jeena I have someone here asking where they could upload mp3 files so they could access them via https because they use the free https://www.jimdo.com/
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Loqi Jeena: tantek left you a message on 2017-01-31 at 3:14am UTC: is there a HWC Göteborg on 2017-02-08? https://indieweb.org/events/2017-02-08-homebrew-website-club#Where
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Loqi Jeena: tantek left you a message 3 weeks, 2 days ago: will there be a HWC Göteborg 2017-02-22? https://indieweb.org/events/2017-02-22-homebrew-website-club#Where
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Loqi Jeena: tantek left you a message 2 weeks, 4 days ago: HWC Göteborg next week? https://indieweb.org/events/2017-02-22-homebrew-website-club#Where
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tantek he's alive!
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Jeena hehe
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Jeena I am but I'm super bussy
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tantek hey Jeena - shall we put HWC Göteborg on hiatus for now?
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tantek just to recognize where it is?
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tantek or do you want to try to do monthly or?
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tantek (e.g. PDX switched to monthly which seems to be working quite well)
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Jeena Yeah I think I want to try monthly
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tantek that would be great!
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Jeena I'm still supporting people via email who came to one of the HWCs
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tantek Jeena - very cool.
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tantek aaronpk, could you advise Jeena about how you explicitly transitioned PDX to monthly?
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tantek Jeena - another alternative is the occasional virtual HWC that the LA folks host - chrisaldrich has done that a few times to success
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Jeena mhm the normal ones are much nicer because you actually meet new people, but a virtual one could connect all the swedish cities ;)
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tantek Agreed!
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tantek maybe a mix?
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[kevinmarks] Archive.org will host MP3 for you if you cc them
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tantek monthly normal / in person, and then other weeks do virtual?
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tantek so you can keep the conversations going at least virtually?
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tantek Jeena, feel free to pick a good start day for the first "monthly" one
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tantek if you think that could work this week, that would be great, if not, that's ok too
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tantek just need to update https://indieweb.org/events/2017-03-08-homebrew-website-club#Where
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tantek I mean I need to update it ASAP for the Mozilla weekly meetups announcement in a couple of hours
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Jeena ah thanks [kevinmarks]
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tantek thanks in advance!
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tantek I'll check again in ~ 1 hour and provide a list accordingly
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Jeena no this week doesn't work, I guess in two weeks could be good
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tantek !tell Zegnat is HWC Netherlands on this week? Can you confirm yes or canceled on https://indieweb.org/events/2017-03-08-homebrew-website-club#Where ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek hey benwerd!
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tantek haven't heard from cdevroe so I'm assuming Scranton is cancelled this week
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benwerd waves
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 6 days, 15 hours ago: hey could you add the 2017-02-22 HWC SF photo(s) to the wiki? https://indieweb.org/events/2017-02-22-homebrew-website-club#Photos
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 3 days, 15 hours ago: could you post an indie event for HWC SF next week and POSSE to FB too? https://indieweb.org/events/2017-03-08-homebrew-website-club#Where - also totally cool (would be nice even) to do it at Matter again if you prefer! Definitely want you on the marketing team though :)
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aaronpk biweekly virtual and monthly in person could be fun
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tantek yeah!
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aaronpk so far out of 2 monthly pdx meetings we've had a much better turnout than previously
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Loqi [indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club: March 8, 2017" by Ben Werdmüller on 2017-03-06 http://werd.io/2017/homebrew-website-club-march-8-2017
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benwerd tantek: http://werd.io/2017/homebrew-website-club-march-8-2017
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club: March 8, 2017
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benwerd Is there a Fb event yet?
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tantek no
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tantek wow this sounds amazing: https://twitter.com/Bachscore/status/838399248085450752
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@Bachscore You are genius, Norway, thank you: https://www.wsj.com/articles/were-all-internet-trolls-sometimes-1488718803?mod=e2tw https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6KXq43WcAECFZ_.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/838399248085450752)
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tantek haha the image here is hilarious https://www.wsj.com/articles/were-all-internet-trolls-sometimes-1488718803
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Loqi hehe
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tantek what is a troll?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "troll" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek lol
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tantek ok then
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benwerd tantek https://www.facebook.com/events/1878686562412572/
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aaronpk that is a fantastic idea
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tantek benwerd+
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tantek benwerd++ even
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Loqi benwerd has 100 karma in this channel (125 overall)
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[keithjgrant] Omnibear 0.4.0 publishing now to chrome Web store. Adds integration on Facebook.com, & should fix aaronpk's auth issue
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jeremycherfas !tell snarfed Does huffduff-video! Bookmarket automatically use latest build?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@barryf @lildude We've got a Homebrew Website Club meeting in London this Wed and as someone hacking on IndieWeb/Micropub do you fancy joining us? (twitter.com/_/status/838791855391272960)
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snarfed jeremycherfas: there are no builds, it just uses the live service, so yes :P
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jeremycherfas Sorry, my misuse. OK. Continuing to get an error from soundcloud. Will reinvestigate.
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snarfed jeremycherfas: i see it too. thanks for the report, will look
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jeremycherfas Same error as before?
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jeremycherfas Should I file a new issue?
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snarfed jeremycherfas: i'll reopen https://github.com/snarfed/huffduff-video/issues/24 , feel free to subscribe
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jeremycherfas Will do. I added details of new error to this https://github.com/rg3/youtube-dl/issues/12376
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Zegnat tantek: I updated the wiki, cancelled upcoming HWC as I was the only available person. And I will not travel to some cafe when nobody will meet me there.
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Loqi Zegnat: tantek left you a message 33 minutes ago: is HWC Netherlands on this week? Can you confirm yes or canceled on https://indieweb.org/events/2017-03-08-homebrew-website-club#Where ?
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tantek Zegnat thank you!
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Zegnat Theoretically I could do HWC at home, but lets keep that off of the wiki ;)
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tantek appreciate the update
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tantek Zegnat or you could also try a monthly in-person and virtual the other week(s)
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Zegnat That might be an idea!
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tantek I think LA & PDX are both going that direction and maybe Göteborg
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Zegnat sebsel will take over as main organiser, as I will be migrating to Sweden next week.
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tantek ooh
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tantek Zegnat which city?
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Zegnat Åmål
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Zegnat I will definitely be poking Jeena about Göteborg when I am there again though
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tantek nice
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tantek it definitely helps to have 2+ co-organizers working together!
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petermolnar Zegnat I might be in AMS next Tue, which days are you leaving? :)
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Zegnat I am leaving on Tuesday, getting to Sweden on Wednesday.
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jeremycherfas Seems like SoundCloud may be building the silo walls higher.
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petermolnar in that case, have a pleasant journey
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[kevinmarks] What did soundcloud do?
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jeremycherfas Possibly refusing requests from Amazon EC IPs.
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snarfed1 ...which lots of services do, but also probably isn't the root cause here after all. youtube-dl probably just needs to update their client id again. see end of https://github.com/rg3/youtube-dl/issues/12376
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jeremycherfas Too keen to download that audio! I’ll try again in the morning.
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gRegorLove Good morning, indieweb
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tantek I really like aaronpk's improvements to the /Webmention page
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tantek I'm thinking of building on that work - and moving a bunch of the page to something like /Webmention-developer
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tantek like the protocol overview etc., and thus really focusing the main /Webmention page on users
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tantek thoughts?
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tantek does that separation make sense to folks here?
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tantek wonders if he should also ask in #indieweb-dev
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aaronpk interesting
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aaronpk we do have the "webmention implementation guide" page which sounds a little friendlier than "developer"
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/webmention-implementation-guide
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tantek right - that makes sense to as a focused implementation guide
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tantek by /Webmention-developer, I mean an introducing to Webmention specifically from a developer perspective
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tantek it would of course link to the implementation guide
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aaronpk ah i see
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tantek basically, /Webmention-developer is for the type of person who responds to the summary of Webmention with something like "oh that's like pingback? or trackback?" or other plumbing centric focus
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tantek or the kind of person that immediately wants to debate spam fighting
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tantek or some other such rathole
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aaronpk it does make sense to keep that stuff off of the main user-centric page
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tantek this would help the main /Webmention page show and document how Webmention is immediately useful for anyone posting content on the web
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@manton2 At the IndieWeb meetup last week I couldn’t remember how long I’ve been blogging. Coming up on the 15th anniversary of my blog this week! (twitter.com/_/status/838845274038632449)
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GWG Afternoon
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sl007 Evening
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GWG Greetings
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sl007 agreed ;)
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sl007 aaronpk - in indieauth-node to send you can choose either your local mail server or mailgun to send question…
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sl007 would it make sense to "throttle" sending - same user >1 min. or so?
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aaronpk what do you mean "You can choose"?
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aaronpk the person signing in?
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sl007 No the implementor - I'll show u soon. Btw: It was a wonderful exercise to understand auth in all its facets
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aaronpk rate limiting the emails it sends is probably a good idea
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sl007 OK. What time would you suggest? I am thinking so much (perhaps too much) about security
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sl007 and what limit on what basis
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sl007 maybe 1 mail per person per minute and 50 a day ?
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sl007 (as default setting)
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aaronpk mainly you want to make sure it's generous enough to allow enough logins for the user per day
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aaronpk one thing i've been thinking about adding to indieauth.com is cookie-ing the user after they authenticate something so that they can click through the next time they come back in the same browser, without having to respond to another challenge
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aaronpk that would let you use a much stronger rate limit
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sl007 cookie-ing : agreed will implement as well. stronger limit disagreed - when it comes to mail sending : I have just send u one but I am a different person …
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aaronpk hm true
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sl007 this is why I am thinking about the following extension : The user could publish a signed jwt along with the mail address (and sms) and before sending out any mail he has to enter his pw …
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aaronpk the cookie thing has been on my list for... 3.5 years :/ https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/31
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sl007 ;)
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aaronpk interesting idea, i'm not quite sure i understand the benefit of that
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sl007 well the benefit would be that I could not send out tons of mails to aaron from indieauth.com because I don't know aarons password he signed the jwt on his website with
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sl007 off course if indieauth.com does not find a jwt on aarons page (with specified rel or so and claims) everything would stay as it is
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sl007 this is about the difference from "direct token auth" (mailAuth / smsAuth) to OAuth …
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tantek smsauth--
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Loqi smsauth has -1 karma
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sl007 yes, smsauth— agreed
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tantek have to start with the ++ or --
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tantek rather, the word with it
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aaronpk that's interesting
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aaronpk that sounds like it's probably worth trying out
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sl007 will do so. "self assigned holidays":will work the whole week to finish it. btw: also implemented https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-bradley-oauth-jwt-encoded-state-06.pdf because state is important and what is interesting is that any authClient can "respond" to the claims (not covered by the draft)
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aaronpk yeah i might drop SMS auth from indieauth.com
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aaronpk another thought... instead of a JWT, use an encrypted token, so that I don't even have to publish my email address publicly
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aaronpk although at that point, why even bother sending an email? cause either way, if the person enters the password (encryption/signature key) correctly, they've authenticated themselves
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sl007 DROP SMS - agreed ! (intended/designed only as 2nd factor) - hm - about the first: yes I l already thought about that too - and to be true : what hindered me is that my JWT module can't do JWE yet (only JWS so far) - it is universal JS for node and browse … (1/2)
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sl007 and it is a bit complicated to write universal for the browser as well - about 2nd: Personally I'd like to have it as (possible) 2nd factor. For 2 reasons :
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@barryf @lildude https://indieweb.org/next-hwc It’s usually fortnightly. Would be great to compare notes on Ruby/Micropub. Enjoy N.O.! (twitter.com/_/status/838861274758905856)
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sl007 1) It is the same flow than in other IndieAuth methods - check rel me's on homepage (and save a possible token), then do the challenge and get authed - 2) feels more secure
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sl007 the MailAuth flow brings you integrity state protection + rfp protection + one time (!) and short living (!) mail token to exchange for the "IndieAuthSuccessToken"
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aaronpk interesting though that the SMS code and email code are essentially equivalent. SMS being a second factor is well understood, but plenty of sites use an email code as a single factor authentication despite them being basically equivalent.
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sl007 maybe - but email has other advantages for us - it does not use a SILO (twilio) inbetween just because thousands of mobile providers cook own soups [https://github.com/typpo/textbelt#notes-and-limitations] and SMS would be more expensive
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aaronpk there are definite advantages to email sure
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aaronpk it's still just a single factor
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aaronpk adding a password to decrypt or verify the JWT turns it into two factor tho, so that's good
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aaronpk SMS << https://www.wired.com/2016/06/hey-stop-using-texts-two-factor-authentication/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.wired.com/2016/06/hey-stop-using-texts-two-factor-authentication/" to the "See Also" section of /messaging
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sl007 yes, exactly - need to leave unfriendly physical host soon (brothers working for AppleCare have to sleep) but BBS
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aaronpk oh, one major benefit of using the combined JWT/JWE + email code is that you don't have to be too concerned if your encryption password is leaked, because the worst that happens is people can spam you with auth challenges
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aaronpk vs JWT/JWE only, where if your password leaks then anyone can sign in as you
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aaronpk we should not be training people to enter any sort of secret on arbitrary sites, so I'm also more inclined to support this method only when the user decides to establish a trusted relationship with indieauth.com (e.g. they've delegated their domain to use indieauth.com as their authorization endpoint)
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@TerminalPixel Day 63 of #100DaysOfCode: I made a basic #JavaScript micropub helper https://github.com/terminalpixel/micropub #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/838875173306658816)
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tantek ooh
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[terminalpixel] Would love some help with https://github.com/terminalpixel/micropub/ Might be useful for anyone building micropub clients in node
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@EddieHinkle It seems like none of the TV Show/Movie DBs allow you to search by show URL, this really should be a thing. Ids die, Urls remain. #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/838877684306427907)
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KartikPrabhu do TV shows/Movies have a canonical URL?
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[eddie] Most do, and you can find them in IMDB, but you can’t search by them. They aren’t foolproof, but I would trust using "http://www.usanetwork.com/suits” than tt1632701
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[eddie] But it seems like i’ll have to do both
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[eddie] Because everything supports IMDB and nothing supports URL querying
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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[eddie] It’s not as good as say an ISBN for a book, but so far in my brainstorming that’s what I’ve come up with
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[eddie] Definitely interested in anyone else has thought this through
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snarfed i actually trust imdb's ids to last much longer than individual networks' URL schemes
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snarfed (yes it's a silo, but fwiw)
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snarfed looking at my own precedent, i generally use imdb links on https://snarfed.org/movies and networks' show URLs on https://snarfed.org/tv . ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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tantek snarfed, because Amazon?
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tantek (trust to last longer)
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snarfed tantek: amazon?
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] film reel Movies I’ve watched and want to watch. I liked, were just ok, I didn’t like, I didn’t finish. Naturally, this isn’t comprehensive, and it’s biased toward my taste. If I mark a movie , I may still think it’s good overall,...
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tantek they own IMDB right?
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snarfed oh does amazon own imdb? didn't know.
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tantek what is IMDB
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IMDB" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek wat
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snarfed tantek: nah, more that i expect tv networks to change URL schemes more often and not care about preserving permalinks
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tantek true
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[eddie] that’s true snarfed. I didn’t think about network fickleness ?
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tantek snarfed, though what's funnier (sorta) are the URLs *mentioned* in various tv shows, especially like 10 years ago
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tantek because they typically eventually all end up redirecting to the TV show's URL
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tantek snarfed, yes, amazon: "operated by IMDb.com, Inc., a subsidiary of Amazon.com." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMDb
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tantek 1998 purchase!
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tantek oh hey how about http://www.omdb.org/
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tantek eddie, KartikPrabhu ^^^
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[eddie] Looks good, it just doesn’t appear to have an API ?
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[dgold] Well, there's the tvdb
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[dgold] http://thetvdb.com/
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[dgold] Has an api and all
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[dgold] http://thetvdb.com/wiki/index.php?title=Programmers_API
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__number5__ there are https://www.themoviedb.org/documentation/api too
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tantek eddie, what are you looking for in terms of an API?
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[eddie] Awesome. Yeah, it seems like there are a lot of them across the web. This too: https://www.themoviedb.org/about
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tantek I mean, Suits: http://www.omdb.org/movie/55011-suits
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[eddie] I’m hoping to be able to search for a TV show or movie by name, or by an id
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[eddie] it seems like most open databases contain their own ID and support IMDB as an external ID
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[eddie] So it seems like IMDB has become the de facto standard id, so even if IMDB died, it would probably be possible to transition the IDs in storage to one of the other database systems ID
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[eddie] tantek: The goal is to be able to eventually automate the steps it takes for me to checkin when I watch a show. Right now I use an app that uses Trakt.tv to store what I have watched. So i’m hoping to export those into my site when ready and start using my site to checkin when I watch a show/movie
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[eddie] Basically I’m working through how to do “Interested, In Progress, Completed (with optional Review)” stages for reading, watching and listening. I’ve already started basic groundwork on reading (for both books and websites), now I’m thinking through watching for TV shows, Movies, and of course Web Video (YouTube, Personal Video, etc)
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__number5__ [eddie]: you can find more via Plex open sources agents projects https://github.com/plexinc-agents
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[eddie] Ohhh, that’s an interesting find! Thanks
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