#indieweb 2017-03-07

2017-03-07 UTC
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GWG Good evening
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GWG I was thinking about webmentions and fragmentions.
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KartikPrabhu what about them?
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GWG Well, how do you validate a fragmention if received as part of a webmention?
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GWG More important, should you?
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aaronpk https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#request-verification-p-4
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snarfed answeringquestionswithurls++
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Loqi answeringquestionswithurls has 1 karma
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KartikPrabhu I do not "validate" fragmention
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KartikPrabhu if it isn't "valid" or does not exist in the post it simply isn't treated as marginalia and shows up at the bottom
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aaronpk that is consistent with the spec
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KartikPrabhu ok cool :)
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GWG Yes. So I'd need to model that.
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KartikPrabhu that was the safest default I could think of
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KartikPrabhu there isn't much to model
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GWG Well, in WordPress, there is no support for marginalia specifically.
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GWG I'd rather do it on the backend then the frontend.
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KartikPrabhu which is why I made a JS :P
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KartikPrabhu my backend does not do any marginalia stuff either
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GWG I'd want my backend to
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KartikPrabhu why?
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KartikPrabhu marginalia is about the UI/UX
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KartikPrabhu the UI needs JS anyway so there is no harm in marginalia using things only on the frontend
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KartikPrabhu for parsers the u-in-reply-to exposes the fragmention
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GWG I just want it to verify that it is a valid fragmention and note that it is classified differently.
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KartikPrabhu there is no need to verify, simply store the received fragmention and use that to claasify it how ever you'd like
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KartikPrabhu also, "valid" fragmentions can change when the post is edited so "Validation" isn't very useful
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GWG Store the fragmention or the fragment?
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KartikPrabhu either if you want to accept fragments
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Day 76: Client Tests for Micropub.rocks! #100DaysOfIndieWeb" https://aaronparecki.com/2017/03/06/14/day-76-micropub-rocks-client-tests
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@100daysindieweb Day 76: Client Tests for http://Micropub.rocks! #100DaysOfIndieWeb: https://aaronparecki.com/2017/03/06/14/day-76-micropub-rocks-client-tests (twitter.com/_/status/838914568785014785)
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GWG I'm just worried that it will get filtered out.
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KartikPrabhu by whom?
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GWG Well, I'm worried about how the built-in WordPress functions handle URL fragments. I have to do some reading/tests.
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GWG Two, I'm worried that the way the code will not be able to distinguish, and in the event there are two links to different fragmentions in the same URL, that it will decide they are the same webmention
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KartikPrabhu you can store the fragmention in the URL itself
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KartikPrabhu only use it while processing the reply
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GWG I just want to make sure that the code supports that and doesn't need any changes.
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GWG I've never sent or received one.
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KartikPrabhu just try it out
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KartikPrabhu "ask forgiveness not permission"
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GWG It is one of five webmention issues I want to tackle this week with PRs to pfefferle.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I'm going to try some unit tests.
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KevinMarks1 mention-tech shows fragmentions as quotes, but doesn't check for the fragment being in the target
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GWG KevinMarks1 Part of me feels it should.
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GWG Okay.
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GWG I just ran a test.
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GWG It stripped the fragment
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@brianjesse following 27 people on the web, @reederapp on my iphone, i'm using @feedbin by @bsaid their iOS app too is pretty slick, trying it #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/838992476518166528)
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Loqi [indieweb] "#100DoPP d46: micropub.rocks now has both server & client tests for the #indieweb/@W3C Micropub protocol!" on 2017-03-07 http://tantek.com/2017/065/t2/micropub-rocks-server-client-tests
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@t #100DoPP d46: https://micropub.rocks/ now has both server & client tests for the #indieweb/@W3C Micropub protocol! (ttk.me t4nB2) (twitter.com/_/status/839022160303779843)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Why we built Known" by Ben Werdmuller on 2015-12-08 http://stream.withknown.com/2015/why-we-built-known
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Loqi [indieweb] "A short note about web standards from your friends at Known" by Ben Werdmuller on 2015-10-13 http://stream.withknown.com/2015/a-short-note-about-web-standards-from-your-friends-at
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Loqi [indieweb] "Self-hosted Known 0.8.5 has left the building - with better indieweb, micropub and AMP support." by Ben Werdmuller on 2015-10-13 http://stream.withknown.com/2015/self-hosted-known-085-has-left-the-building---with-better
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@krautsource I just registered for IndieWebCamp Nuremberg 2017 - war 2016 ein toller Event! #empfehlung https://ti.to/tollwerk/indiewebcamp-nuremberg-2017 (twitter.com/_/status/839114725308919808)
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[keithjgrant] Does anybody do MicroPub edits in the wild? I would love to add editing to Omnibear, but it didn't look like many endpoints support it yet
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[keithjgrant] Right-click your post -> edit -> ? -> PROFIT!
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aaronpk [keithjgrant] there's definitely less server support for editing than creating. Check out the implementation reports for the list. Mine is one!
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sebsel I do edit too, but the code is too bad to write an implementation report about it.
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aaronpk sebsel: lol! that's not how that works! your codedoesn't have to be *good* it just has to work
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aaronpk also wow, 6 out of 8 of the servers we have reports for support editing
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[keithjgrant] Wow
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[keithjgrant] So I presume it (from client perspective) involves fetching the content from the server for editing, then posting the update
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk the client can request one or more specific properties, or ask for everything in the post
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[keithjgrant] My client will have access to the published page... But that will be the final HTML, probably not formatted correctly for editing
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aaronpk yeah that's generally the case
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aaronpk internally my posts are stored in either plaintext, markdown, or HTML, and they all get rendered as HTML. so my plaintext posts will have added HTML tags in the final result that aren't in the source document that I edit
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@kevinmarks The Atlantic's ads making @ibogost's point for him https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/02/the-singularity-in-the-toilet-stall/517551/ #indieweb https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/839127246170275840/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/839127246170275840)
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sebsel but the source query should return mf2-json, right?
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aaronpk correct, which can have either text or HTML content
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sebsel (I don't have the source query yet, only sending the JSON with the 'update' action... which I use to add Syndication-links after POSSEing)
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aaronpk yeah that's another super useful kind of edit :)
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aaronpk and i'm glad that you're able to implement just that aspect of the spec and still get use out of it
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sebsel for a note, it's just text or HTML, but a reply has an extra field already... it's hard to reconstruct that original mf2 object
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sebsel yeah! that's really neat.
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aaronpk why is it hard to construct an mf2 object that has a reply field?
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sebsel hm, looked through my posts' .txt-files and it seems doable actually.
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sebsel I think it has to do with what GWG calls 'keeping everyone happy'.
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sebsel I want my Micropub plugin to be re-usable by other Kirby sites.
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sebsel But I guess I just have to go for my own needs first.
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voxpelli doesn't support editing, but to support overwriting an existing post with a new one – so editing without really editing
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voxpelli s/to/do/
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@derhess Reminder: Homebrew #Website Club #3 in #Berlin tomorrow! Come over and let's talk about #indieweb https://sebastiangreger.net/2017/03/homebrew-website-club-berlin-2017-03-08/ #webdev #Webdesign (twitter.com/_/status/839137793360203776)
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@LukasRosenstock Reminder: Excessive copyright could hurt the #OpenWeb / #IndieWeb, that's why you should care to #SaveTheLink: https://savethelink.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/839144423309062144)
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petermolnar wat?
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petermolnar https://savethelink.org/ - is this actually true?
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aaronpk i heard of that a while ago, haven't been keeping up on it
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petermolnar (stupidly annoying site design by the way)
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jeremycherfas Wiothout following the links it is very hard to know what they are talking about. Blocking links is hardly the same as censoring links.
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aaronpk what i heard was that a publisher could send a C&D to you if you link to their site
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jeremycherfas Suits me. Why would I want to send someone to a publisher like that?
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aaronpk lol!
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jeremycherfas Only partially facetious. Those sites that, when you copy something from a page add a link that I then have to get rid of to use in a blockquote … Often I’ll just give up as not worth it. Let them find their own readers.
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Zegnat That site is definitely a bit low on factual information. And it sometimes uses the word “link” to mean domain name, and sometimes to mean what we mean by link? Terribly confusing without reading all the news articles they link. Even then some of those articles are over 2 years old and describe ongoing legal disputes, so they might have been conclu
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Zegnat ded yet conclusions aren’t linked to...
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jeremycherfas Call me cynical, but it smells fishy to me.
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petermolnar there were discussions in the EU on links, and - I'm not certain though - one of the outcomes was that to link to illegal content is also illegal
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petermolnar searching for facts
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petermolnar ah
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petermolnar https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/08/europes-top-court-rules-linking-can-infringe-copyright-if-done-for-profit/
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petermolnar IF done for profit
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petermolnar which kinda makes sense
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petermolnar essentially this is to get rid of warez
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jeremycherfas And that is something I could support. But that’s a very circumscribed case.
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sknebel germany has legal battles about quotes from websites right now, which is annoying, spain has similar laws. actual lawsuits mostly around google news
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jeremycherfas Fair use has always been a very sketchy doctrine.
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sknebel in germany representatives of newspapers right now try to argue that quoting 7 words from a linked article should require you to pay the site owner
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jeremycherfas Why 7?
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sknebel 7 was explicitly named as "too much"
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sknebel probably because somebody before that suggested 7
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jeremycherfas So fishy. No logic at all. 7 words from a 100 word article is not the same as 7 words from a 1000 word article.
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tantek or a tweet
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jeremycherfas Well, I wouldn’t expect a publisher to pursue payment for a retweet.
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sknebel I assume with tweets there is some language in the EULA as well, but yeah, it is stupid, and I bet quite a few sources just don't refer to newspapers anymore, unless they explicitly allow it
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aaronpk sounds like a great way to make sure newspapers continue to stay in business...
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jeremycherfas Heh.
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sknebel yeah
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sknebel it's a tailor-made law to annoy google news basically
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jeremycherfas And no guarantees that it w0n’t also be used to sweep up innocent bystanders.
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sknebel yep (e.g. is a blogger a news aggregator? when do they start to become "commercial"? ...)
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jeremycherfas A solution in search of a problem, if you ask me.
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sknebel oh, the problem is quite clear: people look at google news and google makes money off that. the solution just isn't great, and it is debateable if the problem should be viewed as such on a society level
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Zegnat What about news websites that keep writing things like “it was reported by …” and then not link at all? Can we have a law to sue those?
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sknebel heh
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jeremycherfas I don’t use Google News, so maybe this is rubbish, but if I have an ad-blocker, and am not logged in, and I don’t see any ads, and Google can’t track me, so it is not making money, then what?
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sknebel I mean, the contortions with articles from WSJ that only work if accessed via facebook are strange as well
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jeremycherfas Again, I seldom follow a link from FB, so I don’t know, but if WSJ gives me 10 free article a month, or whatever, I’ll take them. And I want more, I’ll pay. But it is too difficult to pay for a single article these days.
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jeremycherfas I miss the original vision of Flattr.
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Loqi misses the original vision of Flattr too
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jeremycherfas Thanks Loqi. It’s good to know I’m not alone.
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Loqi you're welcome
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sknebel Blendle isn't bad as "pay per article"
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sknebel yeah, flattr just died down I assume? (I still see the buttons occasionally)
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jeremycherfas Didn’t know about Blendle. Have signed up for the beta.
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jeremycherfas Flattr has been trying to pivot for about a year, without any obvious signs of success.
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sknebel oh, they work with adblock plus now, didn't know that
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voxpelli worked at Flattr
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jeremycherfas They got rid of one of their best features, in my opinion, which was that you could Flattr someone even if they weren’t a member. Which created an incentive for them to become a member, to collect what they had earned. To me, that was a great idea for boosting uptake and taking advantage of network effects. And I have never seen a cogent explanation of why they ditched it.
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jeremycherfas Voxpelli: Really? Do you have any insights into why they chose to go the way they did?
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voxpelli yeah that was a great feature, some of us even worked with how we could use microformats to make it possible to promise flattrs for even non-silo creators that hadn't signed up
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jeremycherfas It was such a clever idea.
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voxpelli jeremycherfas: well, the team needed to scale down to survive long term once most of the venture capital had been used and after that I have no insight into what happened
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jeremycherfas I understand.
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martymcguire[m] haha, wait, voxpelli, were you at the Flattr panel at SXSW in ~2011?
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Loqi nice
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martymcguire[m] I was the Thingiverse person on the panel. we had just launched Flattr support and it worked well for a while.
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martymcguire[m] ah, ok. found an archive of the panel description: https://austin2011.sched.com/event/2l8S/flattr-wthingiverse-readability-demotix-rewarding-creators-and-crowdfunding
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martymcguire[m] looks like we didn't meet that day. still, small world!
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voxpelli martymcguire[m]: I wasn't at the SXSW-event, but I very much remember the Thingiverse-integration, really liked that one :)
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tantek That was the second to last year I was at SXSW
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martymcguire[m] i was pretty proud of having Flattr support on Thingiverse. it was one of those things that made me feel like i was building part of a better future. :}
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tantek martymcquire do you remember what building/hotel that session was in? I don't remember if I saw it.
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tantek martymcguire
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Zegnat petermolnar, thank you for reviewing the licence issue on GitHub. I have responded to your link :)
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martymcguire[m] that is a good question. i don't personally remember but the link above thinks it was at the Radisson (111 East Cesar Chavez St ), in the Town Lake Ballroom
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martymcguire[m] and that sounds reasonable to me
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Zegnat I was discussing Flattr with sebsel last we met, I wanted to show him some micropayment stuff. But their current website is such a landing-page-buzz-word-sign-up-please mess that I couldn’t really show anything :(
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GWG Afternoon
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aaronpk already?
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GWG aaronpk, GWG Greetings protocol. I usually appear three times a day. The first is morning, second afternoon, third evening. If I appear multiple times other than that, I will just greet people
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GWG I could add this to the wiki
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bear I may start using "daystart" and "dayend"
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bear or Good Start|End
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GWG bear, dt-start?
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bear :)
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sknebel good now
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GWG File your greetings in mf2
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GWG What is greeting?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "greeting" yet. Would you like to create it?
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GWG I thought we had that
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aaronpk what is UGT?
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Loqi Universal Greeting Time is the convention of greeting people in online chat with "good morning" regardless of the local time of day of either person https://indieweb.org/UGT
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GWG Should that be linked to greeting?
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tantek more like IRC
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tantek I'd expect a "greeting" page to describe what that means on someone's indie web site
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@treitnauer How To Become an IndieWeb citizen: https://reitnauer.com/b/4H (twitter.com/_/status/839217834832113670)
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aaronpk ^^ this is a great summary of how easy it should be to set up an indieweb site on wordpress
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[jeremycherfas] !tell chrisaldrich 7:30CET tomorrow ok?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[chrisaldrich] jeremycherfas I'll be in the car at 7:30, but home at 8AM CET if that still works for you. (In about 10 hours.)
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Loqi [chrisaldrich]: [jeremycherfas] left you a message 3 days, 6 hours ago: I prefer Skype. My Skype name is jeremycherfas.
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Loqi [chrisaldrich]: [jeremycherfas] left you a message 4 minutes ago: 7:30CET tomorrow ok?
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[jeremycherfas] chrisaldrich 8 works better for me!
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[chrisaldrich] sleep in I'll be up late...
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[cleverdevil] FYI, folks, I'll be in Boston starting tomorrow for A Day of REST – https://adayofrest.hm/boston-2017/
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[cleverdevil] Not sure if anyone will be there or around, but as always would love to meet up to chat IndieWeb, WordPress, DreamHost, etc.
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/m/4nCbBmhf.jpg
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[cleverdevil] LOL
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davidmead Afternoon all. I just signed up for anchor.fm. Anyone figured out how to PESOS/POSSE from it before I start adding stuff on there?
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tantek what is anchor?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "anchor" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is anchor.fm?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "anchor.fm" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek huh
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aaronpk i can't tell what it is
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tantek davidmead: can you create a /anchor.fm article explaining what it is?
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GWG I could use a different kind of day of rest.
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davidmead tantek: sure. it just came out for Android today so I’m a little in the dark, but I’ll put what I know :-)
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tantek hmm interesting to know what makes it worth bothering with at all
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gRegorLove Looks kind of like a playlist manager for various audio sources
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gRegorLove Oh, more for broadcasting: https://anchor.fm/about
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gRegorLove I'd be surprised if there's an easy way to get your stuff out of it, davidmead. I don't see anything about an API.
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aaronpk they should add micropub so you can post the things you make from the app to your website!
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gRegorLove Especially because it lets you include Apple Music / Spotify in the audio, so licensing issues
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gRegorLove I do see oembed in the HTML though
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davidmead page created https://indieweb.org/anchor.fm
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davidmead That’s why i thought it might be good. Adding short audio clips from there to my site via the URL share gRegorLove
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davidmead one of the first ideas on support.anchor.fm is “RSS feed for stations”. :-) I just upvoted it
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aaronpk welp. just got my first chat spam from my chat widget on my site
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aaronpk that didn't take long
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snarfed wow surprising
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aaronpk yeah
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