#indieweb 2017-03-14

2017-03-14 UTC
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[cleverdevil] For those that haven't seen it, yet, I am really loving the Nextcloud News app for feed reading – http://share.cleverdevil.io/DpvXCpLJXz.png
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hs0ucy_ KevinMarks: So what's the problem between webmention.herokuapp.com and https://brid.gy/twitter/hs0ucy ? I missed something?
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KevinMarks not sure
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KevinMarks hm https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/841441601318735872 gets 'no webmention targets' https://brid.gy/twitter/hs0ucy#
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@kevinmarks @hs0ucy how about rural France or England? (twitter.com/_/status/841441601318735872)
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snarfed https://brid.gy/about#missing
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KevinMarks oh wit, that wasn't a POSSEd one
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KevinMarks this one worked
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KevinMarks http://hugo.soucy.cc/note/2016/11/browsers-not-apps-are-the-future-of-mobile.html
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Loqi [Hugo Soucy] «Browsers, not apps, are the future of mobile» ~ http://x.soucy.cc/ck #WebDev
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KevinMarks you get the 'oh, brid.gy doesn't resize the avatar image' game to play now
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hs0ucy_ KevinMarks: LOL, it's indeed a big picture of you :)
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snarfed true! what would it resize it to? that's receiver-specific.
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KartikPrabhu bridgy should not do resizing stuff
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KevinMarks yes, you need the line I use in http://www.kevinmarks.com/style.css .webmention-author img {height: 3em; float:left; margin:.25em;}
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KevinMarks or something suited to your site
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KevinMarks I suppose it's more webmention.herokuapp.com doesn't supply default styles
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hs0ucy_ KevinMarks: Thanks for those tests ... Maybe it's only working with new ones ?
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hs0ucy_ KevinMarks: Yes i will style all this.
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hs0ucy_ snarfed: Thanks for the documentation.
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snarfed np!
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hs0ucy_ And sorry for my not so good english ;)
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KevinMarks hm, I hit retry on some older brid.gy likes, but they didn't show up on the posts
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snarfed were the wms sent successfully?
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snarfed http://brid.gy/about#missing :P
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KevinMarks https://brid.gy/log?start_time=1489451534&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyTAsSCFJlc3BvbnNlIj50YWc6dHdpdHRlci5jb20sMjAxMzo3ODk0ODQwNDMwODM0NjA2MDhfZmF2b3JpdGVkX2J5XzE3ODgzNTU2OAw
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snarfed so, yes, wm sent successfully
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hs0ucy_ snarfed KevinMarks : Ok i enhance the style a little bit.
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hs0ucy_ KevinMarks: i'm not sure to understand the meaning of the URL you just posted...
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@TerminalPixel Day 70 of #100DaysOfCode: Added initial url handling to my #indieweb #chatbot Just share a url with it and it will… https://grant.codes/2017/03/14/58c73c95eb3bc72a1aab1cbb (twitter.com/_/status/841449707872374784)
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snarfed hs0ucy: it's a raw bridgy webmention log. don't worry about it, not too useful in this case
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KevinMarks it implies you should have a like on that post too
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hs0ucy_ KevinMarks: But i don't.
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hs0ucy_ KevinMarks: I mean it is not visible on the page.
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KevinMarks hm, but a like I just made shows up
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KevinMarks http://hugo.soucy.cc/note/2016/11/browsers-not-apps-are-the-future-of-mobile.html
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Loqi [Hugo Soucy] «Browsers, not apps, are the future of mobile» ~ http://x.soucy.cc/ck #WebDev
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hs0ucy_ KevinMarks: Good news :)
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KevinMarks so it's probably twitter's unco-operative API that is making old ones not appear.
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hs0ucy_ KevinMarks: I think you're right.
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KartikPrabhu one thing I have done in the past is reconstruct the brigy URL and send a webmntion to my post
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hs0ucy_ KartikPrabhu: How do you reconstructed the bridgy URL?
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KartikPrabhu hs0ucy_: see https://brid.gy/about#source-urls
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snarfed https://brid.gy/about#source-urls
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KartikPrabhu ha! I beat snarfed by 1 second
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KevinMarks though bridgy sending the url didn't help
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KevinMarks though bridgy sending the url didn't help
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KevinMarks I just resent it via http://mention-tech.appspot.com/
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KevinMarks and still doesn;t show up
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: you can check if the markup on the bridgy reconstructed URL is correct and send a mention directly from that (?)
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@100daysindieweb Day 83: RSVPs in Quill #100DaysOfIndieWeb: https://aaronparecki.com/2017/03/13/11/day-83-quill-rsvp (twitter.com/_/status/841457525438345216)
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hs0ucy_ KevinMarks snarfed KartikPrabhu : Thanks for your help ... I'm going to bed. See you !
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KevinMarks I did
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KevinMarks wow, look at all these TLDs with oly 1 domain registered https://ntldstats.com/tld
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KevinMarks Amex wants .open https://icannwiki.org/.open
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miklb why would Yahoo have .flickr and not push that to users to have username.flickr ?
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@rbrt1000 haha this explains perfectly why anything but an open web is silly https://xkcd.com/1810/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/841489450458857473)
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arush I'm starting to think we may be able to blame Twitter and Facebook themselves for our webmentions not showing up. Just tested a couple with webmention.tech manually and they still don't show up, although they report as being received successfully.
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GWG There is a way to manually send a Webmention.
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arush gwg: I'm about to try it through the webmention form on my site and see what that does.
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GWG I love that that form is now built in
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arush gwg: Yes. I love that too. But just tested manually and no dice.
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snarfed GWG arush it's definitely wordpress. twitter and facebook are nowhere near where the wms go missing.
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GWG snarfed, I am still stumped
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GWG I have the same code on multiple sites.
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snarfed arush: i actually suspect your wm receiver isn't working at all. it's responding to the webmention POSTs by returning the post's HTML itself, which is a strong sign that your wordpress and/or the plugin itself are badly misconfigured
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snarfed example: https://brid.gy/log?start_time=1489418712&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyNQsSCFJlc3BvbnNlIid0YWc6dHdpdHRlci5jb20sMjAxMzo4NDEzMDE2NDUyMDgyMzE5MzcM
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snarfed (look at the "Sent! ..." line)
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KartikPrabhu looks like GET rather than POST
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: exactly, for the wm's target= param. that's how arush's server is interpreting it
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arush snarfed: I see what you're saying. That does look like get.
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GWG Yes, but I'm completely stumped as to how that happens.
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GWG The only difference I've noticed is that arush.io doesn't use the pretty permalinks.
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arush gwg: No, it doesn't, and I've been meaning to go change that setting, but not sure why that would make a difference. This at least narrows things down a bit more though.
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GWG arush: I'm not sure it would.
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GWG I'm just saying that is the only thing I noticed so far.
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snarfed i wonder if the target param isn't getting url-encoded
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GWG snarfed: pfefferle committed a change to URL encode at your suggestion, I think. But it isn't in stable.
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snarfed GWG: i meant in bridgy's wm request
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snarfed (that issue i filed is the reverse, wp *sending* wms)
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arush Thinking about grabbing the plugin from GitHub directly to see if that fixes the issue. I can copy the site to staging to test.
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GWG Well, it only has a few minor fixes
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arush Also not opposed to exporting the content, nuking it from orbit, and rebuilding if necessary. It's just standard content and isn't reliant on any custom post types or custom fields.
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GWG arush: Also, I don't think Post Kinds could be the issue
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arush Nope. Already eliminated that one.
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snarfed looks like bridgy is url-encoding target properly
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snarfed arush: i highly doubt your content is causing it. i'm pretty convinced it's a plugin bug or misconfiguration
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GWG But the question is what?
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snarfed yup. GWG you have a clear repro case! try the same permalink format on your testbed, add a bunch of logging and have arush install that to see what it outputs, etc. lots of ways forward.
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GWG That was what I was going to do. How do you clear the webmention cache? I have that test Twitter account.
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arush snarfed: I don't think the content's the issue. It is, however, a long-existing WP install that's been through several migrations, and if it were reliant on a bunch of CPTs/custom fields it would make it more difficult to rebuild. Assuming the plugin isn't the problem it could probably use a rebuild anyway.
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jeremycherfas Good morning
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jeremycherfas Kevinmarks: are you in UK now?
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tantek good morning #indieweb! happy Gregorian pi day!
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sebsel good morning tantek :)
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sebsel The indieweb version of pi: http://3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592.com/
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sebsel (nice url design)
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cweiske is that a show-ads-scam site?
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sebsel oh, I blocked the ad, so I didn't see it. It used to have the first million digits of pi (says the text) but now he moved it to /index2.html and then to /index3.html and then to somewhere else.
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cweiske I got until 11
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sebsel it's not that much on topic, other than the url-design
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hs0ucy good morning indieworldwideweb
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arush Good morning indieweb.
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GWG Morning
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sl007 Hello everybody - aaronpk Q: Wanted to implement the IndieAuth session logic to let login persist - but how can we invalidate that - let users log out from indieauth.com only means no possibility to self host and when we deliver a log out link to client_id there is no guarantee they use it …
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arush gwg: issue filed. Feel free to comment if you think there's anything I've missed from the IRC convo. https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/issues/129
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GWG We'll see if pfefferle has any ideas
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sl007 aaronpk - currently it has a session which expires when the browser is closed - but how could we do secure persistent login …
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aaronpk there are two separate issues here
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aaronpk 1) treating an indieauth.com login as a session is probably not the best approach, since it was not designed to do that
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aaronpk 2) remembering the user on future visits to indieauth.com and letting them click "approve" on login requests without re-verifying with a provider is useful
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aaronpk for 2, you can have a "log out" link on the authorization screen, since the user will see the authorization screen on every request still.
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@spnbmb @refurbsexbot https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct-examples http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-harassment_policy_resources (twitter.com/_/status/841689849732124672)
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@refurbsexbot @spnbmb IndieWeb or Yes and Yes Yes? (twitter.com/_/status/841691139296133120)
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sl007 aaronpk - well yes, the session is just there to identify a user not to store the final login - however 2) I think I see - thankyou
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GWG arush: Your issue is challenging. But we'll figure it out
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tantek this looks like an example of a comment on a fragmention: https://twitter.com/lionzan/status/839509775327047680
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@lionzan Hey @dhh I love this post! It reminds me of @t and @indiewebcamp What if the next Big Idea looked more like email... http://j.mp/2n4BU7Y https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6aJsLTWUAIoZiq.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/839509775327047680)
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tantek (note the /highlight in the image of text)
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tantek perhaps an example of how to POSSE marginalia to Twitter?
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tantek !tell KartikPrabhu what do you think of https://twitter.com/lionzan/status/839509775327047680 as a possible example of how to POSSE a marginalia post to Twitter?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@lionzan Hey @dhh I love this post! It reminds me of @t and @indiewebcamp What if the next Big Idea looked more like email... http://j.mp/2n4BU7Y https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6aJsLTWUAIoZiq.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/839509775327047680)
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GWG I'm trying to decide on what to figure out next.
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tantek GWG what's the next thing on your itches list?
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GWG tantek: I'm in the Webmentions and Semantic Linkbacks code. Untangling, fixing, and transferring code from one to the other
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GWG I fixed fragments, which were being stripped.
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tantek wonderful. you're doing super important work there.
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GWG I also have some warnings/notices to track down.
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GWG But, I am trying to figure out what to move over next.
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GWG Also, I have some other features that are related to consider as next move
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GWG Such as comment permalinks.
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GWG Improvement of mf2 parsing
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tantek what is a comment permalink
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "comment permalink" yet. Would you like to create it?
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GWG Right now, there is a pagination issue with WordPress comments that makes replying to a comment specifically difficult
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GWG https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/34106
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tantek it may be worth documenting the notion of a "comment permalink" more precisely
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GWG pfefferle worked on this briefly in a small plugin called Webmentions for Comments - https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention-for-comments
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tantek as that's something we likely want interop on across implementations
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tantek it likely impacts /Salmentions
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aaronpk interesting. I don't create permalinks for comments I receive
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tantek aaronpk: not even with a fragment?
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aaronpk that's different
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aaronpk wordpress already has fragment links for comments according to that
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tantek I would still consider that a permalink
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tantek right it does, however I think the issues that GWG is talking about are something else
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tantek that's one difference for example between a comment permalink and a reply permalink
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aaronpk and the first response against the proposed idea is pushing back because comment URLs would create a lot of permalinks on the website
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tantek a reply permalink is the permalink of the reply posted on the author of the reply's own site
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tantek whereas a comment permalink is a permalink to where that reply is displayed as a comment on the original post that it is replying to
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aaronpk hm i actually don't have fragment links for comments either
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aaronpk is that important? what is the use case?
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tantek the use case is salmentions
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tantek I think
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tantek (thinking out loud)
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GWG aaronpk: It does, but due to pagination, if the pagination changes, it breaks the link.
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GWG If you look at the ticket I referenced
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tantek what's being paginated GWG?
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GWG comments
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GWG https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/34106
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tantek aaronpk - the use case question is reasonable, however we can at least document the phenomenon since it is a (common?) existing publishing pattern
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miklb doesn't understand pagination of comments
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GWG This is more detailed.
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aaronpk tantek: i don't think it's required for salmention, because my comments display links to the original comment URL for each one
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aaronpk also the wordpress situation is slightly different because those comments exist *only* as a comment on the site, not at their own URLs
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tantek A comment permalink is a permalink to where a [[reply]] is displayed as a [[comment]] on (in the context of) the original post that the reply is replying to, and supported by typical publishing systems such as [[WordPress]] and services like [[Blogger]].
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Loqi ok
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tantek aaronpk, depends. I believe if they were generated from a webmention, they're effectively syndicated copies of reply posts
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aaronpk yes, just that use case is not super common for the people commenting on that trac thread
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aaronpk they are coming at it from the "traditional" comment perspective
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GWG aaronpk: But an implementation inside Webmentions the plugin would not
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tantek I believe Known also has "local" comments
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GWG but, I have two choices. I can go and produce a patch. I can add it to Webmentions. Or I can use one to test it for future patching.
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tantek keep adding to Webmentions
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GWG So, one of my proposals is to close Webmentions for Comments and merge it into the main plugin.
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aaronpk what does that plugin do? i havent heard of it
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miklb GWG if you have a link to that proposal, I'll enthusiastically +1
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GWG miklb: https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/issues/128
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GWG aaronpk: It basically creates comment permalinks so that webmentions can be sent to a specific comment.
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aaronpk aha
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GWG Previously, pfefferle's Webmention Form plugin, which added a webmention form to the comment form, was merged into the main plugin
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aaronpk fewerplugins++
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Loqi fewerplugins has 1 karma
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tantek that sounds like a use-case
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GWG Some of these plugins were used to explore an idea until it hit maturity.
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GWG But Semantic Linkbacks is harder to untangle.
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GWG The first idea I'm exploring is that reply = comment.
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tantek GWG, sorta. a reply when syndicated to the post it is in reply to and shown there is a comment
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GWG tantek: In this case, reply = WordPress comment type 'comment'.
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tantek GWG, depends upon the context of that "reply"
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tantek if by "reply" you mean a reply coming from *some other site* via webmention to your WordPress site, then yes
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tantek if however by "reply" you mean, posting a "reply" *on* your WordPress site in reply to some other site, then no reply!=comment.
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GWG WordPress has a post type called post, and a comment type called comment. This gets nomenclature a bit confusing.
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GWG So, comment types in WordPress built-in include 'comment', 'pingback', and 'trackback'
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GWG In order to display comments determined by Semantic Linkbacks to have the property in-reply-to...Semantic Linkbacks changes the type from webmention(a custom type), to comment, a built-in type
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tantek interesting
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tantek it sounds like new comment types were added not because they were semantically different, but people needed a hook in storage for doing things differently
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GWG On some level, yes
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GWG But this was over a decade ago, hard to track what the discussion was at the time.
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GWG But, fast forward to this decade, when, to match pingback and trackback, pfefferle declared webmention as a comment type.
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tantek sure, seems logical given that pattern, but if the history itself was hacks of convenience, then it doesn't make sense
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GWG But declared like, favorite, bookmark, etc. as metadata attached to a webmention comment type.
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tantek I think your intuition of trying to treat received webmentions more like native "comments" (e.g. in how they're displayed etc.) makes sense
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GWG Except for the exception of, if a reply, changing the comment type to comment.
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tantek GWG, it may make sense to declare all of those as "comment", since even the others are responses that should have fallback summary text that could work in comment form
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GWG So, the only one that is established is reply maps to native 'comment'. So, I want to implement that in Webmentions.
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GWG tantek: There is another solution.
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GWG https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/35214
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GWG But that relies on WordPress Core changes again
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tantek GWG, how does WordPress(.com?) implement their "likes"?
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GWG They require an external service to work.
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tantek ugh that's horrible
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GWG I'd like to implement local likes as a variant of comments.
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tantek and quite surprising
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tantek yes that makes sense
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GWG It's a .com, not a .org feature.
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tantek they get like-pressured :P
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GWG I think about this stuff a lot, I just don't have enough time or influence to proceed sometimes.
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GWG But likely I'll be trying to see how I can move some of the infrastructure over to the Webmentions plugin before I bring over the parsing. Because the issue is if the current infrastructure scales.
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GWG Remember, this is a system where the source URL for a pingback, trackback, and therefore webmention is stored in a field called comment_author_url.
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tantek heh. classic here's a URL field, let's just re-use it for some other URL
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GWG tantek: I've done my research. Just trying to figure out how to address all this stuff and on what level
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amz3 please forgive me because I am guilty
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amz3 it's been four years I said i would write a indieweb app
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amz3 and I failed!
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amz3 I am guilty of failing!
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amz3 I failed because I had to learn a new programming language called Scheme
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amz3 -had
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on A brief analogy of food culture and the internet by Gorging on the social internet | Jeremy Cherfas" by Gorging on the social internet | Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-03-14 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/13/a-brief-analogy-of-food-culture-and-the-internet/#comment-34105
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tantek amz3 - it's ok! what's your personal site today?
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amz3 tantek: http://culturia.one
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amz3 it's a wiki basically
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amz3 you can know what happens on the website via http://culturia.one/discuss/timeline
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tantek amz3 neat! have you considered adding one or more rel=me links so you can use it as your login identity? https://indieweb.org/How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain
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amz3 ah yes good idea
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amz3 hmm
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GWG Re the comment_author_url thing: https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/17771
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amz3 I am not sure how to compare indieweb with federation work done by the w3c
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GWG amz3: W3C is a standards organization. The Indieweb is a user group/community
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GWG We use/build what we talk about.
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amz3 I read design first, format protocol later :)
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GWG Of course, some things developed in the community have turned into W3C recommendations.
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aaronpk amz3: several of us are in that W3C group :-)
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GWG aaronpk: As someone in both, is my summary accurate in your opinion?
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amz3 you know I've been dealing with database NIH syndrom, for some reasons I've been build a EAV database on top of a logic "language"
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amz3 it's not incremental at all! And outside the 'developer to developer' market, it's really difficullt for me to understand what other people would like to use
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amz3 I think my own use case, alone, is useless
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GWG amz3: Is it useful to you?
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amz3 not yet
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amz3 I really like the passage about UX in https://indieweb.org/Design
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amz3 because that's it's driving my research in database area
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GWG If it isn't useful to at least you...
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arush Yay! Webmention problem solved. Now I just need to find out if there's a way to submit them in a batch so I can resubmit all the ones that were missed.
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Loqi ?
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GWG arush: The version with the URL encode/decode fixed it?
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arush gwg: No, but that will probably fix it for some. What fixed it is excluding the webmention endpoint from casche.
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arush Not sure why that's the case, but there it is.
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arush I haven't updated to the latest version of the plugin but I have a WordPress install on the same host that I will test it on since on that setup the endpoint isn't excluded from casche.
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GWG arush: I think it should be excluded.
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arush gwg: Yeah probably. No reason to casche that.
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gRegorLove ^ That sounds worth documenting on the wiki for the plugin, and in the readme
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GWG I'll make a note to submit as part of my PR
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gRegorLove Glad it's working now, arush!
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arush gRegorLove: Me too. I like being able to post status updates on my own site and then have interactions come back in from social media and other places.
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GWG arush: That's a good testimonial.
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arush Does anyone know if it's possible to do a one-time batch resend of wms Bridgy has collected? Google has nothing.
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@megarush1024 The saga ends! Webmentions now working as expected thanks to excluding the endpoint from casche. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/841752461157244928)
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bear arush - you could ask the bridgy folks in #bridgy
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arush bear: thanks.
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bear yvw
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snarfed arush: re bridgy batch resend, not right now. feel free to weigh in on https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/579 !
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@100daysindieweb Day 84: Sending h-card Locations in OwnYourGram #100DaysOfIndieWeb: https://aaronparecki.com/2017/03/14/8/day-84-ownyourgram (twitter.com/_/status/841775956566016000)
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tantek what is language recognition?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "language recognition" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is translation?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/translation
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tantek wow that page is 4+ years old!
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tantek adds some modern conventions
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snarfed martymcguire[m]: re common python micropub client code, you may be interested in https://github.com/kylewm/flask-micropub
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