#indieweb 2017-03-21

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Loqi
guten morgen
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jeremycherfas
Bignose: If you were serious and not just rattling cages, the link is https://cleverdevil.io/2017/user-experience-and-the-indieweb
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Loqi
[Jonathan LaCour] User Experience and the IndieWeb 6 min read https://cleverdevil.io/file/1c771d9b162bacc38d31221a0387d657 Those of you who have been following me on this site and on Twitter...
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bignose
jeremycherfas: thanks. 'twas a bit of both (I'm very jaded on sites that promise an article but hide it behind a bunch of programs I don't accept).
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jeremycherfas
Bignose: I suspected as much. I’m the same, sometimes.
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@ncollig_net
The next @HwcBrussels meeting will be focused on #IndieWeb practices (and probably some self-hosting tips). Stay tuned! w/ @rMdes_
(twtr.io/1PkWxy6xqMs)
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@DonaldBMcIntosh
@CleverDevil #indieweb Re: readers - I have RSS & Twitter agent readers that pull in my favourite news, here https://www.donaldmcintosh.net/news
(twtr.io/1PkdLivkLmw)
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Hosted known doesn't support json micropub #indieweb" by Kevin Marks on 2017-03-19 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/hosted-known-doesnt-support-json-micropub-indieweb
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KevinMarks
which is a shame because woodwind is very close to what cleverdevil was asking for
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cweiske
Clients and servers must support creating posts using the x-www-form-urlencoded syntax, and may also support creating posts using the JSON syntax.
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cweiske
may, not must
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KevinMarks
yes, but ownyourswarm is json only, so there is a posible discovery issue
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KevinMarks
!tell cleverdevil have you looked at woodwind.xyz?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske
there is no way to detect if a micropub endpoint supports json
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cweiske
except by posting and seeing if it fails :/
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cweiske
json is only needed for nested mf objects
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KevinMarks
and for updates
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cweiske
updates can be done with form-encoding, too
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cweiske
no, you're righ
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cweiske
they once worked with form-encoding but do not do anymore
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KevinMarks
I think aaron removed that because of the difficulty of expressing the details with form encoding
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@t
Yesterday #100DoPP d60 Grateful to have my site up again. Documented bandwidth limit problems: https://indieweb.org/bandwidth (ttk.me t4nS1)
(twtr.io/1PmGf2V4Fdg)
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[cleverdevil]
So, I have looked at woodwind.
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Loqi
[cleverdevil]: KevinMarks left you a message 4 hours, 22 minutes ago: have you looked at woodwind.xyz?
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[cleverdevil]
And some of the other things that have been suggested in the comments.
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[cleverdevil]
They're all good starts, to be sure!
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[cleverdevil]
I still believe that real traction is going to require a native mobile app for iOS and Android, along with a *really* nice and easy to use web app for desktop, or native apps there.
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[cleverdevil]
Getting parity with silos in terms of user experience is going to be really tough.
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tantek
cleverdevil really curious what makes you think "require a native mobile app"
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tantek
design, offline, performance, notifications?
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[cleverdevil]
For parity with silos, its absolutely necessary, IMO, for all of those reasons you describe.
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tantek
(because most (maybe all) of that is now available for mobile web apps)
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tantek
what is a PWA
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Loqi
Progressive Web App (PWA) is a web site that a client can progressively enhance into a standalone app that's comparable with a native app https://indieweb.org/PWA
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[cleverdevil]
Plus, it gives you integrations with other apps through things like "share sheets."
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[cleverdevil]
While they're *available* in PWAs, there aren't really any successful ones that have shown market traction.
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tantek
right, it's still pretty new
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[cleverdevil]
I'm coming at this from the perspective of a product manager 😉
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tantek
but if we're talking about building new things
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tantek
it's worth building to the what works today on the mobile web
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tantek
instead of handwringing about what people haven't built yet
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tantek
cleverdevil, same
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[cleverdevil]
I think that's fair feedback.
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tantek
it's cheaper to build a mobile web app than a native app
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tantek
and works across more devices / platforms
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tantek
so as a product manager, a *new* "native" app has to really prove why it needs to be native
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[cleverdevil]
That's true, and actually, with some of the toolkits that are available today, its pretty easy to build out "native" apps that are really just web apps under the hood.
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[cleverdevil]
You want this so you can appear in the various app stores
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[cleverdevil]
Slack, for example, is pretty much a web app that is deployed across desktop, mobile, and web.
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KartikPrabhu
so... this is a comparison between "old tech" and "emerging tech"
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tantek
I think you're setting the right bar though, an indieweb mobile web app needs to "feel" like old/past silo *native* apps
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[cleverdevil]
Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying!
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aaronpk
app store distribution is a good reason to at least package a web app as a native app
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[cleverdevil]
Perhaps I should have left out the "native" aspect.
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[cleverdevil]
Its sort of a distraction.
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tantek
it doesn't mean you have to build a native app per se, just that you should be comparing to existing native mobile apps
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[cleverdevil]
You need to be providing an experience on-par with the silos.
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[cleverdevil]
The method isn't so important.
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tantek
aaronpk - app store distribution seems like a multiplier, not a "get out the door" feature
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tantek
i.e. app store is not MVP
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tantek
cleverdevil, totally agreed with experience
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tantek
however, I would offer that a *simpler* experience could be better than what the silos offer today
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[cleverdevil]
I can agree with that, too, but I do think it will be necessary to get real traction.
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tantek
so you may be able to get away with *less work*
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[cleverdevil]
This is why I'm actually bullish on Micro.blog.
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tantek
don't worry about real traction until you have a core group of active users
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tantek
until then, app store etc. is just jumping the gun
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[cleverdevil]
Its starting with a smaller core feature set.
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[cleverdevil]
On the desktop, I definitely think my suggestion of re-inventing the browser is the right path.
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[cleverdevil]
The browser is effectively the shell for the open web.
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jaduncan[m]
Yes. I want something I can hand to my nontechnical friends, and some of them find the FB UI the limits of their abilities. I don't want a site as user-hostile as FB to be their only choice.
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tantek
agreed jaduncan[m]
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tantek
I also want to do fewer technical things just to maintain my website :
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@raretrack
@ChrisAldrich @kimberlyhirsh Note to self: is it time to migrate from #Known to a more fully-featured #indieweb site? Yes, but daunting!
(twtr.io/1PmTTac55RL)
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@cswordpress
As long as you then backfeed that content to a personal website, you're good. #indieweb https://twitter.com/jcasabona/status/844245527508271104
(twtr.io/1PmU3NVTwim)
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Comment on A reply to Kimberly Hirsch: Doing my part to fix the internet by Rob Fairhead" by Rob Fairhead on 2017-03-21 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/20/a-reply-to-kimberly-hirsch-doing-my-part-to-fix-the-internet/#comment-34212
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Zegnat
!tell cleverdevil Is there some reason for keeping the t.co URLs in the quoted tweets? https://cleverdevil.io/2017/user-experience-and-the-indieweb
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
[Jonathan LaCour] User Experience and the IndieWeb 6 min read https://cleverdevil.io/file/1c771d9b162bacc38d31221a0387d657 Those of you who have been following me on this site and on Twitter...
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@ChrisAldrich
@raretrack @kimberlyhirsh What?! We LOVE @withknown! You'll have to pull it from my cold, dead hands... http://indieweb.org/multi-site_indieweb
(twtr.io/1PmYms4Gq3j)
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GWG
Afternoon
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dgold
aaronpk: you slack->irc gateway script: the 'token' that needs to be set in the config.json -- is that the _outgoing_ webhook token?
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aaronpk
dgold: that's the token from slack to get messages in to slack
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aaronpk
oops no my bad. that's an access token for using the API
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dgold
that's what I thought
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dgold
I can't seem to get your bot working
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aaronpk
come over to #indieweb-chat so we don't fill this channel with debugging
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dgold
got it working!
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Loqi
yay!
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dgold
except now my bot script is bouncing messages back to the channel. </facepalm>
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aaronpk
haha yeah. try ignoring IRC messages from IRC users with a username of "slackuser"
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Loqi
aaronpk: lol
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dgold
as in: rebouncing messages sent slack->irc->slack
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dgold
yeah, just needs a slight adjustment in the relay irc->slack to ignore users with certain criteria
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gRegorLove
Good afternoon, indieweb!
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@kimberlyhirsh
@emilyvgordon Me too. Then I learned about @indiewebcamp & was all "I'm going long-form!"
(twtr.io/1PmgtoTb4QY)
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KevinMarks
Having just Got a new phone, having to reinstall and log into all the native apps is really annoying
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KevinMarks
Whereas web apps have my passwords stored because of Chrome
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tantek
Kevinmarks I think that pain "annoying" is correct. Having just setup a minimal iPod touch for intl travel, I like being very aware of every account I'm giving the iPod in case of it being compromised.
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KevinMarks
Wondering if I should try matrix rather than slack for indieweb
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gRegorLove
I tried it through riot.im very briefly. Seemed to work fine.
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sknebel
same. didn't try anything complicated, but looked ok
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[cleverdevil]
That's a good point, kevinmarks, and a frustration that I share.
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Loqi
[cleverdevil]: Zegnat left you a message 3 hours, 32 minutes ago: Is there some reason for keeping the t.co URLs in the quoted tweets? https://cleverdevil.io/2017/user-experience-and-the-indieweb
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[cleverdevil]
I think having a good responsive web app that supports things like push notifications (a PWA, as tantek calls it) is an awesome first step.
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[cleverdevil]
!tell Zegnat the reason for the t.co links is that I used Twitter's "embed Tweet" system to generate the markup to put in my post and I believe that they transform everything to t.co links.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat
Well, yes, but Twitter’s JS is blocked on my end. So I see your blockquotes. And I was wondering if there was a reason for the URLs in those not being expended.
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[cleverdevil]
Ah, yeah, the markup itself came from Twitter.
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[cleverdevil]
I also block the Twitter JavaScript 🙂
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Zegnat
I mean, I understand why Twitter would put those t.co-s there. But I assume the blockquotes are part of your own markdown. It was just a thought that struck me, doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to have minimised links in one’s own markup
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club: March 22, 2017" by Ben Werdmüller on 2017-03-21 http://werd.io/2017/homebrew-website-club-march-22-2017
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benwerd
tantek: ^^
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tantek
thanks benwerd, was just writing up my RSVP
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tantek
FB POSSE copy?
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benwerd
writing it now
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[cleverdevil]
True, @Zengat, but I was lazy and just copy/pasted from Twitter.
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[cleverdevil]
I wish there was a cool that could just take a permalink to a Tweet and transform it into nice markup for embedding.
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KartikPrabhu
[cleverdevil]: granary does that
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KevinMarks
Doesn't xray do that too?
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aaronpk
XRay will give you JSON, but not HTML
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KevinMarks
What is xray?
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Loqi
XRay is an open source API that returns structured data for a URL by parsing microformats and following other indieweb algorithms, and is part of the p3k suite of applications https://indieweb.org/XRay
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[cleverdevil]
Awesome. Either a Known plugin or a CLI tool based upon Granary would be cool.
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[cleverdevil]
I'll take a closer look at it.
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KevinMarks
Didn't you have a collection type had was
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KevinMarks
A list of tweet urls?
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tantek
HWC tomorrow night!
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tantek
HWC SF RSVP URLs (indie event, FB event) are up - please RSVP! https://indieweb.org/events/2017-03-22-homebrew-website-club#San_Francisco
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tantek
Note: HWC SF is @MatterVC this week!
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benwerd
Read: Ben's buying the beer
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tantek
that needs to be in the event!
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calumryan
Would like to publish the HWC London events there
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[cleverdevil]
Hmm... looks like Granary is really focused on using the Twitter API.
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[cleverdevil]
I just need something simpler, I think, that will take the permalink to a tweet, and translate it to HTML.
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snarfed
[cleverdevil]: granary hopefully still does that ok, even if it's using the API
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snarfed
what's making you reluctant?
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[cleverdevil]
Seems like overkill, I suppose?
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snarfed
or, better q, what's the use case?
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snarfed
maybe, but if it works, don't worry about it
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[cleverdevil]
I guess I'd start with a simple CLI tool that I can feed a permalink to a tweet, and then just generate some basic HTML markup that I can paste into my Known site when I want to embed a tweet.
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[cleverdevil]
Then, potentially a Known plugin that automatically converts permalink tweets to Twitter embeds.
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[cleverdevil]
(That'd be better, but I expect would take longer, and I'm much better with Python than with PHP)
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snarfed
oh embedding. if you want twitter's official embeds, yeah, that's not granary
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[cleverdevil]
I think I likely do, but I'm not married to it.
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snarfed
it's literally just inserting the tweet id into the embed template string
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[cleverdevil]
The way it worked for me when I embedded these tweets in my post was that I clicked on "Embed Tweet" on the Twitter site, which gave me a <blockquote> containing the full tweet, and a little bit of JavaScript to transform it on the site for people who have JS enabled.
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snarfed
right. you can take that blockquote, remove the text, and change the tweet id each time, and it will work for any tweet
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snarfed
if you also want the tweet text, you can fetch a granary URL and extract it from the returned JSON. https://granary-demo.appspot.com/ , click on twitter, log in, enter the tweet id in the activity id box, choose format json-mf2, and you'll get a sample granary URL (with API token) that you can change the tweet id in
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snarfed
if you get ambitious, your known will have its own twitter api key that you can substitute in
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[cleverdevil]
Ah, but that would require JavaScript to be enabled for anything above and beyond the permalink to show up, right?
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[cleverdevil]
(for the blockquote without the text)
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snarfed
alternatively there are lots of twitter clis, eg https://github.com/sferik/t , https://github.com/oysttyer/oysttyer
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[cleverdevil]
Yeah, I think that a Known plugin is probably the right path here.
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[cleverdevil]
Just gotta find the time 😛
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benwerd
knows the feeling
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[cleverdevil]
There's already a WordPress plugin - https://plugins.svn.wordpress.org/twitter/trunk/ – that does a lot of the work.
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[cleverdevil]
Might be able to convert it to a Known plugin 😛
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GWG
Evening
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benwerd
I've explicitly removed "ask the experts questions" from the official description, as I think it's too one-way
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tantek
good call
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tantek
hmm where did that come from, not on the wiki page: https://indieweb.org/events/2017-03-22-homebrew-website-club
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aaronpk
probably an old wiki page
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gRegorLove
It was only recently changed to "Any questions?" there
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benwerd
I made it _much_ more general in light of the excellent conversation we had at the last Matter-hosted HWC
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gRegorLove
benwerd++
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Loqi
benwerd has 102 karma in this channel (127 overall)
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tantek
any notes or blog post about that excellent conversation?
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gRegorLove
I'll review. I've definitely just been copy-pasting for my indie event posts
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benwerd
I didn't document, but the conversation was around misinformation (perhaps because we were in a media environment). Talking about how the bigger problem is clickbait, lack of context, and single points of failure for content distribution.
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tantek
hmm it was in the Moz weekly project event description also, just removed
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benwerd
Which is very indieweb-on-message.
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tantek
benwerd, really? did everyone really let the news aggregators (Google, Yahoo etc.) off the hook that easily?
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benwerd
Yep - clearly you would have added a perspective we didn't have :)
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gRegorLove
Huh, I guess "Ask the experts" has been gone a lot longer than I thought
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tantek
their surfacing and sometimes outright *promotion* of fake news was (is?) definitely a massive problem
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gRegorLove
https://indieweb.org/events/2016-04-27-homebrew-website-club appears to be the last time "ask the experts" appeared
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tantek
so nearly a year go
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[cleverdevil]
OK, figured it out, and I've got a plugin to my reStructuredText workflow that automatically translates any Twitter permalinks into oembeds.
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[cleverdevil]
Thanks for the feedback, all 🙂
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tantek
what is reStructuredText?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "reStructuredText" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10eD
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[cleverdevil]
reStructuredText is an easy-to-read, what-you-see-is-what-you-get plaintext markup syntax and parser system. It is similar to [[Markdown]], but has a more formal specification. Find more information here - http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/introduction.html.
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tantek
what is 👉?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "👉" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10eE
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mblaney
updated my micropub client code and now I pass less tests than before :-/
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mblaney
unicyclic.com only posts html, so previously passing the form encoded tests wasn't actually a fair representation of what it does.
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aaronpk
It's okay, the tests are testing the spec more than the implementation . I need to figure out a way to indicate better when a client is considered "complete"
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tantek
mblaney - interesting! are these optional features?
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mblaney
aaronpk yeah I feel like I'm making improvements and coming more in line with the spec, even though there are less ticks :-)
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mblaney
tantek my posting interface isn't optional at the moment, it's just a rich text editor that produces html.
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mblaney
but I could definitely see a case for making that more flexible in the future.
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tantek
mblaney - still worth submitting an implementation report that's been updated with the results from the micropub.rocks client tests!
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