#indieweb 2017-04-04

2017-04-04 UTC
nitot, snarfed, tolerablyjake and wolftune joined the channel
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snarfed
ok, i'll go with [has an mf2 class OR has a micropub or webmention endpoint]
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tantek
snarfed, sounds like a decent heuristic
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tantek
yeah if it has a top level h-card, h-feed, or collection of h-entry that's already "indieweb" enough to show in reply-contexts etc.
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tantek
and strongly agreed about micropub or webmention endpoint
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[kevinmarks]
Aaronpk you could add the incantation so it is full size on mobile?
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aaronpk
i'm so unreasonably pleased with having my checkins on my website including the coins swarm sends me
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tantek
it looks SO GOOD
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tantek
kevinmarks the tech solidarity events all start later than HWC
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tantek
so not much if any overlap
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tantek
they don't actually get started til at least 19:30 or so, more like 19:45 in my experience
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snarfed1
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 484 karma in this channel (1264 overall)
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aaronpk
the only thing is i'm not sure whether it's good or bad that now the majority of my home page is checkins (with photos)
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aaronpk
(checkins without photos don't get added to my home page)
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tantek
oh right this is the filter you're iterating on
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tantek
checks aaronpk's home page
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[kevinmarks]
Hoping mine get to known sometime soon. It'll take Ben merging your new micropub and deploying the hosted version
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aaronpk
it's merged!
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aaronpk
[cleverdevil] has been using it!
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tantek
aaronpk - I like your home page with the photos
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tantek
tbh the way you present checkins-with-photos look more like photo posts with location info than "checkins" - at least as I scroll by
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tantek
I think that's a good way to do it
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aaronpk
yeah they are very similar, the only difference is the "at ______" and having the location+timestamp in the header.
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tantek
IG puts location and timestamp there too right? or maybe they moved timestamp to below the photo (years ago)
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aaronpk
i think i need some minor tweak to make them look more like check-ins, but i like it for the most part
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tantek
I don't know - I think they look quite nice as is
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tantek
and the subtle clues of 45 coins etc.
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tantek
swarm icon
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aaronpk
my thought was that having the time at the top of the post would give it more of an indication of being something that happened right then
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tantek
sort of
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tantek
it would if you showed it as a delta time
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tantek
minutes ago
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tantek
just now
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aaronpk
ooh hmm
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aaronpk
i will have to think about that
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aaronpk
i don't like relative times once they're older than a day or so
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tantek
and then *especially* if you had aggregate stats on how long you typically stayed at each location
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tantek
and listed that too!
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aaronpk
but they are more helpful for things that happened recently
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tantek
at Loyal Legion 10 minutes ago, and typically here for about 30 min at a time.
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aaronpk
hmm tricky. I technically have the data, but not in that form yet
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tantek
if you really wanted to make it feel like "now"
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tantek
like actual "now"
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tantek
in contrast to nownownow
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tantek
what is nownownow
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "nownownow" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek
what is now
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Loqi
A now page is a page that tells you what a person is focused on at this point in their life https://indieweb.org/Now
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tantek
yeah that thing
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tantek
ah yes this is where I point out as predicted that the examples of "now" are already out of date a month after the fact
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tantek
e.g. chrisaldrich's http://boffosocko.com/now/ still lists HWC 2017-03-08
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Loqi
[Jacob S. Hacker and Paul Pierson] What I’m Doing Now
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tantek
"Last updated March 12, 2017."
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aaronpk
at least it says when it was last updated
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aaronpk
i wonder how i could make a "still here" icon
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tantek
the photos are good aaronpk
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aaronpk
probably something with movement, like a pulsing green dot
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tantek
subtle "still here icon" idea: blue dot
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aaronpk
blue! of course
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tantek
like the blue dot on a map
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tantek
pulsing animated blue dot gif
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aaronpk
i certainly have the data to do that with, since you know, my phone's battery life is in the header of my site :)
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aaronpk
i might need to do 100 weeks of indieweb, so that i can have an excuse to ship random features like this :)
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tantek
yeah!
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tantek
that takes the daily stress off
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aaronpk
it both takes the daily stress off, and also gives me an opportunity to do things i wouldn't otherwise plan time for because it feels like i'm not doing something else i'm supposed to be doing
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tantek
wait the getting rid of egg default icon on Twitter wasn't an april fools joke?
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miklb
GWG do you know of a good link off top of your head about mf2 and WP themes? I recall a trac ticket but not sure what to search for.
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GWG
How to do them?
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GWG
Or putting them into WordPress Core?
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miklb
no, the discussion about supporting mf2 in the themes
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miklb
yes, Core.
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GWG
It was a Trac ticket
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miklb
is writing a companion blog post to your comments post
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GWG
I could probably find it.
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GWG
Yes
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gRegorLove
Can't archive an NYT article with the Wayback Machine apparently; it just gets the paywall login.
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tantek
good evening #indieweb!
snarfed, anarchivist_, tantek, ben_thatmust, tommorris_, michel_v_, corenominal, altharatoo, GWG-, ricardokirkner, braidn_, daf, wolftune, TheGillies, leg, rdesfo[m], _6a68, madgoat, cweiske and jihaisse joined the channel
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@kevinmarks
KYLI by @edent: https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2017/03/kyli-because-it-is-superior-to-json/ not sure if this is a genuine proposal or a coded plea to use TSV instead of CSV #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/849153131783102464)
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@kevinmarks
@Meaningness No, it's called "owning a domain name" and has a huge ecosystem. #indieweb 0
(twitter.com/_/status/849181276187873280)
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jeremycherfas
Good morning
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Loqi
[seanflannagan] Every product wants you to join their Slack, but would be easier to click to a website (https://spectrum.chat/ https://indieweb.org/irc/today?%29=...
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jeremycherfas
!tell @seanflannagan Ooops. Typo earlier. Re: https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-04-03/1491259792597000 if Spectrum is free, who is the customer?
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Loqi
[seanflannagan] Every product wants you to join their Slack, but would be easier to click to a website (https://spectrum.chat/ https://indieweb.org/irc/today?%29=...
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dgold
kevinmarks: I've read the entirety of that screed -- what's he actually positing?
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dgold
because, in between all the whitespace, all I can make out of it is something to do with blockchain
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dgold
oh, jjustrealised I was missing a few posts.
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dgold
PGP? he's stating that as the panacea? oh, wow.
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[kevinmarks]
I see a lot of this with the decentralized web people, who think that the actually decentralized fungible infrastructure we have should be replaced with a crypto based monoculture
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dgold
[kevinmarks]: I've been using PGP since, well, a long time. I have _once_ received an encrypted message, I have never (save on specialist mailing lists) received a digitally signed message
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dgold
PGP is a pain in the fundament, and the WoT model is fundamentally broken
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dgold
that said, if anyone wants a keybase invite, I have many
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[kevinmarks]
Though I had a big grump at Signal for just delegating id to phone sim
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jeremycherfas
Could the relaunched Upcoming.org meet the need for an indieweb event site?
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raucao
maybe if it would accept webmentions for RSVPs?
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@EatPodcast
Matt Mullenweg talking to James Altucher kinda sorta gets #indieweb: https://www.jamesaltucher.com/2017/03/matt-mullenweg/
(twitter.com/_/status/849244596647464961)
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jaduncan[m]
tantek: Bonus of the no more egg thing: the head still looks like an egg. I await eggheads becoming a less useful term.
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[eddie]
aaronpk cleverdevil something that might be helpful regarding the health discussion yesterday would be a brainstorm on what the h-entry might look like for that. Would a day post of the Activity have a root level h-entry of stats with nested h-entries of specific activity? Or would it post a separate Micropub request with an h-entry for each separate activity for that day, etc? Having some brainstorming around that could help in the event that I hav
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[eddie]
with some of those ideas in Xcode, because the hardest part for me would be figuring out the microformats for the request
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[cleverdevil]
Good question! Maybe we could use the wiki as a place to submit ideas on that front?
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miklb
lol can't decide if its a feature or a bug that I failed to include the comment form in my site refresh
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[eddie]
miklb ??
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tantek
miklb: definitely a feature ;)
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GWG
I have no problem with local comments because I want to be as open as possible. And at the moment, comments are few
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GWG
I am overdue to work on my theme. It is a bit buggy
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GWG
Too much to do, too little time.
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tantek
GWG, you are fortunate you don't have benwerd's problems then
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tantek
most of his posts it seems get spammed by local comments
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tantek
or perhaps WordPress has better local comment moderation than Known ;)
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GWG
No one cares to comment
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miklb
I may still selectively allow native comments, but want to have them
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snarfed
nativecomments++
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Loqi
nativecomments has 1 karma
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tantek
snarfed, have you seen nativecomments work well anywhere outside of WordPress?
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tantek
to WordPress's credit, it does seem like you, GWG, and others with WordPress manage native comments reasonably well (and get additional positive contributions you might not get otherwise via social media etc.)
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snarfed
tantek: probably! comment spam is definitely a problem, but i highly doubt WP is the only CMS that has solved it
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snarfed
medium is probably another example
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tantek
snarfed, seems like every other CMS delegates to comment embed services like disqus or FB
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snarfed
many, sure, but not all
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tantek
sure, silos have their own comments solutions
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snarfed
eh, the silo boundary is fuzzy. eg medium lets you bring your own domain.
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snarfed
quick, define silo!
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aaronpk
what is a silo?
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Loqi
A silo, or web content hosting silo, in the context of the IndieWeb, is a centralized web site typically owned by a for-profit corporation that stakes some claim to content contributed to it and restricts access in some way (has walls) https://indieweb.org/silo
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aaronpk
thanks Loqi
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Loqi
you're welcome, aaronpk
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tantek
snarfed, good point, medium is a silo and blog hosting service as it were
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sknebel
hm, the only things I've seen that came with disqus support but not support for native comments were static site generators, where local comments can't be a thing. but maybe it is more common to default to comments off?
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sknebel
or just not having a comment system at all, and then site owners add disqus or FB because at all
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sknebel
*because that is easy to do on top
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snarfed
tumblr is another key example of disqus only, no native comments
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Loqi
[gRegor Morrill] Spam statistics since 2016-05-10, when I last reported: 1,224 caught by honeypot — an extra hidden field was filled in when it shouldn’t have been 828 marked as spam by Akismet 18 spam comments got through Akismet...
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tantek
gRegorLove: you're using Akismet not with WordPress?
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tantek
wow ok
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tantek
didn't know people did that
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tantek
what is Akismet
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Loqi
Akismet is an anti-spam webservice from Automattic that has various levels of service both free and paid https://indieweb.org/Akismet
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tantek
gRegorLove: lol: https://indieweb.org/Akismet#Previous_IndieWeb_Examples (maybe neesd an update from you ;) )
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sknebel
I wonder how well e-mail filtering software would work on comment spam
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gRegorLove
The Akismet API is pretty easy to work with
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gRegorLove
Interesting idea, sknebel
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[cleverdevil]
makes a note to investigate an Akismet plugin for Known.
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[cleverdevil]
Nice, gRegorLove++
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[eddie]
Another small step in my progress of tracking and sharing my activities that are important to me: Listen posts! http://eddiehinkle.com/listen/
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[cleverdevil]
Nice, eddie!
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Loqi
eddie has 7 karma in this channel (8 overall)
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@benwerd
I'm hosting Homebrew Website Club at @mattervc SF tomorrow. Join us for demos and discussion about a stronger independent web. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/849316882029191168)
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "I'm hosting Homebrew Website Club at @mattervc SF tomorrow. Join us for demos and discussion about a stronger independent web. #indieweb" by Ben Werdmüller on 2017-04-04 http://werd.io/2017/im-hosting-homebrew-website-club-at-mattervc-sf-tomorrow-join
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@benwerd
I'm hosting Homebrew Website Club at @mattervc SF tomorrow. Join us at 6:30 for demos & talk about a stronger independent web. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/849317193007419393)
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tantek
benwerd++
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Loqi
benwerd has 107 karma in this channel (132 overall)
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martymcguire[m]
nice lookin' listen posts, eddie! if you don't mind my asking, what is your flow for posting those? i listen to lots of podcasts and have started wanting to track them
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[eddie]
right now it’s painful. haha Currently, I listen in overcast, click “share”, “open in safari”. Then when i get to my desktop, I manually create Jekyll entries for each post. However, I’m doing it manually currently since next week I’m beginning work on http://indieweb.org/Indigenous and one of the features I’m going to add is the ability to share a listen post.
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Loqi
[eddie]: lol
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[eddie]
Basically if you are trying to “share” a url, one option will be to share a “listen” and it will check for mf2 markup on the url to generate a listen post. However, I’m also going to do some manual parsing support for Overcast.fm podcast pages as well so that people can use that as a bridge to non-indieweb podcasts
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[eddie]
But I’m trying to figure out what info is needed, etc, by doing this manually before I start on the project ?
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voxpelli
With podcasts there can even be some interesting info within the audio file itself
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[eddie]
Voxpelli: what kind of information are you thinking of? besides duration?
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aaronpk
cover art, episode name, etc
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voxpelli
[eddie]: title, chapters, art, authors
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voxpelli
Maybe even link relations, I don't fully remember
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voxpelli
We did some research at Flattr to try to embed our data into the audio files themselves so that podcatchers wouldn't have to rely on the feed info to be able to send a flattr/scrobble to us
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voxpelli
So if someone eg downloads it over a torrent, they can still do stuff with it (Some germans definitely shared podcasts over torrents)
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[eddie]
ohhh interesting. Yeah, that’s a lot of info
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aaronpk
we're a little light on planned indiewebcamps for 2017!
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tantek
aaronpk, I see several "likelies" as well as the knowns
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tantek
specifically, NYC, MIT, LA
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aaronpk
unless there are suggested dates, i am not optimistic about those yet
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tantek
thinking an SF one might be good right before TPAC
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tantek
if I can find a co-organizer to help out
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tantek
or at least a suggested month, let's start with that
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tantek
!tell chrisaldrich when do you think would be a good month to do IWC LA this year?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
aaronpk, I'm more optimistic for the IWCs where the co-organizers are regularly hanging out here
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tantek
so at least we should sort by that
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aaronpk
for sure
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tantek
gRegorLove: do you remember when IWC Seattle was being planned for? what month?
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tantek
what is SeaGL
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "SeaGL" yet. Would you like to create it?
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gRegorLove
It was in November last year. Presume it's around that time this year.
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gRegorLove
SeaGL is the Seattle GNU/Linux Conference http://seagl.org/
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gRegorLove
Don't see 2017 dates listed yet
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Loqi
[Yoz] This doesn’t feel like the indie web’s last chance, but it’s easily the best chance in a while. We let Facebook eat our relationships, we let Twitter create a new but terrible medium, and then we let Medium eat blogging. I don’t know that Mas...
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tantek
but can you search Mastodon for "indie web" OR indieweb?
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[kevinmarks]
You can only search for hashtags
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aaronpk
does it search per instance or somehow across all of them?
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tantek
seems like an mf2 crawler would index them all
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tantek
creates a W3C wiki page for TPAC 2017 just so he can link to it from /Planning
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tantek
ok let's see if this works
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tantek
now roughly clustered by what I think is "likely"
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tantek
and then ordered by rough date/month order there
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tantek
Bellingham has specific dates
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tantek
Summit is narrowed to two and will decide tomorrow night
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tantek
after that I expect adactio will plan an IWC Brighton in August or early September as he does
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tantek
oops forgot to add likely month to NYC
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tantek
GWG, how is September for IWC NYC?
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tantek
NYC or MIT would be good for September, very likely we can at least do one
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tantek
then SF near TPAC (either in late Oct or early Nov)
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tantek
and LA afterwards, since its still warm in LA in late Nov / early Dec
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tantek
aaronpk - that's my best first guess at rolling out a "likely" schedule of IWCs
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[aaronpk]
Awesome
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tantek
that being said, EVERYONE here @all please take a look at https://indieweb.org/Planning#2017 and add yourself as either "Interested" in each city that you'd like to go to for an IWC, and/or the specific dates!
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tantek
(did that work to notify everyone in Slackland?)
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tantek
Salt, strugee if you can suggest possible dates for folks to start +1/-1ing, we can move Seattle to more likely! https://indieweb.org/Planning#Seattle
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tantek
and hey SF folks add yourselves to https://indieweb.org/Planning#San_Francisco
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Salt
tantek, still trying to nail down our seagl dates, will move on that as soon as I have the others
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gRegorLove
!tell Salt new sponsorship prospectus is up on https://indieweb.org/how-to-sponsor
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
bear: tantek left you a message 5 days, 18 hours ago: can you make it to any of the dates here? add your prefs! https://indieweb.org/Planning#Summit
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GWG
!tell tantek, as long as it isn't a Jewish holiday, I can make it work.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
I need some engaging Indieweb talk to balance my day
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[cleverdevil]
I forwarded your latest post to some of my team today, GWG.
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[cleverdevil]
Hopefully they'll read/respond!
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[cleverdevil]
Oh, and chrisaldrich and I are discussing the potential of an IndieWeb group Known site over in #known.
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GWG
cleverdevil, I had some great feedback from Chrisaldrich about expanding the article as well
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[chrisaldrich]
cleverdevil: I'm spending a few minutes at lunch setting it up as we speak. I've always kind of wanted to try out that part of the functionality.
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Loqi
[chrisaldrich]: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 27 minutes ago: when do you think would be a good month to do IWC LA this year?
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[chrisaldrich]
GWG: I'm more curious about what the next posts in that series will be.
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GWG
I was trying to focus on WordPress building blocks first, but I will expand to add more Indieweb ones
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GWG
Chrisaldrich, users
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[chrisaldrich]
Has wordpress.com opensourced their reader functionality anywhere?
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GWG
Chrisaldrich, not sure
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gRegorLove
They have a reader? Is it for other wordpress.com blogs only?
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[cleverdevil]
Not that I am aware of. The last major thing they open sourced was their frontend for creating new posts.
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gRegorLove
Wow, cool
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[chrisaldrich]
You can use it to subscribe to any RSS feed AFAIK
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[cleverdevil]
(That's Calypso)
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[cleverdevil]
What is Calypso?
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Loqi
Calypso is the javascript-based rewrite of the wordpress admin interface https://indieweb.org/Calypso
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[chrisaldrich]
They just updated it a few months ago to be prettier, the WP reader anyway.
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GWG
Chrisaldrich, re the article, can you imagine how much easier building Indieweb stuff would be if we got that wishlist?
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[chrisaldrich]
GWG: Along with that wishlist comes 20-30 developers' worth of help too I'd guess.
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[chrisaldrich]
And that may be just as useful.
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[chrisaldrich]
If I could have one wish this year, it would be to have webmentions in WP core. My birthday is on July 8th, is that too soon?
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gRegorLove
That's push /Vouch up the priority list :)
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gRegorLove
I still think Vouch will need to be in core at the same time as Webmention, ideally
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GWG
Gregorlove, tantek agrees with you
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@HongPong
I now have account on Mastodon, got in before cutoff: https://mastodon.social/@hongpong please lets get outta the silo amirite!!? #indieweb #Gnusocial
(twitter.com/_/status/849366618618703873)
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aaronpk
lol no
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aaronpk
if you have to "get in before the cutoff" then you're not avoiding a silo
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GWG
Chrisaldrich, you have seen how far the plugin has come
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gRegorLove
Mastodon.social had quite an influx, temporarily disabled registrations
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snarfed
eh, re vouch, i'm still not convinced that it's quite that critical. i expect e.g. akismet will filter webmention comments decently well.
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aaronpk
i'm not sure Vouch is the correct solution for everyone either
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gRegorLove
Well, I'm just imagining with nothing in place (even with just Akismet), it turns into one of those things people make plugins to *disable*. Like pingback.
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GWG
snarfed, if the Webmention plugin was proposed as a feature plugin, what is missing from it?
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snarfed
got me!
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gRegorLove
Why wouldn't all the pingback spam switch to webmention spam when so many sites have it?
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snarfed
gRegorLove: it might, but again, akismet handles pingback spam pretty well
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GWG
I was thinking of writing a plugin that would accept Pingbacks through the XMLRPC server in WordPress and convert them to Webmentions purely as a way to stop supporting Pingbacks unless you wanted them
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snarfed
also there are a couple more orders of magnitude of wp comment form spam than pingback/trackback spam, at least anecdotally on my site. https://snarfed.org/wordpress-spam-statistics-comments-pingbacks-trackbacks
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Loqi
[Ryan Barrett] WordPress spam statistics: comments, pingbacks, trackbacks
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gRegorLove
Interesting
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@altsalt
Just scored a coveted $1 ticket @BoltBus for returning from @LFNW! Now to nail down these @IndieWebCamp details before booking my departure.
(twitter.com/_/status/849368096989208577)
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snarfed
actually, GWG, i'd say semantic linkbacks is missing from the webmention plugin :P
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[chrisaldrich]
Also the spam problem would put pressure on other interesting indieweb type use cases, particularly for privacy, audience, and others.
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snarfed
and fixes for the bug(s?) that renders replies as "This Article was mentioned on ..."
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GWG
snarfed, that is what I thought you would say
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[chrisaldrich]
snarfed: that's what kicked off the original topic. ?
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snarfed
backs away slowly
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aaronpk
what will it take to merge the plugins?
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GWG
aaronpk, in a good way or bad way?
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aaronpk
there is a bad way?
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GWG
Bad way, ten minutes.
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snarfed
do that, then iterate it toward good way?
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aaronpk
smallsteps++
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Loqi
smallsteps has 1 karma
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[chrisaldrich]
I suspect a lot of us would start using it... ?
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GWG
snarfed, that would be a decision for the author, not a contributor.
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gRegorLove
The main issue is pfefferle doesn't want them together, right?
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gRegorLove
Why not a fork?
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GWG
No, the issue is that pfefferle thinks they don't belong together until the design is better
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aaronpk
is he doing anything towards improving the design so they can be merged?
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snarfed
eh design seems orthogonal to merging
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aaronpk
also that
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gRegorLove
One plugin is easier to fix design stuff in than two :)
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snarfed
anyway. if pfefferle is the blocker, no sense having a proxy argument w/o him
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GWG
snarfed, I respect pfefferle a lot, for the record
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GWG
I have been trying to work through the issues one by one.
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Loqi
gwg has 195 karma in this channel (213 overall)
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GWG
snarfed, I have a PR to move the Webmention source URL into comment meta. This would allow replies to be classified as comments without losing awareness that they are Webmentions
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GWG
That would be a nail in the coffin of theme compatibility.
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GWG
Semantic Linkbacks already changes Webmentions to type Comment when it is a reply. This just formalizes it.
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GWG
I could ramble about this all day. Maybe I need another post to lay it out
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[cleverdevil]
More posts!
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[cleverdevil]
They're so helpful to people like myself who want to understand better how to advocate for the right changes in WordPress ?
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[cleverdevil]
And for my WordPress people who are new to IndieWeb.
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GWG
I'm trying to move progressively farther from Core
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[kevinmarks]
Aaronpk - the federation isn't global. instance a only sees messages from instance B wh
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[kevinmarks]
When someone on a subscribes to that person on B
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[kevinmarks]
So "the whole known network" is different for each instance
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[kevinmarks]
(this is a good thing, BTW)
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aaronpk
that's what i would expect from something that publishes atom feeds and subscribes via pubsubhubbub
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KartikPrabhu
what is mastodon
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KartikPrabhu
what is mastodon
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Loqi
Mastodon is an open source implementation of a federated social network with several running instances that is compatible with GNU Social https://indieweb.org/Mastodon
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aaronpk
what i haven't been able to find docs on is how one instance subscribes to another. is it more than just a bunch of pubsubhubbub subscriptions to each user's atom feeds? i keep seeing references to something about an instance getting all updates from another instance
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[kevinmarks]
That's people being confused, I think
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[kevinmarks]
There is per instance blocking, after the shock image instances
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[kevinmarks]
The FAQ is poorly phrased
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@HackerEvents
IndieWebCamp on Saturday 04 November 10:00 @ Contentful (Germany) https://indiewebcamp.com/2017/Berlin
(twitter.com/_/status/849390846864707584)
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