#indieweb 2017-04-13

2017-04-13 UTC
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@ChrisAldrich Interested in open & #DecentralizedWeb? Registrations are now open for #IndieWeb Summit 2017 in Portland 6/24-25 https://2017.indieweb.org (twitter.com/_/status/852336977533964290)
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Loqi [superfeedr] " Interested in open & #DecentralizedWeb? Registrations are now open for #IndieWeb Summit 2017 in Portland 6/24-25 https://2017.indieweb.org " by Chris Aldrich on 2017-04-13 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/interested-in-open-decentralizedweb-registrations-are-now-open-for-indieweb
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tantek what is runkeeper
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Loqi RunKeeper is an exercise silo and native app for keeping track of running, biking and other physical activity https://indieweb.org/runkeeper
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GWG Hello, tantek
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tantek hello GWG
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tantek GWG, how is the morning of June 23rd in Portland for a half day leaders summit for you like we did last year?
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GWG I'm going to try to make it. I am off work this week, so have to talk to the boss next week
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GWG I enjoyed it a lot last year.
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GWG I hope to heat doesn't return
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@aegibson73 Almost forgot to post. I'm going to do this #indieweb thing no matter what. (https://known.aegibson.me/s/5DgvR) (twitter.com/_/status/852355219405058049)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Almost forgot to post. I'm going to do this #indieweb thing no matter what." by Aaron Gibson on 2017-04-13 https://known.aegibson.me/2017/almost-forgot-to-post-im-going-to-do-this-indieweb
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[eddie] aaronpk: do you use anything like Runkeeper for your exercise or is that manual tracking?
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Sharing what I watch..." by Jonathan LaCour on 2017-04-13 https://cleverdevil.io/2017/sharing-what-i-watch
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Sharing what I watch" https://cleverdevil.io/2017/sharing-what-i-watch
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[cleverdevil] Hooray for finishing experiments!
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Liked this tweet: Kevin Marks on Twitter: “Live now on This Week in Google with @leolaporte @jeffjarvis @gigastacey talking mastodon, gnusocial #indieweb and more”" by Scott Kingery on 2017-04-13 http://techlifeweb.com/15824-2/
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aaronpk [eddie]: i use Runkeeper when I go on runs, but everything else is my own gps app
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aaronpk what is Compass?
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Loqi Compass is a GPS tracking server, part of the p3k set of applications https://indieweb.org/Compass
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aaronpk that is the server side and I think it links to the iOS app too
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@benwerd The IndieWeb Summit is all about building and strengthening an independent social web. I'll be there. https://twitter.com/chrisaldrich/status/852336977533964290 (twitter.com/_/status/852378346822422528)
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@DanielNarey https://indieweb.org/creator (twitter.com/_/status/852390561499811842)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Comment on A New Way to “Know and Master Your Social Media Flow” by Charles ☕ Stanhope" by Charles ☕ Stanhope on 2017-04-13 http://boffosocko.com/2017/04/11/a-new-way-to-know-and-master-your-social-media-flow/#comment-34417
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martymcguire[m] [cleverdevil]++ congrats on the /watch implementation! Nice work making it a Known plugin, as well!
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Loqi cleverdevil has 23 karma in this channel (29 overall)
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[jeremycherfas] Anyone know whether Woodwind can import an OPML file, and if so how?
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[jeremycherfas] I guess not https://github.com/kylewm/woodwind/issues/7
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ben_thatmustbeme i was just about to look that up
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, wonder if i should move this to indieweb.org wiki https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/microformats2_network
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ben_thatmustbeme make a chart of every indieweb software, then a second of other social web apps etc,
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ben_thatmustbeme with checkboxes for mf2 publishing, webmention sending, webmention receiving / mf2 parsing, micropub support, websub
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Loqi [superfeedr] "More great advocacy for the #indieweb from @chrisaldrich. One of the things I have a hard time wrapping my head around is the different ways" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-04-12 https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2017/more-great-advocacy-for-the-indieweb-from-chrisaldrich-one-of
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[jeremycherfas] ben_thatmustbeme I suspect you would spend all you time maintining it.
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ben_thatmustbeme well, ideally the indieweb section people can add their own projects to
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ben_thatmustbeme its more about having a single view of what software supports what features
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ben_thatmustbeme as a goal for like 'these are the things to make PRs against'
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ben_thatmustbeme what is indieweb network?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "indieweb network" yet. Would you like to create it?
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ben_thatmustbeme indieweb network is the set of all software and sites that support indieweb federation protocols
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Loqi ok
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[kevinmarks] woodwind has been down again for a while
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miklb fwiw, nextcloud/news allows for opml importing and cleverdevil wrote a micropub plugin to use Quill
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[kevinmarks] and silo.pub's certificate has expired
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voxpelli miklb: OPML one-time imports or continuous imports?
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miklb I assume one time. I was only using it to import from my FeedWrangler opml
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voxpelli likes the concept of continuous OPML imports/subscriptions, so one can keep a subscribe list in sync between multiple places, would also enable a POSSE-approach to subscription lists, by converting an XFN-list to a OPML-file
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miklb yes, that would be nice. I've been thinking I was going to put mine in a git repo, but some kind of automation would be nice
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[jeremycherfas] Not quite ready for NextCloud ?
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miklb since nextcloud has ability to have plugins, I wonder if one could be written to check for updates to an opml
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@keithjgrant @SaraSoueidan @meyerweb @beep /me gets out his “This is why we need the indieweb” drum ? (twitter.com/_/status/852521627870998529)
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@manuelpueyo Starting my own web presence following #indieweb philosophies. When is the next @HwcBrussels @rMdes_ http://manuelpueyo.tech/blog/ (twitter.com/_/status/852522596201639938)
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ben_thatmustbeme got it started, needs a lot more data filled in, and i'm sure there are lots of other software people can add
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ben_thatmustbeme https://indieweb.org/indieweb_network
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ben_thatmustbeme and a lot of stuff i don't have time to look up at the moment
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aaronpk What's the difference between single user and multi user?
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aaronpk Do you mean single user as in there is only one person using it (like p3k) or
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i was stuggling on how to organize it
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ben_thatmustbeme maybe native indieweb vs non-native?
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ben_thatmustbeme i wanted to make sure we put Known in a category with Mastodon and Diaspora as they are much wider deployed projects
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ben_thatmustbeme vs InkBlot where its single-user and one deploy, me
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[kevinmarks] OPML brings back memories - one of the early microformat ideas was XOXO as an HTML representation of OPML like data http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
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Loqi XOXO 1.0: Extensible Open XHTML Outlines
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Thanks to @nxd4n@mastodon.social, this toot was posted automatically from my Known website. Or as the #IndieWeb cool kids like to say: I'm now POSSEing my" by Sebastian Kippe on 2017-04-13 https://updates.kip.pe/2017/thanks-to-nxd4nmastodonsocial-this-toot-was-posted-automatically-from-my
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ben_thatmustbeme Woah, cool
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@kevinmarks We talked about Mastodon, OStatus, GnuSocial WebSub at 1hr17m35s into TWiG: https://twit.tv/shows/this-week-in-google/episodes/400 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp6cD0mHIWw&feature=youtu.be&t=1h17m35s #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/852527868668252160)
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ben_thatmustbeme Just listened on the train this morning KevinMarks
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voxpelli what is friendly?
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Loqi IndieWeb friendly refers to online services interoperating well with the indieweb by supporting open indieweb formats, protocols, as well as enabling users to transition to their own indieweb sites https://indieweb.org/friendly
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: ^ maybe link to that in regards to eg. Mastodon and such?
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voxpelli not sure what software to add to the single user section? should we add WordPress, Jekyll etc there?
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: would you be okay with rephrasing that page to be a list of IndieWeb friendly silos and platforms?
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ben_thatmustbeme totally, go for it
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ben_thatmustbeme i am up to anyone adding whatever they think makes sense there, i'm just trying to get a list of A) indieweb friendly software / services and what features they support, and B) a list of things that are next to add. I have been going through trying to add MF2 to everything as best I can first, so now Friendica, HubZilla, Mastodon, and GnuSocial (someone else did that one) all publish mf2
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voxpelli hmm, noticed the Social WG page now
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voxpelli I generally dislike such lists as they are a good fit for software similar to silos, but are not such a good fit for the more modular approach that we have here in the IndieWeb community
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voxpelli So the lists in themselves somewhat promote a specific project structure
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voxpelli Eg. my https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ can make any page receive WebMentions, but isn't really comparable to Known, Mastodon, Twitter etc in any meaningful way
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voxpelli Similarly Jekyll isn't either really comparable to Known, Mastodon, Twitter etc, but when combined with my WebMention endpoint the two gets a comparable set of features
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voxpelli What is application?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "application" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[kevinmarks] do we want a list of things that have refused mf2 PR's ?
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KartikPrabhu [kevinmarks]: negative framing ?
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ben_thatmustbeme maybe just adding them to the list at the bottom with a 'Refused' and a link instead of just saying No Support
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[kevinmarks] https://github.com/scripting/myWordEditor/pull/1
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't really think it makes sense to list things that haven't had updates in over 2 years though [kevinmarks], looks more like a dead project really
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KartikPrabhu updates don't seem like a good measure
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KartikPrabhu I haven't updated anything on my site in 2 years too
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ben_thatmustbeme what is app.net?
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Loqi App.net (ADN) was a microblogging silo similar to Twitter for posting notes of up to 256 [1] characters in length https://indieweb.org/App.net
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't see anything on that page about the shutdown
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snarfed you all probably already know about these other existing lists, but just in case:
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snarfed http://indieweb.org/tools
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snarfed https://indieweb.org/projects
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snarfed https://webmention.net/implementation-reports/
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snarfed https://micropub.rocks/implementation-reports/
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ben_thatmustbeme that /projects page is insanely long, which is why it needs a table really
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aaronpk i think the goal of ben's page is to list software that can be someone's personal website vs the list of all tools like webmention.herokuapp.com and such
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voxpelli yeah, but but one of the strengths with the indieweb is that the plurality of us makes it so that most things can be made either indieweb friendly or fully indieweb:ish
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voxpelli so it kind of gives the wrong impression when I see p3k, but not WordPress or Jekyll, and then thinks that I have to switch my site to some kind of new tech
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aaronpk oh yeah and upcoming isn't a personal site
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aaronpk also...add jekyll and wordpress to the table?
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voxpelli with eg. OStatus the need to change ones site would in practice be somewhat true and with eg. Diaspora it was completely true, but with us, there's often no need
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voxpelli aaronpk: but Jekyll and WordPress supports nothing and everything – out of the box nothing, but they can all be made to support everything, but in the case of Jekyll, that's not thanks to Jekyll but mostly thanks to tools that can be more or less applied to all sites, static or non-static
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aaronpk but yeah, these kinds of lists in general are never complete and always going to be somewhat misleading
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voxpelli yeah, and it now says so in the summary and refers to the individual spec pages for complete lists of projects for those specs + mentions the problem of fitting some projects into the lists
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ben_thatmustbeme it would be good to have them but the "Yes" would need to mention what plugins / addons are needed
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ben_thatmustbeme Jekll and WordPress that is
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voxpelli yeah, would be good – if nothing else it gives some perspective on things
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ben_thatmustbeme Upcoming.org isn't a personal posting site, hmm
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, the idea is to get an overview of everything
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ben_thatmustbeme I like the alternate specs bit listed
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ben_thatmustbeme almost feel like its more of a general "state of the social web" type list that way
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ben_thatmustbeme it gets really messy with friendica as they have tried adding just about everything as i understand
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[kevinmarks] I tried to explain the spec stuff on TWiG. Not sure i was successful
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[kevinmarks] maybe I need a post?
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ben_thatmustbeme couldn't hurt i suppose
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voxpelli a core part of indieweb also feels like the fact that that we are driven by principles, not tech, so every tech can be labeled as indieweb, just with a different degree of controversy, so listing alternative techs feels good (especially OStatus, which maps so well to IndieWeb)
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[cleverdevil] Good morning, IndieWeb ?
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aaronpk good morning!
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Loqi morning!
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sknebel morning!
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@cleverdevil Great post, @chrisaldrich! Thanks for summarizing so nicely why #IndieWeb is important. (https://cleverdevil.io/s/5SOrm) (twitter.com/_/status/852557293619212288)
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GWG Morning
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@jkphl @xandruCea Wie schaut's eigentlich aus, bist du dabei auf'm #IndieWebCamp am 20.-21. Mai, oder allgemein mal zum Homebrew Website Club? (twitter.com/_/status/852561627669045248)
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[cleverdevil] So, @voxpelli and miklb, Nextcloud News has a REST API that allows you to add, delete, move, and refresh feeds at will. You could pretty easily use this to do OMPL syncs like you mentioned earlier.
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@xandruCea Signed up for the #indiewebcamp from 20.05 - 21.05 in Nuremberg! Thx for introducing it to me @jkphl! :) #indiedev… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/852569698571104257 (twitter.com/_/status/852569698571104257)
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@xandruCea Signed up for the #indiewebcamp 20. - 21.05 in Nuremberg! Thx for introducing it to me @jkphl! :)… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/852570227929960450 (twitter.com/_/status/852570227929960450)
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@jkphl @xandruCea Yay! \o/ Next step: Log into the guest list http://indieweb.org/2017/Nuremberg/Guest_List via #IndieAuth and add yourself to the list. (twitter.com/_/status/852570857339842560)
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@thursdayb .@gblock @aaronpk I added @dotnetfringe and @indiewebcamp in the latest update! (twitter.com/_/status/852575272243052545)
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@xandruCea My first #IndieAuth! Added myself as participant inside the wiki! https://indieweb.org/2017/Nuremberg/Guest_List#Participants Am I done @jkphl ? :)… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/852576790862323712 (twitter.com/_/status/852576790862323712)
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[cleverdevil] Just had a really great call with Frank, the founder of ownCloud (now at Nextcloud)
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[cleverdevil] Discussed Indieweb in detail, and how we could make Nextcloud play nicely with Micropub, Webmention, and Indieauth (amongst other ideas).
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[cleverdevil] (He mentioned that he knows @tantak from his time in the w3c).
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[cleverdevil] (errr, tantek)
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[eddie] That’s awesome! Was he receptive?
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[cleverdevil] Yes, very very receptive.
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[eddie] cleverdevil++ That’s awesome!
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Loqi cleverdevil has 24 karma in this channel (30 overall)
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[cleverdevil] We are going to set up a weekly call to discuss how to work together.
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aaronpk awesome!
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[eddie] cleverdevil: Update regarding HumanAPI, Apple Health, Google Fit, MyFitnessPal, Striiv and Garmin are all “Health+” Data Sources which require monthly payments to HumanAPI
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[eddie] So I think that option has disappeared for “OwnYourHealth” ideas
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[cleverdevil] Oh well, that's a shame ?
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[eddie] It really is ?
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[eddie] I liked the idea because it would allow people who don’t use Apple Health to use it as well
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@ChrisAldrich Thrilled to be able to POSSE posts from @WithKnown to Mastodon now courtesy of @nxd4n using https://github.com/danito/KnownMastodon #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/852584501272342528)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Thrilled to be able to POSSE posts from @WithKnown to Mastodon now courtesy of @nxd4n using https://github.com/danito/KnownMastodon #indieweb" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-04-13 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/thrilled-to-be-able-to-posse-posts-from-withknown-to
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@davezatz true. All my tweet get pulled into a WordPress site so I don’t lose anything. #indieweb" by Scott Kingery on 2017-04-13 http://techlifeweb.com/15843-2/
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@TechLifeWeb @davezatz true. All my tweet get pulled into a WordPress site so I don’t lose anything. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/852590556924522500)
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@cleverdevil Excellent talk with @fkarlitschek of @nexcloud this AM re: enabling people to own their own data! #indieweb… https://cleverdevil.io/2017/excellent-talk-with-fkarlitschek-of-nexcloud-this-am-re-enabling (twitter.com/_/status/852595009350246401)
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GWG Afternoon
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GWG I'm trying to figure out the properties of a post type(or kind in my case), in order to lay them out in a structure
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ben_thatmustbeme hey GWG
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ben_thatmustbeme what do you mean?
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tantek catches up on this morning
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tantek reviews the lists debates
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: FWIW I'd say keep the "_networks" list on the SWWG wiki focused on the same kinds of things that the ActivityPub_ equivalent page does. It's ok that that SWWG *_networks page is a subset of things that support indieweb friendly protocols and such.
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tantek and voxpelli I agree with you also - that our lists here on indieweb.org should be more inclusive and encouraging of modular approaches. so let's do both
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tantek also agree with KartikPrabhu's rhetorical question, no need to add things as "refused", because that's pessimistic, whereas it's better to frame as "not yet"
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tantek projects change, people change
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@gblock @thursdayb @aaronpk @dotnetfringe @indiewebcamp great, thanks! (twitter.com/_/status/852600015075786752)
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GWG ben_thatmustbe: I am trying to come up with an array of properties to set to teach my code what the post types are and how they behave and what terms are used in them(Terms like Like, Reply, etc.
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tantek why good, consistent, clear, predictable UX matters: https://twitter.com/meyerweb/status/852519146319486976
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@meyerweb @beep @SaraSoueidan What bothers me is sometimes the ”Replying to” line shows up, and sometimes it doesn’t. So I’m always a little unsure if a tweet is a reply. (twitter.com/_/status/852519146319486976)
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tantek GWG - don't. Be lazy. Rather, don't spend the extra effort to "come up with", just map h-entry properties 1:1
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tantek that way as the properties grow in the future, there is a clear development path forward
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snarfed lazy++
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Loqi lazy has 1 karma in this channel (4 overall)
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tantek if you try to "come up with" something more clever, then you'll have to spend time doing this whole exercise every time new post kinds/types emerge
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snarfed yagni++
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Loqi yagni has 1 karma in this channel (3 overall)
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tantek snarfed, indeed. I think laziness is underappreciated for efficiency.
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GWG tantek, I am trying to make it so I don't have to do that by not having to modify fifteen places at once
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ben_thatmustbeme acronyms++
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Loqi acronyms has 1 karma
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tantek GWG - then just keep track of an "h-entry" structure in all those fifteen places
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GWG I also want to map mf2 to WordPress properties, similar to what snarfed does.
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tantek and then you can modify your h-entry structure in one place
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GWG tantek, in my world, the post is an h-entry
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tantek from all the historical discussion, it's not clear to me that the "WordPress properties" make any sense really
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GWG I need to write this out, I think, to explain
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tantek GWG, then just keep a flat list of properties
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tantek in each of those 15 places
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tantek and let that flat list grow over time
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tantek anyway, this also sounds more like dev/plumbing talk, so -> #indieweb-dev please
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tantek I'd like to go back to this point from @meyerweb: https://twitter.com/meyerweb/status/852519146319486976
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@meyerweb @beep @SaraSoueidan What bothers me is sometimes the ”Replying to” line shows up, and sometimes it doesn’t. So I’m always a little unsure if a tweet is a reply. (twitter.com/_/status/852519146319486976)
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tantek getting "Reply" to work, as a user action, has always been a challenge
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tantek (nevermind all the under the hood plumbing and properties and such)
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tantek just the UX and user flow
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tantek wow this screenshot is a pretty good example how Twitter's "Replying to" UX is busted: https://twitter.com/meyerweb/status/852519876208066560
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@meyerweb @beep @SaraSoueidan Case in point: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9TCTWIUMAAI1SC.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/852519876208066560)
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gRegorLove The new replying-to on twitter is awful
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aaronpk i haven't had to experience that yet because I only post from quill ?
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tantek aaronpk - yeah I dare you to reply to @meyerweb saying that ;)
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tantek also it's ironic that Twitter, which kind of innovated reply-contexts in general, would be the ones to screw this up
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Comment on by Scott Kingery" by Scott Kingery on 2017-04-13 http://techlifeweb.com/15840-2/#comment-125477
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aaronpk lol
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tantek wat
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Do you include @-names in the text of you rnotes? They might be getting messed up on syndication. I've had Twitter API add names multiple times thanks to canoes
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gRegorLove *your notes
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aaronpk hm i should check my twitter copies
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gRegorLove Though maybe not with silo.pub
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aaronpk looks fine https://twitter.com/aaronpk/with_replies
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gRegorLove Not sure what's different with Bridgy
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aaronpk I send the @-names in the tweet text to the api via silo.pub
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gRegorLove Yeah, stuff like this happens for me: https://gregorlove.com/2017/03/jdragz-girlvsplanet-indiana_mama-that-works/ vs https://twitter.com/gRegorLove/status/845307170543587330
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@gRegorLove @jdragz @girlvsplanet @indiana_mama @girlvsplanet @indiana_mama That works for me. (twitter.com/_/status/845307170543587330)
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] @jdragz @girlvsplanet @indiana_mama That works for me.
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gRegorLove I'm thinking of just leaving out @-names in my original, let Twitter API handle it.
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aaronpk huh
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aaronpk and that's via bridgy publish?
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[cleverdevil] aaronpk as I've been more heavily using Quill, I've noticed that some reposts and likes of Twitter URLs show up funky in Known (tracking HEAD).
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[cleverdevil] Case in point: http://www.theverge.com/2017/4/13/15292416/tesla-model-3-release-date-unveiling-elon-musk-electric-car
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@Editor_Page @IndieWebCampDE Schade ist alles so weit weg (twitter.com/_/status/852610185084456960)
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[cleverdevil] If you repost that link from Quill -> Known, it ends up pulling a bunch of stuff into the title (including some raw markup).
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aaronpk huh
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aaronpk all quill sends is the URL
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[cleverdevil] Also, certain characters seem to give it problems -> https://cleverdevil.io/2017/ben-werdmuller-on-twitter-the-indieweb-summit-is-all-about
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[cleverdevil] Ah, sounds like a bug report for Known, then!
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aaronpk it must be trying to get that info from the page
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[cleverdevil] nods
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Yeah, Bridgy Publish
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snarfed gRegorLove: you're on the right track. i recommend letting bridgy publish handle replies instead of adding leading@-mentions yourself. twitter generally doesn't need them now, but bridgy is conservative and leaves them in your text if they're already there
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gRegorLove snarfed: Sounds good. Is Bridgy using a different API version than silo.pub?
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snarfed twitter doesn't have different api versions to choose from (afaik)
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gRegorLove Huh. Odd
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snarfed oh wait but yes, you do opt into the new extended tweet handling in the api. so yes bridgy does that and silo.pub probably doesn't
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gRegorLove Gotcha
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gRegorLove That explains why this works: https://aaronparecki.com/2017/04/04/10/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] @alastairtouw @slackhq @indiewebcamp It's a web gateway too! http://indieweb.org/irc/2017-04-04#t1491356630690 IRC <-> Slack <-> Web <-> ?...
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snarfed oh, and docs :P https://brid.gy/about#reply-mention , https://brid.gy/about#extended-tweets
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gRegorLove snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 259 karma in this channel (266 overall)
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[cleverdevil] !tell chrisaldrich I fixed those issues with my Watching plugin, I think. Thanks for testing it! Let me know if it works for you, and I'll close the ticket out.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek snarfed, there's still something buggy in the overall way Bridgy Publish is POSSEing to twitter in that whatever it is doing (Twitter API, options etc.) results in prefixing with redundant @-names that are already in the reply.
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tantek POSSEing *replies* to tweet to Twitter in particular
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tantek AFAIK neither silo.pub nor e.g. Falcon have this problem (prefixing with redundant @-names that are already in the reply)
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tantek and they're both calling the Twitter API as well
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snarfed tantek: have you read https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/742#issuecomment-293411480 ?
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tantek reads
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tantek snarfed, canoe visiblity is not the issue, but rather profile visibility
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snarfed sorry, i don't follow
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tantek it's not Loqi's fault that is
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snarfed ok...?
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tantek Loqi is returning the literal text tweeted, which shows the duplicate prefixing that has occured
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tantek that's undesirable beahvior
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tantek because the goal of including @-names deliberately in the message (not at the front) is to have the reply show up *publicly* among all your tweets on your profile
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snarfed i'm not convinced you really read and grokked the link i posted :P
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tantek snarfed, the canoe / new UI is a red herring
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tantek this was a pre-existing problem
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tantek and continues to be
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tantek the new reply UI just muddied it
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snarfed yes, there have been bugs with this before, which afaik i fixed
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aaronpk New slack feature today! https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/201864558-Set-your-Slack-status-and-availability
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snarfed i believe the new problem *is* due to different tools of ours not handling the new extended tweets
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aaronpk next they'll make an app to collect all your status changes into a timeline
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snarfed in particular, the new extended tweets changed the definition of "literal tweet text"
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tantek snarfed this: "but my note is aimed at the general public and not just at the author of the tweet I'm replying to. "
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snarfed yes, i understand what you're saying
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tantek that's the problem, whatever is causing the prefixing is blocking that
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tantek erroneously IMO
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snarfed old api clients like loqi, falcon, and silo.pub aren't handling the new twitter API and data format changes, so they're incorrectly rendering tweets as including those prefix @-mentions
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snarfed which aren't actually part of the tweeted text, as shown in the screenshot in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/742#issuecomment-293411480
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aaronpk Loqi is using the extended entities in the API
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tantek snarfed, they're not rendering tweets
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snarfed aaronpk: it's not extended entities, it's extended_tweet. different. see https://dev.twitter.com/overview/api/upcoming-changes-to-tweets
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aaronpk Oh
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tantek or rather except for Loqi
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tantek the point here is a failure to obey user intention
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snarfed tantek: right. loqi is. silo.pub and falcon are using the old publishing API. bridgy is using the new one.
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snarfed (er, loqi is rendering tweets)
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tantek twitter users already know: "put @-mention at front of reply, only shows to people who follow both, put @-mention in middle of reply, shows to everyone that follows me"
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tantek so they (we) are already authoring replies to tweets accordingly with that intention of audience
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snarfed i'll reiterate, bridgy publish is *not* adding explicit leading @-mentions itself any more. ever.
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tantek it is indirectly by the API that it is calling
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tantek and thus changing the intended audience
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tantek that's the failure
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snarfed it's not actually changing the intended audience! not in twitter itself, or in other current clients.
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tantek yes it is changing in twitter itself because those tweets no longer show up on a person's profile
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snarfed look at the screenshot! that was the bug example, and it doesn't have leading @-mentions.
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snarfed ok. i think i understand what you're saying.
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tantek I saw the screenshot - that's about UI design, not audience visibility
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snarfed so this isn't actually a recent change in bridgy publish. when bridgy publish sees a twitter u-in-reply-to, it interprets that as a reply. before, it would add leading @-mentions if they weren't already there, since twitter required them for a reply. now, it doesn't add them explicitly, but does tell twitter to make it a reply.
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snarfed ie, when you give bridgy publish a twitter reply, it's *always* limited audience in this way. that's not new.
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aaronpk That seems correct
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snarfed (tantek sorry it took me a while to understand your real point. it was subtle, and i'm slow :P)
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tantek I disagree since there's been a clear user-visible regression
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tantek both Falcon and silo.pub set the in-reply-to-tweet-id
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tantek and everything works 100% as expected
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tantek when the user leads their reply with @-name, the audience is restricted to the intersection of their followers, and the tweet doesn't show up on their profile by default
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tantek when the user puts the @-name in the middle of their tweet (not at the front), the audience is all of the user's followers and it shows up on their profile
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snarfed sure, i understand. bridgy hasn't allowed that option though. it's always also added leading @-reply to the in-reply-to user if it wasn't already in the text
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snarfed that's maybe a key difference between it and falcon/silo.pub
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gRegorLove tries to catch up
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snarfed there have definitely been bugs, and probably suboptimal UX and docs, but i don't believe [intended] behavior has changed
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tantek by changing API calls, Bridgy broke the "...if it wasn't already in the text"
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tantek that's the point
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tantek nope, there are several people who were surprised by this past few days
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snarfed ahhhh i see. very good point. yes that actually sounds true.
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tantek the goal is to be able to POSSE a reply that threads correctly AND still goes to ALL your followers and shows up on your profile
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tantek the new Twitter API or options or whatever screws that up and thus it's unsuitable for use
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snarfed right, understood.
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snarfed i honestly suspect this is bigger than bridgy though. if you replied on twitter.com before the new UX and got rid of the leading @-mention, it would change to public audience. now it won't.
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gRegorLove Yeah, there's no way to do a .@ reply now, to reply but also be visible on your profile.
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aaronpk ?
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tantek snarfed, Twitter's UI regressions don't bother me, they just incentivize more indieweb use
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gRegorLove If I understand correctly
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tantek gRegorLove: in the Twitter *UI*
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tantek but frankly it still works *just fine* via silo.pub (or in Falcon)
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tantek snarfed, it's not just me pointing out that Twitter screwed up their UI with this, e.g. Eric Meyer: https://twitter.com/meyerweb/status/852519146319486976 (and others)
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@meyerweb @beep @SaraSoueidan What bothers me is sometimes the ”Replying to” line shows up, and sometimes it doesn’t. So I’m always a little unsure if a tweet is a reply. (twitter.com/_/status/852519146319486976)
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gRegorLove I don't follow most of this, but as long as snarfed does, cool :)
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tantek I expect Twitter to eventually notice and fix this
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tantek meanwhile, our indieweb tools should keep doing the right thing and continuing to meet user expectations
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snarfed tantek: fwiw falcon and silo.pub only do what you want because they're using the old API. if twitter sticks with the changes, they'll eventually turn off the old API.
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snarfed we'll see
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snarfed tantek: do you have an example of a recent tweet that's a reply, but appears to the public audience?
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tantek looks
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snarfed thx. would be helpful.
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tantek I think aaronpk does with silo.pub because that's what he uses all the time
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tantek I tweet less often, and reply even less often
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snarfed and thanks for your patience explaining this point!
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gRegorLove Is https://aaronparecki.com/2017/04/04/10/ an example?
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] @alastairtouw @slackhq @indiewebcamp It's a web gateway too! http://indieweb.org/irc/2017-04-04#t1491356630690 IRC <-> Slack <-> Web <-> ?...
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tantek audience stuff is so subtle, and this is just dealing with public examples!
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tantek snarfed, no problem at all, thanks for your patience too!
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tantek this is going to get even harder with private / limited audience scope stuff
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tantek so we're going to need all the audience related patience we can practice :)
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snarfed gRegorLove: i don't think so. that tweet doesn't show up on https://twitter.com/aaronpk
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tantek gRegorLove: any example on aaronparecki.com would have to NOT start with "@"
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snarfed i honestly wonder if we can find an example. i know the new changes mean you can start a *non*-reply with an @-mention, but i'm not sure they mean you can have a reply show up to the public audience
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snarfed (without e.g. RTing it)
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bignose <URL: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/blog/dialup_webs_inventor_online_security_and_rights>
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miklb eyes GWG pushing to a branch & gets itchy to switch and test
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GWG miklb: All the functionality changes are minor bug fixes and enhancements. Nothing spectacular. The big changes were refactoring to make changes easier.
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miklb GWG mostly curious to see if what ever is not working on my production might be fixed :-)
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GWG The Retrieve stuff? Haven't gotten to it yet, but it will be in this branch.
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miklb gotcha. Thans
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miklb thanks
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GWG If I can do anything
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miklb ah ha! I reproduced it locally.
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miklb If WP url != Site URL I get the error
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miklb WP is in a subdirectory, but the site URL is root
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miklb so maybe is nginx conf issue
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GWG That would explain it
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snarfed filed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/743 . thanks again tantek et al!
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miklb if anyone has a bullet proof nginx conf for WP with the wordpress files living in a subdirectory, I'd love to compare what I have.
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GWG I haven't updated mine in too long
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Comment on @Mentions by What Chris Aldrich is doing Now" by What Chris Aldrich is doing Now on 2017-04-13 http://boffosocko.com/mentions/#comment-34420
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Comment on About Chris Aldrich by What Chris Aldrich is doing Now" by What Chris Aldrich is doing Now on 2017-04-13 http://boffosocko.com/about/#comment-34421
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Comment on ? Margin Call (Lionsgate, 2012) by What Chris Aldrich is doing Now" by What Chris Aldrich is doing Now on 2017-04-13 http://boffosocko.com/2017/04/08/margin-call-lions-gate-2012/#comment-34422
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Comment on ? Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House (RKO Radio Pictures, 1948) by What Chris Aldrich is doing Now" by What Chris Aldrich is doing Now on 2017-04-13 http://boffosocko.com/2017/04/09/mr-blandings-builds-his-dream-house-rko-radio-pictures-1948/#comment-34423
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GWG is resisting making comments
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tantek the chilling effect of superfeedr ;)
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tantek snarfed I haven't forgotten
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tantek concocting an example now
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snarfed yay thanks
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snarfed if the solution is to switch back to the old api, i'll be...torn :P
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tantek here goes nothing
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tantek snarfed it worked! https://twitter.com/t shows the "Replying to @aaronpk" new UI thing LOL
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tantek is very pleased with his little Falcon right now
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snarfed ah nice, thanks!
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snarfed looks at it in the api
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DeathInJune anyone knows a folk channel?
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snarfed i suspect if i used the new api to create the exact same tweet, it wouldn't show up on your profile like that
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tantek snarfed, I wonder if we were using different APIs to begin with
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tantek mine NEVER made twitter add the @-mention in front
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tantek EVER
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tantek even if my tweet text lacked the necessary @-mention to thread
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snarfed before the new api, bridgy added that leading @-mention itself
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tantek newapi--
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Loqi newapi has -1 karma
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snarfed oh wait sorry no, bridgy only added it if it wasn't already in the text
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snarfed so in that case, we were doing the same thing, until bridgy switched to the new api
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tantek right, Falcon would just fail to thread because the Twitter API didn't thread if the necessary @-name was missing
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tantek I decided that was better than altering the expectation of what text would get tweeted / truncated
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tantek but could see it work either way
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tantek aaronpk you really should at least turn linebreaks into spaces instead of just dropping them in comments https://aaronparecki.com/2017/04/13/9/micropub-pr ?
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Micropub PR published today! ? https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/ This is the last step before REC status! We'd love your impl reports and feedback!...
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martymcguire[m] oh hey! i had an example of this twitter reply-but-i-meant-it-to-be-public behavior the other day in the bug i filed to bridgy
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GWG miklb: I just made a change that might help your problem.
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martymcguire[m] https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/742
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snarfed yup!
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martymcguire[m] sorry, just catching up on the convo
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tantek hey snarfed, while you're here, any chance of coming to IndieWeb Summit 2017-06-24…25?
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snarfed maybe! been thinking about it a bit
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GWG I could meet snarfed?
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GWG breaks out Indieweb Bingo Card
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tantek GWG, more like baseball cards
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tantek that snarfed card, it's a rare one ;)
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GWG tantek: I assume you've collected them all.
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tantek would make for a fun print project for sure
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tantek e.g. if somehow the RSVP info had enough to make a whole baseball card style layout
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tantek if we ever did a kickstarter type event, getting a set to hand out could be an extra kickstarter level
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tantek then you really would be trading baseball cards
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tantek even funnier if we shuffled who got whose cards, so you had to trade even just to get your own!
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GWG I don't think anyone wants the GWG Rookie Card.
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tantek I think you'd be surprised
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GWG I just never thought I was very photogenic.
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tantek more about the stats IMO
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tantek we'd have to ask shaners or someone more familiar with baseball cards to come up with a mapping from indieweb project / indiemark things to the equivalents that could be displayed in baseball stats style
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tantek and you've certainly produced a lot
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tantek how many webmentions have you pitched? have you caught? ;)
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GWG I really need to write more content.
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tantek welcome to the club :)
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GWG I keep talking myself out of it.
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tantek GWG, try something simple like a /100days project
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miklb WordCamp Miami had cards for the speakers from what I've read
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GWG tantek: I might try one.
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tantek like I'm doing https://indieweb.org/100days#100_Days_of_Positive_Posts and it's really forced me to think or do something positive every day and then write about it (sometimes a day or two later)
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tantek it's been harder than I expected
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GWG For now, I spent part of the day making tweaks to make Micropub work better with Post Kinds for both myself and others. I implemented a basic version of your post discovery algorithm
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tantek I think that would be great if you posted even little things like that on your site, and linked ot the thing you improved
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GWG If it works, then I probably will. I haven't tested it.
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GWG There are about five other things on my list...
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GWG https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-post-kinds/issues
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martymcguire[m] GWG, totally agree with tantek. I've been doing ~weekly posts with my site updates: https://martymcgui.re/tag/site-update/
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martymcguire[m] [jonathanprozzi] and i have challenged each other to do at least one concrete site update a week and post about it
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GWG That H-Feed to RSS converter...
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GWG Anyone have the URL?
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GWG My feed reader isn't H-Feed compatible yet, and the developer scares me.
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martymcguire[m] we keep each other accountable with good-natured ribbing
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snarfed GWG: https://granary-demo.appspot.com/?input=html
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@ChrisAldrich @louisgray I hope that open W3C specs like Webmention and Micropub can help to turn the tide. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/852649788348796929)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@louisgray I hope that open W3C specs like Webmention and Micropub can help to turn the tide. #indieweb" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-04-13 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/louisgray-i-hope-that-open-w3c-specs-like-webmention-and
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GWG martymcguire[m]: You made me realize I don't have a setup for an audio post.
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GWG Of course, I just realized I didn't have video either, but...you are the reason I might want to have one.
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martymcguire[m] GWG: sweet! i think there are some fun weird futures to be explored with indieweb + audio and video
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@louisgray Movements like #indieweb and even @manton2's upcoming micro.blog are going to open things up again." by Chris Aldrich on 2017-04-13 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/louisgray-movements-like-indieweb-and-even-manton2s-upcoming-microblog-are
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@ChrisAldrich @louisgray Movements like #indieweb and even @manton2's upcoming http://micro.blog are going to open things up again. (twitter.com/_/status/852651106115231745)
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martymcguire[m] podcasts being the most basic thing for audio and short video posts like instagram/fb/vine (RP) being the most basic for video
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miklb GWG I switched to the 2.52 branch, but still getting the error. I do think it's an issue with nginx conf & using a subdirectory just haven't found a definitive answer on what it should be
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GWG I didn't push it yet
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GWG I changed how I generated the address
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miklb oh
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GWG I stopped for food
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miklb food good
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[eddie] https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T03QR2B2T-F4Z86EWFP/screenshot_2017-04-13_18.44.01.png?pub_secret=358884b5da&name=Screenshot 2017-04-13 18.44.01.png martymcguire[m] Sweet, the listen posts actually work pretty well falling back into just a normal mention with p-summary ?
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@kevinmarks @louisgray @ChrisAldrich Sites die. https://indieweb.org/site-deaths Protocols and open source endure. The web is antifragi… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/852653889174335488 (twitter.com/_/status/852653889174335488)
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@ChrisAldrich @louisgray If you want to take a peek at the bleeding edge again, there's some great stuff at the end of June: https://2017.indieweb.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/852654063372169220)
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[chrisaldrich] KevinMarks++ for fighting the good fight ?
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Loqi [chrisaldrich]: [cleverdevil] left you a message 2 hours, 27 minutes ago: I fixed those issues with my Watching plugin, I think. Thanks for testing it! Let me know if it works for you, and I'll close the ticket out.
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Loqi kevinmarks has 208 karma in this channel (271 overall)
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martymcguire[m] [eddie]: yeah! there's a balance there in showing what wm.io sends as a "name" vs "content" and it works well for your listen posts as well as chrisaldrich's
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[kevinmarks] Replying to problems on twitter https://twitter.com/quinnnorton/status/852093293219504128
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@quinnnorton @justkelly_ok oh, wait. that's interesting. is this a twitter fight arising out of an interface change? (twitter.com/_/status/852093293219504128)
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[kevinmarks] The way you do a .@ reply now is to reply, then retweet your own post.
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/847748105286041601
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@kevinmarks @eileentso @mikebutcher @azeem @ravmattu @kadhimshubber @mr_james_c @JoeScarboro @SteveLaitner @DreKoval @TheEuropas @MaybeCapital @paul_clarke @BetterCity @amarapatel @vgul @winjer @twehmeier @mediaczar @hare_brain @jbrazao @evilczar @GWR @atomico @ladyxtel @mk1969 @lynseybarber @axelheitmueller @ddunlop @4anya @matthewdeaners @john_field @jack @WhatsApp @Wendys @katie_martin_fx @RoyalMail @sainsburys @snackfight @meganamram @cjam @colettefahy_ @noahmp @LAYS @robmanuel @ConnorPM @hanelifou @designtaxi @highwaydebris @DDBSanFrancisco @FiveThirtyEight Then when your reply goes from very grey to less grey, hit the retweet button on it. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8POZZ7V0AI7gn7.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/847748105286041601)
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martymcguire[m] oh boy
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[chrisaldrich] glad I'm not in that canoe...
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miklb should rel=me links be in the h-card?
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miklb seems not, friends site parsed just fine on https://indiewebify.me
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GWG miklb: Pushed that minor change. Can you give a try. It changes how it pushes the API url
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miklb yep
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miklb OK, getting 403 forbidden now
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miklb googling says a mod_security issue, people disabling that to get it to work
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miklb GWG I do see that it is calling the URL without the subdirectory now, just miklb.dev/wp-json/
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