#indieweb 2017-04-30

2017-04-30 UTC
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KartikPrabhu "The revival of the return of the revenge of the silo"
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KartikPrabhu you need to have a subtitle to sell your Twitter show gRegorLove
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gRegorLove Hehe
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gRegorLove Internet Archive looking to ignore robots.txt more broadly: http://blog.archive.org/2017/04/17/robots-txt-meant-for-search-engines-dont-work-well-for-web-archives/
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aaronpk ?
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takyoji[m] Out of curiosity, how much has it been looked into for having the IndieWeb concept federate with GNU Social-based networks?
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aaronpk well, we already have pubsubhubbub in common
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aaronpk and most of the gnu social projects have microformats markup now, so their permalinks are machine readable now, like how when you drop a link to a gnusocial post in here Loqi expands it
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takyoji[m] and admittingly I'm only just starting to read into IndieWeb a little more. I'm assuming the concept to IndieWeb is by presenting the data through Microformats, which is then to be parsed, rather than solely providing a more machine-friendly format (not saying that Microformats are bad or anything)?
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KartikPrabhu what does "federate" mean as a verb?
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KartikPrabhu takyoji[m]: Indieweb bascially means that you post your stuff on your own site and use your own domain name as your identity
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takyoji[m] Perhaps I may be misusing the term, but my meaning behind the usage is of "to interoperate with"
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KartikPrabhu you can use microformts if you want or use something else to represent that data
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takyoji[m] So IndieWeb is primarily the name of the concept, not necessarily an explicit set of standards/protocols (whereas you're able to use any standard/protocol that makes sense with it)?
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aaronpk yes, and there is also a concerted effort around a few specs that we use to be able to talk to each other using our websites
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aaronpk but to that regard: https://indieweb.org/plurality
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GWG When will a webmention not have a source that is primarily an h-entry?
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aaronpk it could be an h-review, h-recipe, or something else
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GWG The current WordPress code always assumes an h-entry
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GWG I am trying to figure out how best to extend it for future use.
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KartikPrabhu webmention can be from any URL even without mf2
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I know. But I'm looking for use cases people currently are sending.
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aaronpk if my code doesn't find an h-entry that is in-reply-to my post, it shows up as a "mention"
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yeah same here
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aaronpk regardless of whether or not there was any mf2 on it
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GWG Already set up that way.
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GWG But the lack of sufficient other checks is why people are complaining that likes and such are ending up as mentions.
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GWG So I want to expand the definitions a bit.
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KartikPrabhu if there is a like-of it is a like, I don't see why the h-entry bit has to be expanded
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GWG That was the 'and such' part.
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aaronpk i look for a few specific properties of the post, regardless of type. i store published, author info, name and content.
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aaronpk if there is a name, it shows up differently
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KartikPrabhu yeah I don;t think I check h-* at all
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KartikPrabhu as in h-* type
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GWG I'm generalizing to look for the top level item that matches the source URL.and then determine what to do with it.
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miklb aaronpk KartikPrabhu that makes a lot of sense, I hadn't thought about it that way. Simplifies my perspective. ✔️
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Congratulations @t on 100 Days of Positive Posts! #100DoPP Thanks for making the world kinder and richer! #indieweb" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-04-30 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/congratulations-t-on-100-days-of-positive-posts-100dopp-thanks
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[chrisaldrich] tantek++ ^^
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Loqi tantek has 214 karma in this channel (334 overall)
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miklb GWG is there not an h-card widget in the IndieWeb plugin?
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miklb is see the rel=me but wondering if there's utility in having an h-card widget that can be dropped in with necessary markup.
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GWG miklb, it is in Syndication Links. I have been meaning to move it over.
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Indieweb adoption - how does a new way spread?" by James Duncan on 2017-04-27 https://colinwalker.blog/2017/04/27/indieweb-adoption-how-does-a-new-way-spread
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miklb GWG ah, ok. I opened a ticket for that.
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GWG miklb: The design of my h-card widget was never very good.
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GWG Working on flattening my microformats now
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miklb GWG then I may design one and submit a PR for the IndieWeb plugin, and if not accepted there, just leave it as a widget for my theme.
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GWG miklb: That's why I never moved it. It wasn't good enough.
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miklb OK, I hadn't looked at it yet.
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GWG Right now, I was looking at colinwalker's like of chrisaldrich's post using the debugging output I set up. It is showing the like-of property, but declaring it a mention.
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GWG Trying to figure out why
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miklb sure, not suggesting you shift gears. Started working on theme and solving simple way to add h-card came to mind.
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miklb GWG I just ask questions because I haven't been around for all discussions. Often times there are very good reasons a decision was made.
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GWG miklb: I am not bothered. I just really wish for a good and flexible design. A weakness of mine
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[colinwalker] @GWG Is that issue at my end?
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GWG It is finding the like-of property but declaring it a mention. Looking more closely.
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GWG That's why I built a way to output the results to debug the code
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[colinwalker] OK
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GWG Once this is finished, new extensions should be easier
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miklb https://github.com/adtac/commento
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Loqi [adtac] commento: A lightweight, open source, tracking-free comment engine alternative to Disqus
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tantek good morning #indieweb!
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aaronpk good morning!
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Loqi good morning!
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tantek aaronpk, I have small inkling of what you felt like on day 101 ;)
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aaronpk oh yeah! happy 100 days!
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tantek that was much harder than I expected
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schmarty tantek++ congrats on the 100 days!
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Loqi tantek has 215 karma in this channel (335 overall)
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GWG I was contemplating a 100 days of posting
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tantek you should do it! I learned a lot
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tantek perhaps even 100 days of positive posting ;)
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Loqi +1
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GWG tantek, I have to come up with rules that I can do. Not complicated ones
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GWG For example, is it posting anything or do I want to be more specific?
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GWG Do I want a mix of things?
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GWG I couldn't even do a location post while I was away
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tantek GWG, I suggest make it easier on yourself. so yes, posting anything. even just a short positive note.
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tantek original posts, not responses
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GWG I don't respond enough either
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tantek that's ok, start with original posts
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tantek I allowed myself a couple of flexibilities
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GWG Like?
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tantek 1. Posting past midnight was ok for the day
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tantek (technically after midnight is the next day)
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GWG I understand
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tantek 2. If I missed a day (or days), I would have to make up that day by posting something positive I did that specific day that I missed
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tantek I was able to do that because I keep a decent personal log and going back to it I was able to look back and pick either the most positive thing from a past day, or something simple & positive
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tantek GWG, example of #2 - literally my 100th day I had to catchup from day 95 (inclusive): http://tantek.com/2017/119/
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GWG Well, if I finish this project I'm working on today, I think I will draft up some rules and give it a shot.
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tantek nice
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tantek keep the rules simple so you can adjust as needed
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GWG My mind is still wrapped in trying to completely change Semantic Linkbacks to store mf2 properties, support slightly more complexity, and figure out why it is declaring likes as mentions.
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GWG And laundry
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[colinwalker] I did a write365 project in 2014 - a post a day for a year aiming for at least 300 words. It wasn't a positive posting thing, just doing 'something' every day. I missed 5 days due to illness so added them at the end. It was hard.
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tantek 365 is much harder than 100!
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[colinwalker] I kinda felt burnt out by the end
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tantek that's a good warning.
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tantek and good reason to choose # days and project topic modestly something hopefully you can sustain without feeling burnt out!
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tantek 300 words is quite a bit, not sure I could do that for a week much less a year!
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tantek aaronpk, are you still "on break" from 100 days projects? or do you have some "large" projects that you are working on instead?
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tantek I'm considering whether to take a break, or to immediately start another 100 days project
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aaronpk i'm focusing on larger projects right now, and also leaving time for travel coming up
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aaronpk i'll be out of town for almost 2 weeks for indiewebcamps germany!
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tantek good point! travel makes it harder for sure
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GWG I am still recovering from my trip.
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GWG I was thinking of just posting anything being the goal.
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miklb yes! Use your site more, and I think you'll find you will begin to get clarity on what YOU want to work on.
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GWG That is my hope. Post UI is hard
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tantek it is!
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GWG Either way, I want to finish the current thing
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tantek I want to do a more ambitious 100 Days project, and yet even "just" 100DoPP was challenging
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GWG tantek, how about a week of x?
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GWG Not every project is 100 worthy
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tantek GWG, that might be more reasonable. or pick any other # of days
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GWG Exactly
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tantek GWG, I think part of it is about persistence and seeing if you can make something a habit
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GWG As I tell my trainees, you have to walk before you can run
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miklb is still in the crawling phase
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GWG I have a tendency to dream big
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GWG I have ideas I may not get to for ages or ever. I try to achieve something though
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miklb same. I just get stuck in 2nd gear between dream and do. But I'm slowly shifting.
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GWG miklb, just like your theme, I hope to release something people like
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miklb this might be the 1st time I have worked on something that wasn't just for me that I shared (as the only person working on it that is.) Different approach necessary to say the least.
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[eddie] That's funny, I asked the 100 days question in the other channel because I saw the wiki update from aaronpk, and I had no idea of the conversation going on in this channel
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Lot of discussion about #100days in #indieweb. I should probably do a 100 days of yard work ?" by Michael Bishop on 2017-04-30 https://miklb.com/1600-2/
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tantek lol
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tantek that would count! :)
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tantek miklb, you have to see list of ideas for more things like that ;) https://indieweb.org/100DaysOfIndieWeb#More_100_days_projects
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GWG I am looking for the algorithm to determine the representative item from parsed Microformats 2 if there are multiple items. Is there a discussion of that in the wiki?
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GWG Comments says to only use the first entry. But I have seen some strange markup
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GWG Especially with WordPress themes, including mine
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sknebel GWG: I think you could check if u-url == current url (and/or possibly u-uid? tantek, is that what u-uid is for?)
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Loqi sknebel: skippy left you a message 2 days, 17 hours ago: thanks for pointing me to bestmotherfucking.website. I just submitted a PR. That'll be a fun one to tweet about. ;)
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GWG I have been looking at that, but wondering if anyone laid it out
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tantek sknebel: yes that's an aspect of the representative h-card algorithm that could be re-used for other objects
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GWG I have changed the coding to no longer limit itself to h-entry, and instead embrace all objects
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GWG Excuse me, except h-as-*, still not sure what to do with those
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tantek well hopefully they shouldn't exist outside of an h-entry, so you should be able to ignore any h-as-*
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j12t Planning trip to IndieWeb Summit in Portland. Any word on the venue yet? Trying to pick the right neighborhood for a hotel ...
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tantek j12t awesome!
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tantek I haven't picked a hotel yet either myself
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GWG I have to check fares
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j12t Does "somewhere downtown" sound about right, or is minor outlaying islands a possibility for the venue?
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GWG j12t, pick a hotel rate you can cancel is my advice
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aaronpk "Somewhere downtown" yep
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aaronpk I will hopefully hear back on the venue confirmation tomorrow
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j12t Darn, I was hoping for a beach :-)
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tantek aaronpk, I wonder if it is worth recommending a few hotels for folks coming from out of town or who may be otherwise unfamiliar with Portland
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aaronpk Sure, I think there are some listed on last year's page
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schmarty there are some hotels at /2016#Hotels but not at 2016.indieweb.org
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miklb GWG what do you think about me just building the h-card widget into my theme with the plan to eventually offer it up to the IW plugin? Just so I don't lose focus on the theme. But I think it is a necessary element where ever it lives.
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GWG miklb, you should. Build it as an inclided file so you can fork as needed.
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miklb nods
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GWG Beaches are expensive. I learned that at IWC LA
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GWG That is why I stayed a few stops down a transit line
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GWG The best places to have a venue is either in the city center or a little outside the center with easy transit options.
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miklb what does it mean if an airline charges $40 more for "main cabin"? otherwise you sit in cargo?
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GWG Hmmm..JetBlue's fare went down.
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GWG I think I'll let it ride
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GWG I still can't figure out why this is being classified as a mention instead of a like.
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snarfed GWG: my years old bug too!!! i've been lazy and haven't tried to debug that enough, but it's plagued me for years, can't wait to see it fixed
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tantek URL?
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GWG snarfed: You are partly responsible for the design I'm implementing.
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snarfed ...thanks?
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GWG I'm mirroring some of the Micropub ideas you implemented
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GWG Properties stored in comment meta as mf2_, for example. That should allow for progressive enhancement in future.
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snarfed examples (cc tantek): https://snarfed.org/2017-03-12_23853#comment-2603533
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Loqi Anonymous
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snarfed plenty more on other posts
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snarfed (those are actually fb reactions. iirc it happened more to me with replies, but i expect same root cause)
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tantek emoji?
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snarfed yeah that's one common trigger but definitely not the only
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GWG But, on colinwalker's recent example, it finds a like-of property, which should make the code of type like.
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GWG The code has never known about emoji
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snarfed mostly demurs from CMS deep dives
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tantek snarfed, not sure all such reactions should be considered equivalent (even roughly) to likes
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tantek what are reactions
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Loqi reactions refer to the subset of responses/interactions with a post that are quicker, more impulsive, but still a conscious act, typically a simple UI gesture without writing any content, such as likes, reposts, bookmarks, or perhaps multiple simple UI gestures, such as selection a text range and posting a quotation of part of a post, or picking a person from a list to post an invitation as a response to seeing an event https://indieweb.org/reactions
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snarfed sure but that's a different point from the bug in the plugin that sometimes ignores the mf2 altogether and defaults to bare mention
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tantek oh, instead of a comment?
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GWG Well, actually, the code has a series of conditions, and if none is met, it assumes it is a mention. That is the way it should be.
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snarfed right. here's another reaction on the same post that worked fine. no code changes between. https://snarfed.org/2017-03-12_23853#comment-2603372
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Loqi Clara Shih
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GWG Which makes me assume the conditions are to blame.
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tantek snarfed, what's odd is that it's not *completely* ignoring the h-entry
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snarfed GWG: is there a canonical issue for this bug? i know there have been a few in various stages at different times, across both semantic-linkbacks repos :(:(:(
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tantek In this example: https://snarfed.org/2017-03-12_23853#comment-2603533 it's picking up the h-card u-photo inside the h-entry, but not the h-card p-name, and apparently it's ignoring the u-in-reply-to
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Loqi Anonymous
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GWG snarfed: I'm using the latest, https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks/issues/82
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Loqi [colin-walker] #82 Semantic_linkbacks_type returning incorrectly
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snarfed GWG: issue, not version
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GWG If you want to add all your examples.
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snarfed oh nm thanks
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snarfed would you mind closing all the others if any are still open?
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snarfed (both repos)
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GWG snarfed: I don't have permissions for that.
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snarfed pls ask for permission then, you definitely deserve it!
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GWG I may, after I have my PR ready. The original assumptions the plugin made are 4 years old. Things have gotten more complex since then, so I'm trying to account for that.
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GWG Basically, everything is run through a class mapping and a rel mapping function to determine type. And I think that is where the problem is.
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miklb definitely sounds like need a better mouse trap
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GWG miklb: It's been adequate for a long time.
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miklb GWG I don't mean to discredit the work, but as you said, it's four year old logic and things have changed.
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GWG I think the problem is in a function that searches for a URL in an array of URLs
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GWG I need a second opinion. I'm missing something. There is differently something wrong with this function. https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks/blob/master/includes/class-linkbacks-mf2-handler.php#L407
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GWG Never mind, I think I figured it out.
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GWG An attempt to make a PHP notice go away created an error in the function.
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@ChrisAldrich Thank you! It was harder than I expected, and a good personal development challenge. Now considering renewing for another 100 days, or perhaps just continuing to do it by default (not part of a project) and picking a different #100dayproject. 100 Days of IndieWeb still seems intimidating (despite my contributing almost daily to IndieWeb), so I may pick one of these: https://indieweb.org/100DaysOfIndieWeb#More_100_days_projects" on 2017-04-30 http://tantek.com/2017/120/t1/
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