#indieweb 2017-05-31

2017-05-31 UTC
begriffs, gRegorLove and eli_oat joined the channel
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eli_oat
set weechat.color.chat_nick_self darkgray
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eli_oat
sorry about that!
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eli_oat
forgot that leading slash :|
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eli_oat
how's everyone today?
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miklb
fair to midland
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eli_oat
word — I guess I'm fair to sea-side
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gRegorLove
fair to west coast best coast
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miklb
is on the west coast of the east coast
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[kevinmarks]
I went to a place like that last week
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Loqi
South Gare
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jjuran
ben_thatmustbeme: I'm still crushed that Ward's Wiki went JS;DR.
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bignose
aw crap. “This site requires JavaScript and Cookies to be enabled. Please change your browser settings or upgrade your browser.” <URL: http://wiki.c2.org/>
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bignose
say it ain't true
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bignose
hah
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jjuran
schmarty: I'm not going to make it to HWC this week. :-/ I need to get my OSB talk finished.
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bignose
my fault, ‘c2.org’ is not the right domain.
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bignose
jjuran: when I visit <URL: http://wiki.c2.com/> with JavaScript disabled, it displays fine. Links work as expected. What's “DR” about it?
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bignose
“adding JavaScript to a site does not make it “JS;DR” unless the site *doesn't work* without that.)
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bignose
jjuran: you're right, I must have added an exception for ‘c2.com’. :-(
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tantek
dang all I see at wiki.c2.com is http://wiki.c2.com/spin.gif
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tantek
hope archive.org got all of c2 before he js;dr'd it
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GWG
Evening
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tantek
evening GWG
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GWG
tantek: always a pleasure
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tantek
same!
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GWG
What have you been up to?
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Loqi
[WardCunningham] remodeling: The original wiki rewritten as a single page application
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snarfed
site is working fine with js on
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snarfed
(just fyi)
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GWG
Hello, snarfed
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GWG
I'm disappointed. I'm abandoning my original Semantic Linkbacks approach and backtracking due issues.
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Zegnat
Good morning IndieWeb
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Zegnat
What time is it for dougbeal?
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Loqi
In dougbeal's timezone, US/Pacific, it is currently 11:43pm on May 30
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Zegnat
That’s going to be an early HWC, dougbeal|imac :)
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[colinwalker]
Morning all
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Loqi
*yawn*
strugee, j4y_funabashi, calumryan, gRegorLove, botka1, voxpelli_, brucewang, sknebel__, hs0ucy_, rhythmthing, initrd_, lordabdul_, exodist_ and loicm joined the channel
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jjuran
what is covfefe
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "covfefe" yet. Would you like to create it?
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Zegnat
Honestly, I read that as coffee first
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Zegnat
What is coffee?
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Loqi
coffee is an optional fuel to power indiewebcamp events https://indieweb.org/coffee
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Zegnat
What is tea?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "tea" yet. Would you like to create it?
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Zegnat
tea is a viable alternative to [[coffee]]
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@paulrobertlloyd
Really impressed by @barryf’s IndieWeb-tastic website. I especially like how content is backed up to GitHub: https://barryfrost.com/2016/11/colophon ?
(twtr.io/1SJu8mkBZgL)
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calumryan
what is covfefe
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "covfefe" yet. Would you like to create it?_
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calumryan
covfefe was a mistype by POTUS45 posted on the popular content hosting silo [[twitter]]. It's one example of the platform's constraints: being that it doesn't allow users to [[edit]] a post once published.
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Zegnat
Foursquare + Reddit, wonder if this will lead to anything interesting. https://medium.com/foursquare-direct/foursquare-reddit-61e2c11c1838
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jeremycherfas
Morning Indieweb
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jeremycherfas
How did the tag fetching go?
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Zegnat
jeremycherfas, Grav webmention plugin is officially updated with the fix: https://github.com/Perlkonig/grav-plugin-webmention/releases/tag/v1.1.0
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cweiske
schmarty, I saw you did not get the tt-rss-micropub plugin to work?
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jeremycherfas
I know! Very cool.
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cweiske
schmarty, it currently does not work in combined feed display mode - only if you have a separate pane for article content
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skippy
aloha, #indieweb.
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schmarty
cweiske: ah, thanks! that solves it.
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schmarty
jjuran: we'll miss you at HWC Baltimore! Want to remote in for part of it?
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sknebel
good morning!
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@derhess
Don't forget! Today 19:00: 8th Homebrew Website Club #Berlin, at Starbucks Sony Center (Potsdamer Platz) #indieweb https://sebastiangreger.net/2017/05/homebrew-website-club-berlin-2017-05-31/
(twtr.io/1SK91PyqUuQ)
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skippy
is anyone successfully using PlanetPlanet or similar as a feed reader?
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sknebel
totally wouldn't work for me, at least not for a lot of my feedreader usage. I guess it could work as a "twitter replacement" subscribing to microblogs, where I care less about missing stuff
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ben_thatmustbeme
may do no good, but at least they get that people don't like it
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jjuran
schmarty: Yeah, I might do that. Please send me details.
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ben_thatmustbeme
good morning #indieweb
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ben_thatmustbeme
a github 500 error
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sknebel
yes. even with 3d parallax effect on the header image ...
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sknebel
(if you move the mouse over it)
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skippy
sknebel: i find i dont much care about "liking" or saving items from my feed. I just want a river of news.
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sknebel
skippy: for me it's mostly that a lot of feeds I read have one high-quality article every few weeks. I want to read that some time, when I have time and mental space for it. so that stuff has to wait around for me to get to it
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sknebel
if that's not your use case, a planet-like thing might be an option
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eightfold
aaronpk: hi there! i have a couple of years of gpx logs i want to create a heatmap of. i found https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/6958109913/ and there you mention “a custom script that projects the GPS logs onto a 2D image plane”. does this script happen to be available? i’m looking for a solution that doesn’t involve me uploading my every move the last few years to an unknown entity.
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Zegnat
What time is it for aaronpk?
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Loqi
In aaronpk's timezone, US/Pacific, it is currently 6:53am on May 31
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Zegnat
eightfold he might not be up yet ^^^
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eightfold
Zegnat: ah, of course. sweden here :) i can wait/idle.
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schmarty
jjuran: ok! i'll make an appear.in or similar and drop a link here.
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Zegnat
eightfold, if you are interested in general IndieWeb stuff, there is a Homebrew Website Club going on tonight. The local Gothenburg one is cancelled in favour of an online one, so 2 others from Sweden (that includes me) will be there: https://indieweb.org/events/2017-05-31-homebrew-website-club#European_time_.28new.21.29
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eightfold
Zegnat: sounds awesome! would have loved participating, but i’ll most likely be AFK until 19:30 today. :(
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Zegnat
Ah, that’s too bad. You can always check if people are still there when you get back but usual wrapup would be around 19:30
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jjuran
schmarty: thanks
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dgold
skippy: have you looked at Dave Winer's River5?
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skippy
dgold: no. will look now.
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skippy
interesting. i'm not super keen on a node app to fetch feeds, but i'll give this a deeper look. thanks!
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@schmarty
Happy to roll out JSON Feed on the Adafruit Blog. Looking forward to more #IndieWeb-friendly features at @adafruit! https://blog.adafruit.com/2017/05/30/adafruit-blog-now-syndicating-json-feed/
(twtr.io/1SKMZY6V2dx)
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Loqi
Jeena: Zegnat left you a message 3 days, 5 hours ago: you have time, can you check why http://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2017/yes-all-being-well-i-will-connect wasn’t picked up by your site?
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Zegnat
Haha, yes, Jeena
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Loqi
nice
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Zegnat
In 20 minutes, actually, which is something I totally forgot…
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jeremycherfas
Plenty of time to get set up, no?
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Zegnat
Should be. I just need to grab a browser that support WebRTC
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Jeena
I will need to join from the train then until I get home
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petermolnar
JSON feed....sigh... format wars again. just use mf2.
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petermolnar
also doesn't make sense at all: converting atom/rss to json is not that hard.
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Zegnat
Indeed, petermolnar. IBM even has a standard for it already
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petermolnar
IBM, the company that used to make good hardware but now selling "AI" solution for huge companies with a lot of money
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Looking foward to the day the #indieweb community doesn&#8217;t rehash the argument of JSON feed vs mf2. To each their own for an independent web." by Michael Bishop on 2017-05-31 https://miklb.com/1867-2/
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@miklb
Looking foward to the day the #indieweb community doesn’t rehash the argument of JSON feed vs mf2. To each their own for an independent web.
(twtr.io/1SKNNCaAaoG)
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petermolnar
although Watson is not that bad
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ben_thatmustbeme
trying to codify a mf2 -> json version that is similar
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ben_thatmustbeme
so no need to figure write anything other than a parser
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ben_thatmustbeme
well translator from the parser
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[cleverdevil]
Good morning IndieWeb ?
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ben_thatmustbeme
good morning [cleverdevil]
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dgold
interestingly enough (or not, depending on your PoV) Dave Winer wrote the other day about a json-ified RSS
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dgold
http://scripting.com/rss.json -- his 'finished article'
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aaronpk
oh my gosh are we starting the JSON wars now?
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aaronpk
that would be very bad
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Zegnat
And Jeena and I are starting our Virtual HWC. If anyone wants to join, you are welcome!
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jeremycherfas
Just getting some tea.
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aaronpk
last time this happened it basically derailed all progress on an independent web and that allowed facebook and twitter to happen
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aaronpk
so... let's not do that again k?
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Jeena
Ok, me and Zegnat are in the video chat already
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jeremycherfas
What’s the room name?
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[cleverdevil]
That's why I'm just trying to work *with* the JSON Feed folks.
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[cleverdevil]
Frankly, its getting publicity and is being implemented by readers and websites.
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[cleverdevil]
Might as well try and encourage it in positive directions.
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dgold
i found it incredibly simple to implement.
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dgold
really, I'm not exactly a programmer, and making it work in golang was simples
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ben_thatmustbeme
thats why i was trying to work to merge JSON Feed in to jf2
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ben_thatmustbeme
merge the two
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ben_thatmustbeme
the differences are pretty minor now
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dgold
what is jf
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "jf" yet. Would you like to create it?
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dgold
what is jf2
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Loqi
jf2 is a working prototype of a simpler JSON serialization of microformats2 https://indieweb.org/jf2
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Zegnat
dgold: that is a big part of the point they are making, let people just use default JSON serialisation tools of their preferred language and gone are the mistakes
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[cleverdevil]
Which is a mostly reasonable assertion.
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[cleverdevil]
Until people implement it using templates ?
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lukasros
Good evening everyone!
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aaronpk
there are mistakes you can still make even if the JSON is correct though, which is also what happened with Atom/RSS
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[cleverdevil]
Definitely.
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[cleverdevil]
Its not a panacea, by any means.
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[cleverdevil]
It *is* a hell of a lot simpler than RSS/Atom.
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schmarty
oh boy. sorry to kick this discussion off again, haha.
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Loqi
schmarty: lol
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schmarty
we like to try out new things at Adafruit and, if they don't work out, no big deal.
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schmarty
turning on JSON Feed for our blog was next to zero effort, seeing where it goes will be interesting.
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schmarty
i am planning on getting mf2 support in there soon, which i am more excited about. :}
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aaronpk
i will also point out that JSONFeed is still written with primarily blog posts in mind, which is a much easier problem than what h-entry is doing with all our various post types
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[cleverdevil]
I've got an open discussion on their Github re: this point, and ben_thatmustbeme has been providing good input there.
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh cool, schmarty, you are at adafruit?
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schmarty
ben_thatmustbeme: sort of! i am on the web team but i am remote. i maintain the forums and blog and help w/ dev infrastructure stuff.
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ben_thatmustbeme
schmarty++ just because.. Adafruit
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Loqi
schmarty has 10 karma in this channel (14 overall)
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sknebel
And not everybody has complex post types on a way that looks nice in dumb converters (e.g. I have a feed in my feed reader through one of the converter services where each post body just says "Portland, Oregon" :P (but titles survive at least)
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schmarty
haha, i feel very lucky and privileged to work with such awesome people.
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, another reason to keep jf2 super close to json feed, deployments will need to make very few changes
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[cleverdevil]
Is your aim to make it fully compatible, ben_thatmustbeme?
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[cleverdevil]
So that JSON Feed consumers will be able to read jf2 feeds and just ignore bits that they don't understand?
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dgold
where is this discussion, cleverdevil ?
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Loqi
[cleverdevil] #51 Representing alternate post types
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ben_thatmustbeme
[cleverdevil]: no, that would involve entirely breaking or changing Jf2
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ben_thatmustbeme
the point is to keep it on the same vocab as mf2
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ben_thatmustbeme
which mean jsonfeed would have to change to unify
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[cleverdevil]
Worth a try.
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aaronpk
i strongly suspect jsonfeed works fine for blog posts and just won't end up evolving to other post types
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aaronpk
well, beyond podcasts anyway
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[cleverdevil]
That said, I fear that is unlikely.
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[cleverdevil]
You may be right, aaronpk./
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[cleverdevil]
I'm still gonna try ?
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jeremycherfas
Aaronpk: Is there a readme for running micropub rocks locally?
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[cleverdevil]
Sort of feels like JSON Feed has the right... people? publicity? marketing? push?... behind it to gain traction.
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[cleverdevil]
So, I'd like to try *now* to see if alternate post type representation can make it in with an extension.
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aaronpk
[cleverdevil]: that's true, it's certainly worth a shot
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aaronpk
jeremycherfas: sorry, that part is kind of under documented right now
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dgold
it has people in the iOS/Apple devspace
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[cleverdevil]
Pragmatically speaking, the indieweb benefits from the proliferation of a feed format that enables representing a variety of post types.
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[cleverdevil]
I don't care what it is.
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dgold
those people do lots of podcasts that other devs listen to <shrug>
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[cleverdevil]
But, I don't want a format to catch wildfire that has *zero* support.
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Zegnat
aaronpk, turns out I was a bit overly positive when I said you could run the test suite yourself if you wanted to test stuff that are still only local on your computer ;)
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aaronpk
i *should* make it easier to run locally
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aaronpk
there's a few moving parts tho, so it's unfortunately not trivial
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sknebel
Offer a vagrant box? I'm generally not a fan, but this is what they are made for
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sknebel
jeremycherfas: you tried ngrok already, but had issues with it, right?
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jeremycherfas
I did. Mostly because I was not sure how to make the rel=“ links show the ngrok URL instead of the Localhost
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jeremycherfas
I think there’s an option to map that, but I couldn’t find it.
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jeremycherfas
Or rather make it operate.
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Jeena
I think I will rejoin when I'm at home, will be in about 10-15 minutes
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Jeena
carry on without me for now
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sknebel
Him, how do you set the URL on your live site?
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Zegnat
Is fine Jeena
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jeremycherfas
Sknebel: I think it is a variable in the config. But not certain.
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jeremycherfas
I’ll look.
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sknebel
Just curious why localhost would be different than that
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jeremycherfas
? Because it is the base for the site?
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sknebel
Sorry, bad wording. Why the same way to set it on the live site wouldn't work locally
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jeremycherfas
sknebel: the honest truth is that I cannot find how Known gets a base url. Locally the string ‘localhost’ appears in about 40 files. Some I know are not relevant, but some of the others may be.
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jeremycherfas
Maybe from the database ini
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Zegnat
petermolnar, were you going to join the call?
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sebsel
For those who want to join: https://talky.io/hwc :)
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Zegnat
We talked through the quiet writing hour, and will now continue talking over at https://talky.io/hwc - for anyone who wants to join
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ben_thatmustbeme
[cleverdevil]: just thinking back about that question, i think getting it close enough will cover most instances where consuming code can say, oh, its jsonfeed, all i have to do is move these fields around and then its good
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ben_thatmustbeme
... i think that will be good enough for most
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[cleverdevil]
Honestly, I think that latching onto the early popularity and steering it in a compatible, but improved direction is the best path, but I certainly don't want to tell you what to do with JF2 ?
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ben_thatmustbeme
[cleverdevil]: feedback is always welcome
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ben_thatmustbeme
i plan to write up how to programattically convert any jsonfeed to jf2
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ben_thatmustbeme
considered that as part of the spec, but i really don't want to have to do that for all the json formats people have come up with
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[cleverdevil]
That's another great way to go about it.
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[cleverdevil]
Yeah, totally fair.
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[cleverdevil]
The thing is, if JSON Feed really, really catches on strong, then I think its worth bundling in the spec.
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ben_thatmustbeme
other side is I also need to write up sample of how to convert mf2 to jf2 feed, which is pretty simple as well
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[cleverdevil]
I started working on moving the Known implementation to match my latest updates in the github ticket last night.
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[cleverdevil]
Should have a working pull request maybe tomorrow.
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ben_thatmustbeme
then it can be a hosted service and anyone who had mf2 can just include a <link> tag to give them a valid jf2feed
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Loqi
[tantek] #13 consider adopting XRay format for HTML valued properties like 'content'
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ben_thatmustbeme
it would match jsonfeed better, and i don't see much reason for the full content-type really
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petermolnar
Zegnat I will, I'm running late with stuff, sorry
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dougbeal|iOS
Talky iOS crashed
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Zegnat
dougbeal|iOS, you must have been the anonymous I saw joining for a split second.
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Zegnat
Annoying when software fails
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petermolnar
dougbeal|iOS try it in the browser instead, maybe that works
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[barryf]
HWC London has begun. Here with calumryan and Justin (who's just setting up his rel=me).
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dougbeal|iOS
Demands a real browser ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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ben_thatmustbeme
[cleverdevil]: what is hubs: supposed to be useful for in jsonfeed?
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ben_thatmustbeme
the websub one is not at all needed
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ben_thatmustbeme
i guess it could be useful for webmention
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[cleverdevil]
https://jsonfeed.org/version/1 has an entry on it for "Subscribing to Real-time Notifications"
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[barryf]
Hey, welcome javery
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[javery]
hullo!
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calumryan
Welcome javery!
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, its completely outside of the spec
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[kevinmarks]
I have most of a mf2 to jf2 converter, I just need to make it parse html directly
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[kevinmarks]
Though if we want to allow websub we may need to add rels back in.
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Zegnat
Just ended Virtual HWC EU time, I might post some notes on the wiki soon. Have some screenshots, nothing posed, will see if they are post-worthy.
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Jeena
wow, this went really good, especially because people kind of were at the same level and had some background.
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jeremycherfas
I cannot thank all of you enough.
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Jeena
I updated also with a nice screenshot https://jeena.net/events/25
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sebsel
yeah, it's hard to split a virtual HWC in groups, but it worked without splitting :)
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[kevinmarks]
Oops, I forget.
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Jeena
true sebsel
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Zegnat
It was a little sad that there were some technical difficulties between Lukas and me especially
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Zegnat
Now to see where I will waste the rest of my IndieWeb evening on: Grav, Known, or maybe my own webmention endpoint
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Jeena
What is Grav?
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Loqi
Grav is a flat-file CMS built on PHP, with Twig templating, and YAML + Markdown for storing articles (YAML for metadata, Markdown for the content) https://indieweb.org/Grav
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jeremycherfas
Zegnat: Do your own thing, please
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Jeena
I never got the databaseless website thingy but for each their own!
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Zegnat
I also find it limiting. I have a SQLite db I use for indexing my flatfile storage.
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Zegnat
I think Grav builds an object of *every* page on every load, and then just uses heavy caching to get around performance issues
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Zegnat
I’ll go have dinner first, so don’t worry about me working for you only, jeremycherfas ;)
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gRegorLove
Howdy, indieweb
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sebsel
ohh, I got an IndieWeb like from Jeena :D always magic when it's not a bridgy one.
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Zegnat
So, on one end I really want to put our picture on the wiki. On the other hand, look at my face in Jeena’s screenshot ?
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ben_thatmustbeme
[kevinmarks] adding rels back in wouldn't do any good as its not xml. you need to use http headers for it
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Jeena
hehe sebsel
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Jeena
haha Zegnat, it's not easy to time it so everybody is in their spot, it's impossible to get everyone to look good at the same time ^^
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Loqi
hehe
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Jeena
I also fixed so http://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2017/yes-all-being-well-i-will-connect shows up as a RSVP. It's an ugly workaround but I think it's because of the old ruby-mf2 parser, so hopefully I will be able to remove that once I use the new one
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Loqi
[Jeremy Cherfas] Yes: All being well, I will connect.
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Zegnat
Jeena++ for fixing stuff on HWC night
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Loqi
jeena has 38 karma in this channel (47 overall)
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ben_thatmustbeme
thinks people will be quite happy when they update to the new ruby parser, comes with a command line script too
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ben_thatmustbeme
but Jeena and [barryf] can let me know their thoughts on that one
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[barryf]
Hey ben_thatmustbeme I've just updated this week and it helped fix a long term issue with nested values. Thanks!
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[kevinmarks]
it's TWiG time
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[kevinmarks]
send me things to mention
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jjuran
what is TWiG
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Loqi
twig may refer to TWiG (This Week in Google), or the Twig (template engine) https://indieweb.org/twig
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jjuran
[kevinmarks]: IndieWeb only, or anything?
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@benwerd
Excited to head to Portland for the weekend of June 25-26 to help build a more independent web. You should come too! https://2017.indieweb.org/
(twtr.io/1SKqLQVotQH)
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[kevinmarks]
anything, though indieweb is very welcom
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KartikPrabhu
plug IWS upcoming
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KartikPrabhu
micropub is a W3C rec
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gRegorLove
[kevinmarks]: May not be much to discuss yet, but ben_thatmustbeme's working on jf2 profile and jsonfeed interop
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gRegorLove
Several readers and a podcast aggregator consuming jsonfeed now, could discuss pros/cons
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gRegorLove
[kevinmarks]: 20 spots remaining for IWS
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[kevinmarks]
i think jsonfeed is too inside baseball, and I agree with aaron that we don't want to start a splitters row
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gRegorLove
good point
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tantek
agreed
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tantek
still ruminating on a productive way to add to issue 49 (re: jsonfeed)
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tantek
I think it will be along the lines of encouraging all experiments with attempting simpler solutions, formats or otherwise
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Comment on @Mentions by Now: May 2017" by Now: May 2017 on 2017-05-31 http://boffosocko.com/mentions/#comment-34773
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Comment on About Chris Aldrich by Now: May 2017" by Now: May 2017 on 2017-05-31 http://boffosocko.com/about/#comment-34774
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Comment on Review and notes from The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up: The Japanese Art of Decluttering and Organizing by Marie Kondo by Now: May 2017" by Now: May 2017 on 2017-05-31 http://boffosocko.com/2017/05/09/the-life-changing-magic-of-tidying-up-by-marie-kondo/#comment-34775
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "There Is No Front-End Web Development Crisis" by Mike Sugarbaker on 2016-06-21 https://medium.com/@misuba/there-is-no-front-end-web-development-crisis-cb126eb0f6d3?source=rss-669cf77dcb7------2
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "The IndieWeb people are working on this." by Mike Sugarbaker on 2016-12-05 https://medium.com/@misuba/the-indieweb-people-are-working-on-this-1bb85f7f8ab3?source=rss-669cf77dcb7------2
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schmarty
!tell jjuran: HWC Baltimore remote link: appear.in/hwc-baltimore
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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schmarty
HWC Baltimore is getting started with our quiet writing hour.
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Introducing AltPlatform & our manifesto for the Open Web | AltPlatform" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-05-31 http://boffosocko.com/2017/05/31/introducing-altplatform-our-manifesto-for-the-open-web-altplatform/
wolftune and [chrisaldrich] joined the channel
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[chrisaldrich]
^^ This new blog by the creator of ReadWriteWeb sounds a lot like us. Folks should reach out if they know the principles: http://altplatform.org/about-us/
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Loqi
[chrisaldrich]: jeremycherfas left you a message 1 day, 8 hours ago: Do you post from Quill to Known? And does Quill recognise your Known syndication targets?
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Loqi
About Us
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todrobbins
nice share @Loqi
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[chrisaldrich]
!tell jeremycherfas I haven't used Quill in a while for that, but I could give it a try to see what I get. I believe it's worked it in the past.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[chrisaldrich]
s/principles/principals
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@ChrisAldrich
@ricmac There are a bunch of us building exactly what your manifesto speaks about. I hope you'll join us at https://indieweb.org.
(twtr.io/1SL6G2XDKMb)
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@ChrisAldrich
@ricmac In particular a lot of this type of open architecture already exists as plugins for @WordPress http://indieweb.org/wordpress
(twtr.io/1SL6WPY2e0G)
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jjuran
schmarty: thanks
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Loqi
jjuran: schmarty left you a message 1 hour ago: HWC Baltimore remote link: appear.in/hwc-baltimore
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@ricmac
@ChrisAldrich Thanks, yes we’re big admirers of http://indieweb.org. We’re just another collection of voices to… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/870061503650516992
(twtr.io/1SL7H_gfYVs)
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