#indieweb 2017-06-07

2017-06-07 UTC
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aaronpk wat
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aaronpk there is an extra space
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aaronpk https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2017-06-06-17-04-42.png
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aaronpk that's why it's not finding the link
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aaronpk this appears to be a Known bug
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skippy much of the indieweb stuff I've seen discussed in here thus far has been targetting individuals. Are there robust multi-user publishing tools for groups / communities? I see known has a "groups" feature. And of course Mastodon. Anything else I should peek at?
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aaronpk what does HTML say about whitespace in the href attribute? should webmention receivers be stripping whitespace? or is that invalid markup?
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tantek that's totally a Known bug. sheesh
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tantek question is, it is a known Known bug, or an unknown Known bug.
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tantek it could *either* be in the Known code that generates the markup, OR it could be in the Known RSVP UI where you enter the URL your are RSVPing to, and accidentally type a space after (or copy pasted one without seeing it)
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gRegorLove Known was having issues sending webmentions as of several months ago. I'm not sure if it's been fixed since then or not.
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[chrisaldrich] I tweaked the RSVP documentation for WordPress. The original was fine, but a bunch of additional bookmarklets got thrown into the WP page making things less clear.
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[chrisaldrich] I'd suggest that the easiest/quickest way to do RSVPs for someone new is probably to do raw html in a new post.
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Did you ever try the RSVP functionality I put together, out of curiosity? I didn't notice the bug because I don't go anywhere
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[chrisaldrich] The Indieweb PressThis plugin on GitHub isn't in the WP.org repo, so its not in the Indieweb WP plugin.
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: I hadn't tried it until I saw your note about how it was wrapped as I hadn't really been anywhere recently either.
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GWG I'd like the Press This plugin in the .org repo.
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: with spaces is valid html, but you are supposed to treat them as %20
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[chrisaldrich] GWG did you say you'd fixed it or it was still in the queue?
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GWG I fixed it in the dev version. Was going to do more before I pushed the change, but I might just push what I have now.
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[chrisaldrich] I'll play around tonight and try to document the RSVP process a bit better (with screen grabs) into the wiki or at least on my own site.
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GWG I wonder if I should propose a "Improving WordPress Indieweb Plugin Usability" topic for IWS.
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[miklb] I’m willing to make screencasts
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gRegorLove What is Press This?
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Loqi Press This is the WordPress bookmarklet for quickly publishing text, images, or video https://indieweb.org/Press_This
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gRegorLove Does it post RSVPs too?
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[miklb] gregorlove there is an IW bookmarklet for RSVP I believe, which is different than the Press This that ships w/WordPress
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gRegorLove What is IndieWeb Press This?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IndieWeb Press This" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[miklb] IndieWeb Press This is a separate set of bookmarklets bundled as a plugin to allow you to do IndieWeb actions on your WordPress site.
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Loqi ok
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[miklb] https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-indieweb-press-this >> /IndieWeb Press This
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Loqi [pfefferle] wordpress-indieweb-press-this: some IndieWeb magic for WordPress' "press this" bookmarklet
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gRegorLove Argh, mid-typing :)
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[miklb] sorry
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gRegorLove <<
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[miklb] https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-indieweb-press-this << /IndieWeb Press This
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Loqi Sorry, I couldn't find a page named "https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-indieweb-press-this" or similar
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Loqi [pfefferle] wordpress-indieweb-press-this: some IndieWeb magic for WordPress' "press this" bookmarklet
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[miklb] IndieWeb Press This << https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-indieweb-press-this
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Loqi [pfefferle] wordpress-indieweb-press-this: some IndieWeb magic for WordPress' "press this" bookmarklet
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Loqi ok, I added "https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-indieweb-press-this" to the "See Also" section of /IndieWeb_Press_This
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gRegorLove hehe
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[miklb] not only am I unfamiliar with that Loqi feature, I’m still getting the hang of Slack ?
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mblaney !tell skippy /dobrado is multi-user and multi-group. If you want to try setting it up for yourself I would love any feedback you had.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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skippy tell me more.
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mblaney the page at /dobrado has more info from an indieweb perspective, but I also support a lot of users who don't use it for indieweb stuff.
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skippy ah. cool.
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mblaney so maybe #indiechat is better for that stuff, but I use it at https://unicyclic.com/mal as my personal site.
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Loqi Malcolm Blaney
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mblaney feel free to try it out at https://unicyclic.com
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skippy yeah, looking. thanks!
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Kongaloosh hey hey hey
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Kongaloosh guess who just had their first HWC?
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ben_thatmustbeme Kongaloosh++
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Loqi kongaloosh has 9 karma
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Kongaloosh we haven't decided yet
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Kongaloosh but I think it's going to be weekly
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KartikPrabhu nice
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Kongaloosh there was quite a bit of interest
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Kongaloosh we had four people who showed up, which was good for a trial run
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eli_oat ? nice!
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[miklb] that’s better than some weeks in SF
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Kongaloosh yeah
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Kongaloosh but you need a constant crowd to get it going
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Kongaloosh I know there's a bunch of other people who are interested
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Kongaloosh it's about finding the right times and places
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Kongaloosh actually
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Kongaloosh does anyone have advice on starting a new HWC
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Kongaloosh and how to get people up and running?
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gRegorLove Kongaloosh++
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Loqi kongaloosh has 10 karma
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Kongaloosh yay karma
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Kongaloosh :3
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gRegorLove I think consistency is good for HWC. If you can do weekly, great, but bi-weekly might prevent you from getting burned out.
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gRegorLove A consistent venue is good
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gRegorLove Do you mean getting people up and running with their own site, or attracting people to HWC?
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Kongaloosh gRegorLove: bothish
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Kongaloosh I was thinking of alternating between two locations
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Kongaloosh which might mean we can sustain different groups of people
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Kongaloosh one of the biggest issues I find with edmonton is that we have a number of great communities.... they just don't know or talk to each other
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gRegorLove I don't have much experience with the former since most people that have shown up already have a site
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Kongaloosh right now I'm setting people up with their own university-based websites
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eli_oat I don't really have any expirience, living on a literal island, BUT, I
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eli_oat ve
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eli_oat been thinking about ways to get people up and rolling using stuff like neocities
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gRegorLove There's been some discussion about improving /Getting_Started, so perhaps going through that page and noting any pain points for people would be best
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Kongaloosh mmmmmmmmm
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Kongaloosh yeah, I'm going off of my own experiences
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gRegorLove I think it's a pretty good page, but also haven't going through it in a while with fresh eyes
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gRegorLove I mean: going through that page with the people getting started with a site
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Kongaloosh where I got _hella_ confused as a robotics person trying to learn how to web properly
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Kongaloosh if I were to do it again a lot of things would be different
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Kongaloosh but yeah, I think you're right about the getting started
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Kongaloosh I'm just reading it right now trying to imagine what would be best
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gRegorLove Focusing on people-oriented use-cases is good. Asking questions about what they want to accomplish on their site rather than getting bogged down in the plumbing
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Kongaloosh because we need to motivate people as well
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Kongaloosh ^I got so bogged down in plumbing.
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eli_oat gRegorLove++
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Loqi gregorlove has 96 karma in this channel (140 overall)
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Kongaloosh gRegorLove++
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Loqi gregorlove has 97 karma in this channel (141 overall)
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gRegorLove Was your meetup today, Kongaloosh? When is the next one?
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Kongaloosh we had our first meetup today. the next one will be in two weeks
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gRegorLove Cool, on Tuesdays then? We can set up an event page for it and add it to the main page / table on /HWC
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Kongaloosh ahhhh
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Kongaloosh smart
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gRegorLove When is next-hwc?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/next-hwc
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gRegorLove when is next-hwc
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club Meetup is on 2017-06-07 at DreamHost https://indieweb.org/next-hwc
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gRegorLove June 20th then?
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Kongaloosh correct
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Kongaloosh I'm not sure where all I'm supposed to edit
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gRegorLove Kongaloosh: I set up an event page for today's; can you edit to fill in the times / venue? Then that can be duplicated with the dates changed for subsequent HWC
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gRegorLove https://indieweb.org/events/2017-06-06-homebrew-website-club
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gRegorLove You can remove the quiet writing hour stuff if you didn't have that
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gRegorLove If you took a photo of the attendees, add it to the photo section and it will show up in the weekly /this-week email
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Kongaloosh ahhh
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Kongaloosh I didn't
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Kongaloosh next time!
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Kongaloosh how do I add more pages for next-time?
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gRegorLove 06/06 and 06/20 are now in the table at the bottom of HWC
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Kongaloosh ahhhhh, I see!
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gRegorLove URL design for them is: events/YYYY-MM-DD-homebrew-webiste-club
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Kongaloosh this makes sense!
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Kongaloosh gRegorLove++
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gRegorLove That table is /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club
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Kongaloosh I will make note of all of this
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gRegorLove There's a proposed session for the Leaders Summat at IWS to talk about how to make this easier, heh.
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gRegorLove Events are hard.
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gRegorLove (Online event management, that is)
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gRegorLove Have you seen this for organizing? https://indieweb.org/HWC#Structure Feedback welcome
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Kongaloosh Mmmm
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Kongaloosh I had not
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Kongaloosh Just walking now, but I'll take a look soon.
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Kongaloosh I think there's a number of challenging pieces for getting started if you're new
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Kongaloosh For me it was a lot of information overload
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Kongaloosh Since the main source of information is wiki based I had a tough time sorting the relationship and relative importance of things.
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Kongaloosh gRegorLove: that's a really helpful page
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tantek is watching more IWC DUS intros
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tantek hey I think that is calumryan demoing his home page with event support and receiving RSVPs!
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tantek webrocker! uses WordPress. cool. POSSEing / backfeed etc.
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tantek love the top post "Everything is better with double bass drums"
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tantek checks logs
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tantek now watches the Service Workers session
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tantek (from IWC DUS)
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gRegorLove Hm, Woodwind isn't picking up the e-description for my h-events, but is for schmarty. I don't see much difference in the parsed mf2
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pfefferle good morning
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Loqi pfefferle: snarfed left you a message 7 hours, 49 minutes ago: lots of interest today in IRC in installing https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-indieweb-press-this from the wordpress directory. want to add it there?
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Loqi good morning
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[kevinmarks] Gregorlove is the difference a summary? I think woodwind looks for summary and content, not description
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KartikPrabhu is there a *-description property?
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[colinwalker] Morning all
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sknebel morning!
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Zegnat Oof, that was a bit of a backlog to read through.
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Zegnat Seems we could have saved a lot of people a lot of headache if we had updated /rsvp after getting jeremycherfas through RSVPing with Known.
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Zegnat Sorry about that.
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Zegnat KartikPrabhu, kevinmarks, description is to h-event what content is to h-entry.
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Zegnat Both h-entry and h-event have name and summary properties. h-entry has content where h-event has description. Not sure if this is documented anywhere for readers.
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KartikPrabhu hmm weird that a new term was used for that. summary seems to also fit
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Zegnat A log entry has content, an event does not. Instead an event has a description. Both an entry’s content and an event’s description may be summarised into a short blurb. Makes sense to me. We are just changing the context of an h-event by making it an h-feed item alongside h-entry’s.
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sknebel Zegnat: re backlog: yep, rethinking my stance re -wordpress :P
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[sebsel] just found out why Slack can’t be used for IRC notifications of your name: people on IRC are bots in the Slack channel and bots don’t trigger highlight notifications
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[sebsel] so it does work when a native Slack user says my name here
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sknebel [sebsel]: it doesn't get converted to @sebsel?
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sknebel (presumably bots can do *that*?)
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[sebsel] compares logs
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Zegnat Testing: ping sebsel
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Zegnat Testing: ping [sebsel]
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sknebel Testing: ping @sebsel
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[sebsel] This is just weird.
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sknebel ?
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[sebsel] https://seblog.nl/temp/media-endpoint/6121d0-slack-names.jpg
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[sebsel] why didn’t the first time sknebel mentioned me get highlighted?
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sknebel @sebsel: maybe at the beginning it doesn't highlight it visually?
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Zegnat Is it to do with [sebsel]: being followed by a colon?
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[sebsel] Oh, that is it, the colon.
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Zegnat face palms
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Zegnat good morning adactio
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adactio Morning!
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Loqi adactio: tantek left you a message 2 days, 18 hours ago: is there a HWC Brighton this week? https://indieweb.org/events/2017-06-07-homebrew-website-club#Brighton
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sknebel so it'd make sense for Loqi to insert a space or kill the colon after a slack-highlight?
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Loqi I think so it'd make sense for loqi to insert a space
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[sebsel] well, still: https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/201398467-Highlight-word-notifications
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[sebsel] it only get highlighted in chat, not a notification, which was what I was looking for
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Zegnat “Keep in mind: Highlight words sent by bots and integration messages do not trigger notifications, but they will appear highlighted in Slack.”
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sknebel even the @ ones?
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sknebel or do you explicitly want the non-@ ones to highlight you as well?
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[sebsel] well nobody uses @ on IRC right?
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sknebel ok, it only works if I reply and use [ sebsel ] that way, not if we are passively talking about you
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Zegnat All square-brackets are converted to @. So those should be the same.
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sknebel (if I reply I use auto-complete, and quassel figures out the [ ], if I just mention you I might not, especially if you haven't said anything in a while and are not in the IRC user lit
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sknebel *list
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[sebsel] Brackets+spaces don’t get @.
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sknebel sure, I did that intentionally to show what I mean
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[sebsel] yeah last week Zegnat mentioned me while I was offline. I saw it in the logs. It’s not a big deal really, but it would’ve been nice to use Slack that way :)
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sknebel (btw, you can have an account on my quassel core if you want, at least for desktop it's nice. but not slack)
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[sebsel] thanks sknebel :)
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sebsel hm, when a spamaccount on Instagram likes my photo, I'll have to delete the bridgy webmention myself
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sebsel that's the closest thing to webmentionspam now
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Zegnat Hmm, does that matter though?
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sebsel no, instagram has no website-field, so bridgy uses the profile-link as u-url for the h-card
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sebsel but on Twitter, it takes the spamurl, which makes me linking to them.
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sebsel Wait, Instagram does have a website-field, but bridgy ignores.
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Zegnat sebsel, you could add nofollow to links you pull in from external sources. So you wouldn’t be helping them with SEO.
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Zegnat Do you get a bridgy webmention when someone “unlikes” an Instagram photo? I would expect spam accounts to trigger that when Instagram removes them. Instagram has been quick to remove spam accounts in my experience.
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Zegnat !tell gRegorLove private events definitely have a “Can’t Go” RSVP option, separate from “Remove Me From Guest List”: https://imgur.com/O9zWqKR
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[kevinmarks] jsdr << https://sonniesedge.co.uk/blog/a-day-without-javascript
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Loqi ok, I added "https://sonniesedge.co.uk/blog/a-day-without-javascript" to the "See Also" section of /js;dr
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Liked Chris Aldrich's Today is My Third Indieweb Anniversary" by Andrew Jacobs on 2017-04-25 http://www.funwhilelost.com/2017/liked-chris-aldrichs-today-is-my-third-indieweb-anniversary-2e4fc93e5b
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Loqi [superfeedr] "This is one of the great motivators behind the #IndieWeb movement: a place to experiment and own your content. Thanks, @rachelandrew!" by Andrew Jacobs on 2017-01-13 http://www.funwhilelost.com/2017/this-is-one-of-the-great-motivators-behind-the-indieweb
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Homebrew Website Club Seattle" by Andrew Jacobs on 2017-03-10 http://www.funwhilelost.com/2017/homebrew-website-club-seattle
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calumryan What is SPA
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "SPA" yet. Would you like to create it?
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calumryan What is Single-page application
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/Single-page_application
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sknebel SPA is /Single-page_application
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Loqi ok
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calumryan PWA << https://medium.com/@markmuskardin/before-you-build-a-pwa-you-need-a-spa-e22770a0f31c
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Loqi ok, I added "https://medium.com/@markmuskardin/before-you-build-a-pwa-you-need-a-spa-e22770a0f31c" to the "See Also" section of /Progressive_Web_App
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sknebel calumryan: curious, do you agree with that article? To me it seemed more like someone finding a new buzzword to sell his "SPA training"
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sknebel but I haven't actually done anything with PWA tech
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sknebel so no experience to base that on
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calumryan sknebel don’t agree with it, PWA is possibly going to cause a lot of confusion going forward
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calumryan I think it was adactio who spoke about the ‘App’ part of the term that makes people assume it must behave like a native phone app
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sknebel the part with "add to homescreen", "hide browser chrome" clearly go in that direction as well
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sknebel I remember adactio getting in a blog-post "fight" with some chrome devs over the requirement to hide the URL bar. but e.g. offline capabilities are useful totally independently of it
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Zegnat A lot of the terms in PWA are possibly deceiving. The tech stack is mostly there to let people use a website as part of their usual UX flow, possibly offline, without putting a browser in between. There is nothing especially progressive or app about it.
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adactio Yeah, I've got a rant-y blog post brewing about this.
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sknebel I think the idea is that a website progressively upgrades to something thats like a native app
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sknebel (idea behind the name)
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Zegnat Yes, but I disagree with that idea. The website gives a visitor options, and might degrade itself (gracefully) if the user agent cannot make use of those options.
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Zegnat Or are there parts of the PWA techstack that are only available to it once you have “installed” it as an “app”
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Zegnat ?
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petermolnar nope
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petermolnar is (progressive webapp == web app that works online, offline, and resyncs once online again) ?
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sknebel the ability to be an "app" with no visible browser, and I think preferrence over not-added-to-homescreen ones when it comes to caching
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sknebel the techstack is available always
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Zegnat If the techstack is the same, then there is nothing that makes it progressive. It is still just a website that does exactly the same within a browser or as “app”. But that’s just me grumbling about semantics, I guess.
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sknebel my understanding of it was that the focus is on "it's like a native app". if it's not, it still gets a lot of the technical benefits in the browser window, and if the browser doesn't support it it falls back to being a online-only website
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sknebel making the "upgrade" from "website" to "app" transparent where available, without the user having to go find and install a seperate app. (always with the presumption that app is better and what users want)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "? Domains2017 Conference: Tuesday June 6, 3:00pm with the OU Crew | YouTube" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-06-06 http://boffosocko.com/2017/06/06/domains2017-conference-tuesday-june-6-300pm-with-the-ou-crew-youtube/
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Twitter List from #Domains17" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-06-07 http://boffosocko.com/2017/06/07/twitter-list-from-domains17/
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@ChrisAldrich A twitter list of people related to #openEd, #edTech, #DoOO, #indieweb, and others who tweeted about #domains17 http://boffosocko.com/2017/06/07/twitter-list-from-domains17/ (twitter.com/_/status/872508764401917952)
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@ChrisAldrich @THiNGkeriNG @bonni208 @mburtis The @withknown platform is awesome for #DoOO as well as some of the following list https://indieweb.org/projects (twitter.com/_/status/872509997304999936)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@hibbittsdesign @THiNGkeriNG @bonni208 @mburtis I'm curious if you've considered adding webmention to @getgrav for cross-site interaction, commenting, and mentions? I know some in #indieweb who" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-06-07 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/hibbittsdesign-thingkering-bonni208-mburtis-im-curious-if-youve-considered-adding
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@DreamHost DreamHost is thrilled to continually sponsor the monthly @indiewebcamp meetup at our #PDX office! Join: https://indieweb.org/events/2017-05-10-homebrew-website-club%23Homebrew_Website_Club_Meetup #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/872529358275190784)
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@priya_somani_ DreamHost is thrilled to continually sponsor the monthly indiewebcamp meetup at our #PDX office! Join: https://indieweb.org/events/2017-05-10-homebrew-website-club%23Homebrew_Website_Club_Meetup #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/872529459148181504)
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tantek ^^^ aaronpk, cleverdevil might want to double-check that URL ;)
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aaronpk Oh dear
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[cleverdevil] Eep.
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[cleverdevil] I'll let the social folks know.
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[cleverdevil] What's the best URL to use?
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gRegorLove [cleverdevil]: We keep /next-hwc redirecting pretty consistently.
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Loqi gRegorLove: Zegnat left you a message 9 hours, 9 minutes ago: private events definitely have a “Can’t Go” RSVP option, separate from “Remove Me From Guest List”: https://imgur.com/O9zWqKR
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gRegorLove But I think you mean just PDX? Since that's monthly probably best to just link to individual event pages.
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gRegorLove Zegnat: Good to know. Makes sense.
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@DreamHost DreamHost is thrilled to continually sponsor the monthly @indiewebcamp meetup at our #PDX office! Join: https://indieweb.org/events/2017-06-07-homebrew-website-club #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/872549162230755328)
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[cleverdevil] Tada
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@priya_somani_ DreamHost is thrilled to continually sponsor the monthly indiewebcamp meetup at our #PDX office! Join: https://indieweb.org/events/2017-06-07-homebrew-website-club #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/872549581153816576)
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Zegnat [chrisaldrich] is there a primer on your IndieWeb-for-Education work? Or am I up to date if I read the wiki page? I find that to be a fascinating topic and would love to riff on it some more when I have the time
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[chrisaldrich] zegnat I've got a couple of longer articles in the works with more detail for beginners, but there's a lot on that page
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[chrisaldrich] I've also got some thoughts and material about a similar page for journalism use, but haven't synthesized it all just yet.
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[chrisaldrich] zegnat, do feel free to add to it as you find interesting things/ideas
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Zegnat I’ll read through the material linked. Maybe we’ll have a moment to throw it to the group during IWS :)
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tantek good afternoon #Indieweb
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snarfed afternoon tantek!
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tantek is going to try to process any open "indieweb" tabs in his browser(s) *before* IWS
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snarfed 2.5w, hopefully enough time
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snarfed browser tabs zero is the new inbox zero!
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snarfed actually does browser tabs zero, it's pretty liberating
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tantek hah - very little chance me hitting tabs 0
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snarfed just don't open any more!
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tantek lol
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snarfed is looking forward to launching a new project at IWS
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tantek Oooh, this looks like it could use a major cleanup if someone wants to give it a go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Web_syndication
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tantek and the related wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_syndication
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tantek and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_web_syndication_technology
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tantek another: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Microblogging
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tantek micro.blog needs to be added to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_microblogging_services
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tantek hmm maybe I'll try just adding it with ??? for the other fields and see what happens
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snarfed pours one out for hmans's defunct pants. https://github.com/hmans/pants#readme
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Loqi [hmans] pants: PANTS: Distributed Social Blogging.
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snarfed among others
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tantek what happened to pants?
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tantek what is pants
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Loqi Pants is the name of the software User:hmans.io developed https://indieweb.org/Pants
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@brianjesse it's a thrill to get comments on my http://AltPlatform.org blog posts, thanks @ChrisAldrich and @AndySylvester99 ! #indieweb #AltPlatform (twitter.com/_/status/872572068193157120)
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snarfed "no longer actively maintaining" pants: https://hmans.io/opensource.html#legacy-projects
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snarfed also funny that two (or three?) independent indieweb projects by different people are named flutterby: http://www.flutterby.run/ , https://www.flutterby.net/ , https://www.flutterby.com/
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KartikPrabhu time for "flutterby.thatmustbe.us"
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi kartikprabhu has 143 karma in this channel (147 overall)
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tantek what is flutterby
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "flutterby" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek creates a stub for micro.blog
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@RubelKh59141803 @DreamHost @indiewebcamp Great! https://www.fiverr.com/sulemanbd267/research-brand-able-domain-name-in-24-hours (twitter.com/_/status/872575991394181121)
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tantek There you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro.blog
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Loqi [superfeedr] "DreamHost on Twitter: "DreamHost is thrilled to continually sponsor the monthly @indiewebcamp meetup at our #PDX office! Join: https://t.co/McXkq4GuAU #IndieWeb"" by Jonathan LaCour on 2017-06-07 https://twitter.com/DreamHost/status/872549162230755328
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tantek another 2014 site-death if someone wants to add it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heello "Heello was no longer available after June 24, 2014"
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Loqi Heello Inc.
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tantek is cleaning up the microblogging page as part of expressing why micro.blog is at least as notable as the dead stuff on there
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tantek the microblogging *Wikipedia page
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eli_oat howdy
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snarfed hi eli_oat!
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eli_oat o/