#indieweb 2017-06-17

2017-06-17 UTC
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@huffduffer This Week in the IndieWeb Audio Edition • June 10th - 16th, 2017 https://huffduffer.com/schmarty/413653 (twitter.com/_/status/875867924321456128)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Comment on Keeping conversations going on the Web by Brian Hendrickson" by Brian Hendrickson on 2017-06-17 http://andysylvester.com/2017/06/16/keeping-conversations-going-on-the-web/comment-page-1/#comment-23355
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@Kraft I have an itch to make a strong modern indieweb standards push into either Jetpack or Core. https://kraft.blog/2017/06/34284/ (twitter.com/_/status/875944595326205952)
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/onyame/status/875996153921318912
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@onyame First Show & Tell talk at #QS17 given by @aaronpk #quantifiedself https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCgp2cQWAAAbxWu.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/875996153921318912)
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Zegnat You were first to present, aaronpk? Nice!
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aaronpk Yeah! o.O
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Zegnat Well received?
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aaronpk Yeah definitely!
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aaronpk There wil be a recording posted some time later too!
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Zegnat Not surprising that something with the theme quantified-self gets recorded. Let us know when it is up :)
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@cleverdevil @_ @kraft Yes please! I've wanted core IndieWeb support in @WordPress for years. Are you at #WCEU? (https://cleverdevil.io/s/ohL9R) (twitter.com/_/status/876036757002891265)
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@kevinmarks Sounds great - are you free next weekend for indieweb summit? https://2017.indieweb.org (twitter.com/_/status/876042668920328192)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Sounds great - are you free next weekend for indieweb summit? https://2017.indieweb.org" by Kevin Marks on 2017-06-17 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/sounds-great---are-you-free-next-weekend-for-indieweb
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[miklb] I’ve been thinking about organizing a HWC here, but think I’d like to bill it as IndieWeb night instead. Thoughts? Homebrew just has too many alternate meanings here (and a club exists with similar name already).
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Zegnat [miklb], I think the IndieWeb brand is more important than the HWC branding. If you think you can get more people on by locally promoting it under a different name, I wouldn’t dare stop you.
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[miklb] it’s just that “homebrew” has a strong connotation of beer here in Tampa at least, so aside from a hombrew computer club for building your own PC, I think the term gets muddled. I could be totally wrong though. I know when I’ve tweeted about it, I get followed by beer & coffee accounts ?
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aaronpk I actually had someone show up at an HWC in Portland wanting to talk about home brewing beer
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aaronpk or maybe he was hoping there was free beer there, not sure
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@cleverdevil @Kraft @WordPress Awesome I’m cleverdevil there as well, though I’m not there often. Are you on the IndieWeb IRC or… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/876059313776852992 (twitter.com/_/status/876059313776852992)
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@Kraft @cleverdevil @WordPress Not there (yet). An outsider to the indieweb community, but ack that wide-spread adoption i… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/876059723354820608 (twitter.com/_/status/876059723354820608)
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@cleverdevil @Kraft @WordPress Yes! I’ve got some great WP folks on the team at DH that I want to get more into IndieWeb. Happy… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/876060319667322880 (twitter.com/_/status/876060319667322880)
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Zegnat ^^^ another reason for an indieweb-wp channel? Place to point people like Kraft at?
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sknebel Zegnat: seems so. starting to be convinced ;)
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[cleverdevil] Listening to Om Malik interview Matt Mullenweg at WCEU
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[cleverdevil] they're discussing the "independent web"
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[cleverdevil] 20 minutes for Q&A. Give me a good question!
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[cleverdevil] ?
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[miklb] what is his definition of “independent web”
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "his definition of “independent web”" yet. Would you like to create it?
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Zegnat [cleverdevil]: “any plans to get new federated protocols in WP core, like W3C’s webmentions, to connect with Mastodon and the greater indie web?”
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[cleverdevil] What Loqi said.
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Zegnat (name dropping W3C and Mastodon, rather than just IndieWeb might help ;) )
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[cleverdevil] I think I may bring up webmentions.
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[cleverdevil] They're talking social right now.
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[cleverdevil] If I can get to the mic I think I'm going to use the micro.blog and wordpress linkage to discuss webmention.
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Zegnat [cleverdevil], micro.blog might be closer to the WP usecase than Mastodon, true.
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[cleverdevil] Om: "How do you make the average user care about the open web? They just think the web is Facebook."
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[cleverdevil] Matt: He believes in open source but also thinks we have the "beat the closed source systems" in experience.
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[cleverdevil] "Open is a necessary, but not sufficient condition, for success."
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Zegnat ... I don’t think that answers the question how to make average users care. (Also note that average users have no stake in Open-Source vs Closed-Source at all.)
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[cleverdevil] His answer was longer and better than my summary.
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Zegnat Alright
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Zegnat this is where I believe chrisaldrich and jeremycherfas excel at pointing out whenever we are thinking in tech terms instead of user terms. “Open” means very little.
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[cleverdevil] Indeed
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sknebel And closed primarily means something when it hurts
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sknebel (something closes down, has moderation issues, is unfriendly to someone while also having most of their audience...)
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[cleverdevil] Got my question in!
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[miklb] ?
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[cleverdevil] He's "tracking those standards" but thinks user experience is more important right now and has to be done first otherwise supporting the standards won't help because no one will use them.
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[miklb] quickly forms the IndieWeb WP UX group
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[cleverdevil] Anyway it's been recorded so you can see my question and his answer at some point ?
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Zegnat cleverdevil++ for pushing standards on WP
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Loqi cleverdevil has 27 karma in this channel (37 overall)
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[miklb] my follow up to that would be why keep trackbacks/pingbacks around WP if you are worried about UX. But that’s for a blog post.
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Zegnat [miklb], I know the answer to that: backwards compatibility.
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Zegnat I think matt spoke about how WP is dropping IE7 and under now, but I haven’t heard anything about dropping old PHP versions yet ([cleverdevil], what is PHP policy these days?)
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[miklb] to use his words, “skate to where the puck is going.“ ?
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[miklb] I think it’s still 5.2
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sknebel curious what UX things "they" see as big issues
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[miklb] trackbacks/pingbacks could be ripped out of core and made into a plugin for anyone who needs to support legacy code. IMVHO, but again I will write a blog post.
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sknebel (presumably UX things that don't relate to features provided by those standards)
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[miklb] @sknebel it’s true that it is still not a seamless process to get up and going with WP & IW
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Zegnat Looking forward to the blogpost [miklb]. If you also focus on WP&IW integration, make sure to submit to news.indieweb.org so it goes in the newsletter :D
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sknebel [miklb]: I wasn't sure if "UX is more important" meant "UX in other areas is more important than adding new features/standards" or "the UX *for those standards* isn't good enough to consider them yet"
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[miklb] It will be after the video is posted for sure. I don’t want to base anything off of Twitter quotes
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Zegnat [miklb] agreed
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[miklb] Because stuff like this could be taken out of context https://twitter.com/dimensionmedia/status/876074820919808002
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@dimensionmedia “It doesn’t matter if we support every standard if nobody uses it.” @photomatt #WCEU (twitter.com/_/status/876074820919808002)
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Zegnat Hmm. I don’t think I agree with that statement at all, if it is a literal quote. Because WP is big enough and in a position to make a standard completely by itself. “nobody uses it” is moot once WordPress uses it.
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Zegnat is not a WP users and will now shutup
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davidmead miklb add me to the IndieWeb WP UX group :-)
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Zegnat Oh, now that some WP people seem to be in on chat! [miklb], [cleverdevil], davidmead: Leaders Summit will be discussing the creation of an extra IRC channel (bridged to Slack) for WordPress. Not all Leaders are WP users though, so please tell us what you think!
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Zegnat Details are on https://indieweb.org/2017/Leaders#Discussion_Channels
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sknebel Zegnat++ good call
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Loqi zegnat has 47 karma in this channel (66 overall)
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[miklb] I haven’t really chimed in on that since I thought it was basically decided that it makes sense to add a WP specific channel & bridge the existing Slack channel.
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davidmead thx zegnat. i’ll take a look. def interested
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Zegnat [miklb], not everyone was +1 on the issue, and some key players (like GWG) haven’t chimed in yet
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Zegnat Though both sknebel and I have switched from +0 to +1 now
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davidmead i’m always “breaking” indieweb stuff in WP as GWG et al can attest :-)
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Zegnat sknebel, apparently my organisational skills are on fire today :p
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GWG I thought I was the one always breaking things
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sknebel Everyone breaks ALL THE THINGS!
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/m/4ou592or.jpg
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sknebel (sorry, just wanted to make Loqi make a meme)
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sknebel (I can't post to my own website without breaking either it or someones I send a webmention to either it seems)
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@cleverdevil @photomatt My post on the subject https://cleverdevil.io/2017/user-experience-and-the-indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/876082858330398720)
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sknebel [cleverdevil]: great blog post (that I apparently missed back when you published it!)
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[cleverdevil] Thanks, @sknebel
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aaronpk I mean IMO it's a bug that there's a wordpress slack channel not bridged to IRC. The outcome of this discussion should be either create the matching IRC channel or close the Slack channel
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GWG I can agree with that
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GWG [cleverdevil]: Re your question to Matt, no one on Core seems to want to sponsor the Indieweb ideas
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[cleverdevil] I just had a conversation on Twitter with a guy from Automattic who seems interested. My core people are busy with other priorities.
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Zegnat aaronpk, definitely agreed. I am mostly polling to see what people’s reasons are for a separate WordPress channel
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GWG I don't have one, by the way
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GWG I think some people just want to not see me talking about it.
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Zegnat GWG did you see the Twitter conversation between [cleverdevil] and Kraft?
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Zegnat Also, tantek’s reason as I understood it, included using it as a way to attract WP folks, show that IndieWeb has a community for them.
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GWG I did. I thought about reaching out.
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GWG snarfed, I realized I should have asked your permission. Can I use your Bridgy icon in the Bridgy Publish plugin?
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GWG I really shouldn't make decisions when
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GWG I can't fall asleep.
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[miklb] weird, wiki ate my edit. oh well.
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sknebel ?!
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[miklb] I was adding my thoughts on the channels, clicked save, closed window, they aren’t there. Seems someone else was maybe editing page at some time?
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sknebel that shouldn't just eat them, it should complain :/
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Zegnat It should have told you if you (or me, as I am the last edit on /Leaders) were causing an edit conflict
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[miklb] maybe it did and I missed the message.
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Zegnat Loqi, why are wikis hard?
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sknebel btw, how does hosting in the wordpress world work? Do you need to have your own webspace to be able to install the indieweb plugins, or can you add them on "managed" (is that the word) hosting offers? Since Known isn't available hosted anymore, is there anything "indieweb friendly" left you can sign up to and go? (Let's ignore the issue of "you have to know which plugins to install and what they do" for now)
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[miklb] @sknebel any self hosted WP site can install the IW plugins.
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[miklb] There isn’t a an IW friendly sites that run a WP site that you can just sign up and go that I’m aware of. Though it wouldn’t be that difficult to build one.
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[miklb] Maybe when I free up some $ from my budget for more hosting I will set one up.
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[miklb] could be set up so that all of the IW plugins are pre-installed and activated with a IW compatible theme.
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Zegnat DreamHost has a one-click WP install option, apparently: https://www.dreamhost.com/hosting/wordpress/ (ping [cleverdevil])
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[miklb] wonders if I could monetize it enough to pay for the hosting and time to setup/maintain ?
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Zegnat Though obviously you would still need to pay DreamHost
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snarfed (that way lie dragons)
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[miklb] snarfed that was for me, wasn’t it? ?
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snarfed yup :P
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Zegnat At that point it might be easier to set-up a Known hosting environment again, [miklb]. Now that WithKnown only does Known for Groups and Education.
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[miklb] not sure I see the comparison
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[miklb] comparison to setting up Known vs IW friendly WP
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[cleverdevil] We plan on releasing a WP one click that is preconfigured to work with Micro.blog, and that is thus IndieWeb friendly.
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[cleverdevil] But no timeline on that yet.
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snarfed [cleverdevil]++
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Loqi cleverdevil has 28 karma in this channel (38 overall)
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[miklb] I am thinking more like wp.com signup vs installing your own, but that will be great.
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Zegnat [miklb], less plugins for Known than WP, so probably less support and maintainance that you do not get paid for
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[miklb] except I don’t know known, so wider learning curve == more time. I could just see the hosting cost being less than trivial at some point, but that could be a bridge crossed at the time.
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[miklb] first step will be to finish this theme anyway.
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GWG How is the theme going?
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[miklb] slow, but I have a bunch parts I need to hook up. That’s the goal for the weekend.
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GWG Did you have a look at the templates I set up?
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[miklb] I got mired in customizing the menu and figuring out all of the filters for them. Fixed now and can move forward.
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[miklb] I didn’t look too close, sorry.
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[miklb] I did glance at the photos changes.
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GWG I had to back a few of them up
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GWG Also, as of last night, audio and video are now kinds
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[cleverdevil] One thing that was announced today is that Gutenberg, the new WordPress editing interface, is available as a plugin for testing.
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[cleverdevil] Matt talked about how it will enable supplanting lots of things with "blocks," like shortcodes and widgets
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[cleverdevil] Potentially kinds too.
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GWG [cleverdevil]: And lots of JS
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[cleverdevil] Lots and lots and lots of it :$
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GWG It may encourage me to introduce a barebones post UI for kinds.
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GWG I experimented with one a long time ago
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[cleverdevil] Gutenberg actually looks really nice IMO
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GWG They asked me about it and Trackbacks.
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GWG But maybe I will install the plugin to see.
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[cleverdevil] Interesting.
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[cleverdevil] Just published in the plugin directory today.
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[cleverdevil] Worth a look!
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GWG I have a ticket open about separating the configuration settings for Trackbacks and Pingbacks so you can disable one but keep the other.
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GWG Their idea about parsing the content into blocks is promising
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[cleverdevil] Oh and Matt just now replied to me on twitter saying he'd give my post a read.p
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[cleverdevil] Yay!
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Loqi giggles
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GWG Great
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sknebel what is voice chat?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "voice chat" yet. Would you like to create it?
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sknebel what is talky.io?
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Loqi Talky is a video chat and screen sharing web service from andyet https://indieweb.org/talky.io
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@davidmead @collisionbend Not the #homebrewing you’re thinking of @collisionbend ? More https://indieweb.org/Homebrew_Website_Club #indieweb in… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/876115325414252545 (twitter.com/_/status/876115325414252545)
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[miklb] heh, we were discussing that very thing this morning
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@belong_io IndieWeb Summit 2017 https://ti.to/indiewebcamp/summit-2017/discount/INDIEBRIDGE (twitter.com/_/status/876178429892317184)
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Zegnat There is a Discount code for IWS?
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tantek good afternoon #indieweb!
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@johnallsopp Portland OR folks. Hotel etc recommendations for next weekend? I'll be at @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/876210385933680641)
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@bethdean @johnallsopp @indiewebcamp If anyone tells you The Jupiter DO NOT listen (twitter.com/_/status/876212128683761664)
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tantek Can any other Portland locals help out ^^^ ?
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Loqi [superfeedr] "#IndieWeb Summit is in ONE WEEK! only 4 tickets left! Want to grow the #OpenWeb? Join us: https://2017.indieweb.org/" on 2017-06-16 http://tantek.com/2017/167/t1/indieweb-summit-grow-openweb
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@t #IndieWeb Summit is in ONE WEEK! only 4 tickets left! Want to grow the #OpenWeb? Join us: https://2017.indieweb.org/ (ttk.me t4ot1) (twitter.com/_/status/876218864199229440)
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tantek This: https://twitter.com/slightlylate/status/875403602063278080
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@slightlylate Web FTW: “Our dirty little secret: Cross-platform email client with nothing but HTML” by @EtienneLem https://medium.com/missive-app/our-dirty-little-secret-cross-platform-email-client-with-nothing-but-html-aa12fc33bb02 (twitter.com/_/status/875403602063278080)
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tantek The next time someone says "but I can't do js;dr (or it makes no sense to) because I'm building a WEB APP"