#indieweb 2017-06-21

2017-06-21 UTC
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gRegorLove Bridgy Publish via webmention is failing for me, but "No log found!" when I click on the log timestamp
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snarfed gRegorLove: yeah, sorry, known issue. not sure what's up with logs right now
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snarfed the webmention response should have details, or if that's hard to get at, try interactive
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snarfed ah. your photo is too big. twitter requires <=5MB
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gRegorLove Ohh
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Loqi [superfeedr] "IndieWeb Summit 2017 is upon us this weekend. If you haven&#8217;t RSVP&#8217;d it isn&#8217;t too late OR you can participate remotely." by Chris Aldrich on 2017-06-21 http://boffosocko.com/2017/06/20/indieweb-summit-2017/
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@ChrisAldrich It's not too late to RSVP for #IndieWeb Summit 2017 or participate remotely this weekend. #edtech #domains17 http://boffosocko.com/2017/06/20/indieweb-summit-2017/ (twitter.com/_/status/877330432555175936)
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snarfed gRegorLove: fixed the log bug, thx for the nudge
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snarfed (at least for logs going forward)
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tantek good evening #indieweb
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GWG tantek: I need your out of the box thinking for a moment.
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tantek looks for a box to get out of
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GWG I'm trying to think what else I could add to the wordpress mf2 plugin
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ben_thatmustbeme gives loqi the box
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GWG I fear I'm too close to the problem
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Loqi crushes the box
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tantek GWG, it's a good question that deserves some brainstorming
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tantek probably depends on what people are trying to do with WP by default
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tantek you have the typical blogging use-case covered
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GWG I'm not sure where to start.
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tantek I think it's good to stick to adding mf2 for specific use-cases
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@scott_gruber I’m gonna do #indieweb work remotely whilst sending good vibes to friends attending @indiewebcamp in Portland this… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/877371105362587648 (twitter.com/_/status/877371105362587648)
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[miklb] what is a checkin
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Loqi A checkin is the action of checking into a location and sharing that information https://indieweb.org/checkin
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GWG [miklb]: You want to talk checkin?
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[miklb] I do.
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GWG I'm listening
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[miklb] As I mentioned, I hooked up the master branch of micropub and OYS so looking at posting them now. Currently the checkin doesn’t get a kind so throws an error when displaying the post. I’m also on fence about using simple location or just hooking up my own mapbox code to display a static map as simple location currently isn’t generating anything from the micropub post from Swarm.
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[miklb] oh, maybe it’s because it defaults to private.
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[miklb] ah, that’s right, it is because it defaults to private.
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GWG Well, that is easily fixable.
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GWG Check-in has a hidden kind.
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GWG It just isn't set.
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[miklb] like quote post was?
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GWG [miklb]: Can you export a post that came in from OYS in a WordPress XML file and send it to me?
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GWG I'll put it on my test site to try and support it
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[miklb] Sure
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GWG [miklb]: I'll try to support displaying it before I support a Post UI.
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[miklb] Would you be open to a PR for more options for customizing the mapbox map?
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GWG [miklb]: Of course.
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GWG I'm open to any enhancements that work with the philosophy of the plugin.
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[miklb] that’s why I asked first, didn’t know how “simple” you wanted to keep the plugin.
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GWG [miklb]: Simple in the UI.
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GWG I don't mind customization.
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GWG [miklb]: I'd love more map options for all or any providers.
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[miklb] cool.
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GWG [miklb]: What other ideas do you have?
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[miklb] I haven’t gotten any further. Once I start doing more, I think I’ll have more ideas on what I want to display.
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GWG [miklb]: The hard part is searchable venue support. But I may go for a list view until I can get to that.
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[miklb] I haven’t put any thought into organization like that. Just looking to start doing regular check ins.
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[miklb] regular as in consistent
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Loqi [superfeedr] "An old friend: Richard MacManus" on 2017-06-21 http://scripting.com/2017/06/21.html#a060651
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Zegnat Hmm. I find it weird that Dave Winer calls us out for having an “exclusive approach”. I guess he does it “for reasons I'm sure I don't understand”.
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cweiske "no h-entry? no indieweb." is exclusive
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[kevinmarks] we don't build on RSS, but we do translate it when others provide it
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[kevinmarks] http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Fscripting.com%2Frss.xml
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[kevinmarks] Dave framing everything as versus is less than helpful http://scripting.com/2017/06/20.html#a100647
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aaronpk he's going to defend RSS as long as he possibly can, at the expense of everything else, so i'm not really interested in engaging in any of those arguments
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aaronpk cweiske: i don't think we say "no h-entry no indieweb" anywhere, did you find an example of that somewhere?
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[colinwalker] My understanding of "indieweb" was that it was actually pretty lax - your own domain plus a.n.other indieweb technology such as webmentions. There was no "one thing" that made a site indieweb or not.
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[colinwalker] That why I have RSS, JSON Feed and h-feed - it's all about choice.
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[colinwalker] He's definitely got an RSS sized chip on his shoulder (just look at the first posts he wrote about JSON Feed) but a versus approach definitely isn't the way to go.
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cweiske when I crept up here i also felt pretty outsided because of all that current-tech-is-bad-we-reinvent-everything approach that is especially visible on atom+rss feed pages in the wiki
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cweiske I've learnt to ignore this
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aaronpk i think those pages have been cleaned up a bit since then as well
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cweiske maybe, I ignore them
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Zegnat The RSS feed page features no criticism in the descriptive paragraphs up top, and then goes on to list examples of RSS on IndieWeb.
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GWG Morning
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cweiske https://indiechat.search.cweiske.de/?q=nick%3Acweiske&page=963
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cweiske I crept up here in 2012
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Loqi guten morgen
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Zegnat Ah, I wasn’t here yet back then.
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Zegnat I think a lot of RSS criticisms have been moved to the general /feed_files page. And that applies to RSS, ATOM, JSONFeed, and even “our own” JF2
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Zegnat aaronpk: I am interested in all arguments that make it seem like indieweb takes an exclusive approach. Because any such arguments need adressing, imho
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aaronpk agreed
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[kevinmarks] it's more in https://indieweb.org/feed#Criticism
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[kevinmarks] RSS's history in links here https://indieweb.org/rss#History
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cweiske search for "superseded"
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cweiske in the wiki
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[kevinmarks] Dave on JSON: http://scripting.com/2006/12/20.html#godBlessTheReinventers "No doubt I can write a routine to parse this, but look at how deep they went to re-invent, XML itself wasn't good enough for them, for some reason (I'd love to hear the reason). Who did this travesty? Let's find a tree and string them up. Now."
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GWG At least he's consistent
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Zegnat cweiske: that (“superseded”) is a pretty good word to look up and see if we’re using it right on the wiki. Nice!
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aaronpk skimming those search results, i'd say some of them are appropriate use of the term and others should probably not claim "superseded"
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Zegnat Yeah. Those where indiewebtech1 is superseded by tech2 are fine, we can claim that. I am not sure we can claim OpenID has been superseded by any other tech just yet.
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cweiske if you remember that "superseded" on the indieweb.org wiki is the world view of a handful people and indieweb.org is not a generic encyclopedia, then it's ok
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cweiske everyone can has his opinion
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Zegnat But if it gives a feeling of being exclusionary, I don’t think the IndieWeb website should make those claims, cweiske. Even if the core group of indiewebtech-afficionados is of a certain opinion. That’s not what “the IndieWeb” is about.
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aaronpk feel free to make edits
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Zegnat I guess that circles back to: “what exactly is indieweb about” ;) I think mission statement discussion was on the agenda for some meeting somewhere?
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cweiske i'm not going to argue with tantek
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[kevinmarks] technologies never die, but advice on which to use can be helpful http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2011/02/04/133188723/tools-never-die-waddaya-mean-never
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aaronpk for OpenID, it's definitely deprecated, especially since the OpenID foundation has moved on to OpenID Connect. it's debatable what tech in general has superseded it, but in the indieweb realm, it has been superseded by IndieAuth
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Zegnat Is anyone else having problems with indieweb.org or is my internet dying?
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Zegnat Not completely happy with it, but a change like this gets rid of “superseded” as a claim, points out deprecation anyway, and gives the alternatives: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=37750&oldid=36074&rcid=37663
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[kevinmarks] it is being a bit slow, yes
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Zegnat It is truly glacial on my end... Time to leave the wiki alone for today.
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[colinwalker] @zegnat that change definitely reads better
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ben_thatmustbeme Regrading JF2 Feed, I took those into consideration when writing JF2 Feed, Its written so that JF2 Feeds should be processible directly from the h-feed. Basically its just doing the HTML processing for someone else. so while it is still a side car file, and is still more code to maintain, it can be done entirely with an external service.
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tantek yes, using an external service for it mitigates much of the sidefile maintenance issue
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@fletcher0xFF Techblog pioneer @ricmac is trying to bring back the blogroll. #indieweb http://altplatform.org/2017/06/20/building-a-blogroll-in-2017/ (twitter.com/_/status/877527777020444672)
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Zegnat ben_thatmustbeme: people have successfully turned h-feed into RSS as well. What I was trying to say was that even JF2 (being “invented here”) is subject to the same criticisms as RSS as far as side-file criticisms go. Dave seems to have the weird idea that IndieWeb is against RSS for the sake of our own technologies, which simply isn’t true.
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Zegnat But he says he has heart the arguments and doesn’t want to hear them again, so, *shrug*
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[miklb] what is RSS
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Loqi RSS is a set of XML feed file formats of varying degrees of use for syndicating time-stamped content from web sites, and sometimes used to refer more broadly to feed file formats as a whole including Atom, or even more broadly in vernacular as a synonym for feed file or even feeds or syndication as a concept https://indieweb.org/RSS
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sknebel what is Atom?
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Loqi Atom is an XML format for publishing feeds that was developed as a more formally specified alternative to RSS https://indieweb.org/Atom
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[miklb] colinwalker++ “RSS sized chip on his shoulder”
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Loqi colinwalker has 3 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme I usually just ignore Dave
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[kevinmarks] hm, I think ricmac has comment moderation on - I just webmentioned and commented on that post and neither showed up
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@dominik @mauricehh @ellenbauer @JerryLane_ I’m pretty sure you folks are just about to figure out the whole IndieWeb POSSE… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/877544719039049728 (twitter.com/_/status/877544719039049728)
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@kevinmarks The indieweb includes RSS and much more, but @davewiner is still resisting change.: http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/the-indieweb-includes-rss-and-much-more-but-davewiner-is (twitter.com/_/status/877554219858804736)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "The indieweb includes RSS and much more, but @davewiner is still resisting change." by Kevin Marks on 2017-06-21 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/the-indieweb-includes-rss-and-much-more-but-davewiner-is
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@tomwiththeweath @kevinmarks @davewiner my blog uses its rss feed to automatically send webmentions: http://herestomwiththeweather.com/2017/06/19/sending-webmentions-from-travis-ci-using-jekyll-indieweb-on-netlify/ (twitter.com/_/status/877555561939824640)
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@LukasRosenstock Another hosting provider embraces the #IndieWeb: https://www.futurehosting.com/blog/the-indieweb-movement-will-help-people-control-their-own-web-presence/ (twitter.com/_/status/877570331648684032)
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[cleverdevil] Good morning, IndieWeb!
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[cleverdevil] Thinking about writing a blog post about bringing back webrings.
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[cleverdevil] lols
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tantek what is a webring?
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Loqi A webring is a collection of websites linked together in a circular structure https://indieweb.org/webring
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tantek [cleverdevil]: ^^^ go for it :)
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[cleverdevil] Funny story, one of DreamHost's founders invented webring, and part of the money from its sale was used to fund DreamHost.
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tantek [cleverdevil]: that's worth documenting!
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[miklb] and now helping support IndieWeb, so definitely need to bring back webrings
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Zegnat ping petermolnar, your favourite web feature is coming back!
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sknebel random observation regarding frontpage copy: we don't actually mention "personal sites" at all above the fold, and even later not very clearly. Suggestions where to add that back?
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tantek sknebel: why? what does it add?
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tantek everything we add to the frontpage / homepage dilutes what is there, and makes it more "text heavy"
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tantek we worked very hard to trim the homepage down, and from anecdotal feedback, we could do even further editing
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tantek for first-timers / beginers
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tantek *beginners
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sknebel then find something to remove in it's place. From recent feedback (which of course also is just individual anecdotes), it seems like the idea of putting your own site at the center isn't all that clear in the beginning. If someone then goes to "get started", suddenly they are prompted to have a domain, which is the first time that comes up at all
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sknebel To me initial copy right now seems a bit too much about goals (control data, connections) without mentioning the how (by having a personal site that's the core of everything) in any way
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sknebel and thus instead could also be trying to sell some monolithic project, another social network (with misleading advertising, but text like this can be expected to be overly positive) or something else entirely, as long as it does something with the right buzz words
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tantek sknebel - jumping into the how has the flaw of people not understanding the why - which is often the bigger challenge
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tantek or worse, the *what*
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tantek that being said, we could likely iterate and include more specifics around "your own site"
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[miklb] what is indieweb?
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Loqi The IndieWeb is about owning your domain, using it as your primary identity to publish on your own site (optionally syndicate elsewhere), and owning your data https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb
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tantek well that has it pretty clearly
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tantek sknebel: right there in You are better connected:
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tantek "Even replies and likes on other services can come back to ***your site***"
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tantek ***emphasis added***
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tantek we don't need the literal words "personal site"
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[miklb] I thought the point was that isn’t on the home page
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tantek that is on the home page
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tantek I just quoted from the home page
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sknebel mh, I don't think that's clear enough
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[miklb] but the dfn of IndieWeb isn’t on the home page of IndieWeb
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[miklb] that seems, odd.
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[markmhendrickso i'd be in favor of webrings but only if all our sites look like this again, k? http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--dPeSSMpu--/18edh1z146cjapng.png
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sknebel I'd try to bring it in each bullet point some way. Maybe "by posting on your own site, your content stays yours and in your control" for the first and extend the last point with "On your own site, you can ..."?
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sknebel or find a place for the <dfn>, but not sure why. one could add it to the tagline, but I think a more generic tagline is good and it'd be too much
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tantek [miklb]: agreed, seems odd. could be improved
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[miklb] I’m not advocating for a direct copy of the dfn, but if that’s the canonical definition of IndieWeb, I’d think the home page could better reflect it.
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[miklb] maybe it’s time to update the dfn ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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tantek sknebel: I agree with copy-editing the bullet points for improvement! They were heavily copy edited to begin with (mostly in 2014)
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tantek miklb specifically for solving what problem?
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sknebel (also, for the first one "stays […] in your control" -> should that be "under your control", or is "in your control" also a correct form?
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tantek sknebel: yeah that's also a correct form - I believe Scott Jenson (UX / UI expert, writer) helped with the current wording
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sknebel ok, just wanted to make sure. my proposed changes good like that, or any details to change? Or should I wait for more feedback? (it's the frontpage after all)
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tantek sknebel - how about try it in a sandbox?
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tantek it's hard to see how it fits in in the context of other prose on the front page
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tantek [miklb]: re: update the dfn - are you stating a problem to be solved? or do you have a specific suggestion? either way I definitely want to encourage you to post about what "indieweb" means for *you*
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tantek that's definitely worth a short note or article and would be great to have for citing etc.
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tantek I have a feeling "indieweb" means different things to different people and I'd like get *that* diversity captured somehow.
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Zegnat Good point tantek. I will blog about what IndieWeb means to me soon(tm)
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tantek Zegnat++
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Loqi zegnat has 49 karma in this channel (72 overall)
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[miklb] tantek my perspective is if the wiki and dfn are meant to be a collective of what IndieWeb means, the home page and that definition should be more in line. But if the home page copy is meant to better reflect what it means, then perhaps the definition needs to be reworded.
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sknebel https://indieweb.org/User:Www.svenknebel.de/homepage_sandbox <- sandbox
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Zegnat I think the dfn is fine, actually. More clear than the homepage in some ways: “own your own place online” is a good statement to cover IndieWeb as I see it
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sknebel (feel free to try other changes in that sandbox, even though it lives in my userpage)
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[shanehudson] To me indieweb is a community of people that believe in longevity and have some level of distrust when it comes to other people controlling their data.
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sknebel community is another great word to fit in somewhere. "we are not trying to sell you one thing, but are a community with shared interests that colloberates"
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tantek miklb, agreed on converging or at least better consistency between homepage and dfn
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tantek [shanehudson]: yes, +1 on /longevity , and it is just one of several such /principles that this community of people has generally reflected and have rough consensus about
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tantek but you can't make a single sentence that clearly states 11 principles
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tantek and shouldn't try to
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tantek sknebel - the entire " Beyond Blogging and Decentralization " on the home page addresses community
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tantek and says it literally
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tantek so it's already "in somewhere"
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tantek also, saying things like "we are not trying to sell you one thing" is a great way to make people *more* suspicious that they are being sold something
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tantek that's the "don't think of an elephant" problem
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sknebel omg no, that wasn't a suggestion for actual wording ;)
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sknebel and yes, that's adequately reflected in the lower section
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sknebel it's still something that comes up, but probably mostly with people who haven't really spend any time looking into it
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tantek q+
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tantek heh
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eli_oat quick wiki question: how does one setup a personal template, e.g. {{t}}
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sknebel eli_oat: https://indieweb.org/Template:sparkline#How_to_make_a_small_h-card_template
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eli_oat thanks!
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@rMdes_ @davewiner @ChrisHardie And regarding #indieweb I use woodwind to follow (with RSS) indie blogs such as yours + the… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/877592156185153537 (twitter.com/_/status/877592156185153537)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Thanks Richard, this reminds me that I've been meaning to delve back into some of the blogroll functionality hiding within my WordPress install. It's not" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-06-21 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/thanks-richard-this-reminds-me-that-ive-been-meaning-to
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Comment on PressForward as an IndieWeb WordPress-based RSS Feed Reader & Pocket/Instapaper Replacement by Chris Aldrich" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-06-21 http://boffosocko.com/2016/12/31/pressforward-as-an-indieweb-wordpress-based-rss-feed-reader-pocketinstapaper-replacement/#comment-34988
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[chrisaldrich] kevinmarks: ricmac does have comment moderation on presently; looks like yours came through just after though.
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Comment on @Mentions by ricmac" by ricmac on 2017-06-21 http://boffosocko.com/mentions/#comment-34989
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Openness, rivers, the IndieWeb community" by ricmac on 2017-06-21 https://richardmacmanus.com/2017/06/22/openness-rivers-indieweb/
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@ricmac More #OpenWeb thoughts based on recent blog posts by @davewiner, @kevinmarks & @ColinWalker https://richardmacmanus.com/2017/06/22/openness-rivers-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/877655851485372416)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Also pondering how to best present @-mentions across the IndieWeb and how they should be represented in Micro.blog. Curious to hear your thoughts, @Manton. Thinking" by Jonathan LaCour on 2017-06-21 https://cleverdevil.io/2017/also-pondering-how-to-best-present--mentions-across-the-indieweb
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@Kraft great to have you involved! It was good to hear @photomatt's views at WCEU. I think WP can and should lead by example in" by Jonathan LaCour on 2017-06-21 https://cleverdevil.io/2017/kraft-great-to-have-you-involved-it-was-good-to
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gRegorLove Good afternoon, indieweb
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snarfed hi gRegorLove!
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gRegorLove I'm heading to Portland tomorrow! I should consider packing.
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snarfed lol me too
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GWG I've been packing for a few days
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gRegorLove Sheesh, Twitter. https://twitter.com/FxSql/status/877448726486278146
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@FxSql So twitter is moving "queer" into qualifiers for tweets not showing in notifications or in reply threads https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DC1S69wU0AABRK8.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/877448726486278146)
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gRegorLove (see screenshot)
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dougbeal Hi Indieweb
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GWG dougbeal: Howdy
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dougbeal Have you seen the PDX forcast? 98 Saturday, 99 Sunday. ?
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gRegorLove That's cooler than last year's IWS :)
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GWG I blame aaronpk
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gRegorLove haha
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Loqi ahahahaha
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GWG I told him to make sure the weather was better.
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schmarty Oops, I packed for cooler weather than that! Ah well. :)
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