#indieweb 2017-06-22

2017-06-22 UTC
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@eli_oat #indieweb podcast club? https://eli.li/entry.php?id=20170622003646 (twitter.com/_/status/877687215392010240)
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[terminalpixel] I'm here in Portland just now. No idea what the weather is usually like but it seems not too bad right now
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@ChrisAldrich @Kraft #Indieweb @WordPress users unite! https://twitter.com/Kraft/status/877377087455117316 (twitter.com/_/status/877695201187254272)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "#Indieweb @WordPress users unite! https://twitter.com/Kraft/status/877377087455117316" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-06-22 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/indieweb-wordpress-users-unitekraftstatus877377087455117316
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[chrisaldrich] !tell GWG, pfefferle, miklb I know some saw preliminary tweets earlier, but just in case you missed it: https://kraft.blog/2017/06/the-open-web/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk Back in Portland! It's quite warm here!
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tantek when did FB add color / gradient / pattern backgrounds to posts?!?!
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tantek I'm wondering if people are seeing this
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tantek and if so, is it in the API for POSSEIng somehow
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aaronpk A few weeks ago?
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tantek seriously!?!
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aaronpk Maybe longer
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tantek ok so they are turning into MySpace
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aaronpk what is background color?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "background color" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk I think that's what they call it
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GWG aaronpk: I'm blaming you for the weather. I asked for you to take care of it.
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Loqi GWG: [chrisaldrich] left you a message 1 hour, 23 minutes ago: I know some saw preliminary tweets earlier, but just in case you missed it: https://kraft.blog/2017/06/the-open-web/
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tantek it's more than a color
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tantek does snarfed know about this?
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aaronpk GWG i was only able to negotiate a couple degrees lower this year. Maybe I can talk them down a little more next year
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GWG aaronpk: It will be good preparation for my next stop
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GWG What is an apprentice?
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Loqi An apprentice, in the context of the indieweb, is an IndieWebCamp participant who has not yet setup a personal domain with IndieAuth, but is passionate about owning their identity & data on the web and dedicated to doing so, with the help of a creator https://indieweb.org/apprentice
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GWG Is there a term for someone who is interested but not passionate?
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tantek GWG, curious?
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tantek wait what brought up apprentice?
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GWG tantek, I have a friend who moved to Washington State, he decided to stop by to see me and RSVPed for Sunday
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GWG I am not sure what he will do
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tantek GWG, perhaps help him setup his own domain name
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tantek and website
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tantek like we did with Emma in NYC
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tantek in re-reading https://kraft.blog/2017/06/the-open-web/ and the response handling - it looks even more cleaned up / neat than before!
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GWG tantek: That was what I was thinking.
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@FakeUnicode @annapickard @SlackHQ Also used by @GitHub @Facebook @Google and others: https://indieweb.org/reacji Maybe should ave… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/877728924234534912 (twitter.com/_/status/877728924234534912)
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tantek wow
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tantek checks our search rank for reacji
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tantek awesome, 2nd G result
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aaronpk Whoa
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tantek above twitter and medium. yeah, take that silos :D
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tantek also likons lol
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tantek (see the rest of that tweet ^^^ )
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@treitnauer From static site to blog, to social media, to IndieWeb publishing: https://reitnauer.com/updates/static-site-blog-social-media-indieweb-publishing/ (twitter.com/_/status/877735247957372932)
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@treitnauer From static site to blog, to social media, to IndieWeb publishing https://reitnauer.com/updates/static-site-blog-social-media-indieweb-publishing/ https://twitter.com/treitnauer/status/877735589109354496/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/877735589109354496)
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tantek very cool ^^^
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kraftbj I was actually starting to dig in to see about support reacji/likons/reaction emoji via the WP webmention and semantic linkback plugin alongside the emoji reactions feature plugin for WP ( https://make.wordpress.org/core/2016/03/07/reactions/ )
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kraftbj it adds a comment type of `reactions` to WP and if the webmentions, et al plugins could all play nicely together, that'd be cool
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kraftbj plus have a cleaner display (or option of) IMO than listing an emoji reaction with the same weight of a reply.
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kraftbj the feature plugin is a bit quiet, but I chatted with Gary tonight and it's still in the mind to move forward on... just backburnered for now. along with webmentions, both are solid use cases for pushing WP further along on custom comment types, which all thrown together I think part of moving the whole ship forward
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GWG kraftbj: So, you think Semantic Linkbacks should switch from using meta for the types to the comment type field?
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GWG We've discussed it at times.
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kraftbj GWG: It might be too early for it, but i think custom comment types, once fully baked, will have more staying power
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GWG kraftbj: But might be better to do it now to avoid conversion later. Already we'd have to convert old mentions.
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kraftbj comment type is part of the wp_comments table which is probably more performant at scale if we want to sort by it vs commentmeta, but i haven't ran any baselines for that thought
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kraftbj I would lean toward custom types, but I just don't want to suggest it today and have something wrt custom comment types change that would negatively impact it
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GWG kraftbj: Should be interesting to see what happens over time.
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kraftbj once we get that conversation restarted and a bit further down, I would feel more comfortable suggesting it.
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GWG kraftbj: How do you feel about post's supporting location?
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kraftbj the conversion would need to be done either way so i don't immediately see a need to rush the decision on your end re types
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kraftbj hmm
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kraftbj I generally like the thought. I haven't dove into implementation (WP.com vs anything else out there right now)
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kraftbj it would be really interesting for lifestreams, photoblogs, travel blogs, etc and if there is some type of standard data storage for it, that would be great
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kraftbj though, tbh, post location has been broken on WordPress.com for a bit of time now and there's been little outcry. Comes back to display -- it's not displayed so often that I don't know if people realize it isn't working.
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GWG kraftbj: That's another one of my projects I'm going to be putting some love toward next. I rotate around.
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kraftbj GWG: Where's the repo? Would like to keep pulse of that one too.
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GWG https://github.com/dshanske/simple-location
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Loqi [dshanske] simple-location: Adds Basic Location Support to Wordpress
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kraftbj well, your entire portfolio really but yeah :)
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GWG It's compatible with WordPress Geodata.
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kraftbj that's great
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kraftbj I'm heading to bed. I was hoping to get PuSHPress up into git tonight, but the git svn from the plugins repo is dreadfully slow checking through all of the revisions.
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kraftbj thanks for the link and all of your work on this stuff already. You're in virtually every repo or trac instance :)
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GWG kraftbj: The benefit of a narrow focus.
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kraftbj Oh -- with the syndicated links -- one thing slowing me down on that from the WP.com side is we're about to release a feature to re-Publicize and scheduled re-Publicize, which makes the existing data storage method for Publicize links to not scale
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kraftbj so what I thought would be a really easy push through is slightly more complicated. Not a ton, but enough to caution me on moving too fast with it with the change being new and unreleased.
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GWG kraftbj: I'm following the issue to see what ends up happening.
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kraftbj the concern on our end with the old storage system is if someone, say, re-publishes to twitter 100 times on a post. That's going to really build up the size of the post meta and with serialziing that.. bleh
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kraftbj when we get to it, we can hash it out in GH, but wonder if there's an upper-limit to enforce (say only 25, 50, etc URLs per post or something like that)
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GWG That seems like a lot of reposting.
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kraftbj oh yeah, it is and total edge case, but we get folks like that
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kraftbj "If I don't post my blog URL every 10 minutes, someone might miss it!"
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GWG Oy
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kraftbj QA engineer walks into a bar, orders a drink, orders 4x10^3 drinks, orders -1 beers, orders a null, etc.
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kraftbj anyhow, really heading to bed. I'll catch you again soon! Cheers!
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[miklb] good morning
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Loqi [miklb]: [chrisaldrich] left you a message 3 hours, 24 minutes ago: I know some saw preliminary tweets earlier, but just in case you missed it: https://kraft.blog/2017/06/the-open-web/
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GWG Morning, [miklb]
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GWG The Summit approaches
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[miklb] It does.
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dougbeal Good morning [miklb]
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[miklb] well, technically it’s 00:48 where I am ?
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[miklb] but howdy!
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Loqi [superfeedr] "22/06/2017, 06:20" by Colin Walker on 2017-06-22 https://colinwalker.blog/2017/06/22/22062017-0620/
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Improving the php-mf2 parser" on 2017-06-22 https://gregorlove.com/2017/06/improving-the-php-mf2-parser/
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gRegorLove omg, that's the first time that's worked in a while. superfeedr didn't seem to be catching my pushes to my gregorlove.cusperfeedr.com hub before
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gRegorLove Despite that typo, I was definitely getting the domain right before too :)
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dougbeal Time for bed, getting up early to catch the train to Portland o/
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@kongaloosh Today marks two years of #indieweb for me. I've been reflecting on my experience joining the community and my plans… http://kongaloosh.com/e/2017/6/22/hello-world (twitter.com/_/status/877769001635532800)
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@johnjohnston I really like the idea of an [IndieWeb podcast club](https://eli.li/entry.php?id=20170622003646%29 (or any other ... http://johnjohnston.info/blog/i-really-like-the-idea-of-an-indieweb-podcast-clubhttps/ (twitter.com/_/status/877769780329099264)
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@johnjohnston I really like the idea of an [IndieWeb podcast club](https://eli.li/entry.php?id=20170622003646%29 (or any other ... http://johnjohnston.info/blog/i-really-like-the-idea-of-an-indieweb-podcast-clubhttps/ (twitter.com/_/status/877770722571157504)
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@kongaloosh @johnjohnston This is a really good idea. I Would totally love to be able to listen to people talk about current #indieweb projects. (twitter.com/_/status/877771446415638530)
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@mathpunk @plexus Here's a thing meant to be pingbacks but not so spammish https://indieweb.org/Webmention (twitter.com/_/status/877778211559559168)
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pfefferle good morning
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Loqi pfefferle: [chrisaldrich] left you a message 5 hours, 46 minutes ago: I know some saw preliminary tweets earlier, but just in case you missed it: https://kraft.blog/2017/06/the-open-web/
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Loqi guten morgen
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[kevinmarks] reacji << http://www.kevinmarks.com/notinourstars.html
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Loqi ok, I added "http://www.kevinmarks.com/notinourstars.html" to the "See Also" section of /reacji
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Loqi Not in our Stars 2015-11-08
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[colinwalker] Morning all.
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[colinwalker] gregorlove - same here, mybpost just about yours is the first one I remember seeing in a while.
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pfefferle !tell chrisaldrich this is great news, thanks for sharing!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb!
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Zegnat Kongaloosh++ for reflecting on your time with IndieWeb
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Loqi kongaloosh has 12 karma
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pfefferle !tell kraftbj good to have you on board, I am curious to see IndieWeb support in WordPress.com!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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pfefferle !tell kraftbj let me know if we can join forces on the pubsubhubbub implementation: https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/wordpress-pubsubhubbub
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [pubsubhubbub] wordpress-pubsubhubbub: WebSub/PubSubHubbub for WordPress
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@EchoChamberUncu I really like the idea of an IndieWeb podcast club (or any other kind of podcast club). I’ve been listening… | john https://educationechochamberuncut.wordpress.com/2017/06/22/i-really-like-the-idea-of-an-indieweb-podcast-club-or-any-other-kind-of-podcast-club-ive-been-listening-john/ (twitter.com/_/status/877796399844294656)
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@daiyitastic @plexus omg Arne you gotta check out the indieweb!! look into webmentions <3 (twitter.com/_/status/877805559793065984)
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calumryan !tell barryf could you confirm venue details for HWC London next week?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar morning
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sknebel good morning!
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petermolnar so, a few days ago the topic of blogrolls emerged in the chat channel which got me thinking (catching up with the past week): we do miss this from our sites. Nearly all silos do 'following' or something similar where you can access people you follow. And indeed, I could easily get the list of people I follow per silo, add the people I 'indie' follow and display it on, for example, /following
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petermolnar which is exactly what I'm going to do
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petermolnar it makes sense to see that list merged
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petermolnar what is following?
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Loqi follow is a common button in silo UIs (like Twitter) that adds updates from that profile (typically a person) to the stream shown in an integrated reader, and sometimes creates a follow post either in the follower's stream ("… followed …" or "… is following …") thus visible to their followers, and/or in the notifications of the user being followed ("… followed you") https://indieweb.org/following
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sknebel I was reminded by the discussion of pre-blogroll "recommended links" sections on homepages, which might become part of bookmark handling. not quite the same as follow, but similar
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petermolnar similar, yes, but following a feed/website is definitely different from bookmarking a certain article
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sknebel yes, I specifically meant recommending an entire site
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sknebel (It really depends on presentation if something is recommended or not. I wouldn't "recommend" everything and everyone I follow, just as bookmarks can be recommendations or just personal logs)
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petermolnar I think about bookmarks as 'useful stuff'
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petermolnar things I like are favs (or likes, depending on silo)
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petermolnar and there people/sites I follow to get those useful and interesting things out of
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petermolnar but I do miss 'blogrolls' links
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petermolnar so to me, it would make sense to resurrect it and rename it to 'following'
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Zegnat I'm not even sure it needs to be renamed to be resurrected. But when you have something on your site please put it on the wiki as example!
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Zegnat I am super in favour of reworking the blogroll wiki page btw
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sknebel yeah, that's kind of my question. I always took blogroll as a kind of recommendation, a list of everyone I follow (esp if stuff like twitter is in there) is not as strong
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Zegnat Hopefully ricmac will call in during IWS. Would love to hear why he thought IndieWeb was somehow against blogroll.
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Zegnat Interesting thought, sknebel. You don't think you reading someone's content means you would necessarily recommend that content to others?
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sebsel well there is the social obligation to follow some people who you don't like to follow
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sebsel friends vs following
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sebsel Ello had a nice UI for that
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sebsel what is ello?
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Loqi Ello is microblogging silo similar to Twitter or Tumblr for posting short status update notes and pictures https://indieweb.org/Ello
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sknebel even less negative, the friends that I like to follow, but know that my website visitors wouldn't care about what they do
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sknebel because they only are interesting to me because I have a personal connection to what they do
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sebsel hm, I don't see it on there, but they had/have two feeds: following and noise. and other people could not see who was on which list.
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petermolnar sknebel recommend and follow are two very different things in my read
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sknebel exactly
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sknebel I took a blogroll more as "recommend", so a "following" list would be something different?
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sknebel but I don't have a very strong idea of what a blogroll is
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petermolnar I've always considered blogroll the same as following but now that you're questioning it, it indeed needs clarification
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petermolnar anyone knows the origin of blogroll?
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sebsel hm, seems like Ello changed a lot since I last logged in, I can't find the 'follow vs noise' distinction anymore. no time to document now
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sknebel what is blogroll?
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Loqi A blogroll is a list of other sites that you read, are a follower of, or recommend https://indieweb.org/blogroll
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sknebel the history section there links a "first use", but that's not clearer
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petermolnar wow, that's a live link from 2000!
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petermolnar "Unlike other areas of blogging, where today we see great new services (such as in the commenting space) nothing has seemingly popped up to replace blogrolls." - this is from 2008 (http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/blogrolls_rip/); well, here we are, in 2017, and we have 'follow'. There, the internet fixed it.
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calumryan I think Google+ Circles orginally provided features for sharing group feeds as well as the current/existing features for following people/organisations
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petermolnar huh. Flickr doesn't seem to have an api endpoint to list followers/following
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petermolnar that is surprising
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petermolnar ah
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petermolnar it does, it's called flickr.contacts.getList
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sknebel heh http://www.blogprojekt.de/2017/05/30/blog-design/ist-die-blogroll-noch-sinnvoll-so-bekommt-man-diese-wieder-zurueck/ (one month old article asking if blogrolls are still useful
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cweiske .. in the typical this-blog-is-for-money shallow way
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sknebel at least partially, yes (and the same is true for a lot of other resources about them)
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petermolnar EUNKNOWNLANGUAGE
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petermolnar can someone summarize what the article is about, please?
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petermolnar for those who don't speak german
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petermolnar (I don't trust gtranslate when it comes to German, sometimes they manage to leave 'not' out, completely turning the meaning around)
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@synvila IndieWeb podcast club https://eli.li/entry.php?id=20170622003646 (twitter.com/_/status/877833354976022528)
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[kevinmarks] the whole xfn model was for marking up blogrolls/follow lists with more information
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[kevinmarks] blogroll << https://gmpg.org/xfn/intro
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Loqi ok, I added "https://gmpg.org/xfn/intro" to the "See Also" section of /blogroll
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[kevinmarks] "Delusions of Grandeur XFN provides the basis for a world-wide distributed network of personal connections. "
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[kevinmarks] pours one out for the social graph API
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Zegnat petermolnar, as that German article seems to start with the question whether blogrolls are any help in increasing traffic I am not sure if it warrants further reading or is just another SEO fluff piece ...
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Zegnat “many misused the blogroll to sell or rent out link space” “Google looks sceptical upon these [type of sidebar] links that show up on every page”
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cweiske seo magic foo, with no data to backup such claims
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Zegnat Feels like a SEO piece, and that’s only the “what is” section of the article
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Zegnat Most SEO has no backup for claims, because they keep guesstimating at search engine algorithms.
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Zegnat What is SEO?
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Loqi SEO is an acronym for Search Engine Optimization which refers to the practice and results of publishing pages and permalinks on the web in order to rank better (earlier/higher) in web search engine results https://indieweb.org/seo
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Zegnat SEO << http://powazek.com/posts/2090
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Loqi ok, I added "http://powazek.com/posts/2090" to the "See Also" section of /SEO
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Zegnat “Spammers, Evildoers, and Opportunists” by Derek Powazek ;)
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Zegnat sebsel: “friends vs following” is an interesting distinction. On Facebook, following something is a bigger recommendation than “friending”.
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tantek is it?
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Zegnat From my perspective, definitely. Following has no social pressure, friending has.
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Zegnat E.g. I am friends with several relatives, but I have specifically unfollowed them because I am not interested in the content they produce.
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tantek That sounds more like /mute
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tantek I think "unfollow" has additional implications, like you don't want them to message you
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Zegnat You stay friends with an aunt so she can message you and invite you to events et.al. And because your mom would get angry when you unfriend her sister, or other such talk could happen within the family.
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Zegnat No. On Facebook, following is the act of subscribing to a page or person's content.
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Zegnat When you friend someone on Facebook you automatically also follow them. You can then unfollow them if you do not want to subscribe to their content.
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tantek sounds like details we should write up on /friend#Silo_Examples
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Zegnat So in Facebook terms: being friends allows for communications and establishes a social link (possibly marked up with relational data), following says you are interested in their content
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tantek what is friend
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Loqi friending (AKA add friend or the verb to friend) is a general term applied to the various silo user interactions with sites regarding reciprocal friendship https://indieweb.org/friend
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sknebel re (sry petermolnar, went to lunch, but Zegnat basically covered it, I found it primarily interesting because it was really recent and had a poll)
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sknebel what is follow?
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Loqi follow is a common button in silo UIs (like Twitter) that adds updates from that profile (typically a person) to the stream shown in an integrated reader, and sometimes creates a follow post either in the follower's stream ("… followed …" or "… is following …") thus visible to their followers, and/or in the notifications of the user being followed ("… followed you") https://indieweb.org/follow
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tantek Zegnat - your explanation of Facebook's friend vs follow is one of the clearest and shortest I have seen. Definitely add something like it to /friend#Facebook and maybe a bit to /follow#Facebook too!
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GWG Morning
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petermolnar hi GWG
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petermolnar btw WordPress has an interesting stand on blogroll: it's disabled by default in the core but requires a single line to re-activate it as the code is still there...
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GWG Greetings. Anything new on your site?
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Zegnat I’ll document that description on the wiki after lunch, tantek :)
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petermolnar mine? I've given up on POSSE with the current, semi-static implementation - on which I'll need to write an entry sometimes - and instead I started raking the favs/likes/whatevers together following PESOS ideoligy
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GWG Interesting
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petermolnar the constant api changes are making POSSE hard and disappointing
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petermolnar even though brid.gy is there
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[colinwalker] The whole thing with blogrolls and discoverability is why I did my webmention directory. It's almost a blogroll in reverse - not people I necessarily follow but people who have interacted with me.
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sknebel hm, I should have my webmention sender export some kind of list (with frequency) as well
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Zegnat sknebel: frequency mentions per what? Mentions per domain?
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sknebel Zegnat: heh, good point
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sknebel per author of post referenced?
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sknebel ideally?
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sknebel (which will often fall back or be equivalent to per domain)
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petermolnar you got me thinking on trying to find my 'followers' by feed pulls from ips and ptr lookups :)
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Zegnat Author URL would be interesting, agreed!
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Zegnat Interestingly, that would mean a mention from you to http://microformats.org/2017/06/20/evolving-for-12-years will bump my personal page on vanderven.se/martijn on the list and not register microformats.org at all :/
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Loqi [Martijn] Evolving for 12 Years
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sknebel Zegnat: true. but if I'm recording people (as [colinwalker] referenced) more accurate. possibly valuable to have both in some way
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@sebastiangreger Wed 28.6. 19:00: 10th (!) Homebrew Website Club Berlin; "anniversary meetup" with an intro to #webmentions http://sebastiangreger.net/2017/06/homebrew-website-club-berlin-10-on-28-jun-2017/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/877855915860348929)
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sknebel Kongaloosh: btw, interesting point about feature fatigue and your lessons learnt from that in your recent post, I probably should take good note of that one
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Zegnat You’d probably want a rel="home" URL and the author URL then. That should cover it all for aggregation? Too bad not a lot of places have rel="home".
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Zegnat Hmm, the microformats.org blog post does not have a rel="home" ... Did that rel ever catch on?
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@desparoz ? Openness, rivers, the IndieWeb community — https://richardmacmanus.com/2017/06/22/openness-rivers-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/877858726471794688)
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[kevinmarks] Kongaloosh - reading that it sounded like you felt that you had been gamified and doing things for list completion (extrinsic) rather than personal need (intrinsic) which is a potential problem with https://indieweb.org/indiemark and maybe even with indiewebify.me
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Zegnat I still wonder if that is another overall wiki presentation issue, [kevinmarks]. We are very good at listing technologies, but also very good at forgetting /principles
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Zegnat Thoughts?
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[kevinmarks] indiemark << https://kongaloosh.com/e/2017/6/22/hello-world describes problems with an extrinsic to do list like indiemark
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Loqi ok, I added "https://kongaloosh.com/e/2017/6/22/hello-world describes problems with an extrinsic to do list like indiemark" to the "See Also" section of /IndieMark
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Loqi [Alex Kearney] Reflections on Two Years of #Indieweb Today marks two years of #indieweb for me. I've been reflecting on my ex...
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[kevinmarks] that friending description is very helpful - historically on twitter a 'friend' was defined as a mutual follow I think, whereas as you say there is a bit more nuance there.
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Zegnat Alright, tried to make it even more nuanced.
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Zegnat tantek, looks like /follow#Facebook already detailed the difference
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[colinwalker] kevinmarks that was an interesting read and something I think is quite common. I feel there is a misunderstanding as to what an indieweb site actually is. It doesn't mean you have to have all the features. Definitely agree with @zegnat that it's more about the principles.
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Zegnat My favourite indieweb site: http://emmahodge.org/
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Loqi Emma Hodge
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[kevinmarks] see also http://kitmarks.com/
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[kevinmarks] though he has expanded that one a bit
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[colinwalker] Wasn't it snarfed who had a definition of what qualifies as "indieweb"? The one that said something your own site plus one of x,y or z?
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sknebel I think that was very technical, for his mapping/crawler/... project
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[colinwalker] It just seemed to be a pretty simple definition iirc
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sknebel [colinwalker]: "consider a page part of the IndieWeb if it has a microformats2 class or advertizes a webmention or micropub endpoint."
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Zegnat That seems to be what people think the true definition is (pushing the IndieWeb tech stack). But I don't agree with it. I don't have a better oneliner yet though
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Zegnat kitmarks.com is another great example, kevinmarks​!
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sknebel Zegnat: that's really for a technical purpose, where stuff like "you are publishing on your own domain" can't really be verified
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Replied to:IndieWeb podcast club" by Srikanth Perinkulam on 2017-06-22 https://srikanthperinkulam.com/2017/06/22/ipc/
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Reflections on Two Years of #Indieweb" https://kongaloosh.com/e/2017/6/22/hello-world (from https://aaronparecki.com/2017/06/22/7/)
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jackjamieson Hi everyone, I've been reading about IndieWeb for the past year or so, and I'm coming to the summit this weekend. But I've never posted here, so I thought I'd say hi.
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sknebel welcome!
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jackjamieson Thanks!
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Zegnat Hi jackjamieson!
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Zegnat wonders how much overlap there is between IWS and this channel
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jackjamieson What's IWS?
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Zegnat IndieWeb Summit
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jackjamieson Ah, right
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Zegnat What is IWS?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/IWS
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Zegnat Hmm, Loqi doesn’t know?
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Zegnat What is IndieWeb Summit?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb_Summit
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@WorkingWriter Going to be in Portland OR this weekend? Still time to go to the #IndieWeb Summit. Wish I could be there... https://indieweb.org/2017 (twitter.com/_/status/877886433087848448)
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jackjamieson I guess Loqi doesn't pick up "What's" instead of "What is"
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Zegnat Anyone know why the summary there doesn’t get picked up by Loqi? sknebel?
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Zegnat true, jackjamieson. But I expected Loqi to tell me what IWS is.
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Zegnat Like so:
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Zegnat What is HTML?
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Loqi HTML (HyperText Markup Language) is the language used to create web pages, thus one of the building blocks of the IndieWeb https://indieweb.org/HTML
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sknebel What is next-hwc?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/next-hwc
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sknebel When is IWS?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/IWS
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sknebel hm
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sknebel no idea, doesn't like events?
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jackjamieson Hmm
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tantek When is next-hwc?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/next-hwc
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tantek hmm
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Zegnat when is next-hwc?
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club Meetup is on 2017-06-28 at Starbucks Sony-Center https://indieweb.org/next-hwc
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Zegnat You have to do lowercase, tantek
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Zegnat when/When is broken (known bug)
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sknebel what is IWC Berlin?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/IWC_Berlin
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[colinwalker] Thanks @sknebel
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[colinwalker] @zegnat I agree, it's definitely more about the ownership but that quote is useful to illustrate that not ALL technologies are required, not everything HAS to be implemented.
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@fletcher0xFF My tweet became part of an IRC discussion where ragtag #indieweb rebels plot their next move. Viva la revolución! https://indieweb.org/irc/2017-06-21 (twitter.com/_/status/877903709400948736)
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petermolnar I hereby start an indieweb-poll: is 'following' the same as 'blogroll' used to be or they should not be compared? If the latter, how would you describe the difference?
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petermolnar (I should post this and allow webmentions on it, shouldn't I?)
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aaronpk i always thought a blogroll was a more carefully curated list of blogs i am reading
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petermolnar I always treated my blogroll as my list of followed blogs
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Kongaloosh sknebel: I would reccomend trying to avoid it! That being said, it didn't really dissuade me. I think part of what made it challenging for me to start was understthanding what I personally wanted and needed when there's so much out there for you to implement.
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sknebel Kongaloosh: yes, your post has been a good reminder to spend time on figuring that out instead of trying to follow all the paths at the same time
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@martijnvdven @fletcher0xFF As part of the #indieweb IRC fleet I thank you for making sure we don’t forget the power of the blogrolls! ? (twitter.com/_/status/877905692597788672)
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Kongaloosh it's challenging sometimes, because you need to do things and use your stuff to figure that out
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ben_thatmustbeme i think there is a difference in perception of the two petermolnar, subscribing to a blog has a curated list of longer reads, while 'following' someone is usually getting info on what they are doing, liking, sharing. more like the firehose. they may end up the same in the way they are implmented, but i feel they are different
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Kongaloosh [kevinmarks]: yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way, but that was kind-of how it felt.
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sknebel regarding blogroll: I also see it more as a selection, both for size and quality reasons. My blogroll might include individual twitter accounts, but it never would have everyone I follow on twitter
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Kongaloosh I started with indiemark and indiewebify me
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Kongaloosh and used those to startup my site
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Kongaloosh but I rarely use webmentions, or even linked-data notifications
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Kongaloosh I think implementing them taught me a lot
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Zegnat petermolnar: I think I have to go with aaronpk on curation. While I would be happy to recommend other people to follow what I follow, there are several reasons for not publishing an entire list of things I follow. I would expect a blogroll to be a subset of things I follow. (If I don’t follow it, I should not have it on my blogroll.)
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petermolnar so it's like beetle vs insect (every beetle is and insect but not all insect is a beetle)
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[miklb] Ragtag indieweb rebels plot their next move sounds like a fun movie idea.
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eli_oat Chased by the dastardly lord silo
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eli_oat wielding a personal info sucking vacuum
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[miklb] Lol
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Zegnat Everyone to the bridge, stat! Facebook is on the move!
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aaronpk Facebook: resistance is futile
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tantek except Instagram has been kept largely intact
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tantek only real compromise there has been the switch to use FB venue db instead of 4sq
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eli_oat and stories everywhere
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eli_oat ?
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eli_oat at the top of my feed was a-okay, but in the middle, too!?
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eli_oat why oh why
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petermolnar "we are the Zuckerbergs. You will be assimilated." ?
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eli_oat petermolnar, where that falls apart is that Zuck is obsessed with consolidating power, the borg distribute it :P
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tantek the funny analogies sound more like chat ;)
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petermolnar stories in the middle of a feed? Yo, dawg, I've heard you like stories, so I put stories in your stories.
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eli_oat stories all the way down
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petermolnar well, the Borg had their Queen
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Zegnat BTW, tantek, I saw you noticed background colours on FB posts? But did you know there are two *exclusive* backgrounds for Pride Month? ;)
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Zegnat http://imgur.com/a/PoSaf
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Zegnat Exclusive in the same way as the rainbow reacji, I believe.
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Zegnat thanks sebsel for getting him in on the sweet, sweet Facebook rainbows
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Zegnat Do people have an opinion on silos making things like this exclusive to a subset of their users?
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tantek zegnat, we should document that
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tantek I've been documenting seasonal or event based features on various silos like that
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tantek let me see if I can find them
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Zegnat I think seasonal can make sense. I am conflicted on the way they did this for pride by limiting who could use it.
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tantek e.g. https://indieweb.org/Google_Maps#Temporary_Features
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Zegnat Temporary Features sounds like a good heading.
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Zegnat Otherwise, just refer to the bridgy commit log for when new reacji were introduced ;)
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tantek Zegnat, note the specific subheads below for particular "events" as it were
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tantek lol
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Zegnat This is the funniest thing I have seen today! https://twitter.com/fletcher0xFF/status/877914348449972224 - thank you Facebook for using *my face* as the representative image for the chatlog
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@fletcher0xFF @martijnvdven You must be a rebel leader, based on the expanded Facebook preview photo on my post. https://www.facebook.com/fletcher0xFF/posts/112293149383517?pnref=story (twitter.com/_/status/877914348449972224)
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dougbeal|iOS Instagram inflicted a horror movie ad in the middle of stories.
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aaronpk do i need to make some featured image for the chat logs so fb doesn't do that?
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Zegnat aaronpk: maybe? Put the IndieWeb logo as featured image in some way? For the few times people link to us on Facebook and Facebook decides to fetch a random display picture I am not sure it is even worth the time to fix
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Zegnat Don’t go fix it for my sake though.
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Zegnat This reminds me of when the logs were projected during IWC Düsseldorf 2016 and I was transcribing to chat so my face was all over it
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aaronpk works on sending an IWS update
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Kongaloosh Zegnat: I get the feeling that a lot of these "exclusive seasonal things" are for labelling purposes
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Kongaloosh making large datasets is hard if you want to do supervised learning
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eli_oat I bet they also help with demographics segmentation, by tracking who is using what
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Kongaloosh if you have your users, say, tagging posts which are "pridefull" you can start modelling queer-topics
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eli_oat bingo
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Kongaloosh just like if you have users putting bounding boxes around faces to tag photos, you could use that to train facial recognition
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Zegnat Sure. But the way to get access to these reacji and backgrounds is by specifically liking a Facebook-run LGBTQ page.
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Zegnat So tracking of the reacji and background after that is a bit superfluous
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Kongaloosh I'm not so sure
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Kongaloosh what if I want to know "how queer this post is"
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Kongaloosh or
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Kongaloosh something similar
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eli_oat but they were used in protest, too
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Kongaloosh oh?
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eli_oat yeah, like folks flooding anti PP posts
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Kongaloosh anti as in "we don't like pride things" or "we reject facebook co-opting pride"
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Zegnat I haven’t seen anyone angry at Facebook for introducing these. Only over the exclusivity. But people are mostly OK to like a page to get access.
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Kongaloosh i've seen some people get grumpy about facebook for doing this
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Kongaloosh mostly from the machine learning side
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Kongaloosh but some were also pointint out that they couldn't access it because of the country they were in
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Zegnat Is there any proof of that? I know a lot of people didn’t realise the requirements at first (including me).
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[kevinmarks] if you don't give them an og-image, facebook will pick the first one on the page that meets their size criteria
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Zegnat sebsel joked (or maybe he did it?!) about travelling to Amsterdam to see if location was limiting him from using the rainbow reacji
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Kongaloosh Zegnat: Nooo clue. I don't really write a whole-lot of FB anymore. I just saw people whinging in passing.
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Zegnat I am not deep enough into the online LGBTQ+ community to know what is happening there either.
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Zegnat Part of the community by orientation only, not by participation ;)
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Zegnat I will add these Pride backgrounds and the Reacji to the wiki though
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[kevinmarks] Kongaloosh I think when indiemark was put together we hadn't been through enough of the gamification negatives as conveyed by Kathy Sierra and Kevin Werbach
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Kongaloosh tbf, indiemark was a guiding star that helped me find a path forwards
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Kongaloosh like, it was the one page I referenced a lot when I started a lot
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Kongaloosh because it helped me come up with requirements
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Kongaloosh and it extensively links to the other parts of the site
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[kevinmarks] right, that was the goal, but the points system is a bit awkward.
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Kongaloosh I guess that's the case
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[kevinmarks] indiewebify.me is a clearer path, but a lot simpler.
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Kongaloosh I think it's because if you're new, maybe you should focus on functionality and personalization before you add a system to post, say, audio
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Kongaloosh unless that's your jam
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Kongaloosh but I had an early video and audio system, before even making a simple all-platfor posting system
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[kevinmarks] but both are normative in the way that Zegnat was worrying about
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Kongaloosh mmmmmmm
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Zegnat remind me of my specific worry, [kevinmarks], my mind seems to lapse
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Kongaloosh like, I feel that having a page like indiewebify me which has a curated list of "common features" and links to their descriptions would be helpful
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Kongaloosh and it kind of already exists in a bunch of places
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@martijnvdven @ricmac I try to make #indieweb more inclusive. Love to know why you see blogrolls “treated like yesterday’s technology”. Want to talk? (twitter.com/_/status/877926115326611462)
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Zegnat A CliffsNotes for IndieWeb is a thing that comes and goes as an idea, Kongaloosh. As recent as IndieWebCamp Nürnberg had people working on it, mostly calumryan then.
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Kongaloosh yeah?
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tantek tries to catch up on logs
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Kongaloosh I'm not surprised, because I leaned heavily on things like that
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Zegnat The problem, as always, is finding the right people to do the right content creation for it.
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Kongaloosh could you elaborate on that?
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Kongaloosh I'm going to end up making my own personal one for the group I'm kickstarting here. Largely, I'm doing this to customise it for an audience with little to no web experience.
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@schmarty LIRR ? to Jamaica Stn. en route to JFK. Excited to be on my way to IndieWeb Summit! (twitter.com/_/status/877928354707415040)
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tantek !tell cweiske re: "I crept up here in 2012" - really glad you stuck around despite any differences of opinion (or perhaps especially!) and helped grow the diverse set of viewpoints, approaches, implementations.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek cweiske++
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Loqi cweiske has 86 karma in this channel (102 overall)
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Zegnat Kongaloosh, I am probably not the best to elaborate on the matter. But where the wiki is doing a great job for documenting thought process, development, and technologies, it seems like people want to read more blog-like articles that introduce them to things. Nobody is actively producing that content though.
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Zegnat Mucht like how people installing WordPress often look at blog posts of people who have gone before them, rather than the heavy WordPress documentation.
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Kongaloosh I found the wiki a bit of a labyrinth at the time
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Kongaloosh like, it's hard to discern without any grounding what on the wiki is what a few people doing, and what's common practice
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[kevinmarks] with good wiki gardening we can make it a hedge maze?
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Kongaloosh [kevinmarks]++
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Loqi kevinmarks has 210 karma in this channel (277 overall)
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aaronpk isn't that true of any information anywhere tho?
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Kongaloosh who gets to be the minotaur at the centre?
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Kongaloosh I guess?
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[cleverdevil] Good morning, IndieWeb.
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Kongaloosh but I Would draw the distinction between indiewebify.me
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Kongaloosh and the wiki
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Kongaloosh 1. everything in one place
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Kongaloosh 3. simplified explanations and a process to follow
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Kongaloosh 2. well formatted for readibility
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Kongaloosh I'm not knocking the wiki thought; I <3 the wiki
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aaronpk the wiki is great at being a wiki :)
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Zegnat Yep. That matches with calumryan’s plan. He demod this page at IWC: https://calumryan.github.io/indieweb/
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Zegnat Though I wasn’t there and had to skip the demoes stream. Which is why I am the wrong person to elaborate further :)
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Zegnat I bet he would love your help if you are already planning to write introductory content though!
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Kongaloosh ooooh
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Kongaloosh Hossein Derakhshan follows IWC
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Kongaloosh TIL
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dougbeal|iOS Would anyone be interested in a iOS share sheet to encrypt the indieauth challenge/ response easily?
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[kevinmarks] Hossein was very upset when he got out of jail and saw what had happened to the open web
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Kongaloosh I would imagine
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Kongaloosh "where did all my hyperlinks go, and what is following?"
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/683970221602820098
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@kevinmarks @h0d3r we're doing that over at http://indiewebcamp.com - come join us (twitter.com/_/status/683970221602820098)
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/guardian/status/681915987164303361
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@guardian Iran's blogfather: Facebook, Instagram and Twitter are killing the web http://trib.al/5704mwu (twitter.com/_/status/681915987164303361)
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Kongaloosh cool :D
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/h0d3r/status/730805230284230656
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@h0d3r Just learnt @Blogger doesn't allow ftp to own domain anymore. Most #web hosts don't allow @WordPress multisite. Why everyone hates #openweb? (twitter.com/_/status/730805230284230656)
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@johnjohnston @kongaloosh Colin Walker’s microcast often discusses #indieweb https://colinwalker.blog/podcast/ (twitter.com/_/status/877933340262887425)
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gRegorLove Good morning, indieweb
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dougbeal|iOS 0/
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gRegorLove tantek: Re: FB background colors, I've seen them for a couple months now. I did capture some screenshots on /create
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gRegorLove I haven't used them yet beyond taking those screenshots. I've seen solid color, gradient, and even patterns, like weathered wooden shingles on the side of a house up close.
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[miklb] howdy gang. I opened an issue in the branding repo, but do we have a square version of just the IW of IndieWebCamp logo we can use in WordPress plugins?
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gRegorLove Not an official one that I know of, [miklb]. I think it was suggested during the design rounds, but the IW wouldn't be balanced
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Zegnat I think there still isn’t a “just the IW” version of the logo at all
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Zegnat (sniped by gRegorLove)
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gRegorLove There was some more discussion about it recently with the hexagon stickers, though
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gRegorLove Oh, hadn't seen mblaney's version before: https://indieweb.org/logo#Feedback
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[miklb] I saw those and loved them.
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[miklb] those == hexagon designs
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[miklb] in perfect world it would be something that could be done in black & white too - for any designers listening ?
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Improving the php-mf2 parser" by gRegor Morrill on 2017-06-22 http://microformats.org/2017/06/22/improving-the-php-mf2-parser
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@rootwork Opportunities for FLOSS activist tech • Look int'l (US hard to trust) • improve moderation • leverage Indieweb syndication @jdp23 #osb17 (twitter.com/_/status/877942318841516032)
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ben_thatmustbeme at first i was thinking my new site looks so empty... but now, i kind of like it
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tantek ooh! who is giving that talk ^^^ ?
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tantek at OSB17
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aaronpk looks like @jdp23! he's been at previous indiewebcamps!
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tantek oh yeah!
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aaronpk guest list is full!
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Zegnat Congratulations all organisers! :D
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tantek whoa!
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tantek definitely worth a post!
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aaronpk is sending out another update like the last one in a few minutes
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tantek woohoo!
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tantek needs to check his email from indieweb
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Loqi ?
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tantek lol at the irony
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aaronpk well it's also gonna go to indienews so :shrug:
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[chrisaldrich] Good morning
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Loqi [chrisaldrich]: pfefferle left you a message 10 hours, 50 minutes ago: this is great news, thanks for sharing!
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[chrisaldrich] What is Indieweb Podcast Club?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Indieweb Podcast Club" yet. Would you like to create it?
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gRegorLove Shh, you know the first rule, [chrisaldrich]!
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[chrisaldrich] oops!
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gRegorLove hehe
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[chrisaldrich] Based on the number of posts, I figured for sure that Tyler Durden would have created a wiki page.
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[chrisaldrich] goes to register tylerdurden.com, but notices it resolves to http://www.foxmovies.com/. hrmph!
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Zegnat What is Indieweb Podcast Club?
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Loqi The first rule of IndieWeb Podcast Club is: https://indieweb.org/Indieweb_Podcast_Club
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Zegnat Oh, darn, Loqi stops at punctuation
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Zegnat What is Indieweb Podcast Club?
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Loqi The first rule of IndieWeb Podcast Club is You do not talk about IndieWeb Podcast Club https://indieweb.org/Indieweb_Podcast_Club
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tantek really?
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gRegorLove Zegnat++haha
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Loqi zegnat has 50 karma in this channel (73 overall)
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Loqi nice
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gRegorLove Context: https://eli.li/entry.php?id=20170622003646
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Loqi [eli] …like a book club, but for podcasts, and distributed over the indieweb. Anyone interested? Here is how I imagine it would work. You listen to a podcast, you enjoy the podcast or have thoughts otherwise about it. You blog about said podcast on your ...
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gRegorLove IndieWeb Podcast Club << https://eli.li/entry.php?id=20170622003646
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Loqi ok, I added "https://eli.li/entry.php?id=20170622003646" to the "See Also" section of /Indieweb_Podcast_Club
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Loqi [eli] …like a book club, but for podcasts, and distributed over the indieweb. Anyone interested? Here is how I imagine it would work. You listen to a podcast, you enjoy the podcast or have thoughts otherwise about it. You blog about said podcast on your ...
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Zegnat Indieweb Podcast Club << [[lulz]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[lulz]]" to the "See Also" section of /Indieweb_Podcast_Club
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Zegnat Just to clarify :)
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[chrisaldrich] podcast << [[Indieweb Podcast Club]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Indieweb Podcast Club]]" to the "See Also" section of /podcast
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[chrisaldrich] podcast << [[Screech]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Screech]]" to the "See Also" section of /podcast
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KartikPrabhu Loqi: messages?
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ben_thatmustbeme gives Loqi a message for KartikPrabhu
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Loqi runs away from the message for KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu lol!
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@realkimhansen @ChrisAldrich As an indieweb wannabe, I want this. @benwerd ? (twitter.com/_/status/877960814434504704)
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hal9 /help
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hal9 /?
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gRegorLove Hi hal9. What are you looking for help with?
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hal9 exit
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Zegnat Afraid there is no exit on the webchat
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Zegnat You can only close your browser tab/window
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Your final updates for IndieWeb Summit" https://aaronparecki.com/2017/06/22/13/indieweb-summit-updates
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@IndieWebSummit Your final updates for IndieWeb Summit #indiewebcamp https://aaronparecki.com/2017/06/22/13/indieweb-summit-updates https://twitter.com/IndieWebSummit/status/877972686411935745/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/877972686411935745)
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[miklb] that’s pretty hot. Didn’t know it got like that in PNW
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aaronpk it's unusual but has been happening more and more over the years
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[miklb] I suspect with low of 60° it’s only blazing for couple of late hours?
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ricmac Hi everyone, re "# 02:45 Zegnat Hopefully ricmac will call in during IWS. Would love to hear why he thought IndieWeb was somehow against blogroll." Just to be clear, I don't think IW is against blogroll. I was simply observing that nobody seems to have one these days, which I think is a shame. fwiw I view it more as a curated list, rather than the follow model.
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aaronpk actually probably will be super warm from about 12pm-6pm
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aaronpk hi ricmac!
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ricmac Hello! btw I'm a big fan of everything you all do. I'm just trying to join the fun and get the Indie Web going too :)
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tantek welcome ricmac!
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ricmac thanks!
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Zegnat Hi ricmac! Thanks for stopping by! I was just wondering if there was something specific on the wiki page that made you write that. So I could try to fix it up
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ricmac hi Zegnat. Well one ides is to add 1-2 examples of people who use blogrolls, or a new version of it?
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ricmac That may inspire others to add blogrolls, or something new that is more 2017.
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gRegorLove I like how Colin's list is built based on sites that have interacted recently: https://colinwalker.blog/directory/
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tantek ricmac - did some research into old analyses of why blog rolls died - added a few articles to https://indieweb.org/blogroll#See_Also
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ricmac @tantek, thanks I will read through those
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aaronpk i think these concerns are likely the reason i haven't felt super interested in maintaining a blogroll myself. i do like the idea of colinwalker's list though! maybe i'll make that my indieweb summit project
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[miklb] related, a Twitter list builder for recent interactions https://github.com/drzax/the-list-cycle
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Loqi [drzax] the-list-cycle: An experiment with how to use Twitter
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[chrisaldrich] Is there a tool (unmung.com perhaps, though I'm not seeing the field for it) to turn h-feeds into RSS? Feedly.com doesn't seem to support h-feed yet.
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gRegorLove [chrisaldrich]: Granary
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aaronpk https://granary-demo.appspot.com/
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gRegorLove My articles Atom feed uses that ^
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aaronpk it has Atom, not RSS, but I suspect you don't care about that distinction
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ricmac one thing about blogrolls I love though, is that it's a good way for newbies to get to know which other bloggers inspire/influence the one blogger they have discovered. So it's a gateway into a community of people.
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[chrisaldrich] Thanks guys! I knew there was one, but just couldn't remember where. Yes, Atom will be just as good I suspect.
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[chrisaldrich] I've noticed a handful of readers in the last couple of days that allow one to subscribe to an .opml file, so if one publishes it and updates it later, the reader will just add the additional feeds in stride.
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tantek ricmac agreed. lots of good things about blogrolls. I too was disappointed they fell out of favor. But had to admit to it happening as a phenomenon.
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[chrisaldrich] Note that this is different to importing an .opml file and subscribing to feeds within it.
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aaronpk [chrisaldrich]: that's definitely a better way to do it!
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[miklb] chrisaldrich what/who is offering opml subscription/syncing?
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[chrisaldrich] Inoreader was one of them as I recall. I think the PressForward WP plugin does it as well.
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GWG Afternoon
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[miklb] I looked into doing it locally, but discovered opml is pretty loose (as is most XML I suspect) so couldn’t really just keep in a git repo.
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[chrisaldrich] I'm considering how to possibly create a bookmarklet to add to my WP "blogroll" (Lists) regularly and then simply have it sync with a reader.
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[chrisaldrich] The nice part is that I can have some of these subscriptions marked as "private" from an external facing perspective, but still have them show up internally.
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[chrisaldrich] Still lots of playing around to do to make it work the way I think it should.
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Do you want me to look into the blogroll? I haven't in a while.
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: you could. I hadn't done anything with it in ages until @ricmac mentioned it the other day.
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[chrisaldrich] I'm noticing lots of interesting bits still work relatively well for something so old.
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Well, it may be a good place to hold bookmarks. Owning mine has always been on my list
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[chrisaldrich] It could be good for all kinds of things, though for bookmark use, I would probably fork it and rename to keep the data storage in a different spot perhaps.
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: I haven't looked at the functions for it.
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Why different spot?
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[chrisaldrich] Mostly to keep the concept of blogroll separate from bookmarks and the intentions of what those do. Though perhaps using categories on them would be a reasonable separator
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Zegnat sknebel did you log your idea for generating blogroll based on interaction frequency? Should probably add to brainstorm?
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[chrisaldrich] gRegorLove, I'm noticing that attempting to subscribe to you via Feedly seems to fail.... and surely they support Atom.
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gRegorLove Hmm, tried with https?
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gRegorLove Oh, I misspoke earlier. It's my notes Atom feed that is via Granary. Articles is one I coded in ProcessWire.
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gRegorLove Still, it has rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" on the homepage so should be found.
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: I just had a look. I may go bookmark custom post type if I did it. aaronpk did one years back
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aaronpk the first time delicious was about to shut down!
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[chrisaldrich] gRegorLove I suspect that Feedly doesn't have very good discovery based on prior tests, but from your home page and using your Subtome button and choosing Feedly as the preference, it's not finding anything.
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[chrisaldrich] I remember reading about that custom bookmark custom post type. I think I even played around with a version of it a year or two ago.
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gRegorLove Ah, I think when I subscribed in Feedly I just did it in their interface
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Loqi [superfeedr] "The confusion about the indieweb" by Colin Walker on 2017-06-22 https://colinwalker.blog/2017/06/22/the-confusion-about-the-indieweb/
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gRegorLove I'll check the SubToMe button
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gRegorLove It definitely works in the Feedly interface if you just enter my domain
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[chrisaldrich] gRegorLove, I just tried it and it was fine there too... not sure why it wouldn't work from subtome.
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: I'd be hard pressed to do something like that given the infrastructure that Post Kinds bookmark offers now...
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[chrisaldrich] ?
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: I know. But what if the information was stored as a custom post type attached to the post post type?
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aaronpk colinwalker: you should post that on indienews! are you set up to do that already? shouldn't be hard if you have control over your html https://news.indieweb.org/en/submit
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[kevinmarks] Indieweb podcast club sounds like huffduffer.com
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dougbeal|iOS Huffduffer has comment?
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aaronpk We can at least publish things to huffduffer to find them easier
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aaronpk I should subscribe to the indieweb tag on huffduffer
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Loqi definitely
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@markymark "...the self-realised existential crisis that it is, currently, a developer community not a user community." https://colinwalker.blog/2017/06/22/the-confusion-about-the-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/877987272557252608)
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aaronpk Huffduffer appears to be down :-(
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M-podviaznikov hey everyone (I'm still new to IndieWeb and hope to learn during weekend in Portland). I have a question: I usually use schema.org for my personal site. But it seems that indieweb prefers microformats. Why is that and and what is the difference between two? I saw this page: https://indieweb.org/metadata. But still can't figure it out
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: I'm already swimming with too much today... don't kill me. ?
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gRegorLove Huffduffer could be a good way to recommend episodes, then commentary on the episodes could be posted on our sites and webmention the huffduffer post
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[markmhendrickso hey look at that, loqi is a smarty
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: What I dream of and what I will do are different things
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GWG M-podviaznikov: Speaking personally, microformats are simpler for one.
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: I'm exactly the same way... but even the dreams are difficult to wrangle this past month, much less the action.
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Tell me about it tomorrow. I will express sympathy in person
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GWG You are coming this weekend, right?
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[chrisaldrich] M-podviaznikov the nice part is that you can do both without any penalties.
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[markmhendrickso are folks in here in agreement w colinwalker that it's a "crisis"? i haven't hung around here enough to know if the internal feeling is that dire
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: I'm actually supposed to be on a flight shortly and am killing myself with a few massive projects and a large pending personal issue that is overwhelming me on the phone at the moment.
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[colinwalker] markmhendrickson dramatic effect ;)
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[markmhendrickso colinwalker fair ?
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aaronpk [markmhendrickson] I wouldn't call it a crisis, but I do feel like we're reaching a point of breaking through to the next generation now more than a year ago
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gRegorLove Hi M-podviaznikov. I think schema is mostly (only?) consumed by some search engines. Over the years the indieweb community has generally found microformats easier to author, maintain, and consume, letting us federate comments across our sites.
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aaronpk see /generations
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ben_thatmustbeme M-podviaznikov: I find them much simlper and clearer. parsing of them is different as well
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M-podviaznikov [chrisaldrich] yeah, I understand that I can use both. I wonder if you know of any advantages of one vs another
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ben_thatmustbeme its not Only consumed by, there are definitely others that use it
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ben_thatmustbeme also its in all of the independent social media now with only a few missing microformats markup
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[colinwalker] I think there is definitely an issue with developer mentality vs user mentality. All developers are uses but not all users are developers. The confusion illustrates the discussions here about language etc.
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[markmhendrickso aaronpk interesting, hadn't seen that before. interesting that bloggers and journalists are seen as forming a key stepping stone?
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M-podviaznikov gRegorLove: yeah, I think I mostly use schema.org for search engines. I don't really care about comments. I wonder what you mean by easier to consume microformats? Are there tools that use microformats except search engines?
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ben_thatmustbeme Micro.blog, Known, Mastodon, GNU Social, Pump.io, Friendica, Hubzilla, all publish microformats
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ben_thatmustbeme not all consumer them yet though
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aaronpk M-podviaznikov: here's some of my thoughts on it. https://aaronparecki.com/2016/12/17/8/owning-my-reviews tl;dr Schema.org is being pushed by google and likely they will recommend something else in a couple years
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Why Microformats? Owning My Reviews
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[markmhendrickso colinwalker i suppose i wonder how many here view "developers are the users" as a current problem or simply an evolutionary stage
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ben_thatmustbeme M-podviaznikov++ good question to bring up though
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Loqi m-podviaznikov has 1 karma
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tantek M-podviaznikov: search engines universally consume microformats1 already
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tantek see microformats.org/wiki/search
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M-podviaznikov Going to read it, thanks for the link. Agree about comment that Schema.org is pushed by google and it might be a concern
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[markmhendrickso i'm a bit torn personally. i'd love to see more products here developed for non-technical users and am trying to do my part, but i respect the hard work being done to empower developer users too
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tantek [markmhendrickso: no crisis no. the understanding of the spectrum of users is fairly well documented, see /Generations
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M-podviaznikov thanks tantek, going to read your link too
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tantek and it is evolving over time
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tantek M-podviaznikov: I think you'll find that folks here support you using whatever you want on your own site, not to the exclusion of anything else
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tantek turns out microformats, mf2 in particular, combined with /Webmention has become the simplest way to interact cross-site on the indieweb
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tantek if that user-feature is important to you on your own site, then you can consider *adding* that support
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tantek none of this requires you to "remove" anything
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tantek that's part of the point of indieweb, you deploy what you want on your site
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[markmhendrickso tantek would you say the community has a general sense of timeline for the 4 stages? i.e. does it take years or decades to pass through each, or simply hard to say?
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tantek [markmhendrickso: "timeline" sounds project-managery, AFAIK, that's not how most people think about their own websites
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tantek e.g.
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tantek what is a roadmap?
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Loqi Typical use of the term roadmap does not refer to actual roads, maps, or maps of roads - instead, keep a personal priority ordered list of what you're specifically Working On, and for unsorted or vague desires, add them to an unordered Itches list, on your User page or your project's page https://indieweb.org/roadmap
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[markmhendrickso tantek guilty as charged ?
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Loqi [superfeedr] "#8886" by Des on 2017-06-22 http://www.desparoz.com/2017/06/23/8886/
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[chrisaldrich] markmhendrickson It's incredibly tough to say if or when those four stages will come.
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[chrisaldrich] I suspect that with consumer-facing things like micro.blog lately that we're already starting into Gen2 and I see bits of Gen3 already looking at the bleeding edges.
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[chrisaldrich] In just the past few weeks seeing people like @ricmac dipping their toes into the water have been very positive looking.
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tantek indeed, and different efforts (e.g. Known vs WordPress + plugins vs micro.blog) are at different levels in terms of accessibility to generations
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[markmhendrickso chrisaldrich i'd say i'm (partially) working on gen 3 personally, but maybe i'm skipping steps! eeeek ?
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M-podviaznikov thank you tantek, that makes sense to me. That is good that any standard is supported. I didn't have personal preferences. Don't even remember why I started using schema.org. So it's good to revisit that decision for me
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[chrisaldrich] Or even core committers from WordPress thinking about adding pieces into core are positive signs.
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tantek M-podviaznikov it's not that "any standard is supported" per se, but rather *your ability to choose for your own site* is supported
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sketchess good morning / evening
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tantek and it's one of the ways we expand our growing knowledge and experience of a diverse set of technologies for consideration
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[chrisaldrich] markmhendrickson I view myself on the border of Gen1/Gen2 and know several who would self-identify as Gen2, but I'm curious who else would self-identify as Gen3.
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tantek e.g. I support ActivitiyStreams1.0/Atom on my site which I chose to support at some point in time, but as far as I know no other indieweb site (people here) supports or supports consuming or does anything with. It's my choice to support AS1/Atom on my site, and I don't have to get any agreement to do it
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sketchess I hope today I am also lucky and somebody answers my questions. :)
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[chrisaldrich] markmhendrickson It's possible that you're the first Gen3 person here, and if so, that in and of itself is very positive!
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[markmhendrickso chrisaldrich huzzah! i feel special then
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[markmhendrickso i wonder how many designers we have here as well?
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tantek hah lol no
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[markmhendrickso and anyone who has thought about how influencers / celebrities / public figures might be worth considering for all of this...
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: you may want to check http://indieweb.org/2011/Guest_List#Apprentices ;)
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tantek (note the year)
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[markmhendrickso maybe that's too far out, but in the realm of personal data / content, those with large audiences have some of the biggest motivations
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tantek [markmhendrickso: but motivations not aligned with helping those users, unfortunately
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[chrisaldrich] tantek: I knew about those prior ones, but seeing Gen3 people interacting here regularly is a bit rarer.
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petermolnar re WordPress "Decisions, not Options" - https://wordpress.org/about/philosophy/
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: look closer. Mark has been involved with IndieWebCamp since the beginning in 2011, that's my point
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sketchess Is it correct that the syllable 'indie' is derived from 'independent'?
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tantek he's humoring you with the "Gen 3" label. Mark is gen 1 :)
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petermolnar if webmentions ever get included in WP, they will be there, not as a choice but as part of WP
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[markmhendrickso hahah
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Loqi hehe
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tantek sketchess see: http://enwp.org/indie
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[markmhendrickso I'm a Gen 1 who likes to think of himself as Gen 3
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[markmhendrickso given my hiatus
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tantek [chrisaldrich]: note also that he created an entire event organizing site: Plancast
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[markmhendrickso i suppose i'm def Gen 1 as a personal identity but i think my inclination has been to serve Gen 3 since the beginning
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sketchess wikipedia what else *lol*
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[markmhendrickso re: http://markmhendrickson.com/post/homesteading-on-the-indie-web
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tantek sketchess - it's good to re-use common conventions, hence the wikipedia citation
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tantek no need to duplicate what's already there
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[chrisaldrich] I'd consider Mark Gen1 too, but am happy to let people self-label and then support their choices. Showing up is half the battle and everyone has something to contribute.
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tantek [markmhendrickso: that's why we're very glad you're here :)
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[markmhendrickso ?
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tantek btw re: colinwalker's article, this is the key, as long as we keep this mind, we'll keep iterating and improving:
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tantek "Fortunately, the community already acknowledges the need to step back and view things from a user’s perspective rather than that of a developer."
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sketchess technically nobody answered my question XD
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[chrisaldrich] misses penguins on social networks...
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sketchess directly
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sketchess thihihihi
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sketchess But I assume the answer is yes.
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[chrisaldrich] sketchess, yes, generally indie is a synonym for independent (mostly rising out of the music scene), but there are subtleties.
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[chrisaldrich] here's a good post about some of those subtleties: http://www.digitalpedagogylab.com/hybridped/indie-open-free/
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sketchess Thank you.
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sketchess Could have been something else, too.
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[markmhendrickso chrisaldrich me too! http://blog.iso50.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Picture-15-450x353.png
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[markmhendrickso evening time for me, gnight all. thanks for the good convo
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[chrisaldrich] There was sure a lot to digest and attempt to unpack in the last hour or so...
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sketchess Well I do not get it. How can it be that it is independent? It's still lived in dependence.
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sketchess indieweb
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[chrisaldrich] The better question may be independent with respect to what?
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sketchess have a good night sleep
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sketchess That is a good question?
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sketchess ups
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sketchess ? = !
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sketchess hahahaha
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sketchess wrong button
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sketchess It feels somehow weird. I connect with 'independece' something else than the indieweb guide lines do.
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[colinwalker] tantek that last paragraph is definitely the point. The generations may be defined but the page says "create language to encourage growth" and that is a major sticking point as I see it right now.
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[colinwalker] There are some gen 2's but I think they're technically borderline gen 1s as there is still so much manual work needed which requires knowledge.
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[colinwalker] The rumblings about including indieweb tech in WP core or jetpack are great so I could imagine things skipping gen 2 and going straight to gen 3 but, as I've said all along, at that point it won't be referred to as indieweb - it'll just be new functionality in WP and responsibility for the language could get passed over or maybe even usurped??
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aaronpk sketchess: perhaps write a blog post about what "independence" means to you
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sketchess smiles
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[colinwalker] Perhaps one thing about independence in this context is that it is preached to do what you want but the guides say you need x,y & z.
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sketchess I think there would be no point in that @aaronpk.
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[chrisaldrich] colinwalker That's a possibility, but I suspect that given both the developer base of WP and their history that it wouldn't be usurped.
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[chrisaldrich] More likely I hope that it would create a huge swath of competition both in the social silo space as well as for other CMSes.
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[chrisaldrich] I suppose anything is possible, but building something on open technologies is very hard to make closed, so open would win in the end, wouldn't it?
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[colinwalker] Absolutely. I just wonder about the impact of adoption by stealth rather than organic.
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sketchess searches
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[colinwalker] Anyway, bed time. Gotta be up at 4. Night all.
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sketchess Neah, not finding it.
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sketchess The wiki is not easy to navigate.
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aaronpk any time you encounter issues with the wiki feel free to add links or change things to improve it
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sketchess I can't.
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aaronpk what's stopping you from logging in?
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aaronpk was travling the last few days so was only dropping in occasionally here, in case you've already mentioned it
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sketchess :D more than one thing
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sketchess if I may introduce myselfe, I am the misfit
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aaronpk aren't we all :)
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sketchess nice to meet you
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sketchess thihihihi
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sketchess in my case every attempt to login was a dead end ;)
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sketchess I have non of the mentioned x, y and z's.
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aaronpk if you want to avoid silo logins, there are 3 other options: email, PGP, and having your own indieauth server. keybase.io makes the PGP option less difficult than PGP normally is, in case you haven't tried that yet
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sketchess Yes, it was also mentioned.
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sketchess :D
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sketchess If you like, call it fate.
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aaronpk i have seen at least one person create a github or twitter account just to use for this purpose
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aaronpk so that's always an option
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sketchess Nevertheless I try to understand what the indieweb is.
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sketchess No thank you.
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sketchess But very kind.
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aaronpk do you not want to put an email address on your site either? every domain has to have a functioning email address in the whois record, so you could even use that same one
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sketchess I will not implement a 'mailto'.
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sketchess As I say, I am a misfit in any means. ;)
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aaronpk my point is putting a mailto: on your site with the same email as is in the whois record isn't exposing any new information so i'm not sure what the hesitation is
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sketchess But it happend that I somehow came to be a proof reader.
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sketchess Don't worry about me, I am fine.
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sketchess is just trying to understand and to help out as possible
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sketchess hihihi you are the first one who does not asked me if I have a website hihihihi
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aaronpk :) I assumed you did since you were talking about problems you were having logging in, rather than being unable to log in because you don't have a website
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sketchess that is surprising
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sketchess on the other hand not
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sketchess hahahaha
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Loqi awesome
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Zegnat sketchess, you got some of us moving with the login issues though ;) There is now a 2 small PHP files solution available: https://github.com/Inklings-io/selfauth
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Loqi [Inklings-io] selfauth: self-hosted auth_endpoint using simple login mechanism
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Zegnat Though it needs some more work
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aaronpk whoa
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sketchess Zegnat *happy*
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sketchess nice to see you around
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aaronpk tries that out
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sketchess you make me curious again ;)
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Zegnat Apparently Ben got it working. Both sknebel and I want to have a stab at iterating on the code. So it might get some commits during IWS, depending on other projects.
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aaronpk nice
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Zegnat ben_thatmustbeme++ for selauth
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 99 karma in this channel (238 overall)
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sketchess has a look
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sketchess o.o ?
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Zegnat sketchess, I am always around ;) I was just hosting some guests who have come to celebrate midsummer tomorrow. I am not so impolite that I IRC while hosting.
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sketchess well that is non I would expect, it's a github page thihihi
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Zegnat Yeah, sorry, no documentation or anything. It is very new.
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[chrisaldrich] I know someone implemented an anonymous webmention set up before, why not a similar anonymous authentication solution?
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Zegnat index.php is the thing you link to on your website, and you put your information in config.php, then you should be able to login with your domain
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Zegnat [chrisaldrich], that is basically what this is. You use your domain to login with indie web-login, and the authentication is provided by that PHP file hosted by you on your domain.
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sketchess and would you please reveal the magic for me....... you were faster
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Zegnat No third parties required who need to know about you.
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Zegnat ricmac, I saw you replied to my tweet. Thanks for that too :) I’ll see if I can give the blogroll page some more love soon.
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aaronpk Zegnat: just sent a few PRs for stuff i encountered while setting it up from scratch
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dougbeal|iOS indieauth is the only blessed provider for OuwnYourGram, OwnYoyrSwarm, Bridgy?
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sketchess ok, it still looks like magic to me
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sketchess reread
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aaronpk it could benefit from some more documentation :)
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sketchess question
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aaronpk it works tho!
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Zegnat LGTM aaronpk, not sure if I want to hit merge before agreeing on some sort of PR-merge-flow with ben_thatmustbeme though
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sketchess If I ban scripts in my html header, would it still work?
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sketchess ?me kicks the key board
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[miklb] Zegnat the approach pfefferle and GWG take is that it a PR has to be reviewed before a merge. Seems to work well from what I’ve seen.
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sketchess I never touched php directly.^^
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sketchess poor me hahahahaha
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sketchess that could be interesting
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Zegnat [miklb], well, does it count that I just reviewed aaronpk’s PR? ;)
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Zegnat sketchess, the idea is that you shouldn’t need to know PHP. If you don’t feel comfortable changing the config file, you can use setup.php to generate it.
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aaronpk that was a good flow. it was a simple form, then provided code to copy and paste into the config file.
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aaronpk if the file had checked whether the web server has write permissions, it could have written the config file itself.
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sketchess aha
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Zegnat The idea is: as long as your webhost supports PHP, you can now login with your domain name without needed any external factors (email, facebook, whatever)
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sketchess out of your mouth it sound soooo easy *smile*
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sketchess and at the same time not
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sketchess I could only do a lucky guess.
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sketchess magic
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Zegnat It sounds easy because I am so easy going ;)
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Zegnat And on that, I am off, time for bed.
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sketchess I appreciate your work.
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sketchess I should too
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Loqi agreed.
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sketchess I wish you sweet dreams.
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@ChrisAldrich @benwerd @chrisaldrich @realkimhansen Perhaps a mashup between https://news.indieweb.org/ & @huffduffer with topics… http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/benwerd-chrisaldrich-realkimhansen-perhaps-a-mashup-between-huffduffer-with-topics (twitter.com/_/status/878016237380538369)
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@kevinmarks Nice PESOS there #indieweb https://twitter.com/judell/status/878007707579555841 (twitter.com/_/status/878020877522132992)
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[chrisaldrich] Welcome to the party jeanmacdonald!
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[chrisaldrich] I've got a rapidly evolving good news/bad news situation...
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[chrisaldrich] I've made a contingent offer on a new house which has been accepted.
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[chrisaldrich] Unfortunately with the shortened timelines involved, clean up work I'm going to have to do in addition to the start of inspections, I'm going to have to cancel my flight to PDX for the weekend.
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[chrisaldrich] aaronpk, you'll have space for one more on the waiting list this weekend, and I'll have to do my best to keep up remotely
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[chrisaldrich] #ThisTripWasSupposedToBeMyEarlyBirthdayPresent ?
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[jeanmacdonald] Hi chrisaldrich! bet you can't use emojis in this Slack because it's also IRC.
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[jeanmacdonald] Oh wait, Chris just used one. ?
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[jeanmacdonald] (Sorry to hear about the trip cancellation.)
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[chrisaldrich] While I'm happy about the new house, I'd rather be on my way to PDX. I'm also now stressed out that I'll have to turn around and sell my present house a month or more earlier than I had anticipated.
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[chrisaldrich] I was hoping all this would happen in late summer. At least I won't have to worry about timing for IWC-LA now.
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snarfed [chrisaldrich]++ for juggling real life and indieweb and everything else. i can definitely commiserate with real estate stuff. congrats! we'll have to meet another time!
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Loqi chrisaldrich has 27 karma in this channel (35 overall)
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[chrisaldrich] Even worse, I was going to clean up at /IndieWeb_Bingo
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GWG Chrisaldrich, sorry to miss you
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[kevinmarks] https://blog.jonudell.net/2017/06/22/dumb-servers-for-personal-clouds/
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Loqi Dumb servers for personal clouds
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GWG Come to NYC sometime
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: I'm bummed.
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aaronpk sorry to miss you!
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aaronpk but congrats on the house
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GWG Chrisaldrich, I am too. Hope to see you again soon
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[chrisaldrich] In my best Bogart: "We'll always have streaming..."
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GWG Chrisaldrich, let's bring back IWC and HWC online
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: We're long overdue for that.... and there's also http://wpwatercooler.com/ to schedule.
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[chrisaldrich] GWG, do you have any plans for a late summer/fall IWC in NY?
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GWG Chrisaldrich, I am going straight from PDX to Manila till mid July. Tell me when
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GWG Chrisaldrich, I have no venue
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[chrisaldrich] schmarty Could you do me a favor and watch out for Kim Hansen this weekend? She's interested in indieweb/podcasting and was planning to go.
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GWG I can help too. I podcast
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schmarty happy to help however i can!
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[chrisaldrich] I talked her into coming down from SF and feel guilty that I won't be there now.
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GWG Chrisaldrich, we'll entertain her.
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schmarty ooh, i should have thought to ask this much earlier. aaronpk, is there any chance of getting a tour of the streampdx trailer? ;}
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aaronpk looks forward to some fun podcasting discussions this weekend!
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aaronpk oh good idea schmarty!
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GWG Ooh.. that would be interesting
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[chrisaldrich] Thanks GWG! She's doing some cool stuff at signl.fm as a part of matter.vc
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GWG Park it outside
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aaronpk hah there's no way to park that downtown
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[chrisaldrich] I was kind of hoping to record some short 5-10 minute podcast-able interviews with people over the duration of the weekend.
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aaronpk [chrisaldrich]++
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Loqi chrisaldrich has 28 karma in this channel (36 overall)
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GWG I have a recorder if you tell me what
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schmarty haha, and i brought my blue yeti, since i'm planning to knock out this week audio edition tomorrow after lunch :}
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Loqi awesome
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GWG I have am atr usb xlr and a recorder
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aaronpk schmarty: we don't have concrete plans saturday night but the studio is open until 8pm so we might be able to make a field trip after the sessions!
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[chrisaldrich] jeremycherfas and I had discussed doing something longer form, and I wanted to get some quick-hit content of people discussing why/how they got into the community.
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[chrisaldrich] something to add some human interest and warmth as well as voices to the larger conversation
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schmarty i look forward to chatting with Kim! i bet i will learn a ton, haha. thanks for the intro, [chrisaldrich] ! also, i just caught up on the backlog: congrats on the house and best of luck with the logistics :}
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schmarty aaronpk: that sounds like fun! i am super interested in learning about podcast communities.
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[chrisaldrich] thx schmarty; the good news are the short escrow periods, the bad news is the short escrow periods.
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GWG Maybe the transportini podcast will finally get a second episode
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schmarty [chrisaldrich]: it sounds like between GWG and me we have plenty of recording hardware. feel free to send questions - i think short interviews sounds like a fantastic hackday project.
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schmarty we can put 'em up somewhere. maybe Kim can help us out
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GWG I forgot my battery recharger though. Oh well, I have usb power
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[chrisaldrich] schmarty, even short one minute answers to the question "Why did you get involved in indieweb?" could make great bumpers on "This week in Indieweb."
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[miklb] or audiograms
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schmarty ?
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GWG I got involved to meet giants
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[chrisaldrich] ...and then you became one!
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GWG Chrisaldrich, so you said
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[chrisaldrich] Oh, I caught the tangential reference!
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GWG I don't think of myself as one
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aaronpk alright i think we can organize a field trip to streampdx for saturday night!
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aaronpk i'll book it on the calendar
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[chrisaldrich] you're killing me...
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GWG aaronpk, fun fun
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GWG Chrisaldrich, we'll photo
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GWG Anyone bring a 360 camera?
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aaronpk i'm thinking we'll wrap up at mozilla at 5:30, break for dinner, and meet at the street car stop at 6:30
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GWG aaronpk, I love a good streetcar too
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schmarty i did not bring my 360 camera ?
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[chrisaldrich] snarfed: Would you be game for a friday 11am appearance on wpwatercooler.com in the next few months re: micropub/indieweb
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snarfed clicks
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amitp eek it's snarfed
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snarfed ahhh eek it's amitp!
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amitp ahhh eek
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snarfed been too long!
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[chrisaldrich] It's a relatively popular WP-centric video podcast/interview show...
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snarfed [chrisaldrich]: um, sure! honestly i'm probably not that great a guest, i mostly avoid wordpress stuff (and CMSes in general)
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snarfed only wrote the micropub plugin once it got badly embarrassing that wp still didn't have one
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GWG I didn't bring mine either
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GWG snarfed, if I used it more, I'd get back to contributing. Still not there
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GWG And I still stink at unit tests
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[chrisaldrich] snarfed: while the show is WP-specific I'm trying to get them to do a series of indieweb-centric episodes, so you could easily focus more on that and the broader pieces rather than the CMS portion.
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snarfed sure, happy to
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[chrisaldrich] for me, Indieweb is the topic, and WP is just the means...
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GWG Amen
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[chrisaldrich] (Though I might not say that outloud on the show...) ?
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GWG I wouldn't
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GWG But any CMS is a means to an end
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aaronpk okay it's official :D https://indieweb.org/2017/Schedule#Saturday
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schmarty ??
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[cleverdevil] Looking forward to it!
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[cleverdevil] My flight leaves LAX around noon tomorrow, and I should be at the pre-party.
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