#indieweb 2017-07-21

2017-07-21 UTC
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jjuran NoScript++
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Loqi noscript has 3 karma in this channel (4 overall)
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@ChrisAldrich Vladimir Bukovsky On Samizdat http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/28/indieweb-quote-of-the-day-vladimir-bukovsky-on-samizdat/ #pngWriter https://twitter.com/ChrisAldrich/status/888228021236375554/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/888228021236375554)
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@ChrisAldrich Vladimir Bukovsky On Samizdat #Indieweb http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/28/indieweb-quote-of-the-day-vladimir-bukovsky-on-samizdat/ #pngWriter https://twitter.com/ChrisAldrich/status/888229105858228225/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/888229105858228225)
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-07-21.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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[allegoryanalyti tantek Hi!
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tantek [allegoryanalyti: hello!
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tantek looks like your username is longer than the IRC limit :)
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[allegoryanalyti tantek well, this is much better...yeah..I see that...fixing
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[allegory] tantek Better?
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[allegory] I didn't think that "allegory" would be available.
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tantek lots of things are available on slacks
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[allegory] I already have like 5 Slack accounts
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[allegory] Of course they are all "jmcdonald@XXXXX.com"
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tantek of course
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[allegory] So, what is the latest in open source web standards? I'm a noob.
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strk[m] [allegory]: matrix.org ?
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tantek matrix is a project, not a web standard
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tantek [allegory]: there's a lot of "web standards" and most of them have open source implementations
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tantek [allegory]: got a personal domain you're using recently?
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[colinwalker] tantek aaronpk That DuckDuckGo search result was really surprising. Don't have a clue why DDG would be ranking it so high when it's nowhere on Google.
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb
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prtksxna Morning Zegnat o/
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petermolnar !tell aaronpk http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-35709680 it was on the table for medium for a long while
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar !tell aaronpk my FF doesn't like your archive layout (linux, FF esr 52.2) I even turned ublock and umatrix off, didn't help. https://petermolnar.net/tmp/aaronpk.png
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@kevinmarks @Werner @ericnakagawa From the #indieweb point of view, not being unique is a virtue - fewer… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/888334878470701056 (twitter.com/_/status/888334878470701056)
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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Zegnat Good morning jeremycherfas :) I think I left a message for you in -dev
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cweiske jeremycherfas, your grav blog has a default "G" icon
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Loqi cweiske: petermolnar left you a message 20 hours, 29 minutes ago: the screenshot url is broken here: https://github.com/cweiske/tt-rss-micropub
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cweiske petermolnar, fixed. re-organized my screenshots folder yesterday
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jeremycherfas Cweiske: Do you mean the favicon?
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petermolnar \o/
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cweiske jeremycherfas, yes
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cweiske that's what you get when using private links in something official
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jeremycherfas Least of my worries, right now. :)
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jeremycherfas Zegnat: This one? https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2017-07-20/1500580088692000 Loqi has not yet told me.
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Loqi [Zegnat] !tell jeremycherfas looks like I got a webmention from your main site? Not sure if that was the notify script or something else.
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jeremycherfas Zegnat: That’s correct, you did. I tested, live. Brief write-up here https://www.jeremycherfas.net/blog/tantalising-pursuit-of-webmentions
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Loqi Tantalising pursuit of webmentions
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jeremycherfas Now I need to test again locally. Try and work out whether I was just being to impatient.
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Zegnat jeremycherfas, Loqi will not tell you until you actually participate on the dev channel again :)
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jeremycherfas Ah.
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@sebastiangreger 12th Homebrew Website Club Berlin (last before our summer break): Wed 26.7. 19:00. Welcome to talk & learn #Indieweb http://sebastiangreger.net/2017/07/homebrew-website-club-berlin-12-on-26-jul-2017/ (twitter.com/_/status/888351510475808771)
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jeremycherfas The real drag about working with Grav — quite aside from the problems petermolnar has mentioned, which I don’t understand — is that I seem to be the only person using it who has any interest at all in IndieWeb. Makes me think that if I want to continue, I should switch back end, again.
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jeremycherfas But that’s just defeatist.
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Zegnat That’s definitely a tough point, especially if you don’t consider yourself a developer able to build the tools themself
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voxpelli loves working with backendless systems for eg. that reason – make it less of an all or northing
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Zegnat I do like my backends voxpelli, but I do like modularity :) My webmention endpoint runs on completely separate code from the rest of my site
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voxpelli Zegnat: yeah, I have a backend for my webmention endpoint as well, just not for my main site, which kind of forces me into such modularity, which is insane and lovely at once :)
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Zegnat IndieAuth and Webmentions are both supported by separate folders with a few files in them. I could swap out the implementations at any point without touching my site. It does feel good.
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petermolnar my wm endpoint ties in with my site "source code" and with the generator itself, but since the site is generated html it's definitely simple to decouple
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petermolnar also my reason for PESOS for the interactions
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petermolnar I can safely break my pulls without losing the ability to react
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cweiske does the endpoint do git commits?
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petermolnar not now; I tried that but it got messy
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cweiske when I finally show comments, I'll need to do that
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petermolnar I'm not amused by the python git wrappers so far
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voxpelli I opted to just use the GitHub HTTP API to do my committing for now, not as cool and nice, but lets me focus on more important things
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voxpelli And then I can revisit and do a GitHub-independent committing eventually
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Buona fortunate con la sperimentazione. Se stai a Roma, forse ci incontriamo per sapere più di indieweb?" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-07-17 https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2017/buona-fortunate-con-la-sperimentazione-se-stai-a-roma-forse
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@_dgoldsmith Wrote a thing! All about Micropub, but with added Stoic value. #indieweb #stoic https://ascraeus.org/making-it-micropub/ (twitter.com/_/status/888441373011136512)
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Making it Micropub" https://ascraeus.org/making-it-micropub/ (from https://aaronparecki.com/2017/07/21/6/)
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tantek Oh hey it's newsletter day!
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tantek what is this week?
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Loqi This Week in the IndieWeb is a weekly digest of activities of the IndieWeb community https://indieweb.org/this-week
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dgold yay! newsletter day!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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tantek dgold: yes! good day to check out the new pages: https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-07-21.html and add more material since this will be the first time a bunch of people will see them
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tantek (that link is the newsletter draft in progress for today)
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[jeremycherfas] Dgold++
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Loqi dgold has 14 karma in this channel (17 overall)
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dgold aaronpk: what did you use to screencap my site?
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dgold I can't reproduce that layout error
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aaronpk checks
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Loqi aaronpk: petermolnar left you a message 11 hours, 20 minutes ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-35709680 it was on the table for medium for a long while
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Loqi aaronpk: petermolnar left you a message 10 hours, 54 minutes ago: my FF doesn't like your archive layout (linux, FF esr 52.2) I even turned ublock and umatrix off, didn't help. https://petermolnar.net/tmp/aaronpk.png
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aaronpk petermolnar: wow, that's bizarre
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aaronpk dgold: i don't actually know what rendering engine it uses, it's somethiing benwerd runs
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aaronpk i think it might be https://wkhtmltopdf.org/
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tantek scary domain name
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aaronpk scary?
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dgold wkh?!
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sknebel ?
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dgold okay, so that doesn't do flexbox. that explains that.
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aaronpk ooh bummer
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dgold i thought that the media css was broken, spent a little while checking it over
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-07-21.html
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tantek aaronpk - any chance of that mini "Federating IndieWeb with micro.blog" post before ^^^ ?
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tantek also your wmio feature upgrade is definitely worth syndicating to IndieNews
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aaronpk i don't think i can write a post before 3
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aaronpk i did post about webmention.io! it just doesn't have a title
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tantek a-ha! a note with images ;)
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schmarty haha
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Loqi schmarty: lol
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tantek schmarty I see you fixed your "like" post :)
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schmarty tantek: yep. thanks again for the heads-up. my likes, reposts, and bookmarks were all missing the u-*-of properties after trying to make them a little more "legible" and excluding the link-preview info from the content.
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schmarty i need to take another stab at it. i've now got the content simplified to something like "★ Favorited http://...some.url"
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schmarty with a u-*-of on that url
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schmarty but the link-previews are represented as u-*-of h-cite, so it shows up as a second "like-of" from the mf2 parser
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schmarty so, e.g., woodwind shows the same preview content twice :|
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tantek are you having to link to the thing you liked twice in the same post?
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schmarty for now. i was inspired by gRegorLove's simple like-of post design and they way it showed up in woodwind as just the action and url. however, on my site i also want to see the link preview.
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schmarty i originally designed my link-preview templates as reply-context, so it expects to put some kind of u-* h-cite on the previewed content.
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tantek this should be solvable. your u-* h-cite should work *outside* the e-content but still *inside* the h-entry
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tantek that's how I do my u-in-reply-to h-cite
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schmarty hmm, good point.
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schmarty i need to take another pass at it. particularly to clean up cases where link preview fetching failed or is incomplete, which is what led me to take the shortcut of putting u-*of on the link in the content.
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tantek you don't need any e-content on like btw
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tantek you can put all the fall back into a p-summary or e-summary if you need the markup
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tantek *fallback
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schmarty i get myself confused about it
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schmarty currently got it as "p-name e-content", a pattern i have seen a few times and am cargo-culting. name vs summary vs content is something i often have to re-read to load the differences into my head.
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tantek right they each have different functions
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tantek and could probably use additional documentation
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[kevinmarks] They're a 3 part structure, but they collapse in notes which gets confusing
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[kevinmarks] Name is the headline, summary the brief version, content the complete post.
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[kevinmarks] For a note, the name and the content are the same.
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[kevinmarks] One way to think about it is that the name and summary are on your homepage to encourage you to read the content. If the name is the content, you don't need a summary.
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tantek kevinmarks - still a bit abstract to actually be actionable
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tantek biggest challenge is understanding / explaining when you *should* use summary
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tantek (like specific examples)
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tantek your homepage to permalink example is a good one
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[kevinmarks] Well, kevinmarks.com is an example
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[kevinmarks] I put summary on the homepage, but not on the post page.
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[kevinmarks] But that's because it's manual until it hurts
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tantek heh
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tantek "Currently in Season" makes for a misleading article name most of time. E.g. searching for Dungeness crab I found http://www.foodrepublic.com/2013/02/27/10-things-you-should-know-about-dungeness-crab-currently-in-season/
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[kevinmarks] Is it an R in the month one?
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-07-21.html
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tantek I started writing a "Federating IndieWeb with micro.blog" post and as I wrote the opening paragraph (summarizing what federating means) I realized we're not quite there yet
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tantek Here's my opening sentence and I'm curious what others think:
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tantek Federating across social media sites means two people can post and respond to each other, each using a different site and service, each without having to use the other site or service.
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schmarty That almost sounds more like interoperability than federation.
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tantek federation is a form of interoperating ys
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tantek any time two implementations can work together based on a standard, they are interoperating on that standard
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tantek whereas federating there has a lot more to it like post and respond
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tantek schmarty e.g. browsers interoperate on CSS - has nothing to do with federation
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schmarty haha wow, yeah, federation seems to have a much looser definition than i initially thought.
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Loqi hahahaha
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schmarty closes wikipedia before falling down a hole
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tantek it's not looser - just different
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schmarty the definition in my head was much more restrictive ;}
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tantek and it's more user-centric, whereas interoperability usually refers to a particular standard (plumbing)
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tantek interesting, what did you think federation meant?
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tantek what is federation
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Loqi federation in the context of the indieweb refers to services and features on indieweb sites that work directly with other indieweb sites peer-to-peer, without being bottlenecked by any kind of centralized service or silo https://indieweb.org/federation
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schmarty i was thinking of it more as replication
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tantek replication like copying? making backups? or archive copies?
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schmarty my head was in the mastodon / OStatus "fediverse"
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schmarty where servers swap posts based on subscriptions
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tantek at the plumbing level
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tantek that part is not relevant to what federating means
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schmarty for sure
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tantek Mastodon sites fit the definition I gave above
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schmarty yes indeed! i like your definition and the opening you proposed.
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TheGillies > without being bottlenecked by any kind of centralized service or silo
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TheGillies what about birdgy or indieauth
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TheGillies bridgy*
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TheGillies I guess that's not really a "bottleneck" in that there isn't vendor lockin
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tantek right. Bridgy is also open source, so you can run your own
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tantek schmarty: updated slightly: Federating across social media sites means two people can post, see each others posts, and respond to each other, each using a different site or service, each without having to use or setup the other site or service.
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tantek I'm saying setup in addition to use because that's where I tripped up regarding the indieweb and micro.blog example
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schmarty i like that. it focuses on steps that users are likely familiar with.
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tantek aaronpk, https://aaronparecki.com/2017/07/19/24/webmention-io and responses are not quite federation because it still required you to create an identity on micro.blog and set it up to get posts from your personal site to show up to other users there.
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] The https://webmention.io dashboard just got a whole lot more useful! You can now see the last few dozen webmentions you've received, and delete them if you want! This is the first step towards a "block" feature in webmention.io: https://indieweb.org... https://aaronparecki.com/2017/07/19/24/photo.png
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tantek but it's still a huge step towards full federation between the two and I'm trying to figure out a way to describe / explain that
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@indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-07-21.html https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp/status/888522734833029121/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/888522734833029121)
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tantek maybe we need to make a way to measure "how federated" a combination of systems are
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tantek because there is still value to the "set it up once and forget about it" caveat
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tantek the funny thing is that email is sorta approaching that, with so much server specific configuration / setup that is needed to get your message accepted by other servers
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tantek like if you have to contact help@ some domain (Gmail, Yahoo, etc.) to get them to configure their mail servers to accept mail from your server, then it's a similar step down from full "federation"
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schmarty it would be hilarious to see a light and peppy how-to video about setting up your own email server
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tantek I think petermolnar had some recent experience with that
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schmarty in the style of a "look at our cool easy social network features" ad
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tantek where he tried to switch domains and his email stopped working
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tantek switched between two of his own domains
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schmarty "now it's time to talk DNS records. it's as easy as SPF, DKIM, and DMARC!"
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tantek schmarty - if you like the definition I provide above, maybe we can use it to write something up on the wiki
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schmarty it could be used to tighten up the current "federation" definition.
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tantek yeah
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tantek we can also expand upon it in a second paragraph, specifically with the notion of "federating social media"
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schmarty i am interested to learn more about features or measures of "how federated" particular systems are
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schmarty it might be fun to frame a way to evaluate pairs of systems
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tantek indeed
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schmarty to some extent that is happening on /indieweb_network
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tantek I'm thinking two axes already. with things like "some setup required" along there
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tantek and another axis for # of implementations
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schmarty with building blocks / plumbing
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tantek schmarty: well the existing /federation page has some of that already
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tantek see the three different https://indieweb.org/federation#How_to
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@brianjesse my new favorite thing is @ricmac's latest tweet - thanks Richard! #blogging #innovator #openweb #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/888526930776965120)
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tantek this one presumably https://twitter.com/ricmac/status/888518988468178944
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@ricmac Brian adds privacy to blogging. Very interesting! QT [@brianjesse] my new #wordpress plug-in shares private posts as auto-login links, friends can see only the posts they are added to https://github.com/myphotolinks/myphotolinks (twitter.com/_/status/888518988468178944)
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tantek that's a clever trick for private posts
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tantek This is an interesting archival choice: https://twitter.com/ricmac/status/884881328176381952
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@ricmac I created an archive & here I explain why I chose to link to @internetarchive over the original sources like @RWW. https://richardmacmanus.com/2017/07/12/creating-an-archive/ (twitter.com/_/status/884881328176381952)
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schmarty oh, those federation howtos are really interesting!
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[cleverdevil] Private photo sharing is a critical use case for gen3/4.
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[manton] Agreed that we're not quite there with Micro.blog and federation. Hopefully on the right path. There are a few areas (such as incoming webmentions) that are tied to accounts and should be opened up.
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