#indieweb 2017-07-28

2017-07-28 UTC
KevinMarks_, davidmead, wolftune, [miklb], leg, AngeloGladding, tantek, wagle and [chrisaldrich] joined the channel
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Loqi
Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-07-28.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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tantek
good evening #indieweb
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Loqi
tantek: gRegorLove left you a message 6 hours, 27 minutes ago: Done: /Homebrew_Website_Club#Logos_and_Graphics
tantek, wolftune and endi joined the channel
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@evanwolf
@bmann Ah. They build for fb already, especially in the US. I prefer indieweb for most civichacks and govIT; less s… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/890801456822927360
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Zegnat
Good morning IndieWeb!
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@jusTransact
Visit Millennium India stall at #IWS2017 at Pragati Maidan, New Delhi. Get exciting offers for world-class POS prod… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/890828539607392256
(twtr.io/1UPknDrS4Ww)
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@MillenniumPOS
Visit Millennium India stall at #IWS2017 at Pragati Maidan, New Delhi. Get exciting offers for world-class POS prod… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/890831018197897216
(twtr.io/1UPmfMLh70G)
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Pride goeth ..." by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-07-28 http://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2017/pride-goeth
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Lukas Rosenstock on Twitter: "Just taken the first few steps to re-enable my personal website. Hope to publish my first post there soon. #indieweb"" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-07-23 https://twitter.com/LukasRosenstock/status/889173229184532480
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@johnjohnston
Reading: Getting there | Jeremy Cherfas Although I am really enjoying exploring the indieweb, this point about ... http://johnjohnston.info/blog/reading-getting-there-jeremy-cherfasalthough-i-am-rea/
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cweiske
jeremycherfas, the svg image on https://www.jeremycherfas.net/blog/getting-there is a tiny bit large :)
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Loqi
Getting there
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jeremycherfas
Cweiske Which one? The avatar?
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dgold
jeremycherfas: Il mio nome è daniel goldsmith
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jeremycherfas
Oops. Mea maxima culpa.
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jeremycherfas
I’ll fix this afternoon. Right now, clients are waiting.
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Loqi
gregorlove has 104 karma in this channel (175 overall)
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Loqi
[gRegorLove] mf2-to-iCalendar: Convert microformats h-event to iCalendar
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Zegnat
sebsel when is that next Dutch HWC coming up? ;)
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sebsel
haha this is an old one, my only h-event ;)
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Loqi
hehe
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sebsel
But yeah, need to start it up again
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cweiske
jeremycherfas, yes the avatar
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jeremycherfas
Seems to my eye to be about the right size when I look at it in a browser.
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cweiske
hard-reloaded, now it's nice
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cweiske
I probably didn't have the latest css
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jeremycherfas
Possibly not.
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sebsel
added embedded h-events to my rsvp's, so if I rsvp via my site, the event appears on my Apple Calendar thanks to gRegorLove :)
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voxpelli
nice sebsel!
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sebsel
now waiting for aaronpk to review https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/pull/39 so I can do Fb events less manual 0:)
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Loqi
[sebsel] #39 add Facebook events
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cweiske
I see many blog posts mentioning "vouch" as the solution to the spam problem that brought down pingback, but in reality nobody implements it
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petermolnar
cweiske other things we discussed with aaronpk here: http://indieweb.org/2016/Brighton/webmention
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petermolnar
the one thing that's missing from there is greylisting
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petermolnar
which could be implemented for webmentions in theory
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cweiske
indeed
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petermolnar
http 503 at first request should mean try again later
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petermolnar
or even "http 406 Not Acceptable"
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cweiske
no. 406 implies the request itself cannot be answered
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cweiske
and that the client should not retry without modifying it
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cweiske
5xx is correct, since it's temporary
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petermolnar
I have no idea how effective it would be though
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petermolnar
works for email
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cweiske
webmention -> w2smtp-proxy -> mailserver -> greylisting -> spamassassin -> mail handler: mail2webmention -> real webmention endpoint
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petermolnar
hell no :D
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petermolnar
but I did wonder if I can parse them through akismet somehow
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cweiske
that'd only require me to build 2 parts (w2smtp and back)
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voxpelli
Vouch will probably be implemented by more people as needs grow
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voxpelli
Spam protection is kind of hard to dogfood
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voxpelli
So currently people dogfood other things with higher return
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cweiske
people will begin implementing that after the first spam wave rolled over everyone
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cweiske
which will look to non-techies the same as pingback previously
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voxpelli
the blacklists that was discussed lately is one stop on the way – getting such mechanisms in place means more of the work needed is available
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voxpelli
like interfaces for managing blacklist/whitelist
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petermolnar
feels tempted to start webmention spams
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cweiske
spamming is easy currently, just send a webmention from "url#foo" to "url"
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sebsel
petermolnar I thought the same. A friend of Loqi, the friendly webmention spammer
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cweiske
1. loop through irc-people
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cweiske
2. fetch first h-entry
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cweiske
3. send webmention anchor spam
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cweiske
sebsel, Yes, alles is goed gegaan!
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Loqi
[Sebastiaan Andeweg] Wachtwoordmanager
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sebsel
I have one indeed :P
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cweiske
three now :)
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petermolnar
that's no spam
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "http://altplatform.org/2017/06/20/building-a-blogroll-in-2017/" by Peter Molnar on 2017-06-28 https://petermolnar.net/re-building-a-blogroll-in-2017/
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cweiske
wait until I do that to your page
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sebsel
well, it clutters my post
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petermolnar
it'll fail in the first iteration - does the source have my url?
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petermolnar
because I throw away selfpings
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cweiske
yep, saw that
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cweiske
selfpings are not allowed
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sebsel
Yeah, several feeds on my site mention that blogpost, so I should probably block everything from my own domain
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sebsel
But I do like to selfping sometimes
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petermolnar
but then again, that's not real spam
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petermolnar
1, loop through irc people
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petermolnar
2, fetch first h-entry
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petermolnar
3, generate a lot of static html with urls to all of them and add spam text as e-content
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petermolnar
4, upload that to github pages
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sebsel
petermolnar they are listed under my post! and they pile up https://seblog.nl/temp/media-endpoint/0566b0-spam.jpg
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petermolnar
5, send webmentions
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voxpelli
cweiske: I don't think that work on my endpoint
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voxpelli
I will normalize away the fragment
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voxpelli
very very much hope cweiske doesn't see that comment as a challenge to anything :P
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Loqi
[Pelle Wessman] 3 tricks to better handle npm modules
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cweiske
scroll down
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cweiske
I didn't even need an anchor
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voxpelli
cweiske: yes, you can do one, but not more than one
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cweiske
look again
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Loqi
hehe
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voxpelli
now that's cheating, _fragments_
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voxpelli
but um, I do wonder why the second one is returned at all
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voxpelli
because that is two distinct URL:s (unless I've mistakenly looked up some canonical and that way accidentally turned the second one into something else)
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sebsel
it all shows how fragile webmentions are at the moment :/
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voxpelli
well, dogfooding can be labeled as fragile or as awesome :)
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petermolnar
well, one of the fast fortifications could be to check if the source contains the url AND it's proper mf2 as u-in-reply-to, u-bookmark-of, etc, and not just a simple link
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voxpelli
it reflects that we are positive community where we haven't needed to put up large defenses against one another
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sebsel
voxpelli that's true
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petermolnar
we should put a voluntary list together and start spamming eachother
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petermolnar
to force ourselves into dogfooding spam proteczion
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petermolnar
protection
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sebsel
petermolnar I already check for mf2 indeed, but I think placing a minimal h-card on your site would trigger already
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sebsel
seblog.nl/spam-this-page or something? :P
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voxpelli
probably rather dedicated ones
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voxpelli
dedicated sites*
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voxpelli
else such stuff could easily leak and affect real reputation of stuff
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voxpelli
is writing amazingly bad sentences today
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petermolnar
voxpelli is not alone
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petermolnar
yeah, that'd work: a list of people with a list of specific endpoints that should be spammed the most creative ways we can come up with
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petermolnar
including url#fragment, simple spam html, mf2 marked up spam, etc
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petermolnar
who is in?
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petermolnar
what is spamdogfooders?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "spamdogfooders" yet. Would you like to create it?
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voxpelli
imagines The Indie Spam Bot League – who will win the grand prize? Will cweiske take the win or will petermolnar, the challenger, rize to the top?
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petermolnar
reads that out loud it his head in the voice of Chris from Total Drama Island
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cweiske
the problem is that once I start blocking your server IPs, you cannot comment on normal posts
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petermolnar
the same applies for mail
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petermolnar
block it with a ttl
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cweiske
and I only have 1 IP address
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petermolnar
heh, my home isp lent me 5 ipv4 addresses :D
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petermolnar
but then again, use gh pages
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petermolnar
because you really shouldn't block those ranges for too long
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aaronpk
IP blocking is probably not the best spam solution, gotta find more interesting ones :-)
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petermolnar
domain blocking or, probably better, fuzzy url blocking
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petermolnar
(aaronpk if you're planning an evil twin for Loqi, how about Forseti , just to completely swap the god roles)
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sebsel
I now strip query and hashes from the source URL, and don't allow target==source anymore :)
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cweiske
what do you do with target URLs?
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cweiske
allow links to #heading?
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sebsel
It would also be nice to add some spam-tests to webmention.rocks, like target==source and source#hash
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sebsel
cweiske well I put it in Kirby's Router to find the page, so by then, the hash is gone
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cweiske
the solution to fake ?foo source urls would be to use the canonical URL on the source page
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aaronpk
Stripping the query string from source URL doesn't sound like a good idea all the time
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voxpelli
IP blocking is easily worked around with Amazon Lambda and such :)
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petermolnar
xyzwordpress.blog/?p=123 is valid
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aaronpk
Yeah that
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cweiske
just imagine those dreaded twitter ?utm&... links as source
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cweiske
petermolnar, which is why I said canonical
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petermolnar
meta canonical is not implemented by many
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petermolnar
wordpress does it, yes, but not all
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aaronpk
there's meta canonical, rel canonical, and microformats URL property
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cweiske
and rel=self
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cweiske
where was that? push
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aaronpk
ah yea
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voxpelli
petermolnar: rel-canonical is an SEO best practice so one can always pull the SEO card if someone hasn't implemented that
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voxpelli
cweiske: rel=self !== rel=canonical though
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petermolnar
then again, my suggestion: disable selfpings on the domain level and verify if the remote source has the target AND it's mf2 marked up AND it's within some of the known "u-" classes
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Loqi
[cweiske] #68 Replace rel=self with rel=canonical
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voxpelli
can't remember the exact distinction of rel=self though, but it's there if one reads closely
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aaronpk
cooks up a scheme to make a legit site use ?utm_campaign=xxxx the way the CMS chooses which page to render
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voxpelli
petermolnar: self-pings on domain level is very useful
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petermolnar
for which use cases?
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aaronpk
I reply to my own posts all the time
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cweiske
so that I don't have to build the "more posts on this topic" list myself
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voxpelli
petermolnar: when you eg. make a series of posts and links to the former post on that series or for some other reason make a follow up for yourself
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cweiske
or "related topics"
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cweiske
s/topics/posts
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Attempting an Instant Pot hot sauce recipe tonight! • 2 cups cherry tomatoes • 2 carrots • 1 small onion • 1.5 cups habaneros • 4 cloves garlic • 1 cup rice vinegar • 1 cup water • 1/2 cup Mustard • 1/2 tsp xanthan gum...
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voxpelli
One can eg. make a Twitter thread kind of UI by doing like Twitter and just sending replies to oneself in a long long row
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aaronpk
haha thanks loqi
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Loqi
loq has 1 karma in this channel (2 overall)
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Loqi
loqi has 61 karma in this channel (435 overall)
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Loqi
loq has 0 karma in this channel (1 overall)
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voxpelli
can't handle a keyboard today
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aaronpk
I posted a new recipe as I was cooking then posted followup note after it was done and I had eaten it
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voxpelli
I wonder if KevinMarks live tweeting tool uses threads in any way?
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voxpelli
aaronpk: did you use "u-eaten" or something then?
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aaronpk
No just a reply
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sebsel
I have a lot of that kind of selfmentions too
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aaronpk
like followup notes on the recipe
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petermolnar
u-consumed
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petermolnar
u-devoured
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cweiske
not you, me: me-consumed
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aaronpk
Oh dear
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Loqi
[voxpelli] #43 Ensure target and source can't be the same page
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voxpelli
thinking whether this discussion should actually be in #indieweb-dev
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petermolnar
".... and this is how we renamed all the u- s to me- s: me-liked, me-bookmarked... "
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cweiske
did someone write a push-fat-ping2email tool, or do I have to do that myself?
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petermolnar
voxpelli the trouble is: no more self-fragmentions
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petermolnar
cweiske are you really going through with that?
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cweiske
not for webmentions, I need it for websub
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voxpelli
cweiske: a tool that just emails whatever weird payload you're getting as a a mime-payload in an email or?
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voxpelli
or that parses and formats it?
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cweiske
ok. my goal is to get notified by mail or xmpp whenever I'm mentioned in IRC and I'm offline
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voxpelli
I'm building a websub to webpush tool that parses the entries, that's different' but not extremely different
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cweiske
since my search engine is already indexing every chat line, it should be the one notifying me
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cweiske
but I don't want to build email sending into it, I want to register some tool as websub subscriber to my search engine
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cweiske
and that tool gets notified by websub from my search engine that i was mentioned
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cweiske
so I can plug anything into it
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cweiske
email, xmpp, whatever
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cweiske
basically a small superfeedr
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cweiske
but built on standards(tm)
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cweiske
ok, time to go home
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voxpelli
similar as well
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Loqi
[PaulKinlan] rss-to-web-push: Pubsubhubbub to Web Push.
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[kevinmarks]
Voxpelli - yes noterlive does thread by default. There's a 'break thread' button but it's in the wrong place really
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voxpelli
[kevinmarks]: do you do any micropub PESOS/POSSE:ing with it as well? I can't remember – because it would be neat to follow such a thread in realtime by following the Salmentions that reaches the first post
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[kevinmarks]
Not yet, no. It is a feature request, but I have not yet built it.
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@sl007
@sjockers Moin, wie sieht es denn mit Dir und unserem charmanten workshop aus ? https://indieweb.org/2017/Dortmund ? beim CAMPFIRE ...
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dgold
cweiske - you could use some sort of a hook in a persistent irc session - say znc or similar
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Is the #Indieweb easy? No, it isn’t. Is it hard? That depends on what you mean by hard. I flailed about when I started this journey, looking for positive answers and simple solutions, and was disheartened when they weren’t there. But I persevered, and I’m glad I did. I have functioning webmentions on my site and I ended up writing my own micropub endpoint. Most importantly, I don’t work in computer programing, so I’d like to knock that strawman down. This is a philosophical quest for me, a form of askesis, and one I’ve enjoyed every moment of." by dgold@ascraeus.org (Daniel Goldsmith) on 2017-07-27 https://ascraeus.org/micro/1501178407/
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dgold
and thus the disjunct between my need for proper typography and interoperability raises its ugly escaped head
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[kevinmarks]
If you use the unicode punctuation characters it shouldn't escape them “”
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tantek
good morning #indieweb! newsletter day!
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "An Introduction to the IndieWeb | AltPlatform" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-07-28 http://boffosocko.com/2017/07/28/an-introduction-to-the-indieweb-altplatform/
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tantek
reads
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Loqi
[indienews] New post: "An Introduction to the IndieWeb – AltPlatform" http://altplatform.org/2017/07/28/an-introduction-to-the-indieweb/ (from https://aaronparecki.com/2017/07/28/5/)
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[chrisaldrich]
Upvotes on that ^^ in HackerNews are welcome ? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14875357
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Loqi
[chrisaldrich] An Introduction to the IndieWeb
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dgold
[kevinmarks]: I'm using Hugo's system
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aaronpk
HN doesn't count upvotes from direct links, better to navigate to https://news.ycombinator.com/newest and find it there
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dgold
[kevinmarks]: you made a hugo theme using tufte's system - can it be changed at theme level, or is it at process level?
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Loqi
[Nicolas Hoffmann] Nicolas Hoffmann retweeted this.
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tantek
might need some markup help :)
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tantek
builds on drewinthehead and rachelandrewuk's great work, and aaronpk's work on webmention.io!
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@rachelandrew
I had to turn off comments on my recent posts due to them being used as a vector for anonymous abuse. New site will use Web Mentions.
(twtr.io/1TYY9cNcnSw)
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dgold
[kevinmarks]: Hugo uses BlackFriday for those
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tantek
[chrisaldrich]++ great post!
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Loqi
chrisaldrich has 38 karma in this channel (50 overall)
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Loqi
[Chris Aldrich] An Introduction to the IndieWeb
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jeremycherfas
Great stuff chrisaldrich
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Loqi
[Emre Sokullu] Why we should all care about Open Web
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tantek
great featured image from Indie Map with snarfed at the center :)
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@WorkingWriter
"Get started building the internet you’ve always wanted" An Introduction to the IndieWeb http://altplatform.org/2017/07/28/an-introduction-to-the-indieweb/
(twtr.io/1UQd7eA2hqf)
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[chrisaldrich]
I think aaronpk beat me to the bookmark, so that Intro article should show up in the newsletter.
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tantek
woohoo!
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aaronpk
is fast
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[chrisaldrich]
thinks that aaronpk is using Loqi like a toadie... "Yesssss master!" ?
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tantek
sebsel: hmm - is this really true? I haven't heard it called that: https://indieweb.org/Discoverability
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tantek
I've heard of the general notion of discovery, which I think we've documented
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tantek
what is discovery
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Loqi
Discovery for the IndieWeb is a set of algorithms to start with a URL like a home page or post permalink, and determine information about that URL, such as authorship, page-name, and date published https://indieweb.org/discovery
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tantek
but not *just* about people
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tantek
what is discoverability
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Loqi
Discoverability is about finding new people to follow, and getting other people to follow you https://indieweb.org/Discoverability
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sebsel
It's a different kind of discovery, or not?
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tantek
also why capital "D"?
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tantek
no it's included
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sebsel
Yeah I wonder about that too now
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tantek
"set of algorithms … such as authorship"
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tantek
we already have a page about the feature for finding new people to follow
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tantek
what is suggested friends
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "suggested friends" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek
what is suggested follow
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Loqi
who to follow is a feature on a site that suggests people or other accounts to follow, likely using a recommendation engine https://indieweb.org/suggested_follow
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tantek
that's it ^^^
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tantek
and it's a specific feature, not an abstract concept
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tantek
anyway - unless you saw "discoverability" referred in this way in particular, I don't think we should make that up
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sebsel
forgive me for not being native English
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tantek
and better to just redirect it to /discovery because it sounds nearly the same (thus confusing if it means something different)
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sebsel
I just thought I found something we didn't have
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tantek
I didn't see any links to what you found though
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tantek
that's why I was confused
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tantek
if it's ok with you, I'll make it just redirect to /discovery - and if/when you do find citations of "discovery" or "discoverability" meaning what you found, please add them there?
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sebsel
I am okay with that
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sebsel
it's shouldn't have a capital either way
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tantek
is going through current newsletter draft and looking at new pages
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tantek
what is nanopub
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Loqi
Nanopub is a micropub endpoint for use in static blog engines, written by Daniel Goldsmith https://indieweb.org/nanopub
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tantek
ok that's enough fix up for now. I'll wait for the next newsletter draft to re-review
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@johnjohnston
a post false likes An Introduction to the IndieWeb – AltPlatform. What a brilliant post. If you read one ... http://johnjohnston.info/blog/an-introduction-to-the-indieweb-altplatform/
(twtr.io/1UQhYV3oyx4)
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gRegorLove
Good morning, indieweb
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tantek
huh - wonder if that was from a WordPress plugin misparsing h-entry? p-name?
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tantek
the "a post false" is actually in the tweet
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@falcon_autotech
Our stand at #IWS2017 was visited by several International visitors, Praising Indigenously built Falcon's Sortation… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/890992900363792384
(twtr.io/1UQjW38ZrD4)
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tantek
oh hey I should built some of that Sortation
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tantek
build*
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tantek
what is sortation
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "sortation" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek
what is a sortation system?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "sortation system" yet. Would you like to create it?
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GWG
I subscribed to anomalilys feed after the Summit. She has her check-ins there. I feel like I am following her. I am thinking I need to build a solution for this.
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GWG
Time to get to whitewashing the fence
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@schmarty
“Make a list of what you use most often on your old social media silos or wish they had and work on that first.” http://altplatform.org/2017/07/28/an-introduction-to-the-indieweb/
(twtr.io/1UQoBu_fmdw)
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "An Introduction to the IndieWeb – AltPlatform" by Stephen Pieper on 2017-07-28 http://altplatform.org/2017/07/28/an-introduction-to-the-indieweb
sebboh`, KevinMarks, j12t, [eddie] and tantek joined the channel
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Loqi
Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-07-28.html
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tantek
well there we go
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tantek
no photos from Wellington or Fort Collins?
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Zegnat
Fort Collins called quits early, I don’t think any photo was made.
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@ricmac
The first ever Homebrew Website Club in Wellington, NZ was a bit like this...only @treitnauer & I turned up :) #indieweb https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFpuT4BWsAAgrIV.jpg
(twtr.io/1UKgfQGWu_f)
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@treitnauer
@ricmac We forgot to take an official photo but this one captures it perfectly. ?
(twtr.io/1ULz8mHdnFD)
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tantek
and just asked in the FB event for Fort Collins
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Liked this tweet: ChrisAldrich on Twitter: “An Introduction to the #IndieWeb https://t.co/lC14gMi9Wb“" by Scott Kingery on 2017-07-28 http://techlifeweb.com/16398-2/
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tantek
adactio++
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Loqi
adactio has 36 karma in this channel (40 overall)
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Loqi
[Jeremy Keith] Posting to my site
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@ricmac
This is a brilliant overview of what #IndieWeb is & how to participate -> An Introduction to the IndieWeb http://www.altplatform.org/2017/07/28/an-introduction-to-the-indieweb/
(twtr.io/1UR2nDZWmpf)
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Favorite tweet by @ChrisAldrich" by Scott Kingery on 2017-07-28 http://techlifeweb.com/favorite-tweet-by-chrisaldrich-4/
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Loqi
Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-07-28.html
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@desparoz
A great read on the IndieWeb. ? An Introduction to the IndieWeb — http://altplatform.org/2017/07/28/an-introduction-to-the-indieweb/
(twtr.io/1UR6AvVdoxc)
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[kevinmarks]
Can we persuade ej to join the chat?
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[kevinmarks]
Is that nick?
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Loqi
eddie has 14 karma in this channel (23 overall)
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Loqi
replying to a post on www.jeremycherfas.net Is the #Indieweb easy? No, it isn’t. Is it hard? That depends on what you mean by hard. ...
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TheGillies
>is the #Indieweb easy? No, it isn’t.
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TheGillies
super easy if you use a third party platform like known
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TheGillies
unless not-easy == installing software
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[eddie]
That was dgold++ by the way ?
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[eddie]
dgold++
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Loqi
dgold has 15 karma in this channel (19 overall)
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tantek
can't read sometimes.
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tantek
dgold++ :)
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Loqi
dgold has 16 karma in this channel (20 overall)
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[kevinmarks]
dgold: looks like blackfriday is what is injecting ’ etc
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[kevinmarks]
which is annoyingly retro
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Loqi
[mrdomino] #345 UTF-8 output
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tantek
utf8++
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Loqi
utf8 has 3 karma
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[kevinmarks]
looks like that aprt fo the code is being actively modified, guillemot support was tweaked yesterday