#indieweb 2017-07-31

2017-07-31 UTC
plindner, M-hotzeplotz, lucaconti[m], takyoji[m], zoglesby, pniedzielski[m], mindB, AlanPearce[m], TheGillies, myfreeweb, Salt[m], M-mxuribe, garlox[m], strk[m], eli_oat[m], doubleloop[m], schmarty, M-podviaznikov, tokelove[m], crasch[m], DYM[m], jaduncan[m], j-hernandez[m], deep-book-gk, [miklb], eli_oat, AngeloGladding, tantek, endi, wolftune, gRegorLove, GK1wmSU, _GK1wmSU, cweiske, barpthewire and jihaisse joined the channel
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Zegnat aaronpk if you are still looking for recipe examples, Isi of HWC Ft Collins has http://yummykitchen.isabelforester.com/
tantek, [kevinmarks], AngeloGladding, Pierre-O, KevinMarks, davidmead, KevinMarks_, [jeremycherfas] and barpthewire joined the channel
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@voxpelli This is important. The social web in particular has some catching up to do here. Happy we have eg. @indiewebcamp https://twitter.com/AaronGustafson/status/891976231926759426 (twitter.com/_/status/891980751650119680)
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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sknebel good morning jeremycherfas
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petermolnar this accumulated a surprising amount of feedback today: https://arslan.io/2017/07/30/why-i-left-medium-and-moved-back-to-my-own-domain/
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petermolnar and I'm not sure, why
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petermolnar also, the first paragraph - "Setting up a domain was difficult" - ... if that is hard, indieweb is near impossible at the moment.
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sebsel petermolnar Isn't that talking about setting up a domain on Medium? That could be difficult. I don't think he means setting up a domain in general?
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sknebel right. On Medium you can't add a domain self-service, but have to request it manually and wait for it
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petermolnar but that's not hard
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petermolnar and yes, it's about setting up a domain on medium
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petermolnar which still doesn't require any technical skill, eg. setting up a dns record
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petermolnar but I might be mistaken
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sknebel it doesn'T sound like it was a technical "hard"
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sknebel but a "why is medium making this intentionally more complicated than it has to be"
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sknebel (I assume with the answer: because they'd prefer you to not do it and blast on-brand medium.com urls to the world)
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sknebel +instead
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sebsel From the article: "The whole thing was just confusing and I think it was deliberately done to prevent personal users using their own domains.", so he think's the same ;)
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petermolnar https://help.medium.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003415108 - "This allows us to buy an SSL certificate for your domain or subdomain" o.O
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petermolnar ok, this may actually be a terrible experience
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sebsel Also interesting is point 3.
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sebsel "Writing comments to Medium posts feels awkward because each comment is treated as a blog post. Even if you just write couple of words, that particular comment will now be seen in your profile page forever."
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sebsel I mean, it's the same with IndieWeb comments, and dgold was complaining about that a few days ago.
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sebsel Of course, on one's own site, one can display comments however they want.
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sknebel right. many of us don't show them, or at least don't show them prominently
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sknebel but it's interesting to consider for plugins, CMSes, ...
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sebsel I hide them from my homepage feed too.
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sebsel Yes.
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sebsel What is Medium?
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Loqi Medium is an article hosting silo https://indieweb.org/Medium
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sebsel Ah, article is already there.
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[kevinmarks] I put my comments on known.kevinmarks.com
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Zegnat re Medium conversation earlier: Kickstarter does the same thing, all comments you leave are stuck on your personal profile page IIRC
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gRegorLove Good morning, indieweb
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petermolnar it's an interesting question though; comment silos with reasonable interface - hn, reddit, etc - are popular to generate responses, not always useful, though, and it's simple to follow the discussion, whereas with each-comment-is-a-post, this becomes exponentially complicated
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[davidmead] sebsel I’ve made the same point about indieweb comments and replying to them ages ago. Having a reply, to a reply, as a new post seems odd
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[davidmead] though I do get the thinking behind it
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petermolnar I've tried to hack this with WP, using an actual comment to reply to a reply
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petermolnar but to reply to a remote post, it still had to be a post
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aaronpk i've added fragment ID support to my comment parsing (via XRay) so in theory someone could write a bunch of replies on the same page and send webmentions with fragment IDs to mee
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petermolnar (I did not succeed though because WP doesn't let you render render the comments under an actual permalink only under a url#frament)
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sl007 Hello everyone - I saw "Brighton" at the planning page and wonder what the status is because NOW I also saw this page https://mozillafestival.org/proposals which is 27th/28th October ???
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sl007 in London ...
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@davebriggs "An Introduction to the IndieWeb" - http://altplatform.org/2017/07/28/an-introduction-to-the-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/892050589806456836)
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petermolnar sl007 I wanted to write a proposal to there but I didn't have time
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petermolnar as for Brighton, I tried to ping adactio, but so far I'm unaware of any plans :(
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sl007 petermolnar now I saw that KnightFoundation sent me this URL 24hours before deadline - August 1th ;) how about pinging adactio now ? and aaronpk and tantek what do you think (if Mozilla would pay travel) I could quickly write a proposal (see above) …
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sl007 Hi tantek ! - got a mail with https://mozillafestival.org/proposals in London (see above) but ironically 24h before submission deadline. Do you know the status of "Brighton" and how do you think ?
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gRegorLove adactio is probably quicker to get in touch with via https://adactio.com/contact/ or Twitter than IRC
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Loqi Jeremy Keith
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sl007 gReforLove - ok. just tweeted him. brb.
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sebsel re comments having their own post: those of us who support IndieWeb liking have an even more 'empty' type of post. A like is nothing more than a URL and the fact that it is a like.
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sebsel Having likes on my site makes comments actually a more 'fuller' post type
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sebsel But I take it that people who are struggling with hosting their own outgoing comments, are not even considering hosting their own outgoing likes.
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Zegnat Some might want to treat likes like bookmarks, which could also be an easier sell than self-hosting comments
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Zegnat It’s all up to what data someone wants to keep available on their own end
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sknebel I personally hate the fact that most micropub clients insist on treating likes and bookmarks as "empty"
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sebsel I was thinking of that, indeed. Likes as an archive.
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sebsel sknebel You want to add more info to the like? I fetch the post via XRay, and actually download the image (if it's a photo) to my own site, not for display, but for archive.
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sebsel What else is there to add to the like?
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aaronpk bookmarks aren't "empty"
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aaronpk they have a name, as well as tags, and sometimes even content like a blockquote
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jeremycherfas Not to stir up anything, aaronpk, buyt when I post a bookmark from Quill to Known, Known strips all the content. Not Quill’s fault, I realise.
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sebsel I have them quite "empty" now too, but I've been wanting to change that for some while.
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sknebel sebsel: IMHO like could have a comment as well, and I'm pretty sure I've seen bookmark interfaces that didn't have a content field (but misremembered at least some cases, just re-checked some examples)
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sebsel Especially the "Optional note about why I bookmarked it"
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Zegnat I think I have some likes-with-text
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Zegnat Mostly because of the way I author things. I write a note and slap the like-of on an A element
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sebsel sknebel Hm, yeah, but my display of external likes on a post will drop the text. It will just display as a facepile. I think most consuming sites will drop that comment text.
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sknebel that's fine
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sl007 petermolnar , ok. It would probably only make sense to write a proposal if we'd know how aaronpk, tantek and Jeremy think about location London and date in Oct. https://mozillafestival.org/proposals
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tantek write & submit a proposal first, worry about details like that later
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sl007 Sorry. Off for 20 mike
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sl007 ups. tantek : ok, will do so …
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Zegnat You don’t need tantek, aaronpk, or adactio to do a session of MozFest though, right?
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tantek right
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Zegnat If you want to talk people through the building blocks of the IndieWeb (if dev audience, which I expect at MozFest?), just do it :)
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Zegnat Or get in touch with calum and barry, the London HWC organisers.
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tantek or both!
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Zegnat They also accept in German. So you could even propose both an English and German IndieWeb session!
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Zegnat Internationalise all the things!
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/m/4pdMFYhr.jpg
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calumryan MozFest is quite a diverse event not specifically just a dev audience. As for session proposal I’ve one being considered https://github.com/MozillaFoundation/mozfest-program-2017/issues/69 - maybe respond on this?
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Loqi [mozfest-bot] #69 Introducing the IndieWeb movement
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sebsel calumryan++
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Loqi calumryan has 11 karma
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Zegnat calumryan++
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Loqi calumryan has 12 karma
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sl007 calumryan Cool - waiting for the unicorn to disappear - github "major outages" https://twitter.com/githubstatus/status/892060343920414720
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@githubstatus We are currently experiencing major service outages. (twitter.com/_/status/892060343920414720)
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sebsel sl007 https://seblog.nl/temp/media-endpoint/d72bbc-mozfest1.jpg https://seblog.nl/temp/media-endpoint/e7a05b-mozfest2.jpg
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sebsel Two links, I had it open still
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tantek do we have a /Github#Outages section yet? Or Downtime / similar? worth adding another entry
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tantek every time a silo / SPOF goes down
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sl007 sebsel - thanks ! calumryan : did you submit this already ?
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tantek ah it's here: https://indieweb.org/Github#Downtime
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tantek sl007, please add a list of specific datetimes like that tweet so we can document this over time ^^^
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tantek thanks!
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calumryan sl007: yes that’s how it’s already on their Github issues page
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sl007 calumryan++
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Loqi calumryan has 13 karma
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sl007 sebsel - just got specifications for the beamer which sounds pretty old fashioned 1024 x 768, 4 : 3 (yes, I know this already ;), "VGA" (sic) - not sure if it is because of a phone transmission failure between tech and Prof. who wrote me …
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sebsel haha, I don't have a VGA-to-Mac anymore... someone stole it years ago and I never brought a new one, cuz yeah
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Loqi hahaha
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bear for those who use command line tools (or php libs that call out to them) for image manipulation: https://usn.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3363-1/
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bear "It was discovered that ImageMagick incorrectly handled certain malformed
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bear image files. If a user or automated system using ImageMagick were tricked
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bear cause a denial of service or possibly execute code with the privileges of
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bear into opening a specially crafted image, an attacker could exploit this to
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bear the user invoking the program."
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aaronpk ... again?!
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bear yep - a regression
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[kevinmarks] @sl007 I'm London available (3 hours away by train)
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gRegorLove https://twitter.com/adactio/status/892067026176536576
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@adactio @sl007 I haven’t made any concrete plans for a Brighton Indie Web Camp—probably best to assume it’s not happening anytime soon. (twitter.com/_/status/892067026176536576)
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tantek well, on the bright side that means we should forge ahead with IWC NYC plans (GWG)
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aaronpk i keep thinking about this contention between the two worldviews of "own your comments" vs "i don't want to have to write in my own space to leave a comment"
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tantek "i don't want to have to write in my own space to leave a comment" == too ashamed of what they have to write
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tantek just going to put that out there
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aaronpk possibly
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aaronpk but also it is extra work
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tantek AKA drive-by comments
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tantek the "extra work" part we should minimize. e.g. paracomments right - that service cweiske built
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aaronpk and there's also the difference between a practical solution for right now vs an ideal solution in a world where every site can interoperate
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tantek aaronpk want to at least capture the "i don't want to have to write in my own space to leave a comment" somehow succinctly on /reply#Issues ?
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tantek and then we can capture pro/con of what that might mean there?
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tantek "practical solution for right now" in the context of comments = too spammy/ragey/trolly bother adding to your site. Whether disqus, FB, etc.
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tantek I'd also hypothesize that there might be some blowhards there (subset of drive-by commenters)
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tantek is archiving lots of stuff before intl travel
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tantek wishes iOS would use 5 digit numbers for IMG_NNNN file names
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sebsel commentpara.de * < the thing cweiske made
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tantek (too easy to rollover in a single year - yes, >10k photos in one year)
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tantek what is commentpara
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "commentpara" yet. Would you like to create it?
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sebsel what is commentparade?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "commentparade" yet. Would you like to create it?
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sebsel what is commentpara.de?
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Loqi commentpara.de is an anonymous commenting system for the indieweb https://indieweb.org/commentpara.de
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tantek commentpara is /commentpara.de
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Loqi ok
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sebsel commentparade is [[commentpara.de]]
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Loqi ok
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sebsel lol
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tantek :D
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sebsel I think not adding the comments to your homepage feed / or even in a different "CMS" so to speak, might be an answer too, given that the way of posting to those can be streamlined with a micropub endpoint or something
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sebsel But it's worth capturing as a criticism, because it has come up a few times now
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tantek as an Issue, but yeah
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tantek agreed with omitting your replies from your homepage feed as a key approach (real world, aaronpk does this)
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sebsel http://indieweb.org/comments#Issues links to "1.2.2 Issues", under "How to markup"
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sebsel Add a new one under "6 Discussion" ?
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aaronpk captured two distinct issues i've heard of https://indieweb.org/reply#Issues
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tantek huh - maybe that 1.2.2 should be renamed to "markup issues"
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tantek also plenty of prior art here. people are used to doing this "in their own space" due to Tumblr, Twitter, Statusnet, Diaspora, Mastodon etc.
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sebsel Ah, reply = on your site, comment = display replies from other people.
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tantek it's kind of the trend, and I've yet to see a real use-case beyond "drive-by comments", which frankly I think are *good* to design against and discourage
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tantek sebsel yes
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tantek or rather, just use IRC / email for drive-by comments ;)
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aaronpk what is a drive-by comment?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "drive-by comment" yet. Would you like to create it?
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sketchess Good morning Loqi. Good morning Indieweb.
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sebsel I am just capturing. I host all my (new) replies, today I even POSSE/PESOSed four forum replies :)
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sebsel And I hide them from the front page as well.
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sebsel Morning sketchess!
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sketchess :) greetings
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sketchess sebsel: the cake lasted only 24 hours xD
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sebsel sketchess You can discuss the cake in the #indieweb-chat channel, so we can keep it on topic here :)
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sketchess no
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tantek what is a sticker
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Loqi sticker is either a real life IndieWeb sticker, or an often cartoony picture you can send in reply to or add to a post on some silo's https://indieweb.org/sticker
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tantek sebsel what's the difference between a sticker reply and a reacji?
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tantek or what's special about a sticker vs a photo reply?
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sebsel A reacji has to be an emoji, right? A sticker can be any (proprietory(??)) image provided by the silo.
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tantek then second question :)
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sebsel And a sticker is more a cartoon, whereas a photo is a photo?
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sebsel Example I want to add to /sticker: https://indieweb.org/File:2017-079-swarm-ipod6-ios10-checkin-stickers.png
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tantek not really - I've seen plenty of photo comments on github issue threads, often memes
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tantek (gifs not "photos")
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sebsel That's true! But the-- yeah, gifs.
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tantek what is a photo reply
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Loqi photo reply is a reply with a photo, thus also a photo post that is in-reply-to another post https://indieweb.org/photo_reply
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sebsel I think it's a silo feature, because within silo's, they are different.
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sebsel Facebook messenger allows you to send either a picture, a gif, or a sticker.
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tantek ah, perhaps a sticker is a photo reply that only has a single photo
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sebsel They often come in packs, which you can download.
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tantek as the receiver can you tell the difference between a gif or a sticker? or a gif of a sticker? or a photo of a sticker?
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sebsel I think an Indie sticker reply can be just a photo-post, markup-wise.
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tantek I think they may be the same thing
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tantek not just markup-wise, but conceptually, and this is a branding difference
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tantek just like a tweet or toot is just a /note
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sebsel goes to stalk Zegnat on Facebook messenger
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sketchess o.O
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tantek sticker << photo reply
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Loqi ok, I added "[[photo reply]]" to the "See Also" section of /sticker
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sebsel It seems like stickers don't really have borders.
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sebsel I agree that they are very close... :/
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sebsel You can pick stickers by mood in Fb messenger. https://seblog.nl/temp/media-endpoint/bbec57-sticker-picker.jpg
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tantek what is Facebook Messenger
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Facebook Messenger" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is FB Messenger
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "FB Messenger" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek FB Messenger is [[Facebook Messenger]]
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Loqi ok
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sebsel Facebook isn't really web either.
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sebsel But Swarm supports sticker replies.
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tantek Facebook << Facebook Messenger
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Loqi ok, I added "Facebook Messenger" to the "See Also" section of /Facebook
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tantek what is iMessage
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Loqi iMessage is a messaging service by Apple on iOS and MacOS platforms https://indieweb.org/imessage
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tantek sebsel ^^ still worth documenting as it's a feature of a silo
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sebsel When aaronpk left The Netherlands, I replied to his Schiphol checkin on Swarm with a sticker.
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sebsel Then I thought: how do I get this on my own site?
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sebsel So I did a reacji.
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sebsel https://seblog.nl/2017/06/21/2/waves
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Loqi [Sebastiaan Andeweg] ?
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sebsel https://aaronparecki.com/2017/06/21/19/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Heading home — with anomalily
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sebsel aaronpk's post shows both the sticker and the reacji.
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@ricmac My latest AltPlatform post explores information overload in #IndieWeb & how to filter out the checkins. http://www.altplatform.org/2017/07/31/filter-the-indieweb-firehose/ (twitter.com/_/status/892103006107213824)
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk i think I need to do a post about my content-specific feeds too
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sebsel what is a sticker?
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Loqi A sticker is either a real life IndieWeb sticker, or an often cartoony picture you can send in reply to or add to a post on some silo's https://indieweb.org/sticker
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sebsel I still think stickers are really close to IndieWeb photo replies and should not be treaded special in the pluming way. But I've got plenty of distinctions in how they are used on Silo's to say that they are indeed their own thing there.
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gRegorLove Yeah, seems like those are albums of photo replies you can use, which is a convenient UI for replying.
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sebsel yeah, stickers are often limited in availability, and having your own site makes things quite limitless, but unlocking new stickers in your convenient UI might bring the same feeling across.
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gRegorLove Giphy.com makes replying with GIFs easier. I think that's what Twitter uses. I know Peach does/did use it, too.
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gRegorLove Kind of related
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sebsel It's what Facebook uses too. https://indieweb.org/File:2017-07-31-sticker-and-gif-in-facebook-messenger.jpg
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sebsel I don't know if sticker reply === gif reply
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sebsel But they are similar.
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gRegorLove I meant the UI for selecting them.
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sebsel In the end, they are all photo replies.
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sebsel Ah!
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sebsel I see the input field on Facebook says 'Search GIFs across apps...' that would suggest they use multiple sources.
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Homebrew Website Club PDX" on 2017-07-31 http://calagator.org/events/1250472302
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club PDX on Wednesday, Aug 9, 5:30pm at DreamHost
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@kevinmarks Nicely done. Now for indiewebify.me and maybe http://webmention.herokuapp.com https://twitter.com/michlbrmly/status/892064590514749443 (twitter.com/_/status/892145158787133443)
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