#indieweb 2017-07-31

2017-07-31 UTC
plindner, M-hotzeplotz, lucaconti[m], takyoji[m], zoglesby, pniedzielski[m], mindB, AlanPearce[m], TheGillies, myfreeweb, Salt[m], M-mxuribe, garlox[m], strk[m], eli_oat[m], doubleloop[m], schmarty, M-podviaznikov, tokelove[m], crasch[m], DYM[m], jaduncan[m], j-hernandez[m], deep-book-gk, [miklb], eli_oat, AngeloGladding, tantek, endi, wolftune, gRegorLove, GK1wmSU, _GK1wmSU, cweiske, barpthewire and jihaisse joined the channel
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Zegnat
aaronpk if you are still looking for recipe examples, Isi of HWC Ft Collins has http://yummykitchen.isabelforester.com/
tantek, [kevinmarks], AngeloGladding, Pierre-O, KevinMarks, davidmead, KevinMarks_, [jeremycherfas] and barpthewire joined the channel
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@voxpelli
This is important. The social web in particular has some catching up to do here. Happy we have eg. @indiewebcamp https://twitter.com/AaronGustafson/status/891976231926759426
(twitter.com/_/status/891980751650119680)
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jeremycherfas
Good morning IndieWeb
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sknebel
good morning jeremycherfas
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petermolnar
and I'm not sure, why
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petermolnar
also, the first paragraph - "Setting up a domain was difficult" - ... if that is hard, indieweb is near impossible at the moment.
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sebsel
petermolnar Isn't that talking about setting up a domain on Medium? That could be difficult. I don't think he means setting up a domain in general?
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sknebel
right. On Medium you can't add a domain self-service, but have to request it manually and wait for it
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petermolnar
but that's not hard
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petermolnar
and yes, it's about setting up a domain on medium
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petermolnar
which still doesn't require any technical skill, eg. setting up a dns record
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petermolnar
but I might be mistaken
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sknebel
it doesn'T sound like it was a technical "hard"
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sknebel
but a "why is medium making this intentionally more complicated than it has to be"
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sknebel
(I assume with the answer: because they'd prefer you to not do it and blast on-brand medium.com urls to the world)
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sknebel
+instead
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sebsel
From the article: "The whole thing was just confusing and I think it was deliberately done to prevent personal users using their own domains.", so he think's the same ;)
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petermolnar
https://help.medium.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003415108 - "This allows us to buy an SSL certificate for your domain or subdomain" o.O
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petermolnar
ok, this may actually be a terrible experience
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sebsel
Also interesting is point 3.
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sebsel
"Writing comments to Medium posts feels awkward because each comment is treated as a blog post. Even if you just write couple of words, that particular comment will now be seen in your profile page forever."
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sebsel
I mean, it's the same with IndieWeb comments, and dgold was complaining about that a few days ago.
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sebsel
Of course, on one's own site, one can display comments however they want.
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sknebel
right. many of us don't show them, or at least don't show them prominently
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sknebel
but it's interesting to consider for plugins, CMSes, ...
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sebsel
I hide them from my homepage feed too.
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sebsel
What is Medium?
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Loqi
Medium is an article hosting silo https://indieweb.org/Medium
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sebsel
Ah, article is already there.
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[kevinmarks]
I put my comments on known.kevinmarks.com
eli_oat, M-hotzeplotz, plindner, takyoji[m], pniedzielski[m], AlanPearce[m], lucaconti[m], TheGillies, M-mxuribe, Salt[m], myfreeweb, zoglesby, garlox[m], strk[m], eli_oat[m], mindB, doubleloop[m], schmarty, M-podviaznikov, tokelove[m], j-hernandez[m], jaduncan[m], crasch[m] and DYM[m] joined the channel
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Zegnat
re Medium conversation earlier: Kickstarter does the same thing, all comments you leave are stuck on your personal profile page IIRC
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gRegorLove
Good morning, indieweb
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petermolnar
it's an interesting question though; comment silos with reasonable interface - hn, reddit, etc - are popular to generate responses, not always useful, though, and it's simple to follow the discussion, whereas with each-comment-is-a-post, this becomes exponentially complicated
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[davidmead]
sebsel I’ve made the same point about indieweb comments and replying to them ages ago. Having a reply, to a reply, as a new post seems odd
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[davidmead]
though I do get the thinking behind it
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petermolnar
I've tried to hack this with WP, using an actual comment to reply to a reply
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petermolnar
but to reply to a remote post, it still had to be a post
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aaronpk
i've added fragment ID support to my comment parsing (via XRay) so in theory someone could write a bunch of replies on the same page and send webmentions with fragment IDs to mee
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petermolnar
(I did not succeed though because WP doesn't let you render render the comments under an actual permalink only under a url#frament)
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sl007
Hello everyone - I saw "Brighton" at the planning page and wonder what the status is because NOW I also saw this page https://mozillafestival.org/proposals which is 27th/28th October ???
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sl007
in London ...
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petermolnar
sl007 I wanted to write a proposal to there but I didn't have time
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petermolnar
as for Brighton, I tried to ping adactio, but so far I'm unaware of any plans :(
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sl007
petermolnar now I saw that KnightFoundation sent me this URL 24hours before deadline - August 1th ;) how about pinging adactio now ? and aaronpk and tantek what do you think (if Mozilla would pay travel) I could quickly write a proposal (see above) …
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sl007
Hi tantek ! - got a mail with https://mozillafestival.org/proposals in London (see above) but ironically 24h before submission deadline. Do you know the status of "Brighton" and how do you think ?
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gRegorLove
adactio is probably quicker to get in touch with via https://adactio.com/contact/ or Twitter than IRC
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Loqi
Jeremy Keith
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sl007
gReforLove - ok. just tweeted him. brb.
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sebsel
re comments having their own post: those of us who support IndieWeb liking have an even more 'empty' type of post. A like is nothing more than a URL and the fact that it is a like.
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sebsel
Having likes on my site makes comments actually a more 'fuller' post type
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sebsel
But I take it that people who are struggling with hosting their own outgoing comments, are not even considering hosting their own outgoing likes.
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Zegnat
Some might want to treat likes like bookmarks, which could also be an easier sell than self-hosting comments
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Zegnat
It’s all up to what data someone wants to keep available on their own end
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sknebel
I personally hate the fact that most micropub clients insist on treating likes and bookmarks as "empty"
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sebsel
I was thinking of that, indeed. Likes as an archive.
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sebsel
sknebel You want to add more info to the like? I fetch the post via XRay, and actually download the image (if it's a photo) to my own site, not for display, but for archive.
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sebsel
What else is there to add to the like?
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aaronpk
bookmarks aren't "empty"
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aaronpk
they have a name, as well as tags, and sometimes even content like a blockquote
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jeremycherfas
Not to stir up anything, aaronpk, buyt when I post a bookmark from Quill to Known, Known strips all the content. Not Quill’s fault, I realise.
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sebsel
I have them quite "empty" now too, but I've been wanting to change that for some while.
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sknebel
sebsel: IMHO like could have a comment as well, and I'm pretty sure I've seen bookmark interfaces that didn't have a content field (but misremembered at least some cases, just re-checked some examples)
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sebsel
Especially the "Optional note about why I bookmarked it"
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Zegnat
I think I have some likes-with-text
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Zegnat
Mostly because of the way I author things. I write a note and slap the like-of on an A element
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sebsel
sknebel Hm, yeah, but my display of external likes on a post will drop the text. It will just display as a facepile. I think most consuming sites will drop that comment text.
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sknebel
that's fine
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sl007
petermolnar , ok. It would probably only make sense to write a proposal if we'd know how aaronpk, tantek and Jeremy think about location London and date in Oct. https://mozillafestival.org/proposals
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tantek
write & submit a proposal first, worry about details like that later
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sl007
Sorry. Off for 20 mike
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sl007
ups. tantek : ok, will do so …
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Zegnat
You don’t need tantek, aaronpk, or adactio to do a session of MozFest though, right?
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tantek
right
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Zegnat
If you want to talk people through the building blocks of the IndieWeb (if dev audience, which I expect at MozFest?), just do it :)
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Zegnat
Or get in touch with calum and barry, the London HWC organisers.
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tantek
or both!
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Zegnat
They also accept in German. So you could even propose both an English and German IndieWeb session!
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Zegnat
Internationalise all the things!
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calumryan
MozFest is quite a diverse event not specifically just a dev audience. As for session proposal I’ve one being considered https://github.com/MozillaFoundation/mozfest-program-2017/issues/69 - maybe respond on this?
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Loqi
[mozfest-bot] #69 Introducing the IndieWeb movement
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sebsel
calumryan++
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Loqi
calumryan has 11 karma
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Zegnat
calumryan++
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Loqi
calumryan has 12 karma
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sl007
calumryan Cool - waiting for the unicorn to disappear - github "major outages" https://twitter.com/githubstatus/status/892060343920414720
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@githubstatus
We are currently experiencing major service outages.
(twitter.com/_/status/892060343920414720)
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sebsel
Two links, I had it open still
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tantek
do we have a /Github#Outages section yet? Or Downtime / similar? worth adding another entry
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tantek
every time a silo / SPOF goes down
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sl007
sebsel - thanks ! calumryan : did you submit this already ?
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tantek
sl007, please add a list of specific datetimes like that tweet so we can document this over time ^^^
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tantek
thanks!
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calumryan
sl007: yes that’s how it’s already on their Github issues page
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sl007
calumryan++
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Loqi
calumryan has 13 karma
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sl007
sebsel - just got specifications for the beamer which sounds pretty old fashioned 1024 x 768, 4 : 3 (yes, I know this already ;), "VGA" (sic) - not sure if it is because of a phone transmission failure between tech and Prof. who wrote me …
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sebsel
haha, I don't have a VGA-to-Mac anymore... someone stole it years ago and I never brought a new one, cuz yeah
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Loqi
hahaha
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bear
for those who use command line tools (or php libs that call out to them) for image manipulation: https://usn.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3363-1/
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bear
"It was discovered that ImageMagick incorrectly handled certain malformed
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bear
image files. If a user or automated system using ImageMagick were tricked
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bear
cause a denial of service or possibly execute code with the privileges of
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bear
into opening a specially crafted image, an attacker could exploit this to
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bear
the user invoking the program."
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aaronpk
... again?!
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bear
yep - a regression
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[kevinmarks]
@sl007 I'm London available (3 hours away by train)
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@adactio
@sl007 I haven’t made any concrete plans for a Brighton Indie Web Camp—probably best to assume it’s not happening anytime soon.
(twitter.com/_/status/892067026176536576)
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tantek
well, on the bright side that means we should forge ahead with IWC NYC plans (GWG)
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aaronpk
i keep thinking about this contention between the two worldviews of "own your comments" vs "i don't want to have to write in my own space to leave a comment"
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tantek
"i don't want to have to write in my own space to leave a comment" == too ashamed of what they have to write
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tantek
just going to put that out there
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aaronpk
possibly
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aaronpk
but also it is extra work
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tantek
AKA drive-by comments
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tantek
the "extra work" part we should minimize. e.g. paracomments right - that service cweiske built
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aaronpk
and there's also the difference between a practical solution for right now vs an ideal solution in a world where every site can interoperate
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tantek
aaronpk want to at least capture the "i don't want to have to write in my own space to leave a comment" somehow succinctly on /reply#Issues ?
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tantek
and then we can capture pro/con of what that might mean there?
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tantek
"practical solution for right now" in the context of comments = too spammy/ragey/trolly bother adding to your site. Whether disqus, FB, etc.
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tantek
I'd also hypothesize that there might be some blowhards there (subset of drive-by commenters)
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tantek
is archiving lots of stuff before intl travel
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tantek
wishes iOS would use 5 digit numbers for IMG_NNNN file names
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sebsel
commentpara.de * < the thing cweiske made
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tantek
(too easy to rollover in a single year - yes, >10k photos in one year)
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tantek
what is commentpara
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "commentpara" yet. Would you like to create it?
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sebsel
what is commentparade?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "commentparade" yet. Would you like to create it?
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sebsel
what is commentpara.de?
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Loqi
commentpara.de is an anonymous commenting system for the indieweb https://indieweb.org/commentpara.de
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tantek
commentpara is /commentpara.de
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sebsel
commentparade is [[commentpara.de]]
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sebsel
I think not adding the comments to your homepage feed / or even in a different "CMS" so to speak, might be an answer too, given that the way of posting to those can be streamlined with a micropub endpoint or something
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sebsel
But it's worth capturing as a criticism, because it has come up a few times now
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tantek
as an Issue, but yeah
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tantek
agreed with omitting your replies from your homepage feed as a key approach (real world, aaronpk does this)
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sebsel
http://indieweb.org/comments#Issues links to "1.2.2 Issues", under "How to markup"
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sebsel
Add a new one under "6 Discussion" ?
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aaronpk
captured two distinct issues i've heard of https://indieweb.org/reply#Issues
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tantek
huh - maybe that 1.2.2 should be renamed to "markup issues"
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tantek
also plenty of prior art here. people are used to doing this "in their own space" due to Tumblr, Twitter, Statusnet, Diaspora, Mastodon etc.
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sebsel
Ah, reply = on your site, comment = display replies from other people.
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tantek
it's kind of the trend, and I've yet to see a real use-case beyond "drive-by comments", which frankly I think are *good* to design against and discourage
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tantek
sebsel yes
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tantek
or rather, just use IRC / email for drive-by comments ;)
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aaronpk
what is a drive-by comment?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "drive-by comment" yet. Would you like to create it?
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sketchess
Good morning Loqi. Good morning Indieweb.
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sebsel
I am just capturing. I host all my (new) replies, today I even POSSE/PESOSed four forum replies :)
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sebsel
And I hide them from the front page as well.
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sebsel
Morning sketchess!
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sketchess
:) greetings
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sketchess
sebsel: the cake lasted only 24 hours xD
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sebsel
sketchess You can discuss the cake in the #indieweb-chat channel, so we can keep it on topic here :)
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sketchess
no
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tantek
what is a sticker
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Loqi
sticker is either a real life IndieWeb sticker, or an often cartoony picture you can send in reply to or add to a post on some silo's https://indieweb.org/sticker
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tantek
sebsel what's the difference between a sticker reply and a reacji?
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tantek
or what's special about a sticker vs a photo reply?
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sebsel
A reacji has to be an emoji, right? A sticker can be any (proprietory(??)) image provided by the silo.
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tantek
then second question :)
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sebsel
And a sticker is more a cartoon, whereas a photo is a photo?
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tantek
not really - I've seen plenty of photo comments on github issue threads, often memes
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tantek
(gifs not "photos")
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sebsel
That's true! But the-- yeah, gifs.
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tantek
what is a photo reply
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Loqi
photo reply is a reply with a photo, thus also a photo post that is in-reply-to another post https://indieweb.org/photo_reply
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sebsel
I think it's a silo feature, because within silo's, they are different.
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sebsel
Facebook messenger allows you to send either a picture, a gif, or a sticker.
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tantek
ah, perhaps a sticker is a photo reply that only has a single photo
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sebsel
They often come in packs, which you can download.
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tantek
as the receiver can you tell the difference between a gif or a sticker? or a gif of a sticker? or a photo of a sticker?
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sebsel
I think an Indie sticker reply can be just a photo-post, markup-wise.
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tantek
I think they may be the same thing
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tantek
not just markup-wise, but conceptually, and this is a branding difference
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tantek
just like a tweet or toot is just a /note
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sebsel
goes to stalk Zegnat on Facebook messenger
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sketchess
o.O
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tantek
sticker << photo reply
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Loqi
ok, I added "[[photo reply]]" to the "See Also" section of /sticker
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sebsel
It seems like stickers don't really have borders.
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sebsel
I agree that they are very close... :/
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sebsel
You can pick stickers by mood in Fb messenger. https://seblog.nl/temp/media-endpoint/bbec57-sticker-picker.jpg
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tantek
what is Facebook Messenger
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Facebook Messenger" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek
what is FB Messenger
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "FB Messenger" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek
FB Messenger is [[Facebook Messenger]]
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sebsel
Facebook isn't really web either.
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sebsel
But Swarm supports sticker replies.
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tantek
Facebook << Facebook Messenger
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Loqi
ok, I added "Facebook Messenger" to the "See Also" section of /Facebook
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tantek
what is iMessage
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Loqi
iMessage is a messaging service by Apple on iOS and MacOS platforms https://indieweb.org/imessage
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tantek
sebsel ^^ still worth documenting as it's a feature of a silo
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sebsel
When aaronpk left The Netherlands, I replied to his Schiphol checkin on Swarm with a sticker.
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sebsel
Then I thought: how do I get this on my own site?
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sebsel
So I did a reacji.
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Loqi
[Sebastiaan Andeweg] ?
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Heading home — with anomalily
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sebsel
aaronpk's post shows both the sticker and the reacji.
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@ricmac
My latest AltPlatform post explores information overload in #IndieWeb & how to filter out the checkins. http://www.altplatform.org/2017/07/31/filter-the-indieweb-firehose/
(twitter.com/_/status/892103006107213824)
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aaronpk
i think I need to do a post about my content-specific feeds too
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sebsel
what is a sticker?
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Loqi
A sticker is either a real life IndieWeb sticker, or an often cartoony picture you can send in reply to or add to a post on some silo's https://indieweb.org/sticker
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sebsel
I still think stickers are really close to IndieWeb photo replies and should not be treaded special in the pluming way. But I've got plenty of distinctions in how they are used on Silo's to say that they are indeed their own thing there.
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gRegorLove
Yeah, seems like those are albums of photo replies you can use, which is a convenient UI for replying.
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sebsel
yeah, stickers are often limited in availability, and having your own site makes things quite limitless, but unlocking new stickers in your convenient UI might bring the same feeling across.
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gRegorLove
Giphy.com makes replying with GIFs easier. I think that's what Twitter uses. I know Peach does/did use it, too.
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gRegorLove
Kind of related
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sebsel
I don't know if sticker reply === gif reply
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sebsel
But they are similar.
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gRegorLove
I meant the UI for selecting them.
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sebsel
In the end, they are all photo replies.
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sebsel
I see the input field on Facebook says 'Search GIFs across apps...' that would suggest they use multiple sources.
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Homebrew Website Club PDX" on 2017-07-31 http://calagator.org/events/1250472302
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Loqi
Homebrew Website Club PDX on Wednesday, Aug 9, 5:30pm at DreamHost
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