#indieweb 2017-11-16

2017-11-16 UTC
KevinMarks, electro__, KevinMarks_, friedcell and snarfed joined the channel
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tantek
[chrisaldrich]++ great offer!
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Loqi
chrisaldrich has 45 karma in this channel (59 overall)
KevinMarks, yar, Zegnat, bttf, camerongray, blueyed, ShaneHudson, electronicmaji, tantek, hs0ucy, j12t, renem and [miklb] joined the channel
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j12t
Hey everybody, I'm thinking of creating a very user-friendly end-to-end tutorial -- text, screen shots, screen videos perhaps -- for How To Set Up a Perfect Indieweb Site on Amazon EC2. From start to finish, documenting every click and command.
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j12t
And I'm looking for collaborator(s) if anybody is interested.
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aaronpk
"very easy" and "amazon" anything do not tend to go together, sounds like a challenge!
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j12t
aaronpk :-) Dave Winer did a "EC2 for Poets" some years back, and it apparently worked for some non-techie poets.
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j12t
I've done a "how to set up Nextcloud from scratch with TLS on EC2 in 5 min" video ... so it can be done
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j12t
admittedly that was less than clear, I was trying to be as fast as possible :-)
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tantek
j12t I'm also skeptical about EC2 being "very user-friendly" for anything
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[miklb]
not sure what you had in mind, but there are tutorials out there on deploying Jekyll from GitHub with CI like Travis/CircleCI to an s2 bucket. There are already a few tools for IW Jekyll
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[miklb]
s3 lol
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j12t
I was thinking of either Wordpress with the Indieweb plugins, or Known, so it's a fully "active" site.
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aaronpk
tbh digitalocean or linode would be far easier than amazon ec2 for that type of thing
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tantek
I think I would agree with [miklb]'s instincts toward something static
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[miklb]
DO has a one click WP install
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aaronpk
but that's a very particular kind of audience you're going for if you're targeting a VPS at all
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tantek
something people can setup and if they forget about, it takes zero maintenance to keep it up & running and not vuln
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tantek
whereas *anything* php/mysql requires regular software updates for vulns
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tantek
which is basically setting someone up with a periodic time tax
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tantek
that they might not even know they have
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tantek
and thus setting them up for failure when they don't do it
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j12t
IMHO anybody who runs their own site has a periodic time tax, if for nothing else than moderating comments/spam. Otherwise what's the point of the site?
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tantek
j12t not true. e.g. I have need to moderate any comments/spam :P
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tantek
have *no need to
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tantek
point of the site is to have a a presence on the web you control and own
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tantek
not other people's comments
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tantek
that's secondary at best
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tantek
see also /why
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j12t
So I'm not proposing to solve all the world's problems or do the absolutely best / most agreeable thing. I'd just like to have at least one (could be several) extremely detailed end-to-end tutorial how to get Wordpress or Known up the Indieweb style.
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j12t
Obviously I'd use UBOS for that, because it becomes much simpler. EC2 isn't going to be simpler, but it just boils down to "accept the default 5 times in the wizard" in my experience.
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tantek
j12t neither of those is gen 3 ready IMO
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j12t
Possibly so. But there's nothing wrong in making it more documented and less time consuming for previous gens either.
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[miklb]
any additional documentation on the WordPress side of configuring would be greatly appreciated, however the manner of getting it up on the web.
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j12t
miklb: that's exactly what I had in mind. "And now we will click here so we accomplish X".
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tantek
j12t agreed with "more documented and less time consuming for previous gens"
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tantek
just wanted to set expectations that "very user-friendly end-to-end" is not there, not even close
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tantek
TBH micro.blog is the closest right now
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j12t
tantek: fair point.
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j12t
micro.blog only exists on their site right now, right? So I can't run it on a server / host I choose.
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tantek
no I think they do domain hosting/aliasing?
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tantek
but yes only runs on their "server"
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j12t
So I can bring my domain name, but not run it on my server?
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tantek
right that is my understanding
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j12t
Which is fine, but I personally woulnd't want that -- susceptible to site death.
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tantek
j12t, like app.net sure
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tantek
I understand that concern. however at least micro.blog has the most indieweb building blocks support yet of any service like it
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tantek
which means it has a better chance of being part of something larger with network effects
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tantek
which means it should have a better chance of survival
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j12t
Here's what I'm thinking. 1) Outline: to run your own Indieweb Wordpress site, you need to do the following XXX steps (choose a host/server, log on/..., install Wordpress, install plugins, configure this/that etc).
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tantek
j12t - yes that has been thought before
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tantek
what is getting started with wordpress
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Loqi
By using WordPress on your own domain, you are already a part of the IndieWeb. Below are some suggestions to help you get started with upgrading your WordPress site to support IndieWeb philosophies https://indieweb.org/Getting_Started_with_WordPress
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j12t
2) some of those steps are the exact same regardless where WP runs, so we could document once)
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tantek
j12t ^^^ rather than re-invent, see what you can improve there
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j12t
3) some depend on provider, like EC2 vs cpanel
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j12t
4) Build one or more trails completely through, starting from nothing, to everything, leave out no steps
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tantek
j12t - can you incorporate your brainstorm into the existing work on that ^^^ ?
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j12t
Absolutely. If nobody complains, I will be happy to refactor suitable places on the wiki into such trails.
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j12t
And add video. It makes a world of difference for configuring software.
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tantek
j12t - join #indieweb-wordpress and chat about it with GWG and [chrisaldrich] who have been working hard on iterating that with experience with actual WordPress users
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j12t
DIdn't even know this channel existed.
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j12t
So focus on Wordpress or Known? I think Wordpress first ...
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tantek
yes - WordPress first as there is an active community there
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GWG
I'm biased. But I have a good reason
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tantek
in #Indieweb-wordpress
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j12t
GWG that's what all biased people say :-P
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tantek
that being said, there's also some active folks in #knownchat
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tantek
what is getting started with known
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Loqi
Getting Started with Known describes who could use Known for their web presence, and how to get started with it https://indieweb.org/Getting_Started_with_Known
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tantek
j12t ^^^ you can help there too
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tantek
I'm in both channels for exactly that reason
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tantek
to try to incrementally help both of those become better for new users
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j12t
I want an entirely different level of detail than a page like this. Like if there is a tar file to unpack (as an example), I want the exact command with the exact syntax
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tantek
j12t - great - discuss that in #knownchat!
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j12t
tantek: yes, I have been hanging out and asking questions there for some time ...
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tantek
j12t: did you ask who is maintaining that page and/or if you could help edit / improve it?
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j12t
Well, according to the history of Getting Started with Known, some guy called tantek has been doing most of the edits :-)
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j12t
What about this: I get my thoughts in order, and create a few (separate, unlinked) pages. I solicit feedback and improvements from IRC. I can do the low-level install part, but I'm not quite the right guy to get, say, bridgy optimally integrated. Would love some help on this.
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j12t
Once iterations pass the smell test of the community, we integrate the new pages with the existing ones. (link/merge/replace/improve/whatever)
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aaronpk
Incremental improvements in place are always welcome too
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j12t
Let's do both. I just don't want to create a construction site right in the middle of something that currently looks reasonably nice :-)
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[manton]
j12t Catching up... It's an interesting question of whether "site deaths" applies when you have your own domain name and the content is portable. Technically yes, any hosting platform can shut down. Micro.blog-hosted sites are compatible with Jekyll for this reason, so it's easy to move.
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[jeremycherfas]
J12t I can help, even if it is only testing your script.
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[jeremycherfas]
@tantek I like micro.blog a lot too, but I would argue that at the moment WithKnown is more indieweb capable out of the box. Of course, that may change as mb adds bookmarks , rsvps etc
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@kevinmarks
“People are being distorted by very finely trained AIs that figure out how to distract them” - timbl https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/15/tim-berners-lee-world-wide-web-net-neutrality #indieweb
(twtr.io/1YPGQoHVwUo)
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "“People are being distorted by very finely trained AIs that figure out how to distract them” - timbl https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/15/tim-berners-lee-world-wide-web-net-neutrality #indieweb" by Kevin Marks on 2017-11-16 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/people-are-being-distorted-by-very-finely-trained-ais-that
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jeremycherfas
Good morning IndieWeb
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cweiske
good morning
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Loqi
guten morgen
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Reply to Pingbacks: hiding in plain sight by Ian Guest" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-11-16 http://boffosocko.com/2017/11/16/reply-to-pingbacks-hiding-in-plain-sight-by-ian-guest/
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Zegnat
Goor morning
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sknebel
good morning
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@webrocker
seit vormittag in online marketing workshop bei $kunden. als indieweb, privacy, thisisforeveryone mensch drehts den magen 8x um, was 'digital lead agency' da absondert… und wie geil _alle_ auf fb pixel, tag manager, retargeting etc sind. in dem web will ich nicht mehr arbeiten.
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@kevinmarks
#FHIRdevdays17 Eyal Oren: Standards work is hard -if you do it right, nobody notices your work; if you do it wrong, nobody uses it and doesn't see your work
(twtr.io/1YPkkeE0UJ8)
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "(Partially) fixing webmention display" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-11-16 https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2017/partially-fixing-webmention-display
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tantek
woo hoo!
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tantek
manton++ really looking forward to IndieWebCamp Austin
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Loqi
manton has 27 karma in this channel (28 overall)
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[manton]
Thanks, I'm excited about it!
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Zegnat
[manton], re the site-death and micro.blog thing previously: do you have any statistics on how many people have tried backupping / exporting their micro.blogs?
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tantek
is exporting the right thing to track? or setting up with Jekyll? e.g. live to live
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Zegnat
I can’t imagine a way to track other people setting up Jekyll elsewhere. But you could track exporting behaviour if it goes through export options.
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[manton]
@Zegnat I've never looked, but I'm sure it's not a large percentage, since it does require GitHub knowledge. It pushes directly to a repository so there's nothing to remember to manage or export.
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Zegnat
Aah, that’s an interesting export function!
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[manton]
I want to add some more options that are more accessible to people, including WordPress export and maybe a .zip file.
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Zegnat
Nice!
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[manton]
The way I've approached it is that the best "export" is actually a full mirror of HTML, Markdown, images, and Jekyll config, all the time. So that's where Micro.blog started. But it's admittedly kind of advanced... There needs to be a few simpler options.
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tantek
that's a great start manton
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tantek
manton, would it be possible to produce a single HTML h-feed page as an export with all the images etc.? Then users could "simply" use their browser "Save Webpage" function to save all the files locally.
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tantek
and then they'd have a local version they could at least view
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tantek
presuming the export has mf2 markup for everything, they could even upload it to a site for h-feed import as well
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aaronpk
"upload an h-feed to a site" would end up looking awful similar to Micropub!
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aaronpk
if a site supports Micropub, it wouldn't be a huge amount of work to also make it import an h-feed backup
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tantek
aaronpk, except "upload an h-feed to a site" looks more like <input type=file> :)
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[manton]
Yeah, I don't see why not! Right now the home page HTML does have h-feed but it'll be limited to only recent posts. Could produce one that was all posts too.
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aaronpk
I meant what the site does after it gets that h-feed
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tantek
aaronpk - interesting, would you want to resend all the webmentions and such, even if all the permalinks stayed the same?
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tantek
(presumably "normal" micropub posts send webmentions for you)
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aaronpk
probably not. I would have a special "import" mode which would prevent running all the automation that normally runs on *new* posts
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tantek
that's worth distinguishing from "normal" micropub then
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tantek
what is import
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Loqi
import in the context of the indieweb refers to the ability to take an export and add it to your site https://indieweb.org/import
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tantek
aaronpk ^^^ perhaps add to Brainstorming there?
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[manton]
It feels like a better standard for blog import/export is needed. WordPress essentially uses RSS with their own extensions, which is fine, but it's not obvious how to include photos in that. (For Micro.blog, I parse the WordPress import file, look for img tags, and then download them all... But that assumes they're still online!)
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aaronpk
wasn't someone talking about an html archive format the other day?
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aaronpk
what is mhtml?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "mhtml" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[manton]
Not directly web related, but I think TextBundle is interesting too. It's Markdown + image files. http://textbundle.org
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Zegnat
petermolnar has a post about mhtml. I seem to recall it is like email, where you just append different MIME’d blobs to a document
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Zegnat
Some thoughts on packing websites into files from Berlin: https://indieweb.org/2017/Berlin/bookmarks
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Zegnat
sknebel++ for getting around to archiving the etherpads!
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Loqi
sknebel has 25 karma in this channel (72 overall)
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[eddie]
Strictly hypothetical, If one was posting to their website with their voice with a random voice assistant, but the voice assistant just immediately posted the contents without allowing the user to correct the item if there was an issue, would it make sense for the voice assistant to post immediately or would it be smart to have some sort of buffer area where you would have to go and manually click "send"?
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[eddie]
The downfall of the latter case is it removes the ability to be "hands-free". The benefit being that you prevent some potentially really strange posts from appearing on your site
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sknebel
[eddie]: how do the voice assistants do it for e-mails or notes?
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[eddie]
Currently, if you were to use Siri to create a note in the notes app, it immediately adds that text to the note
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[eddie]
no confirmation
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sknebel
and for messages?
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[eddie]
Emails and Texts they confirm
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sknebel
I kind of would have expected a second voice command to confirm for posts, or a timeout
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[eddie]
That is what I would think
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[eddie]
So removing the hypothetical part, I posted https://eddiehinkle.com/2017/11/14/9/note/ using Siri on my phone. The issue is using the APIs given, I can't force Siri to confirm my note
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Loqi
[Eddie Hinkle] I’m really excited about some of the features that are coming out in the next beta build of indigenous
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[eddie]
So either there is no backup or I have to add the note as a draft inside Indigenous, and you have to open the app later and click "post"
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sknebel
can't you do the timeout thing?
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[eddie]
What do you mean by timeout?
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sknebel
create draft, if it isn't cancelled post after 30s or so
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sknebel
like you can set an "undo delay" in gmail or other email software?
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sknebel
I assume you could hook up a siri command "cancel last post!"
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[eddie]
hmmm I don't think you can, unfortunately.
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[eddie]
Siri uses what is called "intents" so you can only hook into their existing intents
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sknebel
(hm, do we have a good term for that? just "delay"? "send delay"? everyone seems to call it slightly differently...)
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[eddie]
send delay I think makes the most sense.
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[eddie]
I can only "create" a note or "append to a note" using Siri
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[eddie]
so you would have to open the app to cancel
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[eddie]
Yeah, lol tough call. I guess I could also just add a setting in the app that allows a person to choose "Post immediately" or "Save Voice Created posts as Draft"
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[eddie]
In which case I guess you would default to save as draft
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sknebel
I mean, having to fish out the device if it goes wrong to cancel is still better than posting something immediately
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[eddie]
That's true
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sknebel
after a quick skim of the docs, I guess using the Task API instead is confusing to use? That might have a "status" for items you could use...
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sknebel
(and I guess Apple doesn't like people doing hacks like that and might not allow you to publish it like that)
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[eddie]
Yeah so 1: they don't tend to like hacks, and 2: the intent also relates to how you talk to Siri. So currently I say "Create a note using Indigenous" or "Post a note using Indigenous" and it does it. With a task you would have to literally start using words related to tasks
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[eddie]
ohhh you can customize the UI, maybe I could add a special button that allows them to tap in the moment. I'll have to look more into the UI side of Siri
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sknebel
What is send delay?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "send delay" yet. Would you like to create it?
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sknebel
send delay is a feature where new posts or messages are kept as drafts for a short time before being published/sent, allowing the user to cancel or edit them before it is to late to do so.
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[eddie]
" However, your view controllers do not receive touch events or any other events while they are onscreen, and you cannot add gesture recognizers to them. Therefore, never create an interface with controls or views that require user interactions." ?
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[eddie]
Well no "Send/Save" button being added
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sknebel
I thought someone had made an Amazon Echo client, but apparently it's not on the wiki or I can't find it
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[eddie]
I guess for now I'll have a configurable option to either "Send with 30 second delay" or "Save as Draft" so the user can choose
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sknebel
sounds good
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[eddie]
Thanks for brainstorming with me sknebel ?
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[manton]
eddie I'll be watching this to see how it goes! I had "Siri" on my to-do list for a while as well, but wasn't sure how it would work in practice with the possibility for mistakes.
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[eddie]
manton Yeah, it's super easy to implement, but with the lack of commands, it's tricky to know how often it would actually be used.
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[eddie]
oh! I just thought of something, I wonder if you save it as a draft and then send a local notification that asks what they want to do with it, with the option to send or edit (and of course they can also ignore the notification)
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[eddie]
That might be interesting, I'll have to test that out
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Zegnat
Could Siri be instructed to read out the notification? E.g. is that a way to have it read back the message and ask for post confirmation?
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[eddie]
Not in my app, but a user might be able to activate that for ALL notifications as an accessibility setting
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[eddie]
But you wouldn't be able to provide verbal confirmation
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Zegnat
Ah, hmm, that’s too bad
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Zegnat
doesn’t have an iPhone but just finished reading the brainstorm
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@voxpelli
@maggerbo Glad you like it! A media-endpoint would certainly make sense to add. At the moment I’m not able to spend any time on any IndieWeb-projects unfortunately though ? But feel free to add an issue and we can track it there ?
(twtr.io/1YQD4W1W2jJ)
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snarfed
just discovered https://siftrss.com/ . using it to filter replies out of a mastodon user feed. works great!
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[eddie]
Apple has a nice interface for verifying sending messages (like text messages) to recipients, just wish that was available for creating notes as well. I guess I should probably send that feedback to Apple. lol
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sknebel
the sending messages interface assumes things like a recipient?
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[eddie]
Yep, sending message requires a recipient (although I am interested in eventually using that with a users cache to send IndieWeb messages)
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[eddie]
hmm, unless we turned our webpages into people?
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[eddie]
"Send a message to EddieHinkle.com that says......."
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[eddie]
Wow, I just stumbled across http://busterbenson.com/ halfway down the page he has his life by weeks!
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aaronpk
wow that's a bit crazy to look at it like that
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[eddie]
It really is
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[eddie]
My mind is blown for the rest of the day
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aaronpk
I kind of want to do that now
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Zegnat
"Send a message to EddieHinkle.com that says......." - isn’t too farfetched, you could then post to different micropub endpoints from the same app
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sknebel
and since you probably can set custom names, "send a message to my blog" sounds pretty natural
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[eddie]
aaronpk: I definitely want to do it... not sure how much I want to make public though, might be one of my first major cases for private posts so I can have a private view of it
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[eddie]
Zegnat: That's true. I was thinking of doing different micropub endpoints as different "notebook folders" originally, but sending a message definitely seems like a good alternative
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[eddie]
sknebel: Could definitely set up some custom names and allow that, which would be pretty cool
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[eddie]
Awesome, I'll have to test out the "send message pathway" then because it is much nicer with the confirmation screen. It allows you to "Send or Cancel" either by voice or by tapping on the screen
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tantek
good morning #indieweb
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ben_thatmustbeme
good afternoon tantek
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tantek
is more intrigued about the stuff *after* the life-in-weeks display on busterbenson's site
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tantek
looks for a github link - there are two "2C" sections
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[eddie]
tantek That is definitely interesting as well. That is actually what landed me on his website to begin with, and that's when I noticed the life in weeks
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tantek
Buster's a smart, kind, individual. And that was from knowing him years ago, I can only imagine where he's at today, but nice to see all this on his own site
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tantek
found it
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tantek
re-reads the instructions
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Zegnat
It is an interesting site for sure! Surprised to see he has his yearly posts on Medium :/
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tantek
pull request submitted with a couple of editorial fixes. let's see what happens :)
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@ChrisAldrich
The more I think about archiving the web this week, the more value and stability I think that the W3C's Webmentions spec could be adding to the internet and copies of it. #DtMH2017 https://indieweb.org/Webmention
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@manton2
Posted a quick Timetable episode about how the http://Micro.blog photo challenge is going, and on finalizing the venue and plans for IndieWebCamp Austin. http://timetable.manton.org/2017/11/episode-79-indiewebcamp-venue/
(twtr.io/1YQZs25yRhR)
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@huffduffer
Episode 79: IndieWebCamp venue | Timetable https://huffduffer.com/aaronpk/442448
(twtr.io/1YQ_bQLenug)
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j12t
In your experience, do people usually have difficulties purchasing domain names? Starting to write a tutorial, and I wonder whether I need to cover this.
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