#indieweb 2018-02-17

2018-02-17 UTC
wolftune and PeterFD joined the channel
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@wimleers
I really want to stop using @Google Analytics on my website. So I triaged the entire @drupal 8 core "Statistics" module's issue queue, to help it get better: https://www.drupal.org/project/issues/drupal?version=8.x&component=statistics.module #indieweb #privacy /cc @timmillwood
(twitter.com/_/status/964668303896662023)
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chrisaldrich
I hope this portends the goodness I think it potentially does: https://twitter.com/Dries/status/964625341879865349
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aaronpk
Is @Dries involved with Buffer?
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chrisaldrich
His blog post daid he owns a piece of it in a manner suggestive of some influence.
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chrisaldrich
"small investor" were his words.
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aaronpk
I must have missed that
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chrisaldrich
I suspect he's also spreading the word to others in Drupal community as the @wimleers quote from Loqi above has Drupal/Acquia CTO reference in his bio.
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "@wimleers @Google @drupal @timmillwood I remember doing an #IndieWeb presentation at DrupalCamp LA a couple of years ago right after a Piwik (@matomo_org) talk and" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-02-17 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2018/wimleers-google-drupal-timmillwood-i-remember-doing-an-indieweb-presentation
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@ChrisAldrich
@wimleers @Google @drupal @timmillwood I remember doing an #IndieWeb presentation at DrupalCamp LA a couple of years ago right after a Piwik (@matomo_org) talk and it seemed like an interesting #ownyourdata solution at the time. https://www.drupal.org/project/piwik
(twitter.com/_/status/964672909187969026)
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@aj100kblog
The IndieWeb outside of Facebook is full of opportunities https://tpl.host/WSKHCMR #entrepreneur #startup https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWEtClGWkAEpyCP.jpg
(twitter.com/_/status/964101330079043584)
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chrisaldrich
grantcodes: I've noticed you (and some others) post some slides like that, but there's no immediate UI to indicate one should arrow left/right to see other slides. I suppose it's presumed one would potentially just "know", but it could be made more obvious.
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chrisaldrich
I remember keithjgrant had something with a visual indicator (as well as up/down funcitonality too) https://keithjgrant.com/talks/decentralized-web/#/
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grantcodes
Yeah just hit space. I don't usually publicize them so not too worried about the ui at the moment. The reveal library supports it I just turned it off
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chrisaldrich
I do like the progress bar at the bottom as a potential indicator, but it's not visible on the first slide.
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grantcodes
Yeah Keith's is the same, he just has the indicator turned on
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chrisaldrich
It's pretty slick, especially if you can turn that part of the UI on/off
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grantcodes
Oh yeah it's a pretty incredible piece of javascript, it has a million options
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grantcodes
But still isn't too complicated
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chrisaldrich
I missed it earlier, what's it built in?
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chrisaldrich
What is a presentation?
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Loqi
A presentation or slide deck is an online version of the visual portion of a demonstration typically presented in person at a conference, workshop, or other event https://indieweb.org/presentation
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grantcodes
reveal.js
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chrisaldrich
what is follow?
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Loqi
follow is a common feature (and often UI button) in silo UIs (like Twitter) that adds updates from that profile (typically a person) to the stream shown in an integrated reader, and sometimes creates a follow post either in the follower's stream ("… followed …" or "… is following …") thus visible to their followers, and/or in the notifications of the user being followed ("… followed you") https://indieweb.org/follow
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GWG
Evening
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chrisaldrich
Howdy GWG!
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GWG
Any exciting Indieweb thoughts around?
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chrisaldrich
There are two "follow" post examples on the /follow page, but it's never been really documented as a /posts#Kinds_of_Posts type.
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chrisaldrich
Is anyone else doing this?
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chrisaldrich
GWG, have you considered it as a type for Post Kinds?
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GWG
chrisaldrich: I have it saved for future use. But...what would it do?
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chrisaldrich
I was just monkeying around with an idea here: http://boffosocko.com/2018/02/16/following-sarah-mundy/
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Loqi
[Chris Aldrich] 🔖 Following Sarah Mundy
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GWG
Interesting.
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GWG
Would it do something else other than display?
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chrisaldrich
It could announce that you're following someone, send them a homepage webmention, and provide some potential UI for making it easy to follow them as well.
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GWG
I'm curious about the UI
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chrisaldrich
I haven't played with any of the Microsub toys yet, but I suspect it might have something along these lines built in too?
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GWG
Could be.
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chrisaldrich
The black follow button on that page is courtesy of SubToMe.org
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GWG
I haven't played with them. Read a little, but haven't done a deep dive
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chrisaldrich
It would be cool if SubToMe would parse a web page and find Social Silo presences (via rel-me perhaps) and provide those as options too...
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GWG
So, you want an Indieweb version of that?
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chrisaldrich
Something like that, yes.
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chrisaldrich
Web actions might also be a piece of the puzzle too.
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GWG
Web actions haven't gotten as much attention lately.
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chrisaldrich
Yes, they don't seem to be as widely supported as things like webmentions or micropub.
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chrisaldrich
To me a follow post seems like a cross between a note and a bookmark, but it should ideally make it easier for others to follow that person too.
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chrisaldrich
If it could also automatically add someone to my OPML (or other subscription list functionality) that would be cool too.
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chrisaldrich
I've been considering figuring out a way to create a javascript bookmarklet that dovetails with WordPress' old links manager
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chrisaldrich
but as you know, my javascript is even worse than yours...
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GWG
chrisaldrich: Is a bookmarklet the best option?
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chrisaldrich
I'm not sure, but am open to other ideas.
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GWG
Worth a brainstorm, I suppose
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GWG
So, let's take it from the top
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chrisaldrich
Though WordPress got "rid" of the link manager, it's still very functional and I find it pretty useful.
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GWG
What is the 'problem' we are trying to solve?
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GWG
Can you describe your need in a single sentence?
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chrisaldrich
You're playing the /WWTD game? :)
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GWG
chrisaldrich: I'm in it to win it
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chrisaldrich
It's a two part sentence based on the current state of the art:
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GWG
Yes?
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chrisaldrich
Create a post to indicate when I started following/subscribe to someone/something (perhaps a podcast) and make it easier for others to do the same.
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chrisaldrich
And subsequently add that subscription to a master (preferrably portable) list (OPML) that I can use in multiple readers.
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GWG
Do you want the 'following' post to be the result of following someone in another system, or cause another system to add that?
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chrisaldrich
I'd rather it all originate on my site (POSSE). Though I suppose that a reader might be able to do this in a microsub related workflow, but still post to my site perhaps via micropub?
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chrisaldrich
I'd prefer not to build something for indicating my following someone on Twitter, for example, as I'd rather encourage people to post to their own site.
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GWG
So, you publish a following post, and somehow, your reader parses your site to figure out who to follow?
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chrisaldrich
That would be ideal, but I feel like it's unlikely that a large numbers of readers might support it in the near term.
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chrisaldrich
The /SubToMe concept seems like a reasonably decentralized means of doing it, but if it had a micropub method to also make a follow post?
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GWG
chrisaldrich: They don't necessarily need to. It is a 'feed'
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chrisaldrich
The ideal is to make my list of subscriptions portable (as OPML does) so that I can move from one reader to the next if I choose, or if different readers offer different experiences that I want to take advantage of.
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GWG
But, if follow is a feed, a feed could be turned into an OPML file or something else.
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chrisaldrich
And in the IndieWeb parlance, I may not want someone's firehose feed. I might just want their "articles" feed for example.
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GWG
chrisaldrich: I was talking about a follow feed.
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chrisaldrich
Yes, that could work well too.
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GWG
So, like your articles feed, you have a follow feed. That feed can be parsed by supported readers, and someone can create a tool that converts that into OPML for non-supported ones.
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chrisaldrich
Then I'd need a parser with a possible OPML output to dump into readers? or something to put into a microsub type of workflow.
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chrisaldrich
Getting readers to support such a follow feed may be the harder piece. :)
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GWG
Yes, but isn't the first step the follow feed?
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GWG
Then finding someone to consume it?
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chrisaldrich
It would potentially mean needing a microformat for a follow feed? Or could we reuse the bits from h-card?
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GWG
Don't we have u-follow-of or such?
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GWG
You don't need a format for the feed, just for the type
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GWG
A feed is a collection of posts.
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chrisaldrich
Build an h-feed of h-cards that include u-urls for the sites I'd be following?
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GWG
It would be similar to a bookmark in style. You could either have a built-in h-card or a URL to one.
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chrisaldrich
there is a u-follow-of but I don't think many are using it. And if we could get away without having yet another microformat...
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GWG
Or some combination thereof
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chrisaldrich
Stepping away for a minute... brb
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GWG
So, what is missing here with this idea?
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chrisaldrich
With an h-feed on my entire site going back forever with h-cards, one could forseeably create a follow feed of everyone I've ever mentioned on my site
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GWG
That's a bit more invasive than having a specific follow declaration
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chrisaldrich
Yes, having a u-follow-of or something similar would be useful
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chrisaldrich
How far back would parsers potentially go into an h-feed if one had follows going back a decade?
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chrisaldrich
And how to properly handle unfollows?
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chrisaldrich
Or are we getting ahead of ourselves?
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GWG
Yes.
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GWG
Start posting follow posts with a feed of them, then someone can consume it
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chrisaldrich
Though it could be interesting if I could create a feed of people who've appeared in anything I've tagged on my site with a particular tag...
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chrisaldrich
The two examples on the /follow page use either u-x-follow-of or u-follow-of
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chrisaldrich
or a more generic follow-of?
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GWG
I like u-follow-of.
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chrisaldrich
Does Post Kinds add the appropriate u- or p- depending on where the piece lands or is it more specific?
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GWG
For consistency.
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GWG
chrisaldrich: That may be a question for #wordpress
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GWG
But, if I create the ability for you to do follow posts, assume you'd use it so someone might want to consume it?
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chrisaldrich
Oh, indeed!
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chrisaldrich
In fact, I could have sworn I'd enabled the "follow" kind manually on my production site and used it at least once before. Apparently I haven't, but I also don't see it on either of my two test sites either.
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chrisaldrich
For a WP Post Format, "link" also seems to me to be the most appropriate too. Your thoughts?
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GWG
It can be, yes.
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GWG
I'm working on the code, I'll see if I get to enabling follow for you to use
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GWG
I got Issue up for the new version
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chrisaldrich
I used a footprint icon in the wiki... thoughts on an easy icon for Post Kinds Plugin?
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GWG
I forget what I used
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chrisaldrich
That feels pretty solid. I was also thinking of variations of arrows, but yours seems better.
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chrisaldrich
These were the couple of test posts I'd made before via "categories": http://boffosocko.com/category/social-stream/follow/
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GWG
Will see what I can do
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GWG
What other speculative functions can we discuss?
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GWG
This feels like the first day of an IWC
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chrisaldrich
GWG: What makes the most sense for the URL? The homepage (which advertises an h-feed, RSS, Atom, other) or an actual feed link?
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chrisaldrich
Particularly if you're subscribed to a subsection of a persons feed, say just notes instead of checkins?
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chrisaldrich
Maybe we could push someone to add /read or /listen to /post-type-discovery, particularly since so many using your Post Kinds Plugin could be using/sending those types of webmentions?
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GWG
It's an alternative feed, I would imagine.
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chrisaldrich
I suspect there are more examples of sites using those than are listed in the wiki.
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GWG
Well, I think I switched it to listen-of to match like-of
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chrisaldrich
And I always feel awkward sending webmentions for those types when most sites don't consume them or display them properly.
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chrisaldrich
The interesting part is that if you make a change to Post Kinds Plugin along the way, hundreds of sites immediately fall in line.
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GWG
Well, what should displaying a listen-of or such be?
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GWG
It is basically the same idea as a like, only for audio material
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chrisaldrich
Does Post Kinds require a template for follows to actually display something at http://boffosocko.com/kind/follow/ for example. I manually enabled them and tried one, but get no output there.
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GWG
Usually, yes.
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chrisaldrich
My listens look like this: http://boffosocko.com/kind/listen/ but I'm typically adding an <audio> field to embed the actual .mp3 file.
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chrisaldrich
I used to add it into the Summary/Quote field in Post Kinds before you began filtering out HTML there...
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chrisaldrich
Post Kind listens could potentially have a media field and the parser could "find" them automatically for display. That would be useful.
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chrisaldrich
In practice I find that a lot of podcast pages use third party apps that embed proprietary players, so maybe 25% of pages don't have a findable .mp3 file on them.
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GWG
Feh
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chrisaldrich
Adactio may have more data on this for the machinations that Huffduffer jumps through to find .mpe files.
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chrisaldrich
There are also a fair number of either indieweb podcasts or microcasts that having a better supported "listen" webmention workflow would be nice.
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GWG
So, the best step is start posting things
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chrisaldrich
As I'm looking at some of my /listen posts from over a year ago, i'm noticing some missing data that may have happened during a change in Post Kinds. I'll have to go back and fix some of them to bring them into line....
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GWG
Stay tuned on that
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chrisaldrich
It may be for the better as I think a lot of them had a lot of html in the Summary field and is likely why the data may have been stripped out?
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chrisaldrich
GWG: Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of the templates for Post Kinds use the "Featured Image/Site Icon" field yet do they?
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GWG
chrisaldrich: Yet. I want to look at that.
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GWG
tantek: chrisaldrich suggested I was channeling you earlier
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@aj100kblog
The IndieWeb outside of Facebook is full of opportunities https://tpl.host/NMT6YS4 #startup #leancanvas https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWNoVKVW0AAs6D8.jpg
(twitter.com/_/status/964729469104803840)
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@johnroberstorey
@skoop you got me looking @ rancher a while back. POSSE is Indieweb - post to your site and auto syndicate to twitter, etc.
(twitter.com/_/status/964775524781273088)
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Zegnat
Good morning IndieWeb
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Zegnat
Hmm, did anyone link this yet? Good reason to own all your data, including just notes you take: https://mjtsai.com/blog/2018/02/16/simplenote-outage-due-to-dmca/
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chrisaldrich
With some rudimentary tweaks and very basic template, a follow list/feed: http://boffosocko.com/kind/follow/
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chrisaldrich
Not quite what I want it to be, but it's a start.
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[mrkrndvs]
[chrisaldrich] interesting work. I prefer 'follow' as opposed to liking a site or listening to a podcast. P.S
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[mrkrndvs]
are the images at the top of your posts added as Featured Images?
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[colinwalker]
@zegnat That’s *very* interesting and something definitely doesn’t smell right. A worrying precedent.
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chrisaldrich
mrkrndvs, most of them are Featured images, yes.
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chrisaldrich
I am considering how I might use the image field within Post Kinds to potentially add photos into those templates, though GWG may beat me to it.
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[kevinmarks]
For following lists/feeds xfn style could be worth doing too, as that is still there in many sites (I think WordPress still has it for blogrolls, but it is less prominent)
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[kevinmarks]
Also, have a look at the activity streams vocab for follow/listen verbs too
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chrisaldrich
thanks kevinmarks.... I've got also got a separate following page here with xfn and OPML output: http://boffosocko.com/about/following/
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Loqi
Following
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chrisaldrich
but thought I'd also experiment with follow posts which might later be parsed into an OPML file for export to feed readers.
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chrisaldrich
You don't happen to have something up your sleeve that will already munge data like that do you? ;)
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chrisaldrich
I for the following page, I swiped the WP list manager functionality from ages ago and fed it out into a page instead of the more "traditional" sidebar widget.
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chrisaldrich
I like that I can take the OPML file that it puts out and use it to subscribe to the OPML feed in feed readers like Inoreader. That way when I make additions to my site, my feed reader picks them up automatically.
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Zegnat
I think XOXO parses into OPML? But I don’t think that mark-up carries over into a feed of posts
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Zegnat
([kevinmarks] would know better)
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Loqi
XOXO 1.0: Extensible Open XHTML Outlines
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chrisaldrich
GWG and I were chatting earlier and it seemed simpler to create follow posts that could then be later parsed (as a feed) into an OPML file.
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chrisaldrich
I'm happy to hear other options/ideas as well.
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chrisaldrich
we also discussed the idea of u- and p-follow-of, which are only documented on the /follow page to my knowledge.
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Zegnat
Wait? p-?
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Zegnat
goes to check /follow
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chrisaldrich
I think GWG uses p- forms on many of the microformats within Post Kinds Plugin, though there are some that are u-. I'd defer to your better judgement Zegnat though.
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Zegnat
mf2 prefixes are only important for where in the HTML the parser is looking for the property value. So which one you use should depend on your markup, not on the property.
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Zegnat
You are probably going to want to say “I followed the feed/person at URL”, and mark that up with <A HREF> in your HTML. If you want a parser to pick up what is inside the HREF attribute, you use the u- prefix.
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chrisaldrich
That's what I suspected, though I know GWG is tweaking Post Kinds these past few weeks and over the next few days. I'll let him make the ultimate decision and likely follow along, but thought I'd experiment a bit until then.
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[kevinmarks]
The original Technorati code did opml/xoxo transformation. I think both of them are potentially overkill for a follow list, and opml is particularly badly designed as everything is attributes.
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chrisaldrich
Overkill is certainly an issue... we all need a better indieweb way of following/subscribing. Perhaps microsub will fix all of our problems?
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chrisaldrich
how is it 4am?! Goodnight indiewebz.
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sknebel
good night chrisaldrich!
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Loqi
see you in the morning!
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Zegnat
Loqi, +v me!
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@Atrioc
-> Facebook wants fewer "meme" images, changes algorithm to favor video. -> Meme pages turn images into long static videos. -> Facebook filters out static video as spam. -> Meme pages put floating triangles over everything to cheat the filter. THIS IS THE GREAT WAR OF OUR AGE https://twitter.com/Atrioc/status/964229260087980032/video/1
(twitter.com/_/status/964229260087980032)
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Zegnat
I know a perfect solution for Facebook. How about they just show me everything from the people and pages I follow and leave it at that?
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@francesbell
@bonstewart 2/ #engagemooc ... that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it. I have been writing and thinking about #resistance as a digital/critical literacy and am encouraged by actions such as https://personaldata.io/ https://ourdataourselves.tacticaltech.org/ https://indieweb.org/POSSE https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/02/how-to-build-your-own-private-smart-home-with-a-raspberry-pi-and-mozillas-things-gateway/
(twitter.com/_/status/964881787120910340)
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@mapkyca
Pushed a bunch of @withknown changes: translation hooks for templates, PHP 7.2 compatibility, refresh/remove option for link previews, a couple of bug fixes, and Gettext support. #indieweb #known
(twitter.com/_/status/964919106372882433)
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Loqi
mapkyca has 8 karma in this channel (23 overall)
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[cleverdevil]
He’s been doing really great work on Known. It’s very much appreciated!
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aaronpk
snarfed++ wow granary's twitter conversion thingy is great!
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Loqi
snarfed has 296 karma in this channel (346 overall)
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aaronpk
with the new fillable form fields for searches!
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snarfed
aww thanks aaronpk? you mean the UI on https://granary.io/ ?
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aaronpk
I made a twitter search and added it to aperture and it looks great!
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Loqi
😃
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snarfed
lots more to add, eg usernames and lists. glad you like search!
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aaronpk
I was gonna go integrate my own search into aperture but then figured i'd give this a shot and it worked very well
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[cleverdevil]
That sounds great.
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[cleverdevil]
Once there is support for Twitter usernames and lists, I think it'd make a great addition to the Together UI.
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[cleverdevil]
Though, I suppose I could already add my entire Twitter timeline through granary.io.
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aaronpk
why that? the atom feed will be much lower resolution
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snarfed
twitter starts noticing an API app once it gets big enough, and for twitter-atom at least, it didn't like it and shut it down
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snarfed
hence you now have to make your own app
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snarfed
it's maybe less obvious that they'd dislike granary, but who knows
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aaronpk
oh because granary shares the api keys? couldn't you make a way to provide new api keys for granary?
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aaronpk
I just like that the html+microformats output of granary includes all the stuff like in-reply-to
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snarfed
understood!
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aaronpk
which atom doesn't have the ability to support
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[cleverdevil]
Hmm, when I try to add the html+mf output from granary in Aperture it says "No feeds found" at the URL.
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snarfed
i think in-reply-to actually in the atom output via salmon/ostatus links, but probably nothing supports those :P
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aaronpk
hm I tried via the Together UI
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aaronpk
let me try again
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[cleverdevil]
Yeah, it works from Together.
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aaronpk
hm worked fine for me in aperture too
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aaronpk
just tried another search
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Loqi
[Ryan Barrett] twitter-atom is back!
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[cleverdevil]
Hah, when I try to load my Twitter feed in Together the whole screen goes blank.
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aaronpk
react error
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grantcodes
Hmm I think I am assuming existance of a property that doesn't exist
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[cleverdevil]
// a wild grant appears //
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aaronpk
I am surprised it took this long to occur, since aperture should be providing pretty normalized data to it
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grantcodes
It'll be the same error you got with the instagram feed
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grantcodes
If either of you are able to run it locally in dev more you should get the full error
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aaronpk
I guess I should probably figure out how to do that at some point
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grantcodes
I don't think it should be too hard now, I think I fixed issues with running locally vs in production
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aaronpk
moves to #indieweb-dev
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tantek
GWG, oh? (re: channeling) missed that
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chrisaldrich
GWG++ for the flexibility and extensibility of /Post_Kinds_Plugin http://boffosocko.com/kind/chicken/
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Loqi
gwg has 226 karma in this channel (309 overall)
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chrisaldrich
tantek: he had a /WWTD moment
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KartikPrabhu
don't we all
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chrisaldrich
I just realized that by creating a /chicken post the way I did, I now have a chicken feed. I'll wait until I have more to propose the experimental microformat c-feed.
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tantek
chrisaldrich: sounds like you decided to chicken scratch an itch
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GWG
tantek, I was doing that methodology you are expert at in trying to get to the bottom of chrisaldrich's need.
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GWG
In another brainstorming attempt, I have been lying here for over an hour thinking about how to build flexibly
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GWG
I think I figured out how to be opinionated in Post Kinds
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tantek
hmm, I haven't checked my FB notifications in over a month
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tantek
I think that's a new personal record
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tantek
the red number keeps floating between ~65-80
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tantek
I think that only counts the past (rolling) two weeks worth of notifications?
vivus, gRegorLove, [jeremycherfas], barpthewire, snarfed, Kongaloosh, AngeloGladding, tantek, wolftune, [tantek], [miklb], KartikPrabhu and [kevinmarks] joined the channel; leg left the channel
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[kevinmarks]
Talking of siloed notifications, I picked up te iPad for the first time in a week, and found an imessage conversation that I would have thought would be an SMS one
KapiX joined the channel
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@schmarty
Your ~ 10min update on the #IndieWeb community! This Week in the IndieWeb audio edition for February 10th - 16th, 2018. https://martymcgui.re/2018/02/17/181444/
(twitter.com/_/status/965002959720452097)
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@schmarty
This episode marks a full year that I've been creating weekly audio summaries of the @indiewebcamp newsletter! Thank you for listening! I'd love any feedback that you have. Also, if you'd take a moment to leave a rating and a review wherever you get your podcasts, that'd be 💯! https://twitter.com/schmarty/status/965002959720452097
(twitter.com/_/status/965003895356510210)
tantek joined the channel
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Marcus Povey on Twitter: "Pushed a bunch of @withknown changes: translation hooks for templates, PHP 7.2 compatibility, refresh/remove option for link previews, a couple of bug fixes, and Gettext support. #indieweb #known"" by Jonathan LaCour on 2018-02-17 https://twitter.com/mapkyca/status/964919106372882433
[cleverdevil] and wolftune joined the channel
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[miklb]
who posted what where?
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tantek
mapkyca++
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Loqi
mapkyca has 9 karma in this channel (24 overall)
wolftune joined the channel