#indieweb 2018-03-06

2018-03-06 UTC
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[kevinmarks]
Right. Or add a proxy link too.
eli_oat, matigo, tantek, [kevinmarks], friedcell, [snarfed], electronicmaji, snarfed, [asuh] and [miklb] joined the channel; friedcell left the channel
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@AKrCosplay
Instagrams random deletion of large accounts is unnerving. I know that sounds ridiculous, but people have spent years building and cultivating their following and for some it’s their business and livelihood that’s at stake. So to lose that overnight is terrifying.
(twtr.io/1bHh7o6aQwY)
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aaronpk
I still open IRC all the time to see what's going on in chat but ever since I moved a bunch of stuff to Aperture it's been really quiet in my IRC land
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: maybe you can POSSE to IRC ;)
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tantek
good evening #indieweb
tantek, [cleverdevil], [pfefferle], [chrisaldrich], snarfed, barpthewire and nitot joined the channel
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jjuran
What is .well-known?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for ".well-known" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say ".well-known is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[pfefferle]
good evening tantek
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sl007
hello.
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@petermolnar
@AKrCosplay Run your own website and constantly mirror everything there, so you won't lose content. Get your users to sign up for a newsletter, so in case of emergency you can let them know, what happened. Ideas and details: https://indieweb.org/why and https://ownyourgram.com/
(twtr.io/1bLnzgMuF6h)
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jeremycherfas
Good morning IndieWeb
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sknebel
good morning jeremycherfas!
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sl007
https://get.fm/emoji/ - emoji domains :((
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@hirojin
idea for trends on social media sites ♯topic [?] [x] [?] what is this? why is it trending?? [x] please make it go away
(twtr.io/1Ye5iJs64NR)
jihaisse_, adactio, friedcell, swentel, matigo, eli_oat, [kevinmarks] and [alexander] joined the channel
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[alexander]
https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T03QR2B2T-F9K4WMSM9/image.png?pub_secret=79710c79dc&name=image.png Trying to setup bridgy with the indieweb collections of plugins to wordpress, but I really don't get how to remove my gravatar photo that is added to the bridgys posts
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[alexander]
Im running independent publisher theme
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aaronpk
don't tempt me KartikPrabhu ;-)
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aaronpk
actually I had POSSE to IRC working for a while
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@jaboukie
me talking to a friend: like yes, intimacy is great, but am i really ready for a full relationship right now? instagram ad: Do you feel like yes, intimacy is great, but am i really ready for a full relationship right now? If so, you should shop at this online thrift store
(twtr.io/1bJLijhdbwY)
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@benwerd
I really wanted to comment on this @nickgrossman post (we use AirTable + Zapier at @mattervc and it’s magical) but Disqus is down. I wish every blogging platform supported #indieweb. https://www.nickgrossman.is/2018/running-the-usv-analyst-application-process-using-ziggeo-formassembly-and-airtable/
(twtr.io/1bMJDwcj9Xj)
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Loqi
[duprat] tircd: An ircd proxy to the twitter API
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aaronpk
i'm pretty sure I used that about 8 years ago
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skippy
about the last time i fiddled with it, too!
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Hello! Why should we use Known instead of WordPress for indieweb? It looks like a Hard choice!" by Josemar Müller Lohn on 2018-03-06 https://lo.hn/2018/hello-why-should-we-use-known-instead-of-wordpress-for
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@swentel
So if you now reply on Twitter, it will create a comment on that node on my site (moderated though, I know you all like spamming!) #indieweb #drupal (https://realize.be/notes/1225)
(twtr.io/1bMS_3oHbhf)
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skippy
who is using the SemPress theme for WordPress? Curious to see examples of leveraging all the functionality it provides.
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skippy
the age old dilemna of overkill for my needs, but gives me most of what I want wihtout having to start from scratch.
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[jeremycherfas]
I have a child of Zenpress but have not yet enabled much indieweb
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KartikPrabhu
do themes do the indiewebbing or plugins?
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KartikPrabhu
wordpress is so confusing
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skippy
wordpress is the kitchen sink.
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skippy
i like the look of sempress-lite, too. but sempress still requires that i dig in to make changes to display what *I* want.
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[jeremycherfas]
Both. That’s a good part of the difficulty right there
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skippy
the plugins allow some level of indieweb regardless of theme. themes are a little harder to make generic enough for casual indieweb adoption, I think.
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skippy
creating a wordpress theme can be overwhelming. indieweb can be overwhelming. adding the two seems insurmountable to casual tinkerer me.
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KartikPrabhu
skippy: I am sure GWG can guide you through it but he's not around now
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skippy
i've been pestering miklb a bit, too.
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[miklb]
thank you skippy for putting into words what I’d like to solve with the theme starter I’ve been thinking through. “creating a wordpress theme can be overwhelming. indieweb can be overwhelming”
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[miklb]
need to stop thinking and start committing some code
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GWG
I am at lunch for the next 10 minutes
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GWG
I am usually on at night
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GWG
I teach a class during the day
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GWG
We need to recruit more theme developers
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skippy
i'd be willing to help a bit. rather than an uber theme that shows off all the things, smaller themes that show off individual bits, with a guide on how to integrate the pieces one needs into something for themselves.
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skippy
i dont need everything that sempress supports, for example. at leats, not now.
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GWG
skippy, anything I can help with tell me.
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skippy
GWG I'd benefit from a recipe. Start with this simple thing. Then add this next thing. what classes should i apply to my posts in the loop output, for example.
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[miklb]
the entire Indieweb community would benefit from better documentation of mf2
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skippy
the styles in sempress are daunting.
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[miklb]
with working examples of common markup
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sknebel
[miklb]: happy to help fill gaps where you see them, but I fear I'll need prompts to do so
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[miklb]
I know when I’ve gone looking for a clean example of markup for a like, or repost, or bookmark I couldn’t find much.
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[miklb]
just examples.
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[miklb]
what is a like
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[miklb]
what is like
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sknebel
What is like?
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sknebel
ah, that might be blacklisted to avoid "what is like ..." triggering it? https://indieweb.org/like
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[miklb]
that page has nice markup examples
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[miklb]
but even then, it seems like with mf2 it can be either/or in how a post is marked up.
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[tantek]
[miklb] very reasonable request
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[tantek]
When you come across a post type like repost or bookmark that lacks sufficient examples, could you add something like (more mf2 examples needed!) to its “How to markup” or “How to publish” section?
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skippy
here's an example of my stuggle. https://indieweb.org/Category:building-blocks has an h-entry link under "Posts". Click that nd I get a big wall of text on Why. How is after the fold on my display.
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skippy
but that h-entry page doesnt actually show me how to use it. i click through to "post" and get more Why above the fold.
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skippy
i have to go off the indieweb wiki to http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry to see an actual example of how to use an h-entry on a post.
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] h-entry is a simple, open format for episodic or datestamped content on the web. h-entry is often used with content intended to be syndicated, e.g. blog posts. h-entry is one of several open microformat standards suitable for embedding data in HTML. ...
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[kevinmarks]
Skippy, you might find indiewebify.me helpful for that
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skippy
and nothing on the microformats site even suggests anything about this comment on the indieweb wik: "On post permalink pages the h-entry should be the top-level microformat (not nested under anything). "
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[kevinmarks]
It walks through h-card and h-entry
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skippy
ive used that before [kevinmarks]. it is useful, but also consider the cognitive load of trying to do something, and being bounced between three or four links across different sites to figure this out.
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[tantek]
skippy, good point. You should it have to click around like that. That bugs me too
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[tantek]
should *not have to
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[tantek]
or at least it should be one click away, not a maze of clicks :)
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skippy
i fully admit my own expectations may be misaligned. I rather assume that indieweb.org is the place to go for info on how to. Maybe it's not the canonical source of such information, but more advocacy and background.
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[tantek]
Eg h-entry could link to /note for a simple example
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[tantek]
Your expectations are reasonable
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skippy
"The Complete Beginner's Guide to Indiweb, with examples, for the casual participant" is what I want. First, add this simple <meta> link to the <head> of your theme. then add this <class> to each post you make.... Then ...
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skippy
Iterative additions on a foundation would help me a lot.
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skippy
I'm not going to be using replies or RSVPs or check-ins immediately. so that's all noise to me right now.
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[kevinmarks]
That is close to what indiewebify.me does. Maybe we should review the order it suggests things
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skippy
ok. let's explore this. I activated the SemPress-Lite theme, but dont currently have the IndieWeb WP plugins enabled. https://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fskippy.is%2F tells me to add my email. it doesnt actually tell me where the h-card is.
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skippy
looking at the HTML that WP generates, I see this:
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skippy
<span class="author p-author vcard hcard h-card"
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skippy
so i guess that's the h-card.
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skippy
obviously indiewebify.me can't provide specific implementation guidance for every possible CMS or hand-rolled site on the web.
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skippy
but for people -- especially newbies -- working with WP, this is awkward because I dont know where to modify the theme to accomplish this. And modifying an extant theme is a non-trivial task.
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skippy
do note that I'm not complaining, really. Just observing out loud. If I can help make improvements, I'd like to do so.
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sknebel
So that probably should be referenced from the template docs
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sknebel
Or where would you look for guidance on this?
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[tantek]
Skippy, adding Wordpress to he mix makes it so much harder because there are literally too many places to look that you might need to change something
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[tantek]
It’s so much harder than just a “plain” html page from a static site generator etc that I’d say your best bet is to start asking these questions in #indieweb-wordpress
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[tantek]
We probably literally need a Wordpress-specific version of indiewebify me for this because the advice on where to look and what to install is so specific to Wordpress
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[tantek]
Re: the complete beginners guide, see tutorials
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[tantek]
Why are tutorials
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[tantek]
What are tutorials
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chrisaldrich
skippy, some WordPress themes like SemPress will add appropriate (but usually minimal) h-cards to pages, particularly for authorship.
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skippy
to make sure i understand what indiewebify is telling me: there should be exactly one h-card on my home page; and each individual post should have an h-entry? Is that correct?
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Part of the point and beauty of the IndieWeb movement is that you can choose any platform or set up you choose! There are far" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-03-06 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2018/part-of-the-point-and-beauty-of-the-indieweb-movement
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[tantek]
Skippy at a minimum yes. Those are foundations, not limitations
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[tantek]
On another subject, does anyone post intentions or desires to see a particular movie, read a particular book etc.?
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[tantek]
I feel like [chrisaldrich] might
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[tantek]
I keep a list of movies to see, but I often forget why I added to it, or when, and am thinking that if I had a post for each of those, then the list could be an aggregation of them, minus all the /watch /read posts
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[eddie]
I’ve posted “wanted to (watch/read/etc)” posts
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chrisaldrich
I have wishes http://boffosocko.com/kind/wish/ other related intentions to read/see something I do as bookmarks
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[tantek]
They are kind of like experience wishes yes, rather than stuff wishes
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chrisaldrich
I'll also add tags to some of those bookmarks to be able to more easily search for subcategories.
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[tantek]
Bookmark seems too minimal for this as the bookmark does not itself capture the intention of why it was bookmarked
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Loqi
[Eddie Hinkle] 🔖 Want to read: OAuth 2.0 Simplified by Aaron Parecki https://eddiehinkle.com/media/853fca324c4c8bdc22eebded6b36e412.jpeg
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Loqi
[Eddie Hinkle] 📺 💭 Looking forward to Gotham Season 3 Episode 15: They are teasing this episode as the beginning of Bruce’s journey to become Batman… I’ve been anticipating that transition for awhile now.
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[tantek]
The use case for a special post for this is exactly the aggregated list I spoke of
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chrisaldrich
sounds like bookmark+collection a bit to me
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[eddie]
I believe gRegorLove also has “want to read” posts
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[tantek]
(And that sounds like a good reason to watch Gotham 🤣)
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[tantek]
[chrisaldrich] except the collection is dynamic, not a post
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chrisaldrich
typically once I've read a particular book, I'll remove the "want to read" tag, so in some sense it is dynamic without requiring a lot of additional build out.
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[tantek]
Maybe wish/want is the post type? And aggregate by tag for different thing / experience categories like read / watch / visit / or whatever for stuff
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[eddie]
I think the challenge is how do you know when the wish/want is granted?
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[eddie]
That’s one of my challenges with replacing Goodreads with my site (2018 goal)
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[tantek]
[chrisaldrich] I’m saying I’d rather the collection be automatically built from want minus done posts
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[tantek]
Eddie, perhaps the done / acquired post becomes a reply to the wish / want post?
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[eddie]
That’s interesting
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chrisaldrich
The Post Kinds Plugin actually defines wishes as "a post indicating a desire/wish" so it's meant to be a bit broader than just giftlists, etc.
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[tantek]
(Done meaning the class of posts like /read /watch etc)
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[tantek]
Is there a spectrum of need / want / wish? ( / dream ?)
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[eddie]
I could see that working
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gRegorLove
I was thinking the other day about wishlists. I was thinking I could add tag "wishlist" to my want-to-* posts and then the tag page would be the up-to-date list.
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[tantek]
One key thing that I’d want to capture is the why behind the wish / want
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[tantek]
Eg recommended by a friend (name)
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Loqi
[indienews] New post: "Re-thinking the Homepage" https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/03/06/6/article/
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chrisaldrich
I have considered doing a custom archive template to better display my want-to-* posts since the tag/want-to-* isn't always as useful (to me)
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[tantek]
Or: read before watching the movie
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gRegorLove
I think I've included a "via" or "h/t" on some of my want-to-reads
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[tantek]
“Better display” usually means an opportunity for a new post type (not always)
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[eddie]
In my “wish” posts since they have all been media related, I’ve used my content to explain why, and the media info is contained in extra attributes
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Loqi
[Chris Aldrich] 🔖 The Future Is History: How Totalitarianism Reclaimed Russia by Masha Gessen
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[tantek]
Gregorlove similar but different. I see via or ht as who you heard from, but not necessary a personal recommendation
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[tantek]
*necessarily
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gRegorLove
Sure. It could be anything in the want-to-* content. I don't mark it up with specific mf2
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gRegorLove
searches for an example
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chrisaldrich
you could bookmark (or "other post" the thing and add the recommendation to the note.
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[tantek]
Never mind Mark up yet. Lol autocorrect
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[tantek]
More use cases for explicit “want experience” posts:
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[tantek]
Which of the movies / tv I want to watch on Netflix or otherwise available to easily view?
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[tantek]
Which of the books I want to read are available at my local library?
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gRegorLove
Here's an example of tracking where I heard of the book, in the want-to-* https://gregorlove.com/2017/04/want-to-read-white-allies/
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Loqi
[gRegor Morrill] Want to read: White Allies in the Struggle for Racial Justice via http://www.theliturgists.com/podcast/2017/3/21/advocacy
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gRegorLove
I think I've used "via" more recently, but did some with "h/t" https://gregorlove.com/2016/04/want-to-read-a-kim/
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Loqi
[gRegor Morrill] Want to read: A Kim Jong-Il Production: The Extraordinary True Story of a Kidnapped Filmmaker, His Star Actress, and a Young Dictator's Rise to Power h/t This American Life episode 556: “Same Bed, Different Dreams”
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gRegorLove
Most of the ones I've added in 2017 onward haven't included either though
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gRegorLove
Goodreads has a "Who recommended it to me" field, which can be a name (autolink if they're a Goodreads friend), or just text. I include the podcast name + episode for those.
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chrisaldrich
Tantek, your use case almost sounds more like a to do list which could have tags for specific types of read, watch, listen etc.
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[tantek]
No [chrisaldrich] to do lists are work
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[tantek]
Very different use case
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[tantek]
Most (all?) wants are optional, not required
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chrisaldrich
I keep to do lists for personal things like that... helps prevent the dread of "just work" from keeping me look at them.
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[tantek]
Turning your desires into work is a sure way to suck all the joy out of them
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chrisaldrich
But the physical structures of how those lists work isn't much different.
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chrisaldrich
Though you might like to sort them by some type of ranking the way Netflix does for your want to watch list
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chrisaldrich
and not sort by date the way most websites/blogs do.
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chrisaldrich
I do maintain a bit of back end metadata that lets me sort my want-to-* bookmarks by various criteria. It's just not public facing.
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[tantek]
“Physical structures not much different” NO. That’s dangerously close to plumbing centric design or worse implementation that limits the design and UX
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[tantek]
The emotional design is totally different
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[tantek]
Btw I find Netflix’s list an absolute failure
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[tantek]
If you’re looking for examples of bad design
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[tantek]
[chrisaldrich] do you distinguish want-to and like-to? Or need-to?
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chrisaldrich
for those types of watch/read lists I don't typically. if it's a need to, it goes onto a work to do list somewhere else.
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chrisaldrich
some of my goodreads to read lists had become so long that I did subcategorize them a bit
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chrisaldrich
I've tried not to repeat some of this type of subcategorization on my own site by using better metadata
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chrisaldrich
in part because my site gives me more control than Goodreads does.
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gRegorLove
chrisaldrich, Yeah, I need to do something with my goodreads lists. 458 on my to-read now, haha
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Loqi
nice
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[tantek]
Does goodreads show you leaderboard of books that your friends want to read?
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[tantek]
Or better, your own to read list sorted by # of friends that want to also read them?
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chrisaldrich
Both of those would be interesting to have, but I'm not aware that it has either.
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[tantek]
Wow we could build the indieweb version
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chrisaldrich
It will let you compare your list of books to a friends to show you the amount of overlap.
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[tantek]
But not all your friends?
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[tantek]
[chrisaldrich] how do you distinguish books you want to just read vs acquire (own) and read?
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chrisaldrich
nope, not for all your friends.
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gRegorLove
I forget the name schmarty mentioned at IWC Baltimore, but he said (joked) something about indiebookclub dot biz
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chrisaldrich
I do have a "to-get" list for potential acquisitions, but I find in practice that I don't use it often.
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gRegorLove
Not aware of leaderboards, but goodreads does let you compare your bookshelves to individual friends, and when you look at your shelved copy of a book, it shows which friends have it on their shelves / their reviews
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chrisaldrich
I've been trying to acquire fewer physical books in the last 5 years.
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gRegorLove
So I can see how many books I have in common with chrisaldrich, how many I have that he doesn't, vice versa, and drill down to the actual books.
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chrisaldrich
I do keep a lot of metadata in my desktop version of Calibre about books I own, and most of the data is synced with GoodReads.
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chrisaldrich
Eventually I'll set something up to mirror all the data on my own website.
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[tantek]
[chrisaldrich] I hear you. I have acquired too many to-read books as it is :)
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gRegorLove
"Chris’s books: 2282 (2199 not in common)" dang, chrisaldrich! :)
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chrisaldrich
There is a valuable concept known as the anti-library that you should know about then tantek.
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[tantek]
I’d like to also publish the subset of my books that I’m ok lending, and of those the subset that I’m ok infinite lending
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[tantek]
More like decentralized library :)
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[tantek]
Anti-library sounds a bit dark, like what happened to Alexandria
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chrisaldrich
I used to keep closer track of stuff like that when I started my Little Free Library, but the work of doing it was too high a bar eventually.
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[eddie]
tantek: I don’t track what books to purchase either. I have a Goodreads list “Next books” which is typically the next 4 books I plan to read. Generally when I promote books to that list I will buy them. I buy almost all books on Kindle, so it’s quick and easy
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chrisaldrich
If I had the space and the means, I'd want a collection like my friend Dick Macksey's, but it'd be too much to put on my personal site. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rvXUHI331k
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[eddie]
The idea is that I don’t generally buy a book (or ebook) until I am going to read it in the next month or so.
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chrisaldrich
When possible, I've defaulted to getting e-books from local libraries, which also makes my habit less expensive.
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[tantek]
Eddie that’s sounds like a good approach. At this point I don’t buy a book unless I can honestly say it’s more important for me to read it before any of the other books I already have (and haven’t read yet)
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[eddie]
I do need to try library based e-booking
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[tantek]
I do like the idea of keeping / maintaining a curated personal library that I can lend from as personal recommendations.
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[eddie]
Haven’t ever done that yet
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[eddie]
Yeah, that’s nice
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[tantek]
The only e-books I have are a handful of Voyager Expanded Books from the 1990s
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[tantek]
(Takes a photo)
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[kevinmarks]
Do you have the ones that I worked on?
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[kevinmarks]
I donated 2 car loads of books and CDs to the Internet Archive when I left california
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[tantek]
(Uploading)
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chrisaldrich
tantek, do you still have a machine to view those books?
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[tantek]
Yes. Haven’t plugged it in in a while but I may do so. I’ve been procrastinating converting them (they’re built in HyperCard) to another format that’s even remotely as featured (see UI screenshot in first photo)
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[tantek]
Lastly, in addition to such want-to posts being completed with done ( /read or /watch etc) posts, I’d also want a way to capture the alternative, something like a nevermind post. Or other form of letting go of a want
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[tantek]
Wondering if anyone has posted anything like that
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[tantek]
Letting go of a former want
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[tantek]
It’s not just a delete because there’s usually a good reason for it, that may be worth capturing. Perhaps even just capturing that reason provides sense of completion or closure to a former want
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@dysalexi
@palace Att jag dras mer och mer till Indieweb efter jag förstått storheten i POSSE https://indieweb.org/POSSE
(twtr.io/1bMrm8TfkSQ)
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aaronpk
wow, "type in your own margin notes"!
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[tantek]
[chrisaldrich] do you remove books from your to-read list(s) without reading them, and if so do you make note of why? (Perhaps so you won’t bother to re-add them later?)
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[tantek]
Aaronpk yeah! Amazing!
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[tantek]
Technology over 25 y.o. that we still don’t have replicated in an easy to use way
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chrisaldrich
yes I remove them occasionally or even remove them with a tag of "finish later" and a short note about why.
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[tantek]
Are those then “do not want” posts? ;)
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chrisaldrich
I did think a bit about anti-acquisition posts last week...
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[tantek]
Donation?
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[tantek]
What is a want?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "want" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "want is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek]
^^^ [chrisaldrich] want to add that one since it sounds like you have a lot of experience and examples?
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[tantek]
(New post type)
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[tantek]
And then we can incorporate some of the above discussion in a more structured and iteratively expandable way
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chrisaldrich
Heading out to a meeting now, but if you've got a stub, I'll add to it later tonigh.
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[miklb]
hands Loqi a stub
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[tantek]
want is a rare [[post]] type on the indieweb, where the author posts something ([[acquistion]]) or experience (book to [[read]], movie to [[watch]], [[venue]] to [[checkin]]) they want get or do.
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[tantek]
[chrisaldrich] there you go.
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[tantek]
Eddie, gregorlove add your examples!
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[tantek]
What is a wish
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Loqi
A wish is a post indicating an acquisition or purchase either you wish to make or which you hope someone might purchase on your behalf for a birthday, anniversary, baby shower, wedding, or other event https://indieweb.org/wish
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[tantek]
yeah that’s different enough, explicitly allowing for others to get / do it for you
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[tantek]
want << wish
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Loqi
ok, I added "[[wish]]" to a brand new "See Also" section of /want
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[tantek]
wish << want
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Loqi
ok, I added "[[want]]" to the "See Also" section of /wish
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[tantek]
Though I could see some overlap
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gRegorLove
I put stuff on my to-read list pretty liberally. Most are not things I want as a gift, just something I'll check out of the library.
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[tantek]
You’re also wanting the experience l, not the acquisition
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Ben Werdmuller on Twitter: "I really wanted to comment on this @nickgrossman post (we use AirTable + Zapier at @mattervc and it’s magical) but Disqus is down. I wish every blogging platform supported #indieweb. https://t.co/PnODyHTmzc"" by Jonathan LaCour on 2018-03-06 https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/971037048642658304
electronicmaji, tantek and qu4ku joined the channel
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@CodebarBrighton
Didn’t get enough done at codebar? Need some motivation? Never fear, Homebrew website club saves the day! https://twitter.com/adactio/status/970727267352576000
(twtr.io/1bN2u3rbdpb)
[cleverdevil] and [kevinmarks] joined the channel