#indieweb 2018-03-20

2018-03-20 UTC
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tantek not technically, maybe abstractly
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GWG It has an order to it.
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GWG I published one
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GWG https://david.shanske.com/series/indiewebpress/
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tantek I thought indiewebpress was a website
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GWG Although considering my tendency to not finish things, it ended up very collection like.
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GWG tantek, I think having a concept of a Series is a valid one. I have another I need to mark up as such and I think I may introduce the similar concept of collections
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GWG I need to develop the definition and implementation
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GWG Someone else did a website by that name. For me, it is a series of articles
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tantek GWG, yes I posted a series like that in 2015, daily journaling of my time at sea on a cruise
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tantek only got to part 5 of 8
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tantek I agree a series makes sense conceptually
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tantek but I think it is more complex than either of our two examples
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chrisaldrich Newspapers and Magazines will often do series of articles like these if you need additional examples.
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GWG I need to figure out what makes it unique
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tantek GWG, or rather, what makes it explicitly a 'series'
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tantek apparently only 4 of 8. the 5th one I never finished writing
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tantek http://tantek.com/2015/227/b1/alaska-cruise-log-skagway
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] Alaska Cruise Log Day 4: Skagway
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snarfed sounds like the ordering is the key difference. series posts are intended to be consumed in an author-defined order. collections may be consumed in any order. (?)
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tantek author(s) e.g. 24ways.org
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tantek snarfed - also 24ways.org is an example of not necessarily needing to be consumed in order
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[snarfed] so it's...a collection? :P
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tantek snarfed, is an advent calendar a collection or a series?
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Dear IndieWeb, it may be time to start considering the user, not just the technical spec., posted March 18, 2018" by Jonathan LaCour on 2018-03-19 https://eli.li/entry.php?id=20180318015703
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[snarfed] got me
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GWG Is a series an ordered collection?
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KartikPrabhu are collections unordered?
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KartikPrabhu has been doing a lot of ordering today!
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GWG They are not required to be
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tantek these discussions are academic (philosophical, handwavy, nearly useless) until you share examples to talk about
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tantek aside: great post by benwerd https://words.werd.io/personality-tests-and-the-downfall-of-democracy-9a4fe2e835e5
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tantek nevermind the comments. seems like even /Medium has succumbed to crap comments
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[kevinmarks] There is a distinction between things that are part of a collection and things that should be read/listened to/watched in order.
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GWG tantek: We both have the example of a trip report in parts
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GWG That is one of my existing uses
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KartikPrabhu is anything consuming these "series" different from a "collection"
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GWG Not yet. But I want to start posting more serial content.
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tantek we have a bunch of existing examples I suggest reviewing / analyzing KartikPrabhu
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tantek e.g. what is 100days
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[kevinmarks] Apple made this distinction for podcasts: episodic vs serial http://podcasts.apple.com/resources/spec/ApplePodcastsSpecUpdatesiOS11.pdf
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tantek what is 100 days
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "100 days" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "100 days is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek wat
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tantek what is 100daysofindieweb
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Loqi 100DaysOfIndieWeb is a challenge to ship something IndieWeb-related every day for 100 days https://indieweb.org/100DaysOfIndieWeb
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tantek 100 days is /100DaysOfIndieWeb
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Loqi ok
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[kevinmarks] 100 days is not usually serial in that sense
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tantek in what sense?
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[kevinmarks] Expected to be read in sequence - depending on previous episodes
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[miklb] a music record is a collection of songs (generally) meant to be listened in order.
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tantek [miklb]: well the good ones are anyway
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[kevinmarks] Yes and no. An album has a sequence, but it isn't serial like an opera.
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tantek [kevinmarks]: I don't think I agree. whether created in sequence or expected to be read in sequence, if there is something seguential about the intent of the set, I think they can be considered series
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tantek [kevinmarks]: except an opera album :P
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[kevinmarks] Maybe there is a third distinction of narrative
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[kevinmarks] Collection them sequence then narrative
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tantek [kevinmarks]: also some of the 100days series that people posted were at least semi-ordered
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tantek like you had to read some of the earlier posts (in the series) for some of the latter posts to make sense
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[kevinmarks] Maybe the distinction is spoilers
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[kevinmarks] You don't always need to experience a series in order, but you get more when you do, whereas with a narrative, you will be thrown off because you are expected to know what happened earlier
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[kevinmarks] Also, so indieweb https://twitter.com/evgenymorozov/status/975635952419966978?s=19
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@evgenymorozov To think that the problem in this whole debacle is Facebook’s business model is to think that subscription fees - the only non-advertising alternative -would be better. The real problem here is the *absence* of non-corporate, alternative infrastructures for organizing our lives. (twitter.com/_/status/975635952419966978)
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GWG Okay...so I have a series. My 2015 Trip Report https://david.shanske.com/series/israel-2015/
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Following much of the recent Facebook privacy and data scandal over the past several days, 1–4 today I deleted 169 of 184 apps which had access to all or parts of my Facebook data. Often many of them also had access to data by proxy of my family, friends, and acquaintances. Of those apps still remaining, … Continue reading """ by Chris Aldrich on 2018-03-20 http://boffosocko.com/2018/03/19/facebook-app-purge/
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[kevinmarks] https://mashable.com/2018/03/19/protect-yourself-and-your-friends-from-facebook/#jbVntNVR8ZqP
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tantek wow 169 apps goodness
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chrisaldrich When you have accounts on every service out there...
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chrisaldrich I was expecting it to be over the 192 rel-mes I have on one page, but I suppose I've purged apps before....
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[kevinmarks] 10 years ago http://epeus.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/how-not-to-be-viral.html “At the Facebook developer Garage last week, I heard a developer say: when I hear 'viral' applied to software I replace it with 'cancerous' to clarify.”
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Loqi [superfeedr] "10 years ago: http://epeus.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/how-not-to-be-viral.html “At the Facebook ..." by Kevin Marks on 2018-03-20 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2018/10-years-ago-200806how-not-to-be-viralhtml-at-the-facebook
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@kevinmarks 10 years ago: http://epeus.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/how-not-to-be-viral.html “At the Facebook developer Garage last week, I heard a developer say: when I hear 'viral' applied to software I replace it with 'cancerous' to clarify.” Sadly, that developer left Facebook. #Indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/975914993865469952)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Wait... What?! There's a reading plugin for @WithKnown? It appears to be based on Jonathan LaCour's Food plugin, but portends some interesting new "read" post" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-03-19 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2018/wait-what-theres-a-reading-plugin-for-withknown-it-appears
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[kevinmarks] Art about silos https://erdegrey.com/#/screen-studies/
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tantek I'm wondering if this is an area where indieweb sites can do better than silos: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-finally-know-for-sure-that-lies-spread-faster-than-the-truth-this-might-be-why/2018/03/14/92ab1aae-27a6-11e8-bc72-077aa4dab9ef_story.html
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tantek there's a lot to unpack in the article regarding silos / social media and how some of this may apply to good use of indieweb as well: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/07/us/parkland-students-social-media.html
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aaronpk I need some sort of mechanism to keep track of the locations of all my friends, and when I post a travel plan in the same city as someone, it should let me know that I should set up a coffee/beer/lunch date with them
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tantek what was Dopplr
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Loqi Dopplr was a silo (at dopplr.com) for sharing future travel plans https://indieweb.org/Dopplr
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tantek :P
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aaronpk pretty much
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Loqi [superfeedr] "🎧 Listened to “An Indieweb Podcast Episode 0” by David Shanske and Chris Aldrich.I..." by Marty McGuire on 2018-03-19
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tantek good evening #indieweb
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb ;-)
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@DonaldBMcIntosh The penny is starting to drop when it comes to Facebook's singular objective - profit from personal data. #indieweb https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/20/digital-oligarchs-rewire-web-facebook-scandal (twitter.com/_/status/976032310465359872)
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Zegnat Facebook << https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/how-change-your-facebook-settings-opt-out-platform-api-sharing
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/how-change-your-facebook-settings-opt-out-platform-api-sharing" to the "See Also" section of /Facebook
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb. Busy night here last night ...
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@mrkrndvs 🎧 An Indieweb Podcast Episode 0 https://collect.readwriterespond.com/indieweb-podcast-000/ (twitter.com/_/status/976061549264691200)
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jeremycherfas !tell mrkndvs The image for your audio player is broken, so there's no clue on your site what it is.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel jeremycherfas: missing the second "r" in the user nam
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sknebel e
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jeremycherfas Actually, you seem to be using an image tag with an audio file as source, so I'm not sure what your intent was.
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jeremycherfas And tab complete failed to complete. Rats
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jeremycherfas Let me try again.
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jeremycherfas !tell mrkrndvs The image for your audio player is broken, so there's no clue on your site what it is.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jeremycherfas Mrkrndvs Actually, you seem to be using an image tag with an audio file as source, so I'm not sure what your intent was.
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jeremycherfas Thanks sknebel
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[mrkrndvs] Thanks [jeremycherfas], was being lazy 😬 and trying to cut corners. Fixed
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Loqi [mrkrndvs]: jeremycherfas left you a message 10 minutes ago: The image for your audio player is broken, so there's no clue on your site what it is.
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Loqi [superfeedr] "It&rsquo;s Micro Monday again. I recommend everyone to start following @colinwalker, I think he was one of the first people I started following here on Micro.blog. If you are interested in IndieWeb, tech or philosophy it will be a follow worthwhile" on 2018-02-05 https://hjertnes.blog/2018/02/05/311/
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@artlung @Weegee @with_an_eff @sivavaid @NewsBlur RSS needs casual users again! #rss #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/976118265494650880)
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@ChrisAldrich @artlung Personally, I can't wait for the microsub spec to go mainstream. I think it'll open up a whole new renaissance for feed readers. https://indieweb.org/Microsub #RSSlives (twitter.com/_/status/976137287028346881)
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@benwerd @dubber The #indieweb community has built several of these! (twitter.com/_/status/976142357983780864)
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@kevinmarks https://irlpodcast.org/episode13/ @veronica finds people who escaped their filter bubbles by going online #Indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/976143441653514241)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "https://irlpodcast.org/episode13/ @veronica finds people who escaped their ..." by Kevin Marks on 2018-03-20 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2018/episode13-veronica-finds-people-who-escaped-their
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@mapkyca For those fleeing Facebook, I'll just mention that Elgg, Known and various other FOSS social network tools exist. You might also like taking a look at what #indieweb is up to. (twitter.com/_/status/976143601678868481)
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@aaronpk @dubber Here are some screenshots of exactly that! https://aaronparecki.com/2018/03/12/17/building-an-indieweb-reader We've been making a lot of progress on this over the last few years! I do post on my blog every day thanks to this interface too! :-) (twitter.com/_/status/976146405982068736)
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sl007 just read the logs - mastodon was somewhere mentioned in a line w. more protocol like stuff - just wanted to mention that mastodon supports ActivityPub https://activitypub.rocks/news/mastodon-ap-and-new-cr.html - hopefully someone will have a look in the issues somewhen https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams/issues and https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues
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snarfed sl007: yes! we're familiar. eg https://fed.brid.gy/
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Loqi Ryan Barrett
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snarfed (oh Loqi)
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swentel needs to start checking that one out too
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swentel it sounds sooo exciting
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swentel too much on my plate :)
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Zegnat I wonder if Loqi would parse info about Bridgy Fed if you added h-app to that page, snarfed
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Zegnat What is h-app?
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Loqi h-x-app is a proposed microformats vocabulary for marking up data about software applications https://indieweb.org/h-app
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@ChrisAldrich @sivavaid There _is_ a movement that's been building over the past few years called the #IndieWeb that is encouraging exactly this thing. They're creating new, easier-to-use, and open technology to replace what we've lost: https://indieweb.org/lost_infrastructure (twitter.com/_/status/976149954803707904)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@sivavaid There _is_ a movement that's been building over the past few years called the #IndieWeb that is encouraging exactly this thing. They're creating new," by Chris Aldrich on 2018-03-20 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2018/sivavaid-there-_is_-a-movement-thats-been-building-over-the
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aaronpk or at least removed the stray h-card
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skippy good morning, #indieweb
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aaronpk 😂 https://twitter.com/dubber/status/976155776808112128
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@dubber I love it when you say “I wish someone would hurry up and invent X” and then someone immediately comes back and says “I just bloody did!” :) https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/976146405982068736 (twitter.com/_/status/976155776808112128)
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@zmoglesby Is there any interest in a @WithKnown exercise plugin? https://indieweb.org/exercise (twitter.com/_/status/976159299834662912)
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Zegnat So how long are people giving this ’til it sunsets? https://www.blog.google/topics/google-news-initiative/introducing-subscribe-google/
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Zegnat [Jim Albrecht] Introducing Subscribe with Google
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sknebel I assume it'll never be available where I live anyways?
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sknebel although there is some movement towards centralized login for news from what I've heard, so maybe I'm wrong with that
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@LordPancreas @film_girl @elforesto Assuming you mean OpenID? I had completely forgotten about that! I even had it (partially?) implemented it on my server. But like most #indieweb initiatives, installing it was a high barrier to entry for non-techies. Not for lack of trying though—remember http://Chi.mp? (twitter.com/_/status/976176713112662017)
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@sl007 Disagreed. The fact that FB is more powerful than most governments does not tell me to make one of the worlds closest ecosystems even "better". It tells me to demand from my government to assure an independent web and to demand data protection from FB. #indieweb @DoroBaer https://twitter.com/EthanZ/status/976175744274624512 (twitter.com/_/status/976179428471558144)
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@sdepolo #Breaking: FTC probing Facebook for use of personal data: report https://buff.ly/2FQPMQg No matter what the FTC does, we should all re-think our dependence on any social silo with a biz model based on collecting and selling our data. See #indieweb for alternatives. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYwWy5dXkAAGtwt.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/976180284663181313)
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cweiske are there any readers that show comments?
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skippy if you subscribe to the comment feeds, sure...
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@sl007 @EthanZ @DoroBaer I see. –"And I'm doing my share of work on open platforms"– off course - just did not get the "make facebook better". Do not make facebook better. Instead let's meet at https://indieweb.org/2018/Düsseldorf or https://indieweb.org/2018​Portland ;) (twitter.com/_/status/976182107423768581)
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aaronpk I plan to add that
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cweiske I mean directly when viewing a post
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cweiske without subscribing manually to a comment feed
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cweiske I learned about the atom threading extension today, which basically exists since 2006 and allows embedding+linking comments in atom feeds
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cweiske and wordpress actually generates them
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snarfed cweiske: yes! granary includes <thr:in-reply-to> tags in its atom
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chrisaldrich What is a user?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "user" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "user is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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chrisaldrich What is a person?
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Loqi A person tag (AKA people tag) is a person mention that is also a tag on a post that refers to a specific person by URL rather than just a word or phrase, and is done as an explicit tagging action by the user, beyond just mentioning a person via hyperlink / h-card / or @-name, autocompleted or not https://indieweb.org/person
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chrisaldrich This quote from Mashable almost makes me want to explicitly define the difference between the two from an indieweb perspective:
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chrisaldrich A favorite editor of mine hated that word, "users," because it made it sound as though we were talking about something other than people. I can agree with that, but also see now that "users" is the word of moment: Facebook's problems extend forever out of the idea that we are all different clumps of data generation. Human life is incidental.
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chrisaldrich via https://mashable.com/2018/03/19/protect-yourself-and-your-friends-from-facebook/#6MQZGdKJEZqx
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@aaronpk This seems like a good time to re-read @hertling's book Kill Process, in which the protagonist, a database programmer at the world's largest social network, decides to destroy the company by decentralizing social networking #indieweb http://amzn.to/2FWgmUc (twitter.com/_/status/976203504648822785)
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tantek lol that's a real book?
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aaronpk yes and we're in it!
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tantek recent: published May 31, 2016
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tantek wat
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aaronpk https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2018-03-20-14-15-56-XJx3L7sdr0.jpg
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tantek looking inside the book now on Amazon
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tantek did a search for IndieWeb
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tantek uhhh
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KartikPrabhu what is selective sharing?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "selective sharing" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "selective sharing is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek "[…] Also you need to talk to Amber about IndieWeb."
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tantek !!!
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tantek that was from page 77
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tantek oh my goodness page 84
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tantek start of Chapter 16
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tantek "Mat mentioned IndieWeb, and when I first research it, there's almost too much for me to read: the grassroots effort has spawned a sprawling wiki and dozens of web sites. There are principles, how-to pages, protocol specifications, history, and nobody in charge of any of it. It's decentralized, self-organizing, and rapidly changing.
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tantek "The first principle is so compelling, I know they're onto something important: When you put something on the web, it should belong to you, not a corporation.
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KartikPrabhu lol! there is even a HTML+mf2 example :P
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chrisaldrich What are books about the indieweb?
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Loqi Books about the IndieWeb lists books that reference the IndieWeb and related topics https://indieweb.org/Books_about_the_IndieWeb
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tantek yeah that counts
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tantek lol POSSE is in there too
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tantek goodness sakes
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tantek what part of this is a "novel" vs. reporting on actual interactions that happened?!?
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KartikPrabhu so Amber is now a character in a ficitonal story?
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chrisaldrich I can't wait for the sequel which is supposed to have a character named Ketnat.
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KartikPrabhu lol!
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chrisaldrich ;)
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tantek 😂
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tantek p. 86: "The IndieWeb solution is POSSE. Post on Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere. You create content on your own domain, then copies are automatically shared to Tomo and other networks, with links back to the original version. Your friends and family keep using whatever silo they're on to read your stuff."
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tantek wow major shade thrown on protocol/plumbing first methodology!
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tantek amazing
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tantek hah p.88 h-card is so close to being correct!
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tantek "role" should be "p-role" (and nevermind the smart quotes that some editor / search replace likely "fixed")
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tantek and forgot p-name
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chrisaldrich The author has a personal website using WordPress with the SemPress theme: http://www.williamhertling.com/
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chrisaldrich He's also got webmention running.
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chrisaldrich Who is William Hertling?
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aaronpk he's been to a homebrew website club too
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chrisaldrich From his website: "IndieWeb is completely real and totally awesome. If you’re a programmer, get involved." http://www.williamhertling.com/2016/08/technology-of-kill-process/
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Loqi [hertling] The Technology of Kill Process
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tantek was just reading that post
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tbbrown ordered and looking forward to reading. thanks for pointer!
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Loqi tbbrown: gRegorLove left you a message on 2017-12-11 at 12:38am UTC: On your likes, looks like you need an explicit u-url property with the URL of your like. Without that and only one link inside the h-entry, that one link is used as the implied URL. See: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fherestomwiththeweather.com%2Fsocial%2F2017%2F12%2F10%2F82343%2F
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gRegorLove Whoa, cool. How is that book, aaronpk?
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aaronpk fun!
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aaronpk i also enjoyed his last one which was essentially about google
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gRegorLove makes an indieweb /want post for the indieweb book :)
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tbbrown (also thanks gRegorLove for the help with the h-entry fix)
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gRegorLove tbbrown: You're welcome. Good to see you back around!
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tbbrown gRegorLove: thanks. i was just checking out your micropub client for keeping track of reading books. looks cool.
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gRegorLove That's outdated at this point, so I wouldn't use it too much. :) I got a bit ahead of myself.
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tbbrown oh. did you use it for the "want to read" on your site?
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gRegorLove Not using it currently, no. More about it: https://gregorlove.com/2017/12/my-project-for-todays-indiewebcamp/
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] My project for today's IndieWebCamp Austin was initially to update my fork of Quill for posting read posts. I started by getting my fork of Quill updated. As I was working through some questions about how to include the action being taken on the boo...
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gRegorLove I need to update it to use those microformats. I decided to try posting them manually for a while first.
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tbbrown ok. cool. thanks.
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chrisaldrich GWG, on your hunt yesterday for Series posts, I remembered that cbfishes has some examples on his site: https://chrisbeckstrom.com/blog/en
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GWG I still can't figure out the unique definition
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GWG But we agree it's a thing
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gRegorLove What is series?
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Loqi series is a set of posts published in installments https://indieweb.org/series
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chrisaldrich Finding examples and documenting several is always a good start...
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chrisaldrich What is WWTD?
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Loqi WWTD or What Would Tantek Do? is a clarion call that serves as a good reminder of how to get back to Indieweb basics https://indieweb.org/WWTD
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GWG I spent last night working on enhancing my series on my site.
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GWG Tonight I should document
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GWG After snow prep
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tantek we shared some examples in IRC yesterday
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tantek those are probably worth capturing on the wiki page
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GWG I still need to fix the definition
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tantek yes, also true. these things can be edited in any order
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GWG But I now built some additional examples to enhance. I have yours as well
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GWG Can I add definition needs work to a wiki entry?
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KartikPrabhu <stub> ?
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tantek GWG better to just fix the dfn
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tantek 2 min rule and all
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GWG For me, a series is something I rarely finish
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aaronpk what is the two-minute rule?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "two-minute rule" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "two-minute rule is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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GWG Apparently for tantek as well, on trip reporting
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chrisaldrich I saw the Google Subscription post earlier and just ran across a news/journalism one as well. Makes me wonder if they're rolling it all out this week because of Facebook news or was it preplanned? https://www.blog.google/topics/google-news-initiative/announcing-google-news-initiative/
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tantek GWG that's worth noting as "Issues" with series posts
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@ChrisAldrich @jgkoomey @judell This is the general idea behind the #indieweb movement: https://indieweb.org For the price of registering your own domain and some hosting, you can run your own website and still interact with other websites in an open and distributed manner. (twitter.com/_/status/976243326339993600)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@jgkoomey @judell This is the general idea behind the #indieweb movement: https://indieweb.org For the price of registering your own domain and some hosting, you can run" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-03-20 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2018/jgkoomey-judell-this-is-the-general-idea-behind-the-indieweb
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