#indieweb 2018-03-21

2018-03-21 UTC
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tantek microblog++ https://twitter.com/ChrisAldrich/status/976245465741189120
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Loqi microblog has 1 karma
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@ChrisAldrich @jgkoomey @judell As an inexpensive model of this approach, http://Micro.blog has a paid, hosted version of this for $5/month. It takes a much more ethical approach to both community and data and encourages you to own your own data. https://micro.blog/ (twitter.com/_/status/976245465741189120)
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@HongPong @nelemarien @OhioResists @KimDHello @DamianCollins @chrisinsilico Check http://indieweb.org #indieweb also #POSSE and http://Mastodon.social (twitter.com/_/status/976263346654797824)
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[kevinmarks] Does anyone else remember Aaron Swartz's satirical novel Bubble City?
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tantek link?
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[kevinmarks] http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/bubblecity
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[kevinmarks] His css needs fixing for mobile
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[kevinmarks] Bonus points for decoding the roman à clef
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@malcolmblaney @dubber the cool thing about #indieweb is that you don't need to wait until everyone else is using it. POSSE ftw! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8owPpJMLHFg (twitter.com/_/status/976289518805434368)
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aaronpk mblaney++
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Loqi mblaney has 20 karma in this channel (23 overall)
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mblaney kevinmarks Bubble City was so great. I remember hassling Aaron to write more of it when the updates stopped, but he obviously had other things on his mind. :-(
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jjuran WhatsApp cofounder: 'It is time' to delete Facebook: <https://lite.cnn.io/en/article/h_c3d824cdcb61864781970dfd02943c46>
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@EddieHinkle @dentonjacobs Congrats! Welcome to Micropub land! #indieweb (https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/03/21/2/reply/) (twitter.com/_/status/976324939866427393)
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tantek wow is anyone tracking recent /silo-quits ? https://twitter.com/RodBegbie/status/976198675209834496
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@RodBegbie This week’s Facebook news feels like that initial #deleteuber moment. I’m seeing people I didn’t expect actively deleting their Facebook accounts. My mum is quitting! (twitter.com/_/status/976198675209834496)
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@t @overcaffeinated @RodBegbie @waferbaby #indieweb folks choose that which meets needs eg: https://eli.li/entry.php?id=20180314144847 #IndieAuth #Micropub #Webmention #RSS #Microformats and https://twitter.com/ChrisAldrich/status/961794239163068416. My site #hfeed #Atom. Simple building blocks enable ... http://tantek.com/t4tW5 (twitter.com/_/status/976339994121039872)
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tantek wow https://twitter.com/hashtag/DeleteFacebook
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tantek delete your account << https://twitter.com/hashtag/DeleteFacebook
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Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/hashtag/DeleteFacebook" to the "See Also" section of /delete_your_account
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Privacy Theater: Why Social Networks Only Pretend To Protect You: https://techcrunch.com/2009/12/27/privacy-theater/ by @rohitkhare From *2009*. #ownyourdata on the #indieweb before #Facebook or #DeleteFacebook" on 2018-03-21 http://tantek.com/2018/079/t6/privacy-theater-social-networks-pretend
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Loqi [superfeedr] "There’s no such thing as free private #socialmedia. Either: you pay for hosting your private data or someone else pays to access it or someone buys whole site, changes ToS (as you agreed to let them), does with your private data as they wish. #indieweb" on 2018-03-21 http://tantek.com/2018/079/t7/no-such-thing-free-private-social-media
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@t Privacy Theater: Why Social Networks Only Pretend To Protect You: https://techcrunch.com/2009/12/27/privacy-theater/ by @rohitkhare From *2009*. #ownyourdata on the #indieweb before #Facebook or #DeleteFacebook http://tantek.com/t4tW6 (twitter.com/_/status/976350917594353669)
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tantek whoa
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@t There’s no such thing as free private #socialmedia. Either you pay for hosting your private data or someone else pays to access it or someone buys whole site, changes ToS (as you agreed to let them), does with your private data as they wish #indieweb http://tantek.com/t4tW7 (twitter.com/_/status/976351498924851200)
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@jackysee 刪fb討論，通常就會是回twitter不是一樣嗎？ 哪一天出事又不是要走？ 還有第三條路:IndieWeb，但就不能貪方便了 (twitter.com/_/status/976354596556886017)
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@sl007 @anked “Digitale Monopole u demokratiefeindl. Geschäftsmodelle limitieren” - da hatte ich einen Traum : Zusätzlich Dezentralisierung stärken und Geschäftsmodelle für ein unabhängiges Internet fördern. btw: https://indieweb.org/2018/Düsseldorf (twitter.com/_/status/976361921183145984)
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@TT_SemWeb A year with the IndieWeb, posted March 14, 2018 https://eli.li/entry.php?id=20180314144847, see more http://tweetedtimes.com/topic/RWW/semantic-web?s=tnp (twitter.com/_/status/976363340841803776)
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petermolnar tantek: re free social media: secure scuttlebutt? Also, that entry should be turned into a haiku.
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Zegnat I wish I understood more of non-HTTP-networking to understand scuttlebutt.
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Zegnat Does anyone have “for print” hyphenated domainnames? I just saw https://twitter.com/mathewbutler/status/972430958480719872 which made Troy register havei-beenpwned.com (note the hyphen) to redirect to the usual haveibeenpwned.com
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@mathewbutler @troyhunt just to let you know that you and HIBP get a positive mention in the UK press https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DX7ExiCXUAA9m8L.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/972430958480719872)
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Zegnat Two more examples of domains he registered because media companies publishes the wrong ones: https://www.troyhunt.com/the-legitimisation-of-have-i-been-pwned/#media%20companies%20struggling%20with%20the%20name%20have%20caused%20me%20to%20register%20some%20rather%20odd%20domains
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Zegnat (fragmention)
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[unoabraham] Guys wanted some inputs on how to use multiple domains with IndieWeb.
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[unoabraham] All my content will be syndicated to 1 Facebook account, 1 Twitter account, and anything else I can get working.
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[unoabraham] Yesterday, I set up IndieAuth on Domain 1, and when trying to set up syndication for POSSE on Domain 2, I realized I needed to set up IndieAuth on Domain 2.
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[unoabraham] However, the content will be coming from 2/3 WordPress blogs.
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[unoabraham] It seems easily done when all the content is from one website, but I plan to have a blog, another photoblog, and a 3rd blog for long-form content.
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[unoabraham] What's the best way to go about it in the IndieWeb context?
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[kevinmarks] You can rel-me them all together to indicate that they are the same person, but I'm not sure what your difficulty is - brid.gy will accept urls in the bio on twitter as well as the url field, eg twitter.com/kevinmarks links to 2 of my sites
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Zegnat Surely there are loads of syndication plugins for WordPress, that you can just point all to the same Twitter/Facebook account?
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Zegnat Or is the problem backfeeding reactions, e.g. Bridgy?
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[unoabraham] I set up IndieAuth for 1.com and it was the website linked on my Facebook and Twitter profiles. However, when setting up Bridgy for 2.com it did not work as 2.com was not the link on the profiles. I had to setup 2.com as my website on Twitter and Facebook to setup Bidgy.
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[unoabraham] I'm going to try multiple URLs in Twitter bio, but not an option for FB and GitHub.
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[unoabraham] Coming to the first part of your reply, I'll try to set up IndieAuth on 1.com and then relme to 2.com, 3.com, etc. Unless I've completely missed the point.
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[unoabraham] Not been able to set up backfeeding yet, in fact even syndication hasn't worked yet for me, some error in the Bridgy plugin.
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[unoabraham] I can syndicate using the likes of IFTTT and WP plugins , but was under the assumption that syndication needed to be done via Bridgy for backfeeding/webmentions to work.
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Zegnat does not use Bridgy and would like to refer to someone who does
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cweiske that's a rel-me problem
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cweiske if you had your own indieauth server, then it would work without problems
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cweiske indieauth.com uses rel-me to decide who to authenticate you with
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cweiske (but maybe it's a bridgy problem. I don't use that myself)
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Zegnat I think Bridgy uses rel-me (or other backlink) to know when it should syndicate for you, cweiske. Not authentication per se.
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Zegnat It might be the wrong time of day (time zone) to be asking Bridgy questions :(
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jeremycherfas !tell [unoabraham] I tried having a couple of WP sites syndicate to Twitter and it was the backfeed from brid.gy that was the problem. I never did solve it. Wasn't too much of an itch.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jeremycherfas I also did not have much luck using the Brid.gy plugin to syndicate from WP. I do it manually, and manually add the Twitter link to the Syndication plugin.
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Zegnat manual until it hurts
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Zegnat !tell GWG here is another example of a series of posts: https://research.swtch.com/vgo
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jeremycherfas After a while, it really doesn't hurt as much.
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jeremycherfas Although I do still need to edit, manually, a syndicated from link as per your suggestion.
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@huffduffer Identity - IndieWebCamp Baltimore 2018 https://huffduffer.com/mrkrndvs/467029 (twitter.com/_/status/976423966146531328)
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@jgmac1106 Today I will be setting up a private social network so the family can quit @facebook and @instagram. Thinking of using @withknown. Could be a watershed moment for #indieweb when my mom wants to quit @facebook (twitter.com/_/status/976424135785099266)
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Zegnat That would be interesting ^^^ Does anyone here have any experience running multi-user Known instances?
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petermolnar "I can't think why anyone would still want to be there, except to find a larger audience." https://www.jeremycherfas.net/blog/a-user-considers
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Loqi [Jeremy Cherfas] A user considers
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petermolnar jeremycherfas++
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Loqi jeremycherfas has 7 karma in this channel (17 overall)
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petermolnar that is the main problem - the desperation for fame
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jeremycherfas To be fair, it isn't only fame. I am also trying to build an audience for my podcast, because more might be better. If I get 100 new listeners, I might get 1 new supporter, which would enable me to do better work.
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Zegnat jeremycherfas++ for that write-up!
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Loqi jeremycherfas has 8 karma in this channel (18 overall)
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Zegnat Wait, only 8 karma?! There is no justict!
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Loqi [superfeedr] "There's something funny with the way micro.blog is handling time zones. Posts from my WithKnown come in on time. Posts from another site show up with a time stamp 8 hours ahead of my "now". Pub date in RSS shows local time and zone." by Jeremy Cherfas on 2018-03-21 https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2018/theres-something-funny-with-the-way-microblog-is-handling-time
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[adamrice] I'm curious what (if anything) the POSSE approach would be to running something like a discussion board/facebook group
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Zegnat Probably very close to the POSSE approach to issue trackers? Some people here are now POSSEing issues and replies to GitHub
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[adamrice] That seems to abandon some of the useful features of a discussion board, eg moderation.
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@mestery Hey @cleverdevil, a couple of questions for you on your Indieweb journey: 1) Do you use micropub to post? 2) Have a handy getting started guide? Thanks! &lt;3 (twitter.com/_/status/976448794345709568)
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sknebel [adamrice]: ? you can still use the moderation tools on the system you POSSE to (and those on your own site if you display responses there too). or do you want to be able to send moderation commands from e.g. your site to Facebook? not aware of an example of that, but if the API exposes it that'd be possible too
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sknebel or am I misunderstanding what you are asking about?
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@mestery Hey @davewiner, what is your take on @indiewebcamp: https://indieweb.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/976450404908019712)
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petermolnar oh dear
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Zegnat Yeah, it does nothing about moderation. On GitHub, as a repo owner, I may still remove the comment. In fact, this then turns into one of the reasons to POSSE: while the GitHub (or your theoretical forum) controller gets to moderate/censor you, your actual writing never gets removed from its canonical URL under your control
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[adamrice] @sknebel No, you're right, and my own thinking was a little confused. I was jumping ahead in my mind to a situation where there is no centralized resource that you syndicate to.
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Zegnat Moderation on a 100% federated system is basically just the moderation you can already see on platforms like Mastodon.
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@petermolnar @mestery @davewiner @indiewebcamp There's a long history on that, but it might be outdated. Entries to read and start with: https://richardmacmanus.com/2017/06/22/openness-rivers-indieweb/ http://scripting.com/2017/06/21.html#a060633 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/the-indieweb-includes-rss-and-much-more-but-davewiner-is (twitter.com/_/status/976453859081117696)
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petermolnar wow, that's offensive, twitter: I add 3 links in a tweet, twitter selects the middle one for preview and I don't have any way to change it or remove it
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jeremycherfas Really? Maybe you should have done the really pointless thing of a tweetstorm?
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petermolnar now it changed on it's own: out of the 3 links, 2 are text, 3rd is clickable with image o.O
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jeremycherfas You can't make this stuff up.
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petermolnar how does this appear to you? https://twitter.com/petermolnar/status/976453859081117696
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@petermolnar @mestery @davewiner @indiewebcamp There's a long history on that, but it might be outdated. Entries to read and start with: https://richardmacmanus.com/2017/06/22/openness-rivers-indieweb/ http://scripting.com/2017/06/21.html#a060633 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/the-indieweb-includes-rss-and-much-more-but-davewiner-is (twitter.com/_/status/976453859081117696)
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Zegnat 2 clickables, third became a tweet card
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petermolnar when I posted it, the screen showed 3 links and a preview of the middle url below the tweet
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petermolnar I should have taken a screenshot
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Loqi yea!
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jeremycherfas Same here. Two links and a card. And when you go back and see https://github.com/scripting/myWordEditor/pull/1 it really does seem as if asking Dave what he thinks about indieweb is just poking a hornets nest for the fun of it.
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Loqi [kevinmarks] #1 Add h-entry markup to default template
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sknebel yeah, tat's what twitter is supposed/documented to do: last link gets the card
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petermolnar I'm trying to believe these tweets are originated from naivete and not from fun :/
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@cleverdevil @mestery Hey! 1. Yup. I use Micropub to post using a variety of clients on the front end. I use @withknown as my CMS right now. 2. Tons of good info on https://indieweb.org, but I’d encourage you to join us in our chat (available on both Slack and IRC - http://chat.indieweb.org). (twitter.com/_/status/976460153544327168)
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[kevinmarks] gdpr << https://blog.acolyer.org/2018/03/21/on-purpose-and-by-necessity-compliance-under-the-gdpr/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://blog.acolyer.org/2018/03/21/on-purpose-and-by-necessity-compliance-under-the-gdpr/" to the "See Also" section of /GDPR
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@karabaic Isn’t this what #indieweb is all about? This set of w3c standards, with shipping code, is not mentioned once. @guardian, put Ms O’Shea on that story as a followup. Time to cut ties with the digital oligarchs and rewire the web https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/20/digital-oligarchs-rewire-web-facebook-scandal?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other (twitter.com/_/status/976465308054515712)
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@kevinmarks How machine learning is likely to discriminate against minorities statistically from @acolyer “a classifier will most likely use complicated combinations of multiple categories and any rare combinations will have very few observations.” https://blog.acolyer.org/2017/01/31/european-union-regulations-on-algorithmic-decision-making-and-a-right-to-explanation/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/976466582644797441)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "How machine learning is likely to discriminate ..." by Kevin Marks on 2018-03-21 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2018/how-machine-learning-is-likely-to-discriminate
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[kevinmarks] TimBL always mentioning Solid rather than the swwg standards is a bit annoying.
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Zegnat I found the Solid spec very dense when I looked at it. Wasn’t even immediately clear to me how to add a Solid identity to my website..
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@megarush1024 So apparently while I was away from the internets, it came out that Facebook, shall we say, mishandled a rather large chunk of data. Reactions, in order: (1) Holy shit. (2) Reading posts from #indieweb. (3) Help less technical friends and family make a graceful exit from Facebook (twitter.com/_/status/976469297609564161)
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[adamrice] To answer my own question, apparently there's this, which attempts to interlink independent postings into a community. I still don't know much about it http://sioc-project.org
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Zegnat Interesting. I wonder if there is any overlap with ActivityPub/ActivityStream
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Chris Aldrich on Twitter: "@jgkoomey @judell This is the general idea behind the #indieweb movement: https://t.co/NG6ELqxCHC For the price of registering your own domain and some hosting, you can run your own website and still interact with other websites in an open and distributed manner."" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2018-03-21 https://twitter.com/ChrisAldrich/status/976243326339993600
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@jgmac1106 @megarush1024 Just got done setting up a @withknown instance for my family, They all want off facebook and instagram now. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/976474586228363265)
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@cleverdevil @mestery Awesome! Definitely hop into IndieWeb chat to meet the community. It’s an amazing group of people. (twitter.com/_/status/976474711344345091)
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[kevinmarks] sioc is more like foaf iirc
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petermolnar actually, you don't need hosting or a domain for a start: a dynamic dns with a raspberry pi, or any other, old pc/laptop can do just as good with something like yunohost
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@megarush1024 @jgmac1106 Going to look into doing this, including accessibility implications. A lot of my friends are disabled, and so accessibility is not a nice-to-have. It will need to wait until I am back home though. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/976475215420182530)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "EDITORIAL: STRATEGIC RETREAT" by JASON PRAMAS on 2018-03-21 http://digboston.com/editorial-strategic-retreat/
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[adamrice] [kevinmarks] SIOC is like FOAF in the sense that it's an RDF ontology describing relationships. But its goal seems to be to describe relationships between posts, not people, if I understand it correctly.
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tantek what is scuttlebutt
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "scuttlebutt" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "scuttlebutt is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek what is secure scuttlebutt
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Loqi Secure Scuttlebutt is a P2P system to sync message feeds, used to build (among others) social applications that work in off-grid/sneakernet scenarios https://indieweb.org/Secure_Scuttlebutt
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tantek petermolnar: meh their site doesn't scroll in Firefox
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Chris Aldrich" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-03-21 http://boffosocko.com/2018/03/21/indieweb-and-the-future/
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tantek also "messaging" sounds like "email" which is not social media, sorry to say
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Zegnat I have no problem with their site in Firefox
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tantek hmm I can drag the scrollbar. maybe a problem with my mouse n.m.
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Zegnat Screenshots here btw: https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications.html
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petermolnar tantek: short summary for ssbc is shiny usenet with unicorns and local news server on the desktop
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petermolnar say, slack for usenet ;)
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tantek yeah, while that has aspects, that, nor usenet, is "social media" which has at a minimum profiles, likes, shares in addition to just "messaging" / email-like features
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petermolnar what is social media?
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Loqi social media is the marketing term for silos and silo posts, ironically more anti-social than social, and encouraging of extreme opposition rather than medium perspectives https://indieweb.org/social_media
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tantek event slack is chat, not social media
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petermolnar I don't think we've ever defined, nor that we should define, what counts as social media
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Zegnat Yes, see the minbase screenshot for example tantek: https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications.html#minbase - in feed replies, digs (which I think are likes), and it even shows a “follow” interaction
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Zegnat in-reader reply option - i should say
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tantek petermolnar: the popular media etc. have a definition-by-use of social media
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tantek and it's roughly what i outlined above. profiles, posts, likes, reposts
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petermolnar SSBC is definitely social media then
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tantek petermolnar: no evidence of likes/reposts/profiles there
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petermolnar in the screenshots? yes, there are; at least the buttons are there
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tantek perhaps expand the /Scuttlebutt page accordingly then? it doesn't seem like anyone uses it for anything
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petermolnar https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications.html
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tantek apps != users
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petermolnar and ssbc is not a silo but a protocol
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petermolnar (did you check the screenshots?)
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Zegnat Hard to link to users for a sneakernet P2P network :P I think an important distinction to make w.r.t. IndieWeb is that this isn’t the HTTP-web.
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tantek screenshots of users != users
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tantek so it's not web
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petermolnar no, who said social media has to be web?
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tantek or at least not WWW
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tantek everyone in pop media that uses the term
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tantek find a single use of "social media" in the news etc that applies to something *not* on the WWW
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petermolnar strictly speaking instagram is not www - it's app-only. It has a limited functionality www gateway.
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Zegnat Snapchat
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tantek nope, strictly speaking instagram.com works to browse profiles, photos, login, like, comment
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petermolnar than, snapchat, as Zegnat mentioned
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tantek no: https://www.wired.com/story/stop-calling-snapchat-a-social-network/
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Zegnat Well, if you are making the news argument. Normal news, like USA Today, calls Snapchat social media: https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/03/01/could-you-quit-social-media-your-answer-may-depend-your-age/384979002/
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petermolnar I heavily disagree with your definition, tantek; social media doesn't have to be www and there is minimal viable functionality defined anywhere. General pop culture will call anything social media that has an app and a lot of users.
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Zegnat WIRED is way more technical already, maybe they’ll be making a distinction, but the average media I see is very much still calling Snapchat a social media platform
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skippy i think it depends on how you define "social", and "media" and "social media".
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@ChrisAldrich I remember the early days of Twitter when people were excited about what it was and what it could do. Even then I don’t think people were as excited as @cbfishes was when he made what is certainly the #IndieWeb quote of the week this morning. http://boffosocko.com/2018/03/21/indieweb-and-the-future/ https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DY0wVJVU0AAWEzA.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/976490689797111808)
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@mattmaldre @ChrisAldrich @cbfishes I gotta get myself on this #IndieWeb train. (twitter.com/_/status/976490874610880515)
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petermolnar s/there is/there is no/
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skippy i'd call snapchat "social media". i think there's a distinction between "public social media" and "social group media". snapchat is the latter.
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Zegnat WIRED 2018-03-12: How to Make a Clean Break With the Clingiest Social Networks. Featuring Snapchat, of course.
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Zegnat WIRED 2018-03-03: Stop Calling Snapchat a Social Network.
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tantek petermolnar: here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media
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Zegnat Well done WIRED.
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tantek Zegnat++ hah
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Loqi zegnat has 85 karma in this channel (184 overall)
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petermolnar if you say social media needs to be www, needs to have reactions, comment, repost, status, follow, etc., we couldn't call facebook social media 5 years ago, since it didn't have reactions...
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Zegnat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media#Most_popular_services - lists both WhatsApp and Snapchat. So Wikipedia doesn’t apply the “interactive Web 2.0 Internet-based applications” definition themselves, or do not take that to mean WWW/HTTP
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@ChrisAldrich @mattmaldre Come join us in the #IndieWeb #WordPress chat if you need any help: https://chat.indieweb.org/wordpress/ (twitter.com/_/status/976491831121891328)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@mattmaldre Come join us in the #IndieWeb #WordPress chat if you need any help: https://chat.indieweb.org/wordpress/" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-03-21 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2018/mattmaldre-come-join-us-in-the-indieweb-wordpress-chat-if
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tantek petermolnar: FB has had like more than 5 years
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tantek https://indieweb.org/like#Facebook
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tantek they copied it from FriendFeed shortly after FriendFeed introduced it
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tantek https://indieweb.org/like#FriendFeed
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tantek which was over 10 years ago
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tantek and yes the term social media is only about 10 years old at most
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tantek before that we had "conversational media" (popularized, unfortunately, by Technorati) which morphed over time into "social media"
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tantek and we had "social networks"
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petermolnar reactions != like - twitter used to have fav, for example
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tantek like/fave are basically synonymous as we have seen convergence since
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petermolnar (btw, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeviantArt -> scroll to Innovations table)
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Loqi DeviantArt
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tantek at least WP documents some of the mess: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media#Definition_and_classification
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aaronpk wow, being able to reply from my reader is amazing, and also makes it dangerously easy to post without thinking about it like i'm posting to my website
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tantek "dangerously easy"
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swentel hehe
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swentel is reading up on microsub now for the indigenous android / drupal projects
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swentel a bit confused right now though
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chrisaldrich Is there a way to change the posting interface for readers to make it more implicit that one is still posting to their own website, so that one takes a greater feeling of ownership of their posts which occur somewhere else?
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chrisaldrich aaronpk, perhaps putting your avatar or one for your site (favicon?) next to the post interface would help?
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chrisaldrich It could be pulled in from your h-card when you log in with your site.
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aaronpk possibly. right now my avatar is in the bottom right corner, but that isn't right next to the reply box
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snarfed also help guide/push people to hide responses from their home page feeds by default, to limit unintentional "damage"
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snarfed maybe step by step instructions for the big CMSes
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[cleverdevil] Good morning, IndieWeb 🙂
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chrisaldrich Sometimes one of my favorite things about manual until it hurts on my site is that it creates a large enough barrier that I don't post less quality material that I'd be disappointed in seeing again later.
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aaronpk very true
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tantek chrisaldrich welcome to my life since 2010 😂
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chrisaldrich That's an interesting thought snarfed, though I often think you're hiding some of your best content from appearing on your homepage. :)
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chrisaldrich The dead simple ability to post anything at any time is one of the things that makes Twitter feel like a dumpster fire at times. The fact that it all goes by relatively quickly and nearly no sense of ownership makes things worse too.
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tantek petermolnar: impressive longevity for DeviantArt
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[eddie] swentel glad to hear you’re reading up on Microsub. Feel free to post any technical questions on microsub in @indieweb-dev and we can chat about them 🙂
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[eddie] We try to keep this channel for less technical, general UX and principles discussion
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petermolnar so, did we, in the end, agree, www is not a requirement for "social media"?
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tantek no, rather that there is far more inconsistency (documented!) than initially assumed
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petermolnar but... if we refer to pop culture as source of truth, we have to assume, www is not a requirement, see snapchat
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tantek I think it's in dispute
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petermolnar (besides I don't understand the clinging to www - it's just another protocol)
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tantek given there's actual article(s) saying snapchat is not a social network
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tantek I tend to agree, messaging service != social network
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aaronpk www is a little more than plumbing since it has a user-facing aspect of it -- URLs that are in print for example, that people actually do type in
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aaronpk in contrast, SMTP is entirely plumbing since no part of that protocol is visible to end users
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petermolnar no, it's not, it's just that that's the popular thing right now; a bbs phone number was just like this 30+ years ago
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tantek right www has URLs that are actively part of the UX
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aaronpk bbs phone numbers are not a counterexample to my point
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petermolnar xyz@domain.com - what's part of the ux for email...
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petermolnar (confusingly though that can be an xmpp address)
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tantek yup and if you load that you don't get any content
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Zegnat (Are written down URLs a Western-thing? Have to ask because I just saw a multi-episode documentary on China and everything looks like phones and barcodes there.)
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petermolnar chinese tend to stick to numbers
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tantek Zegnat - perhaps charset based yeah
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petermolnar even in usernames and urls
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dgold Zegnat: QR are _big_ in japan
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petermolnar so are in china, take a look at wechat
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petermolnar speaking of which... is wechat social media?
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petermolnar it doesn't have www
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Loqi [superfeedr] "You can get good help" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2018-03-21 https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2018/you-can-get-good-help
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tantek no, messaging services are not social media, unless you want to call POTS social media
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petermolnar but it has follow, posts, like, etc., even payments and annoucnements
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Zegnat I mostly only know off different EU cultures. And even there I see the differences. So I am always a little scary in saying things like “www has URLs that are actively part of the UX” when that might just not be true for a huge swath of the world’s population ;)
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petermolnar wechat is _not_ messaging
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tantek sorry misread as whatsapp
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tantek yes wechat has social media features
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tantek as you noted, and many more
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tantek what is wechat
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "wechat" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "wechat is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat s/scary in/scared of/
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petermolnar ("I always get mixed up between golf and fire" - The IT Crowd)
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[adamrice] Numerical URLs are regarded as easy to type and unambiguous by Chinese (from what I undertstand) and internationalized domain names are just regarded as inconvenient.
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Zegnat (Don’t know what sort of English is coming out of my fingers tonight. I apologise in advance.)
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tantek Zegnat, AFAIK, all localizations for Firefox show and enable a copy/paste URL bar
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tantek so yes, in that way, actively part of the UX
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petermolnar what is wechat - that is _very_ hard to answer
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "wechat - that is _very_ hard to answer" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "wechat - that is _very_ hard to answer is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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@sdepolo @ChrisStrub @UTKnoxville @RossPR @jencoleICT @iSocialFanz @BlakeACroft @kerrymflynn @aiaddysonzhang @MadalynSklar @KMPulito @HannahDrake628 @askMsQ Good luck. Teach'm how to control their own destiny by building their own websites on a domain they own and use social media without getting used by it, like you do. See #indieweb https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video_thumb/DY0_UYQUMAAS4vI.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/976506347008139264)
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Zegnat Safari doesn’t show URLs unless you want to interact with them specifically. So that’s already less part of the UX. E.g. to my uncle tapping cards in Facebook and having them open in Safari on iOS, he never sees a URL.
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Zegnat Both Facebook and Safari are hiding it from him as plumbing.
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Zegnat For big news sites, that is, because of TLS
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aaronpk and here's what happens when browsers hide URLs https://aaronparecki.com/2014/06/06/12/the-importance-of-urls
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] The Importance of URLs
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Zegnat Will be interesting to see if URLs make a comeback from that, or might be hidden even more often, in the future
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aaronpk can't believe that was 2014... before the whole "fake news" thing blew up
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tantek aaronpk, time to queue that up for April 1
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tantek Zegnat,petermolnar: what CMS do you use? https://indieweb.org/content_management_system#Examples
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tantek wait FB bought Whatsapp, and now Whatsapp co-founder says to delete your FB account: https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2018/03/20/whatsapp-co-founder-urges-people-delete-facebook/444105002/
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tantek what is delete your account
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Loqi delete your account is an encouragement to delete your (silo) account, e.g https://indieweb.org/delete_your_account
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tantek wow: https://twitter.com/brianacton/status/976231995846963201
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@brianacton It is time. #deletefacebook (twitter.com/_/status/976231995846963201)
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Zegnat My CMS doesn’t have documentation, little reason to add it on the wiki
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tantek good reason to start documenting it
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tantek what's your CMS called?
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Zegnat No name. But I guess I can call it Sink now, since it is the precursor to that.
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Zegnat And Sink is already on the wiki. Hmmm...
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tantek you could call it Zink
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aaronpk Zink++
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Loqi zink has 1 karma
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Zegnat That doesn’t work for me. That’s just Dutch for zinc, so then I feel like I am limiting myself to metals.
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Zegnat We’ll see. For now, no parts are open-source, so there is little value in listing it publicly
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tantek Zegnat, a fine tradition, I believe there used to be a CMS called HoTMetaL
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Zegnat I might just limit my naming scheme to “things found in a kitchen” :P
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tantek or how about Zenk?
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sebsel It's also Dutch for the verb 'to sink'. If you go the 'sink'-to-Dutch round, go for Wasbak :P
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tantek Wasbak is amazing
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mlncn Hi... will disabling "Platform" on Facebook as is now being encouraged - see https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/how-change-your-facebook-settings-opt-out-platform-api-sharing - prevent people from seeing posts sent to Facebook from a bridge?
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mlncn And will opting out of Platform stop my ability to post from Bridgy (and so withknown) from Facebook?
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tantek mlncn: good questions
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tantek petermolnar: ok here it is :) https://www.fastcompany.com/40501584/snap-ceo-evan-spiegel-slams-social-media-and-says-snapchat-isnt-social-media
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tantek what is Snapchat
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Loqi Snapchat is an ephemeral photo hosting silo where users post photos to their story, which are viewable for a limited number of seconds, sometimes a few times https://indieweb.org/Snapchat
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snarfed mlncn: looks like yes
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tantek Snapchat << 2017-11-29 FastCompany: [https://www.fastcompany.com/40501584/snap-ceo-evan-spiegel-slams-social-media-and-says-snapchat-isnt-social-media Snap CEO Evan Spiegel slams social media—and says Snapchat isn’t social media]
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Loqi ok, I added "2017-11-29 FastCompany: [https://www.fastcompany.com/40501584/snap-ceo-evan-spiegel-slams-social-media-and-says-snapchat-isnt-social-media Snap CEO Evan Spiegel slams social media—and says Snapchat isn’t social media]" to the "See Also" section of /Snapchat
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snarfed looks like it will go even further and delete old posts you made via apps like bridgy
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tantek wow
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snarfed (reading the FB screenshot in that article)
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tantek maybe worth a warning somewhere?
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mlncn that was my understanding too
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tantek OR maybe that's a feature when you're ready to leave!
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tantek if all your FB posts are via Bridgy Publish...
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snarfed mlncn: consider using "Apps Others Use => Edit" instead
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mlncn was wondering if anyone had pressed the button... i'm going to hold off.
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mlncn snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 304 karma in this channel (369 overall)
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mlncn yep
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tantek snarfed, I'm wondering what's the feasibility of update for Bridgy Publish
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tantek or perhaps a simpler function, secure delete
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tantek where Bridgy Publish overwrites a previously POSSEd post with random 0s and 1s
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Zegnat I have hit that button, but I do not connect anything to Facebook in the first place.
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Zegnat Well, except Instagram, which I believe may be excempt because Facebook owns it. I should test that actually...
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@EddieHinkle @dentonjacobs No worries! Feel free to join the #indieweb irc or Slack channels if you have any questions! We’re always happy to help 🙂 https://indieweb.org/discuss (https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/03/21/11/reply/) (twitter.com/_/status/976515322898509826)
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snarfed bridgy publish update/delete discussion in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/84
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Loqi [snarfed] #84 allow updating or deleting a published post
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Zegnat Insteresting. Instagram is *not* exempt. So I got logged out of it
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snarfed we should probably only call something "secure delete" if it's implemented on the backend
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Loqi I agree
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snarfed ie, it wouldn't be for silos, or arguably even for micropub clients
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tantek snarfed, yeah naming
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tantek snarfed, it's the backend that is not trusted with "delete" in this case
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tantek so it's not clear how to trust a backend for "secure delete"
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snarfed ...and likewise that update would overwrite instead of just storing a new version
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tantek snarfed, I think for silos that lack a versioning UI, it's reasonable to presume updates overwrite
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tantek (assuming lazy implementations and all)
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tantek (database table update)
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tantek whereas deletes are often implemented as just a flag (data is not actually deleted / overwritten)
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snarfed tantek: not at all. definitely do not assume that. many layers of
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snarfed er, sorry. at big tech cos, there are many different cooperating layers of libs and infastructure. the lower levels generally include redundancy, journalling storage, etc., and often don't expose those to even higher level internal software, much less as UI
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snarfed basically, i would never want to call a feature "secure" if that security was based only on assumptions about code i couldn't see
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tantek agreed
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tantek more like an overwrite delete then
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tantek wherein the client first updates a post with noise, then deletes it
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tantek the goal here likely increasing entropy
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tantek even though, as you point out, implementations have many layers that could be doing who knows what
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tantek in "simple" (e.g. a single MySQL DB) implementations, such an overwrite delete should be effective
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tantek (baring disk level inspections etc. obv)
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tantek *barring
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tantek similar to security, the goal is relative raising of barriers, not absolute
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aaronpk i would only trust my own server/storage to implement something called "secure delete"
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tantek yeah moved on from that name
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tantek hence "overwrite delete"
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Zegnat I seem to recall overwriting posts is a thing people do/did on reddit. But can’t recall the reason
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Zegnat E.g. “When it became known that post edits were not saved but post deletions were saved, code was added to edit your post prior to deletion.” - https://github.com/x89/Shreddit
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Loqi [x89] Shreddit: Remove your comment history on Reddit as deleting an account does not do so.
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Zegnat At least 4 years ago, reddit did set just a “deleted” flag but did not store full edit history: https://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/1dhw2j/reddits_privacy_policy_has_been_rewritten_from/c9qgbbb/
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Zegnat So “overwrite delete” is a thing there, if their policy hasn’t changed.
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tantek Zegnat I suspect it is
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tantek and it's also the kind of thing that would allow such services to plausibly claim they don't have something
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tantek or return noise if asked to return something (contents of a post)
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petermolnar re tantek I don't really use a CMS any more, I wrote a small static(ish) generator, called NASG (Not Another Static Generator) - static-ish, because it renders a PHP for 302 and 410 content
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tantek whether they are selling the data or complying with an order
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tantek what is NASG
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Loqi NASG is "not another static generator!", a static generator written in Python3 powering the site of Peter Molnar https://indieweb.org/NASG
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tantek nice
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sknebel petermolnar: what's the sqlite in NASG for?
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@t hosting Homebrew Website Club SF tonight @MozSF! RSVP http://tantek.com/2018/080/e1 Special guest @aaronpk will demo his #IndieWeb reader setup! https://aaronparecki.com/2018/03/12/17/building-an-indieweb-reader built on #openweb standards #WebSub #Microsub #microformats2 #IndieAuth #MicroPub ... http://tantek.com/t4tX1 (twitter.com/_/status/976527420189761536)
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petermolnar sknebel: incoming webmentions queue and full text search
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skippy what is XRay?
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Loqi XRay is an open source API that returns structured data for a URL by parsing microformats and following other indieweb algorithms, and is part of the p3k suite of applications https://indieweb.org/XRay
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@soapfanfiction Congratulations to #indieweb of Awesome @TheBaytheSeries for 2018 #DaytimeEmmy nominations. https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video_thumb/DY1dZZRWsAEsY7p.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/976539436979761154)
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[kevinmarks] Did someone say buttons? https://youtu.be/QN1mabged1U
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[kevinmarks] Overwrite delete is tombstoning
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@adamprocter Breaking news and classic Zuckerberg: We made mistakes #ownyourdata #freetheweb #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/976545946740895744)
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@mestery I am getting so excited to start playing around with Indieweb technologies. Some very cool stuff out there! (twitter.com/_/status/976546125124485120)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "It&#8217;s easier to #DeleteFacebook when you&#8217;ve got somewhere to go&#8230; http://boffosocko.com/2017/07/28/an-introduction-to-the-indieweb/" by Chris Aldrich on 2018-03-21 http://boffosocko.com/2018/03/21/deletefacebook-for-indieweb/
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@ChrisAldrich It's easier to #DeleteFacebook when you've got somewhere to go. #IndieWeb http://boffosocko.com/2017/07/28/an-introduction-to-the-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/976548985530757120)
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[kevinmarks] Zuck: we will make it much harder for you to use apps to extract data from Facebook. Lol.
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[kevinmarks] https://m.facebook.com/zuck/posts/10104712037900071
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[kevinmarks] The original statement of Facebook's business model still stands https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg
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[cleverdevil] Welp, one last download of my data from Facebook, and then I'm processing my deletion. About 8-9 months ahead of my original schedule.
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snarfed cringes for bridgy's facebook API usage
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petermolnar well... bridgy is mostly putting data in, not getting it out, so POSSE shouldn't be hard ;)
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[eddie] Yeah, I was thinking that, Snarfed. PESOS/Backfeeding from Facebook may not last much longer
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snarfed right. in usage terms, backfeed is way bigger for bridgy than publish
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/bridgy_stats/2018/activity.png
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snarfed (also https://brid.gy/#stats , 1M wms sent vs 29k publishes)
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aaronpk if bridgy stops being able to backfeed facebook responses i might just stop using facebook :P
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snarfed gladly accepts that compliment :P
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GWG I'll go with that as well. If I can't bring things back to my site, then what's the point?
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Loqi GWG: Zegnat left you a message 9 hours, 36 minutes ago: here is another example of a series of posts: https://research.swtch.com/vgo
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Kyle Mestery on Twitter: "I am getting so excited to start playing around with Indieweb technologies. Some very cool stuff out there!"" by Jonathan LaCour on 2018-03-21 https://twitter.com/mestery/status/976546125124485120
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wolf hello. I'm wondering why the "#2314 (kein Titel)" appears above my h-card-widget. Any ideas?
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wolf sorry, here's the url http://wolfwitte.de/wordpress2/
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GWG That's a new one on me.
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[cleverdevil] https://cleverdevil.io/2018/ive-officially-deleted-my-facebook-account-and
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Loqi [Jonathan LaCour] I've officially deleted my Facebook account, and it will disappear completely from Facebook within 14 days. It feels great. I hope they go down in flames.
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[cleverdevil] \o/
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sebsel [cleverdevil]++
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Loqi cleverdevil has 43 karma in this channel (73 overall)
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swentel there's still a link on your homepage to it :P
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swentel runs
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[cleverdevil] Haha
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Loqi rofl
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[cleverdevil] Fixed!
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@wolfwitte indieweb (schon wieder) http://wolfwitte.de/wordpress2/index.php/2018/03/21/indieweb-schon-wieder/ (twitter.com/_/status/976568455636967424)
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schmarty cleverdevil++ thanks for your post about exporting your data. you've encouraged me to start the process of making the leap, as well. feels good to be able to grab so much stuff.
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Loqi cleverdevil has 44 karma in this channel (74 overall)
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schmarty still a lot of content to track down from a private group or two :/
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schmarty (but that's for my personal archives of photos of me, not for posting on my site)
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[cleverdevil] Awesome!
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@7im4pple Interesting I can use twitter from here...cool enough. I wonder if this counts as part of the @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/976570223917707264)
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[cleverdevil] I had a few things that I still wanted to grab, but I figured that I'd moved the vast majority of my content, and anything left would be captured in their "export my data" dump.
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[miklb] can I just tell you how odd it is building a Messenger app in the climate of what is going on around FB. Granted, it will be multiplatform, but it’s still really weird. This is for a local non-profit that fields a ton of the same questions via their FB page.
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[miklb] Messenger app/Messenger bot
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tantek [miklb]: I can only imagine
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tantek I am now struggling with similar issues everytime I have to create a FB Posse event e.g. for a HWC event
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aaronpk 😂 https://herereadthisarticle.wordpress.com/2018/03/21/well-one-thing-about-this-new-posse-solution/
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@JohnL4 http://bit.ly/2DLa5bP …is it slows down my tendency to re-post Tweets. I think. (https://indieweb.org/POSSE) (twitter.com/_/status/976593406909734912)
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tantek lol
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tantek was that a deliberate 3 min delay Loqi?
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tantek "slows down" meta-joke
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tantek what is slow web
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "slow web" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "slow web is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek hmm
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[miklb] is slow web like slow food?
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tantek yes that is how I have seen it used but don't have a reference handy
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[miklb] I like it, even if the food term got over played
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tantek agreed
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sknebel https://jackcheng.com/the-slow-web/ ?
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[kevinmarks] Move slowly and fix things.
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KartikPrabhu [kevinmarks]: i think this is more about posting that coding
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tantek KartikPrabhu: yes
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[kevinmarks] Think slowly and post things?
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[kevinmarks] This is an interesting take https://medium.com/@jamesallworth/what-the-f-was-facebook-thinking-a1c49dbf29c2
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[kevinmarks] Related https://stratechery.com/2013/mobile-makes-facebook-just-an-app-thats-great-news/
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tantek sknebel: yes that's a good post
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tantek ok this is at least worth adding to /timeline as a term/phrase/concept if not at least defining
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tantek lots of overlap with IndieWeb
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tantek also http://www.rebeccablood.net/archive/2010/06/a_slow_web.html
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[kevinmarks] Slow twitter https://twitter.com/DougExeter/status/976541016399364096?s=19
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@DougExeter the best interaction that i have ever had on this web site https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DY1e3P_VMAA4b-J.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/976541016399364096)