#indieweb 2018-05-06

2018-05-06 UTC
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@unoabraham Webmention-faq – IndieWeb https://abraham.link/550/webmention-faq-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/992920855943565313)
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@ChrisAldrich ↩️ I haven't heard the episode yet, but I actually created a pronunciation page this past week for just this eventuality! If you know where Torvalds' original is, it would be great to document. https://indieweb.org/pronunciation (twitter.com/_/status/992928943983513600)
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@unoabraham reply – IndieWeb https://abraham.link/552/reply-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/992935691171622912)
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billbennettnz I know how to put the rel=me link in a header on my home site, but what is the correct form for a link back from a secondary site to the mothership?
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KartikPrabhu billbennettnz: depends on the secondary site
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KartikPrabhu which one are you asking about?
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billbennettnz It's my minor and unimportant business site... which only exists because clients ask why we don't have one. It would be nice to identify though. Its at fridaystreet.co.nz
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KartikPrabhu billbennettnz: you could add a rel-me in the header there too
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billbennettnz with the same form as on the mothership site?
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KartikPrabhu billbennettnz: yes. there is no "directionality" to rel-me
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billbennettnz Ah... that's the bit that confused me... well confused isn't the right word. It's the bit I didn't know.
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@btconf Good morning! Another day with sunshine for everybody who joins us at the @indiewebcamp. Find information about today's activities here: https://beyondtellerrand.com/events/duesseldorf-2018 (twitter.com/_/status/992995888875352064)
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aaronpk Ooh IWC is starting up again just as I'm going to bed
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[eddie] Haha that’s what I just thought!
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@sharonsteed ↩️ @btconf @indiewebcamp Bummed I can’t be there with you guys! I love your conf and hope to make it in the future! 🤗❤️ (twitter.com/_/status/992997114887245824)
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[jeremycherfas] Dgold++
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Loqi dgold has 25 karma in this channel (45 overall)
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@mrkrndvs 📑 The Indieweb privacy challenge https://collect.readwriterespond.com/indieweb-privacy-challenge-greger/ (twitter.com/_/status/993028357146206208)
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@webrocker ↩️ In den Reaktionen zu @sebastiangreger s indieweb ./. gdpr artikel ist ein sehr interessanter Kommentar aufgetaucht https://ascraeus.org/micro/1525556293/ das 'ist noch kein gesetz, woher willst du wissen, dass…' ist so ein bisschen die glas halb leer/voll situation. skeptiker und optimisten (twitter.com/_/status/993029997911859200)
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb! Got out of bed a tad late this Sunday, but ready to sync up with Düsseldorf and have a little hackday of my own
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@derSchepp Finally made it as a guest to Düsseldorf's @indiewebcamp at @sipgateDE, getting to meet old and new friends. #btconf https://t.co/EMxeGTa34c (twitter.com/_/status/993041510605164544)
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swentel hacking away too
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swentel hopefully a new alpha release today of the Drupal plugin
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sknebel Zegnat: DUS hackday *just* kicked off
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sknebel 528 minutes until demos!
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Loqi I added a countdown scheduled for 2018-05-06 7:06pm CEST (#6291)
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sknebel ops, wait
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sknebel !cancel 6291
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Loqi Okay, I cancelled it!
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sknebel 340 minutes until demos
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Loqi I added a countdown scheduled for 2018-05-06 3:59pm CEST (#6292)
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Zegnat sknebel, any idea if it will be possible to do remote demos?
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sknebel if you have something to screenshare with we can open that (didn't appear.in have screeshare in chrome?)
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sknebel or skype?
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Zegnat Right, Skype should be possible!
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Zegnat I’ll keep that in mind in case I finish my token endpoint
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@sl007 ↩️ @EU_Justice @Peter_Schaar Yesterday we talked about GDPR at IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf https://twitter.com/m_ott/status/992740201343672321 (twitter.com/_/status/993075512875642880)
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@sl007 ↩️ @EU_Justice @Peter_Schaar also https://sebastiangreger.net/2018/05/indieweb-privacy-challenge-webmentions-backfeeds-gdpr/ (twitter.com/_/status/993075617016008704)
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@andygrunwald ↩️ Have fun! Will there be a small report afterwards? Can’t be there today, but would love to read what happened. (twitter.com/_/status/993086669673959427)
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@derSchepp ↩️ Not sure, but if there is a summary of the @indiewebcamp, it might come from or get retweeted by @jkphl or @webgefrickel. (twitter.com/_/status/993087510690529280)
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@jkphl Post-lunch chilling in the sun @indiewebcamp Düsseldorf 2018 https://t.co/Njw7GoDuuz (twitter.com/_/status/993089985514532864)
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@stegrainer ↩️ If you find that intriguing, you should also check out Indie Web: https://indieweb.org/ And specifically webmentions: https://indieweb.org/Webmention (twitter.com/_/status/993092578525446149)
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@gorbatov_art Btw, @tenderlove, have you ever heard about http://indieweb.org? (twitter.com/_/status/993095600714416128)
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@sebastiangreger ↩️ @jkphl @indiewebcamp Demos 16:30? (twitter.com/_/status/993103877401653248)
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Zegnat I am going to need to find a way to demo this ... https://github.com/Zegnat/php-mintoken
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Loqi [Zegnat] php-mintoken: A minimal IndieAuth compatible Token Endpoint.
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Zegnat (Also, for anyone who uses Selfauth and has been wondering about a token endpoint ^^^ )
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@jkphl ↩️ Wahrscheinlich schon ein bisschen vorher ... so ab 16:00 hatten wir angepeilt, und dann halt noch die übliche Verzögerung vielleicht. Bis wann schaffst du es? (twitter.com/_/status/993104603230044160)
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@rotozeev ↩️ @ChrisAldrich Wrote a big comment there about IndieWeb. (twitter.com/_/status/993110408780238848)
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@sebastiangreger ↩️ @jkphl @indiewebcamp Krieg' ich hin - ETA 15:45 :) (twitter.com/_/status/993112358577954816)
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schmarty zegnat++ wowow, nice!
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Loqi zegnat has 90 karma in this channel (208 overall)
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Zegnat There is probably room for improvement. But this does work.
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@swentel Sending webmentions on comment replies and creating feeds are the new major goodies in the alpha 6 #indieweb module for #drupal - check the release notes for upgrading - https://www.drupal.org/project/indieweb/releases/8.x-1.0-alpha6. Now back to Indigenous! (twitter.com/_/status/993118702425051136)
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@drupal8modules New #alpha version released for #drupal8 #module indieweb (8.x-1.0-alpha6). More info: https://www.drupal.org/project/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/993120780157374464)
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Zegnat swentel also using IWC hackday well, it looks like! :D
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swentel uhu :)
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Loqi demos
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Loqi Countdown set by sknebel on 2018-05-06 at 10:19am CEST
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Zegnat Ready to read about some demos!
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/hailmika/status/992391607302451200?s=19
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@hailmika I thought you might like this visualization of the terms and conditions of the different apps @pop_stefanija #vk18 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcWu3hxXkAEGmcU.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/992391607302451200)
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sknebel demos!
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Zegnat Demos!
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tantek livestream?
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sknebel no streaming
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sebsel first on is jkphl
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sebsel has been working on a cookie-consent plugin for the CMS he uses. (Typo3)
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sebsel Showing a UI to manage cookies in the backend: you can choose what cookies you use and what kind of cookies they are.
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sebsel So it's a plugin to provide your users an overview of your cookies.
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sebsel Next up / assisting now is Matthias Ott
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sebsel showing a design for a cookie-disclaimer, as would show on the frontend of the site.
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[sebsel] Matthias’ cookie design https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T03QR2B2T-FAJCPP48Y/image_uploaded_from_ios.jpg?pub_secret=ccde10f470&name=Image uploaded from iOS.jpg
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sebsel there are four levels of cookies, starting from strictly necessary, up to third-party cookies.
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sebsel All levels can be turned on and off.
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sebsel Clicking on the popup gives a very detailed overlay of all cookies, their reasons, their category.
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sebsel Even lifetime and origin.
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sebsel Next up is JanSauer.de
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@jkphl Demo time @indiewebcamp Düsseldorf 2018! #btconf https://t.co/1lCAYE2LCj (twitter.com/_/status/993134505862094848)
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tantek sebsel++ for live-scribing the demos!
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Loqi sebsel has 34 karma in this channel (65 overall)
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sebsel Jan was trying to add Microformats to his company's site
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sebsel had trouble finding microformat-parsers that are still online and working
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sebsel eventually found pin13, which works, even though the site is mostly in react.
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sebsel (the URL was clearly a review-URL, so probably not shareable)
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sebsel next up is SebastianLasse.de (sl007)
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Zegnat “had trouble finding microformat-parsers” – in other words, microformats.io isn’t discoverable enough? Good to know!
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sebsel yeah, and there seemed to be a lot of non-working parsers out there, but still listed (?). I will try and ask about that.
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sebsel Sebastian has connection with the beamer now, and shows a page with buttons.
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sebsel shows a few ways he is using Javascript for prototyping
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sebsel like comparing fonts in different sizes and various color combinations
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sebsel now shows the buttons again, which are webcomponents
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sebsel next up is Alexander
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sebsel made a command line tool that takes a bit of text, and generates a piece of HTML marked up with microformats
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sebsel With a parameter he can also post the text to mastodon
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sebsel And it worked!
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jeremycherfas Back just in time to catch up on demos.
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jeremycherfas Sebsel++ for notes.
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Loqi sebsel has 35 karma in this channel (66 overall)
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sebsel next is Vlad, toying around with USB-C and the beamer
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sebsel he wanted to work on a better way to keep track of his national currency
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sebsel wrote a script to scrape the site of the national bank, now shows graphs and tables of the rate-changes
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sknebel next up sebsel
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sknebel working on rewrite of his blog
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sknebel deciding on the storage format
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sknebel (old blog used kirby format, mix of that and Database maybe)
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sknebel discovered that he actually had gotten Aperture to work earlier
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sknebel had to fix his token endpoint, and now can use together to read feeds!
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sebsel :D
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sebsel (It was more an exploration of Microsub, but it's nice that I got things to work today)
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sebsel next up is andreasnebiker.com
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Zegnat tries to catch sebsel’s interest and points at the PHP token endpoint he just released ;)
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sebsel fixed a accessibility issue on the site of his company
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sebsel and he has setup a company blog
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sebsel (as was the plan: a place where employees can syndicate posts from their own blogs)
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sebsel next up Sebastian Greger (who just arrived in time for demo's)
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sebsel He replied to dgold with a lengthy blogpost
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sebsel worked on a way to mark up his comment as a in-reply-to on that reply of dgold
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sebsel now shows a 'hard coded' quote on top of the reply
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sebsel which shows the post he's replying on
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sebsel also looked up an IP-anonymiser
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sebsel he also created a cron-job that deletes IP- and e-mail addresses from his server after 14 days
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sebsel next up sknebel
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sebsel Ah, no, next up is Zegnat
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Zegnat Hahaha
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Loqi Zegnat: lol
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Zegnat hopes sknebel does a Dutch accent
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sebsel (no, no Dutch accent, says sknebel, and I confirm :P )
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sebsel Shows the hosted token endpoint Zegnat has been working on
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sebsel Now for sknebel himself: he's been working on an innoreader-to-microsub-bridge
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sebsel now shows alltogethernow.io which is connected to innoreader
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sebsel he uses the notifications-channel to show a message, how to set it up
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sebsel then an OAuth-flow, and we see his posts from Innoreader in Together!
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sebsel next up is CalumRyan.com
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sebsel He has a new input field for tags, so he can easier tag posts
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sebsel they show up as 'category' in the microformats.
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sebsel And he even has a /tags?tag=cycling overview with all the tagged posts
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sebsel as a second thing, he wrote a privacy policy, informing visitors what he tracks and what he isn't tracking.
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sebsel next up is MiriamSuzanne.com
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sebsel she made a banner that would only show up on newer browsers
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sebsel and suggest to visitors to downgrade to Netscape
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sebsel broke a few other CSS things on her site too
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sebsel now shows fancy CSS things she experimented with
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sebsel next up is Steffen aka webgefrickel.de
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sebsel had a successfull day of switching around with plans
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sebsel got rid of anything cookie or GDPR-related on his site
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sebsel no more tracking, Google Analytics, anything
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sebsel he only has one session-cookie he really needs
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sebsel wrote a blogpost too
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sebsel And there is Joschi again.
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sebsel Stating that it's exactly 17 o'clock, which marks the end of IWC Düsseldorf.
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sebsel applause for Joschi
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aaronpk 🕔
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sebsel thanks to Sipgate for the hosting and the food
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jeremycherfas Applause.
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sebsel And that was it :)
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jeremycherfas Just too late, managed to get this far https://www.dropbox.com/s/8mx7f8rns70ji4a/first-response.png?dl=0
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jeremycherfas If that works.
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tantek jkphl++
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Loqi jkphl has 38 karma in this channel (43 overall)
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Zegnat That does look like a somewhat logical response to a browser GET request jeremycherfas :)
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Zegnat jkphl++
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Loqi jkphl has 39 karma in this channel (44 overall)
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jeremycherfas It is a very first step.
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dgold sebsel: thanls for he headsup on a reply by sebastian
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dgold my reply to his reply to my reply is up!
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dgold https://ascraeus.org/micro/1525621286/
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Loqi [Daniel Goldsmith] Hi again Sebastian, Thank you for providing the links and information in your followup. I’ve had a long careful look at them, and offer the following response. Firstly, I can’t see that the German Telemedia Act, even as initially produced, is i...
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tantek interesting discussion going on between dgold and sgreger!
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tantek dgold, based on the background / reasoning you give in that post, I also doubt that just including a few minimal ads or affiliate links would make a personal site "commercial". especially if you're not earning much from it - you're not actually doing "commerce" by any reasonable definition
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aaronpk that's true, but there is plenty of precedent for such ads being considered commercial activity
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tantek like gift giving is not considered commerce or commercial
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tantek aaronpk - only when a blog is the author's primary source of income
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tantek and such blogs look *very different*
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tantek and often have paid options like patronage etc.
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aaronpk that isn't always the case. I've had problems with ads on my site before
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tantek problems?
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tantek including one ad or an affiliate link is unlikely to have anyone reasonable conclude that a site is not personal
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aaronpk affiliate links might be different
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tantek but yes if your blog is mostly ads and such then that starts to look like an attempt at a money making enterprise
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tantek I disagree with the absolutist thinking that you must have zero ads to be personal
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aaronpk I used to host my website on a server in my dorm room at college, and I had google ads on it. At one point I got a letter from the IT department saying I had to take down the ads or move the site elsewhere.
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aaronpk it wasn't about personal vs commercial, it was about commercial use on my personal site
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tantek was it on a .edu ?
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aaronpk no, it was aaronparecki.com but hosted out of my dorm room
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aaronpk an IP address owned by the college
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tantek on their ISP? yes education institutions often have their own weird rules
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tantek aaronpk OTOH all colleges I know allowed usenet groups that had plenty of for sale etc. stuff
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tantek plenty of commerce on their internets
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aaronpk i'm just saying I have personal experience with ads on my website being considered commercial use
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tantek or rather violating their rules
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tantek that does not mean = commercial use per se
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aaronpk violating their rules of commercial use
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aaronpk it was very explicitly about commercial use
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tantek interesting
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tantek did they care about affiliate links?
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aaronpk I don't think I had any at that time
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aaronpk was trying to dig up the email, if it was even sent to me in email. that was before I was using gmail tho!
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aaronpk it may have been a physical letter they mailed to me tho
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tantek I wonder if their rules are still online
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aaronpk https://it.uoregon.edu/acceptable-use-policy
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GWG https://david.shanske.com/2018/05/06/privacy/
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GWG I shouldn't write long form on a phone
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tantek GWG, not at all - I thought it was very readable and to the point!
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tantek aaronpk "Note: While chain letters may or may not be considered a commercial use of computing resources per se, you may not use university computing resources to transmit or propagate chain letters." 😂
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tantek but what about the memes? 😂
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aaronpk wow haha
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Zegnat GWG++ Nice one. And, I think, that is exactly the thinking sgreger wanted to cause. “Ethical design” etc! How you personally are going to keep archives is one question, giving other people the tools to manage data ethically is the other. You seem to know where you stand on both!
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Loqi gwg has 232 karma in this channel (342 overall)
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GWG Zegnat, I just imagined a Ken Burns documentary without the historic letters.
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GWG On the archives front. Either way, pfefferle should expect PRs. Syndication project on pause
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@jkphl Thanks for an awesome @indiewebcamp Düsseldorf 2018 — and thanks again to @sipgate for being the best host ever! On a side note: who forgot this MacBook power piwer connector? You can pick it up at the #btconf warmup @InVisionDE! (twitter.com/_/status/993165241948270592)
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dgold tantek: while _I_ might agree with what you're saying viz advertising, DPAs are a different story
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dgold the consensus would appear to be that having advertising _qua_ adverts on a site makes a site a commercial activity
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tantek yeah, it's unfortunate
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tantek it's also one of many reasons why I don't put ads on my site
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dgold note that affiliate linking (rather oddly) does not appear to be considered commercial activity
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dgold once its not the raison d'etre of the site, that it
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dgold s/that it/that is
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Zegnat dgold, but surely you still have to disclose said affiliate links per trade commision guidelines, if your national trade commision has said guidelines in the books?
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Zegnat seems to recall some YouTube centric debate about that
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tantek dgold that seems consistent with what others are saying (affiliate links != commercial)
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dgold Zegnat: that may be so, but its not germane to whether a site is commercial or private
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Zegnat True
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GWG Is rel=disclosure appropriate for a privacy policy link? Or do we have something else?
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Zegnat What is disclosure?
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Loqi A disclosure is a bit of content, typically on a home page, on an indie web site that proactively discloses some aspect about the site that the site owner wants the user to explicitly be aware of https://indieweb.org/disclosure
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GWG So, is that rel-disclosure? Which is a thing apparently
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Zegnat No, that seems to just be about the type of content, not how to mark it up
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Zegnat I was just hoping we had a page with markup examples already
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Zegnat It looks like rel-disclosure was proposed specifically for patents, GWG. (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yevstifeyev-disclosure-relation-02 via http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values)
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GWG So how do I mark up a link to my disclosure or privacy policy so that it is known to consumers?
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Zegnat Not sure anyone has been doing that yet on the IndieWeb? Maybe time to set your own standard! Ha
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Zegnat I know rel-license and the like were discussed previously, on the subject of “how do I know if I can safely repost something”
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Zegnat But that is a different problem
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GWG I prefer Microformats. u-privacy ?
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GWG Or u-disclosure
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Zegnat But scoped to what? To an h-feed? To every h-entry?
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GWG I would think that it might be in the home page if not every page
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Zegnat Yes, but all mf2 properties are part of an mf2 object (h-*). And I do not think anyone is doing h-page on their html elements ;) (This might be quickly feering into #dev talk!)
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GWG Possibly dev talk
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GWG So let's steer to the theoretical
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GWG Should consumers of Indieweb pages be able to identify the privacy policy?
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tantek more important than what rel value or microformats is what link text
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tantek start with user consumers
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GWG I am working that out concurrently
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tantek I don't know of any machine consumers of any privacy policy or disclosure etc.
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tantek so don't worry about it until there are some
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tantek I'd say research and document the *user visible* aspects
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tantek and procrastinate on any / all format issues until then
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GWG tantek, was wondering if there should be, so that I would have some idea whether someone I was talking to wouldn't want me to show their conversation
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GWG But I will have a privacy policy update for all of my stuff this week
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GWG I am committing to it.
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tantek "whether someone I was talking to" --> you have to just read their website
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GWG Yes, but my code works without me a lot
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tantek GWG, there be dragons that way
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tantek more in dev
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GWG I like to write my thoughts on my site before the wiki sometimes
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tantek GWG++
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Loqi gwg has 233 karma in this channel (343 overall)
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@huffduffer This Week in the IndieWeb Audio Edition • April 29th - May 5th, 2018 https://huffduffer.com/schmarty/475505 (twitter.com/_/status/993186264689074176)
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@schmarty Syndication setbacks, WordPress wisdom, and GDPR wrangling. It's your ~10min update on the #IndieWeb community! This Week in the IndieWeb audio edition for April 29th - May 5th, 2018. https://martymcgui.re/2018/05/06/134816/ (twitter.com/_/status/993186357056098304)
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@schmarty Syndication setbacks, WordPress wisdom, and GDPR wrangling. It's your < 10min update on the #IndieWeb community! This Week in the IndieWeb audio edition for April 28th - May 4th, 2018. https://martymcgui.re/2018/05/06/134816/ (twitter.com/_/status/993186680264896512)
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GWG Just released Syndication Links 3.4.1, the first one to incorporate new WordPress Privacy stuff.
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GWG Going to be going through each plugin and added such
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KartikPrabhu what is Wordpress Privacy?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Wordpress Privacy" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Wordpress Privacy is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: It will be released next week. As soon as someone over there writes a blog post..
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GWG In the meantime.. https://indieweb.org/disclosure
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GWG The link is under See Also.
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KartikPrabhu that does not seem to say what it is
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KartikPrabhu anyway
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I had to plug through the code to understand it. They are still working on the blog post
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GWG Just getting ahead of it
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schmarty GWG: oops, i read your link on /disclosure and assumed this feature was already in WP from the text there. i announced it in TWITIWAE as if it was already out there, haha.
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GWG schmarty: tantek put the link there when I mentioned it. https://make.wordpress.org/core/2018/05/03/wordpress-4-9-6-beta/
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GWG The official release is set for the 15th, they want people to test these features, but no one wrote a guide to it
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GWG The Make post I just linked to goes through all the tickets, but no one explained it.
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schmarty that makes sense!
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GWG I'm surprised they didn't put something out so people wouldn't have to plow through the code to get it. They have tickets about a privacy policy, anonymizing data, personal data export, opt-in commenter cookies...
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GWG I am just adding the code for displaying a suggested privacy statement, since it shouldn't hurt anything.
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GWG Interestingly enough, they forgot about Pingbacks and Trackbacks
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KooBaa You can find my todays project under https://github.com/Kulbartsch/gopost (I renamed it from formerly xpost). It's also mentioned under https://indieweb.org/projects#gopost - hope that's ok there.
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Loqi [Kulbartsch] gopost: Crosspostings to several social media services at once
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tantek Welcome KooBaa!
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tantek even better would it's own page, where you could list all those details (and potentially more)
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tantek e.g.
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tantek what is gopost?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "gopost" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "gopost is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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KooBaa Hi tantek! Ok, I'll add some infos. But I thought not to make a own page in indieweb.org, because I will describe more on the github page ... and I fear the indieweb page would be outdated tosoon.
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tantek It's totally ok to have a minimal page about it on the indieweb wiki
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tantek to avoid that problem
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tantek you can even answer the question with "gopost is ..." and a one sentence description
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tantek (here in IRC)
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tantek and that will create a stub page
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tantek KooBaa, since it is work in progress - I'm going to move it down to the Experimental section - the top main sections are for projects that are ready for anyone to use
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KooBaa :) gopost is a tool to make posts to several social networks at once and also generates a web html snippet to embed in your (static) website.
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KooBaa I can create a page for it.
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tantek I think I saw you did?
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tantek KooBaa are you Wolkenbruch.net?
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KooBaa yes, that's me too.
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tantek Then your user page is /User:Wolkenbruch.net
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tantek I'll move your AlexK page there
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KooBaa hmmm - kulbartsch.de is me as well, also alice-and-bob.de
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tantek have you signed-in with them?
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tantek you can see your contributions here: https://indieweb.org/Special:Contributions/Wolkenbruch.net
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KooBaa ah - I understand, I used Wolkenbruch.net .
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tantek yes exactly. and if you want you can list your various domains on your User: page
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tantek I added dfn markup to the /gopost page so now anyone can ask
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tantek what is gopost?
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Loqi gopost is a tool to make posts to several social networks at once and also generates a web HTML snippet to embed in your (static) website https://indieweb.org/gopost
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tantek and Loqi will answer ^^^
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KooBaa that's cool!
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Webmention for ProcessWire Update" https://gregorlove.com/2018/05/webmention-for-processwire-update/
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@khurtwilliams Fogknife : I believe in the IndieWeb. It needs to believe in itself. (7 minute read) http://fogknife.com/2018-05-04-i-believe-in-the-indieweb-it-needs-to-believe-in-itself.html (twitter.com/_/status/993234223472566273)
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@gRegorLove Webmention for @processwire plugin updated to 2.0.0! https://gregorlove.com/2018/05/webmention-for-processwire-update/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/993243661365211136)
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gRegorLove Does anyone here pay for a Feedly subscription? I'd like to get a bug report through to them, but they basically ignore free users.
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gRegorLove Just found an email address they gave someone on Twitter for support, so will try that.
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