#indieweb 2018-05-17

2018-05-17 UTC
snarfed, Anchakor, KartikPrabhu, eli_oat, wolftune, [xavierroy] and [wiobyrne] joined the channel
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@grantcodes Hmm, looks like my new inline micropub browser extension is just about ready for testing! #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/996933018270003201)
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@Kraft ↩️ Not WordPress exclusively but compatible: http://micro.blog . It isn't a drop-in replacement quite either but def have the indieweb at heart. (twitter.com/_/status/996949022702231552)
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pstuifzand !tell skippy I use nginx-proxy as the thing to bring everything together. My microsub server runs on microsub subdomain and /microsub path.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb
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petermolnar what is domain?
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Loqi A personal domain is a domain name that you personally own, control, and use to represent yourself on the internet https://indieweb.org/domain
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petermolnar shall I add this to criticism for domain? https://www.uptimechecker.io/blog/how-domain-registrar-can-kill-your-business
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petermolnar I had interesting experiences with registrars myself, one of them really didn't want to give me the number required for a .eu domain to be transferred, because I didn't specify a reason
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petermolnar but nowhere near as bad as the one in the article
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Zegnat Probably?
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Zegnat Jeena and I also talked about the weakness of domains for a bit on the podcast.
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dgold Zegnat: you haz a podcast?
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Zegnat Jeena haz. He invited me to come on to talk about Indieweb for an episode. You got name dropped to, dgold ;)
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Zegnat https://jeena.net/pods/17
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Loqi [Jeena] The IndieWeb - Martijn https://jeena.net/system/pods/photos/000/000/017/original/martijn.jpg?1526323119
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dgold then I shall have to listen!
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Zegnat Or not... Haha. I hope I was somewhat coherent in my enthusiastic talking. I love talking about IndieWeb
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petermolnar the deeper you dig into domains, the worse it looks, but nobody was able to come up with any alternative that has the same benefits without the issues (root servers, registrars, ICANN, can only be rented, can be confiscated, etc)
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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jeremycherfas I just promoted zegnat and jeena to the top of my podcast queue, but it will take a couple of walks to get through.
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jgmac1106 Will listen in on may to work…but it is audible crdit day for me
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[jgmac1106] mornign all
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[kimberlyhirsh] Follow up to my conversation with [jgmac1106] about where all the librarians are - you're right, it IS Facebook. They're gathering in groups - I found one for the Comics & Graphic Novels interest group, one for the Game Round Table, and one for Teen Librarians. The American Library Association launches the new version of their own social software today. I'll be interested to see if people come back to it. (It was a ghost town for the past fe
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "📺 Domain of One’s Own: Reclaim Your Data" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmr9pP8gRhA (from https://collect.readwriterespond.com/republica-2018-jim-groom-domain-of-ones-own-reclaim-your-data/)
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jgmac1106 [kimberlyhirsh] It is the same for almost every professional teaching and research organization over the last five years. They have all migrated from listservs to facebook. I have been part of major social newotk building efforts of NCTE, ILA, and the Litracy Reseacrh Association, all failed
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jgmac1106 [wiobyrne] and I spent three years rebuilding the Literacy Research Association website in Drupal using only open media, and created publishing pathways for conference materials to be openly liscened. Board rejected our efforts and with a a pid page builder and we now have a broken listserv
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cweiske what is a pid page builder
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pid page builder" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "pid page builder is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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jgmac1106 All of the efforts to create new silos as “member beniftis” is wrong. I don’t think anything will chnage until we get open advocates into leadership positions
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jgmac1106 It was typo. Paid page builder. They use a service called memberclicks. http://www.memberclicks.com/ It is lame. I treid to expalin they are spending $1,000s on basically a database that probably cost pennies a month to run
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jgmac1106 I want to move to a membership recruitment model where professors, teaxhers, librarians are encouraged to work in the open and people join to support their org and not because its the only way to get on an emaillistserv
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[kimberlyhirsh] Yes!
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[kimberlyhirsh] I have seen a lot of disenchantment with ALA and attempts to change it thwarted.
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[jgmac1106] I will try to write about this today. Need to do some writing and less coding
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[jgmac1106] Also brings me back to [chrisaldrich] from Ghost. Something is bothering it about me. Came off that Open Source will always be a tool of the elite
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[jgmac1106] Need to think on it for a while
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jeremycherfas Jeena++ for great interview with zegnat
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Loqi jeena has 41 karma in this channel (51 overall)
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jeremycherfas Zegnat++ for great interview with jeena
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Loqi zegnat has 92 karma in this channel (217 overall)
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Zegnat Not too incoherent? :P
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jeremycherfas Not at all. Really very good indeed. Both of you were really good at pretending to know less than you actually know, which is really important.
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cweiske why is that important?
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jeremycherfas Because it encourages people who want to know more to listen. If you already know everything about a topic, that's fine. If you know very little, people who assume you know more can be offputting.
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cweiske Jeena pretended that Zegnat knew less than he actually knows
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cweiske and the other way round?
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cweiske so that it's easier for the listener?
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jeremycherfas Yes. Most of the time. So, for example, although both of them know perfectly well how OAuth works, they asked one another questions about rel-me and redirects and stuff like that, which made it a lot easier for someone like me to stay with them and learn new things.
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cweiske ok
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jeremycherfas The discussion about domains, and what you really "own" was good too.
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Zegnat Glad you liked it. Jeena also really wanted the audience to be his podcast audience, and not indieweb-folks or programmers per se, so that definitely came through in the questions and answers
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jeremycherfas And for people who are not indieweb folks or programmers, if they're in the least bit interested, it will start them exploring.
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schmarty Agree that the Jeena + Zegnat interview was a truly excellent encounter!
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jgmac1106 [cweiske] It is the Golden rule of writing (and podcasting) assume your audience knows nothing. Define all key terms, use real life metaphors when possible. Goal should be to always reduce the inferential reasoning required
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jgmac1106 or let people know who your intended audience is if you are going to assume some level of knowledge (like dev documentation)
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jgmac1106 Going to listen today and it takes a lot to make me sit on an Audible credit
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skippy morning.
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Loqi skippy: pstuifzand left you a message 8 hours, 41 minutes ago: I use nginx-proxy as the thing to bring everything together. My microsub server runs on microsub subdomain and /microsub path.
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Loqi good morning!
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skippy pstuifzand: thanks. you around for additional questions?
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@jgmac1106 Day 4 of IndieWeb WordPress Only: https://jgregorymcverry.com/day-4-of-indieweb-wordpress-only/ (twitter.com/_/status/997114751548305409)
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jmac Howdy gang. I see that https://indieweb.org/nofollow exists, and seems to pooh-pooh the notion of using rel="nofollow" at all, relegating it as something only greedy silos do. However...
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jmac When I describe Webmention to technically apt friends, they insist that of course I'll wanna add rel="nofollow" to any mentions I publish on my own site, in order to discourage being used as a link-farm. And that makes sense to me, too.
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jmac What's our thoughts on this?
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Zegnat My thoughts: if people are spamming to your page, that should be caught in moderation and not be automatically be added on your page at all. If a comment is ontopic, why add nofollow?
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jmac So the answer is "You really shouldn't publish webmentions without moderation"?
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cweiske spammers spam without looking first if links are nofollowed.
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Zegnat I mean, it depends. But if you are pulling in replies and displaying them as comments below your own posts, you should treat these as comments. Imagine you are running WordPress with native comments, are you moderating those? If the answer is yes, maybe consider some form of moderation for webmentions too.
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petermolnar is nofollow still even relevant with today's search engines?
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cweiske yes
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Zegnat This issue of moderating and spam filtering webmentions comes up every once in a while. But I am not sure anyone is actually building something to address it, because webmentions simply haven’t reached that critical mass yet.
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jmac I agree 100% that comments need to be tended. But, like, what about weaponized likes?
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jmac On the third hand, maybe facepiles need moderation too. (I know this has come up here before, with e.g. offensive user avatars.)
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Zegnat Yep, definitely.
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petermolnar jmac: as a first step, I suggest documenting these on the wiki, like we did with many potential, existing, or pure theoretical problems
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petermolnar (regarding webmentions)
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jmac I feel called to help think about wm moderation somehow, because I want to think about repsonses to my blog as letters to the editor, and (re-)publish them with at least a modicum of editorial mindfulness. But currently, I ain't doing that at all and just printing whatever I'm fed, wheee (which is not awesome)
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petermolnar is there a page on the wiki already collecting these (spam, offensive avatars, p-name used for spam/offense, etc) regarding either webmention or pingback/trackback?
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Zegnat Hmm
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Zegnat What is webmention-brainstorm?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "webmention-brainstorm" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "webmention-brainstorm is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat Apparently not
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petermolnar there has to be one somewhere
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Zegnat What is Webmention-brainstorming?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/Webmention-brainstorming
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petermolnar though it might be in pieces
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Zegnat Probably that page?
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petermolnar ah
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petermolnar that's better
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petermolnar [jgmac1106]: would you mind adding your finds to https://indieweb.org/Webmention-brainstorming#Issues ?
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jmac petermolnar: Do you mean me?
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Zegnat Or jmac ;)
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Zegnat Aah, jmac beat me to it, hehe
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petermolnar eh, sorry
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Zegnat Too many similar usernames
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petermolnar I was thinking of the twitter link just a little above, which was from [jgmac1106]
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jmac And, sure.
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jgmac1106 [petermolnar] my issues were more with micropub. According to webmentions.rocks (atleast first three tests) my Known site works, I don’t know why webmentions from Twitter stopped but that might be because I was a paid convoy user
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jgmac1106 ohh you meant [jmac] sorry
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petermolnar yes, sorry, brain untangled
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jgmac1106 ain’t the first time . won’t be the last
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jmac sorry everyone
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jmac Anyway. I guess my first stab at thinking about this with my hands would involve replacing my completely naive webmention-publishing crontask with a simple manual moderation tool.
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jmac And then sharing how that works, if it works.
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[jgmac1106] that is one advantage of WordPress. I get to moderate every webmention
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jmac jgmac1106: I'd love to see an example of what that tool looks like (without having to install wordpress, ha ha)
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jgmac1106 sure give me a webmention on this post: https://jgregorymcverry.com/day-4-of-indieweb-wordpress-only/
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[jgmac1106] https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T03QR2B2T-FASLC6WSK/screenshot_2018-05-17_10.38.28.png?pub_secret=3a31c7a9d8&name=Screenshot 2018-05-17 10.38.28.png
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[jgmac1106] but that is what the interface looks like
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[jgmac1106] No webmention on my site, now the real question would be could askimet detect webmention spam?>
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jmac I've been wondering that myself
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Zegnat Yes, somewhat: https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-04-29#t1525012305073700
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Loqi [Zegnat] GWG, does askismet et al cover the webmentions WordPress pulls in?
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Zegnat Read on in the logs for his answer ;)
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jmac I could see expanding these Wordpress verbs of approve/disapprove/trash/spam with "always allow source" and "always deny source". (And then you'd need to be able to tend to your allow/deny lists whenever you'd like, of course...)
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petermolnar [jgmac1106]: webmentions become comments in the WP ecosystem, so yes, akismet should be able to catch them
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jgmac1106 haven’t had a spam comment yet, but critical mass
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petermolnar I was tempted to set up some attack test for webmentions, maybe it's time
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petermolnar spam, amplification, etc.
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jmac I'd love to see Webmention spam end up a Y2K-type problem. :) (We work hard to prevent it before it arrives, so it never arrives, leaving all to wonder forever if the work was even worth doing)
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Zegnat Having some sort of anti-spam already developed would help convince the people who keep pointing at pingback spam
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petermolnar Y2k is Y2038, it will come, just not when we though it will ;)
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skippy https://twitter.com/rtushnet/status/997136529624584193
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@rtushnet GDPR joke from a mailing list: Can you recommend me a GDPR expert? - Yes! Can you give me their email address? - No! (twitter.com/_/status/997136529624584193)
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skippy thought folks here might get a kick out of that.
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[manton] That's good.
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[chrisaldrich] On the issue of Webmention and Akismet, I know GWG was talking to their team a year or more ago to be able to better filter it, but don't know where it got/ended up.
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snarfed nice facepile design: https://www.thorsten-konigorski.de/journal/17-05-2018/
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Loqi [Thorsten Konigorski] Cho­r­or­gel in St. Remi­gius, 9 Regis­ter, I+P, Mar­tin Scholz, Zustand 2018 Die Vor­be­rei­tun­gen zur Reno­vie­rung der Remi­gius­kir­che neh­men sehr geo­me­tri­sche For­men an. Der ein­pa­ckende Orgel­bauer, Hart­mut, tr... https://www.thorsten-konigorski.de/site/assets/files/1866/fullsizeoutput_cf3.jpeg
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KartikPrabhu just got an email from twitter titled "Articles from Twitter to help you become a better marketer"
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gRegorLove Ooh, yeah. I like when you hover, the icon above changes whether it's a like or a comment
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gRegorLove I'm also excited to have at least one other user of the ProcessWire Webmention plugin :)
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gRegorLove Thorsten helped motivate me to get the new release out and fix some bugs.
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snarfed gRegorLove++
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Loqi gregorlove has 116 karma in this channel (233 overall)
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@klandwehr As someone who is discovering or should I say rediscovering the Indieweb I often find myself feeling like a stranger in a strange land. Where people are speaking a language where the words are familiar, but the meanings are not. I find myself doing ... http://www.kimlosey.me/2018/05/17/190621.html (twitter.com/_/status/997192337062268928)
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[jgmac1106] Just listened to Jeena's podcast.it was a great listen. Bonus: I won't misspell @sknebel anymore after hearing it. Such a good #indieweb 101 podcast
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Zegnat Nice that people here are liking the talk. I hope Jeena’s usual listeners will also like it :D
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gRegorLove Good reminder to define things in human-friendly, what's-this-do-for-me terms: http://www.kimlosey.me/2018/05/17/190621.html
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Loqi As someone who is discovering or should I say rediscovering the Indieweb I often find myself feeling like a stranger in a strange land. Where people are speaking a language where the words are familiar, but the meanings are not. I find myself doing ...
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dgold yeah, I'm really enjoying it thus far
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sknebel good morning indieweb!
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Zegnat Hellow sknebel :)
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sknebel woah, lots of backlog today
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dansup I announced my federated instagram project today! https://pixelfed.org/
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@rivermacleod IndieWeb Camp Düsseldorf: https://river.cat/2018/05/iwc-d%C3%BCsseldorf-blog (twitter.com/_/status/997236702711336960)
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