#indieweb 2018-08-16

2018-08-16 UTC
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tantek__ whoa
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gRegorLove https://twitter.com/mcclure111/status/1029782071286345728
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@mcclure111 Twitter's moderation is entirely based on "wait for a report, ban it if matches some keyword". Every bigoted group has figured out the trick by now where if you want to ban someone you search for the keywords and report those tweets only https://twitter.com/l1quidcryst4l/status/1029780531276382208 (twitter.com/_/status/1029782071286345728)
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/girlziplocked/status/1029909564819496962?s=19
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@girlziplocked Overheard this today between a teenager and her dad: “Why did you delete your Twitter account?” “I dunno. I just did.” “Were you being bullied?” “No. I just...all the people on there say the exact same stuff as everyone else on there and like I get it, we’re all gonna die.” (twitter.com/_/status/1029909564819496962)
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@sl007 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/1029993834133041153)
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[kevinmarks] Good thread on twitter direction https://twitter.com/alexandraerin/status/1029996028588478469?s=19
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@alexandraerin Earlier in the summer there was one of those Communal Sportsball Moments where people came together to celebrate the sports, and the Twitter People made a big deal out of "Twitter is so great for this but it's a shame you have to follow the right accounts to even see it." (twitter.com/_/status/1029996028588478469)
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/socialistdogmom/status/1029933010127339525?s=19
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@socialistdogmom the most reliable way to get in touch with me is to first contact someone i see IRL on a regular basis and hope that person shames me into responding to you on one of the many platforms i have muted. (twitter.com/_/status/1029933010127339525)
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@omgmog @t Hey Tantek! Your avatar (http://tantek.com/logo.jpg) used inline on https://indieweb.org/Why_web_sign-in (and possibly other pages?) is causing mixed content warnings as it's not served over HTTPS! (twitter.com/_/status/1030019155049762816)
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb
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[jgmac1106] morning
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Loqi rise and shine!
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sknebel morning
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skippy ahoy hoy
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@miklb ↩️ @shep I would wait a few weeks on the WP stuff. The state of the WP #indieweb plugins isn’t stable IMO (twitter.com/_/status/1030066692989308928)
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[jgmac1106] got sick of seeing the same list of thirty white education bloggers on every "must follow" list of the last ten years...so I am making this: https://opendefenderfolks.glitch.me/ if you know of #indieweb folks, marginalized peoples or classes, who should be on the list of "must follow" you can add here: https://glitch.com/edit/#!/join/5366b6e4-0fa7-45c7-9e3a-af64143a042d
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[kevinmarks] if I tagged the people I follow more that could be useful
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[kevinmarks] I follow thousands on twitter and dip in randomly, and use nuzzel to extract things
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[kevinmarks] if you make a twitter list, nuzzel will give you a feed of what links they're sharing
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[kevinmarks] eg https://nuzzel.com/kevinmarks/activitystreams
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[kevinmarks] (I made that list ~10 years ago the first time we were doing as)
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skippy shudders at the notion of following thousands of people on Twitter.
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[jgmac1106] ...never thought about using @nuzzel that way...always said if they have their own url in their twitter feed nuzzel should also share what my followers write as well as read
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[jgmac1106] @skippy I do as well, but never look at my feed, just havd 57.34 columns in tweetdeck, follow ideas not people
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skippy micro.blog's lack of displaying replies makes it hard to follow answers to questions people ask. I see people on the m.b discover feed asking questions I'd like to see answers to, but I dont have any clean way to find those answers, so far as I cna tell.
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[kevinmarks] hm, now I am wondering about a mapping from nuzzel classes to h-feed
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skippy jgmac1106: i follow people, and enjoy being introduced to new ideas surruptiously.
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[kevinmarks] I do that too, but on twitter I just add people to the soup
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[jgmac1106] @skippy its just once you pass a couple hundred it is impossible, have to follow lists or hashtags at that point
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[kevinmarks] I had a custom twitter client that looked for certain people and keywords at one point
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[kevinmarks] though that is harder to do now
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[jgmac1106] use tags explorer..until Twitter shuts it down...not a client but great way to archive tweets using users and/or keywords
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[jgmac1106] @skippy I agree I wish on microblog the <conversation> button had some indicator that there are aor are not replies attached
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[jgmac1106] [kevinmarks] figure out a way to crawl /chat-names and spit out an rss feed of every site posted there, that would be even cooler
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[kevinmarks] i thought someone did that
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[kevinmarks] hm, nuzzel pages are much less good when logged out
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aaronpk that's also what https://stream.indieweb.org/ is supposed to be, tho i haven't automated it yet
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[kevinmarks] This is what a nuzzel story looks like to me when logged in
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jgmac1106 i forgot about that [aaronpk]
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skippy i have an odd question for the folks here: has anyone drafted an incident response plan for use at a conference? It's one thing to have a code of coduct, but an actual plan for dealing with harassment, abuse, stalking, etc?
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aaronpk -> meta
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skippy feel free to hit me up privately.
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jeremycherfas I know it is late for me, but good morning IndieWeb in any case
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Zegnat Done with your daily podcasting duties for today, jeremycherfas?
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jeremycherfas You guessed it.
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@kimberlyhirsh Some quick thoughts on my IndieWeb implementation. http://khirsh.us/b/1hd (twitter.com/_/status/1030105198340005888)
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skippy https://frankmcpherson.blog/2018/08/16/does-owning-your.html
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Loqi Does owning your own domain = owning your content? I am not so sure.
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aaronpk i would say it's the first step towards owning your content
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aaronpk or a prerequisite
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skippy can the inverse be true? can you own your own content wihthout owning your own domain?
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skippy like ... posting photos to Flickr, perhaps?
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aaronpk at that point it depends what you mean by "own"
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skippy totally rhetorical question. not actually looking for answers here.
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aaronpk in the copyright sense, you always own anything you make, regardless of where you distribute it, unless it is a work for hire
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aaronpk but we are typically concerned with ownership of the access to that content, in which case uploading to flickr or instagram you lose the ownership of that access because now they control it and can take it away at any time
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skippy so too can micro.blog, though, if you're using a custom domain...
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aaronpk of course
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aaronpk which is why the answer to owning your content starts with using your own domain
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snarfed (and reasonably portable access to the data itself)
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snarfed (but agreed, domain is the most important part)
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skippy i dont follow. if i use my own domain on micro.blog, i'm still SOL if they stop hosting my data. I'm still on the hook to get all my stuff online in some other fashion, even if the domain name remains the same
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aaronpk yes, that's the second part of owning your content
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aaronpk with your own domain, at least you have a path to restoring your content in a way that everyone can still find in the original location
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aaronpk without your own domain, you're completely SOL
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skippy right. okay.
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snarfed are there any critical pillars beyond those two? domain, data access? are those the two primaries, and the rest is secondary, optional, not quite as important, etc?
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snarfed (just checking. i suspect yes.)
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Zegnat With the domain you own not just the content, but also the place. So if the (to others invisible) physical location of your photos (on Flickr servers) changes (now on 500px servers) the location is effectively unchanged...
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Zegnat Not sure that came out right
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aaronpk i would say there are varying degrees within the data access part, such as how easy is it to move that data elsewhere, e.g. structured/standard data formats
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snarfed oh sure. domain is black and white, data access is gray and complicated. judgment calls. ...but still....?
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snarfed not sure we state that those two are the key, core building blocks anywhere, at least not so clearly and standalone...?
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aaronpk what is own your data?
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Loqi own your data is one of the principles of the IndieWeb and is an encouragement to always post content directly to your own domain with permalinks that you control instead of posting to silos (or only posting copies of your posts to silos per POSSE, and if so, preferably both automatically & with permashortlinks back to your original posts) https://indieweb.org/own_your_data
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aaronpk well that seems like that sentence could be shortened
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snarfed and also only really addresses domain
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aaronpk anyone want to take a stab at summarizing those two points at the top of that page?
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snarfed damn, i have to go in 60s. maybe later!
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aaronpk how convenient 🤔😉
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snarfed lol yes
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snarfed quite so
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sknebel there's also ownership for yourself (e.g.
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sknebel what is PASTA?
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Loqi PASTA is an acronym/abbreviation for Publish Anywhere, Save To (private) Archive, the practice of automatically saving a copy of whatever you post on (social media) silos to someplace else under your own control, like a private directory on your own server, or a local folder on your laptop that is less vulnerable to site-death https://indieweb.org/PASTA
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aaronpk that seems like just the second aspect
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sknebel own the data vs own the space where the data is vs own the pointer to the place with the data
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sknebel maybe
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[kevinmarks] interesting: https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2018/08/twitters-secret-guest-mode/
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sknebel https://techcrunch.com/2018/08/16/twitter-company-email-addresses-why-its-breakingmytwitter/
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skippy more and more justification to just walk away from Twitter.
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@ChrisAldrich ↩️ Let me know if you need help finding resources. I see you have a Hugo site and I'm pretty sure someone has set it up for Webmention use before. https://indieweb.org/Hugo https://boffosocko.com/2018/08/16/reply-to-kartik-singhal-about-webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/1030134204284059648)
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[chrisaldrich] Some additional context and thoughts on the own your domain/own your data question earlier this morning: https://micro.blog/frankm/799177
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Loqi [frankm] @donblanco My point I think is that it is not enough. One needs to have direct access to their content, either on their own server or on their own computer. What I write on a Wordpress blog is on their server and can go away with any hardware failure...
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snarfed [chrisaldrich]: eh there's a distinction to be made there. you can be hard core totally indie, on your own server hardware, etc, but if your hard drive dies, you could still lose your data. sounds like frankm is advocating for *backups*, and decent ops in general
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snarfed ...which is important if you're hosting enough yourself, but different from data access when you're on a semi- or fully-managed CMS or web host
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[cleverdevil] If your site is marked up nicely with microformats, it makes life a lot easier if you want to download/export your content.
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[cleverdevil] Even if the platform you're using doesn't support some form of export, you can use some well-tested tools to extract everything as MF2, and then use that to re-publish to an alternate platform.
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snarfed oh god yeah but exporting via crawling is horrible, painful, unreliable, impractical
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snarfed we should only every suggest that as a very very last resort
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aaronpk i back up my imessages as microformats html
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sknebel I wish more sites with exports had *automated* ways to do that
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aaronpk it's not scraping when it's parsing microformats
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Loqi yea
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snarfed still *crawling*, which is still painful, unreliable, impractical
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snarfed remembers the stockholm syndrome of https://indiemap.org/docs.html#exceptions
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[cleverdevil] That's fair, [snarfed].
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[cleverdevil] But, its a nice last resort to have available 🙂
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ WordPress to http://micro.blog what ever feed you pump into @microdotblog while @miklb  right only a few themes did #IndieWeb well @pfefferle new mf2 feeds plugin made many more compatible. Instead of waiting, try it, and report what’s broken (http://jgregorymcverry.com/6102-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1030155259166031872)
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gRegorLove Whoa, don't think I've seen stream.indieweb.org before
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[eddie] It’s super useful. I am subscribed to stream.indieweb.org in my reader
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jgmac1106 [eddie] i love the indieweb questions you or aaronpk are asking.
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[eddie] lol are you follow people’s reply feeds? 😏
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aaronpk it popped up in stream.indieweb.org!
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[eddie] 😆
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aaronpk which is subscribed to your https://eddiehinkle.com/timeline/ page
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[eddie] hahaha that makes sense
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Loqi hahaha
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[eddie] Next time I’ll have to remember to make my replies as “Unlisted” next time I try to be sneaky
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gRegorLove Sneaky Podcast Club
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gRegorLove I like that podcast idea. Look forward to hearing it.
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aaronpk that was my fault for not responding to the email eddie first sent
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[eddie] The funny thing is my original post stayed hidden. It was today’s reply that got me (because I made the original post as unlisted)
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aaronpk ooh you mean i only found your first one because of the webmention you sent to me?
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[eddie] Thanks gRegorLove! and jgmac1106 glad to hear you think they are good questions. 🙂
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[eddie] Yep, that’s right
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aaronpk hah interesting
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gRegorLove What is unlisted?
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Loqi unlisted are publicly visible posts that are not included in a homepage or main feed https://indieweb.org/unlisted
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[eddie] I kept it off all my feeds and just sent you a webmention
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aaronpk too bad my reply went to my /replies feed
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[eddie] Well, just a good demo to show how semi-private posts will be helpful in the future
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aaronpk how appropritae
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[eddie] haha yeah
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snarfed i love all the different random bridgy accounts i come across. eg this news and talk radio station in oklahoma: https://brid.gy/twitter/NewstalkKCLI
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snarfed does webmentions and everything! evidently on known. https://news.wrightwradio.com/
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snarfed owning their radio segments! audio clips and everything
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gRegorLove awesome
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MetBril Cool! I guess you sent a bookmark or favorite webmention?
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snarfed bridgy has, eg https://news.wrightwradio.com/2018/swosus-sage-steam-camp-earns-recognition
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aaronpk that's awesome
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tantek__ silo-quits << https://twitter.com/girlziplocked/status/1029909564819496962?s=19
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@girlziplocked Overheard this today between a teenager and her dad: “Why did you delete your Twitter account?” “I dunno. I just did.” “Were you being bullied?” “No. I just...all the people on there say the exact same stuff as everyone else on there and like I get it, we’re all gonna die.” (twitter.com/_/status/1029909564819496962)
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Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/girlziplocked/status/1029909564819496962?s=19" to the "See Also" section of /silo-quits https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51052&oldid=50969
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MetBril !tell snarfed I have an Instagram rel=me link in my profile, but brid.gy says I don't. What's wrong? https://robertvanbregt.nl
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed metbril: hmm! looking
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Loqi snarfed: MetBril left you a message 4 minutes ago: I have an Instagram rel=me link in my profile, but brid.gy says I don't. What's wrong? https://robertvanbregt.nl
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snarfed metbril: ah. something somewhere thinks your web site is https://robertvanbregt.nl/wp/ , not https://robertvanbregt.nl/
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snarfed still figuring out what exactly
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MetBril That's got to do with the WordPress IndieAuth plugin.
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snarfed hmm ok. paging GWG
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MetBril That /wp dir is the install dir from the site_url() command, which should be changed to home_url(). PR is on it's way.
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tantek__ 😂 https://twitter.com/socialistdogmom/status/1030172496300044288
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@socialistdogmom if anyone has an in with the development team at twitter, please ask them if they’ll add a feature that shows you posts by people you follow https://twitter.com/_cingraham/status/1029829205675073536 (twitter.com/_/status/1030172496300044288)
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/Llwch/status/1029857436130320385
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@Llwch @_cingraham I would like Twitter to experiment with features that would give me tweets in the timeline by people that I'm following, in the order that they're posted, to address the fact that I only want to see tweets by the people I'm following, in the order that they're posted. (twitter.com/_/status/1029857436130320385)
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MetBril snarfed: do you think I should wait for the fix?
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MetBril I'm not is a hurry...
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tantek__ what is temporal timeline
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "temporal timeline" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "temporal timeline is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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snarfed metbril: yes pls, sorry for the trouble
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snarfed and thank you for fixing it yourself!!!
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snarfed feel free to apply that patch to your site's plugin to confirm it works
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MetBril never mind, it was only for testing.
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MetBril i will see if this is a one line fix. if not, I'll wait for GWG
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MetBril who is GWG?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/User:David.shanske.com
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tantek__ looks like the phrase is chronological feed
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tantek__ what is a chronological feed
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "chronological feed" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "chronological feed is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegorLove I thought we had a page for that somewhere
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tantek__ chronological feed is a stream of [[posts]] in time order, typically in reverse chronological order of their published date (newest first), popularized on the web by journals and blog home pages, feed readers, and [[social media]], until the latter switched to [[algorithmic feed]]s, frustrating many users.
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Loqi ok
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tantek__ chronological feed << 2018-03-22 [https://www.refinery29.com/2018/03/194408/instagram-new-posts-chronological-feed Finally, Good News For Everyone Who Misses Instagram's Chronological Feed]
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Loqi ok, I added "2018-03-22 [https://www.refinery29.com/2018/03/194408/instagram-new-posts-chronological-feed Finally, Good News For Everyone Who Misses Instagram's Chronological Feed]" to a brand new "See Also" section of /chronological_feed https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51057&oldid=51055
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MetBril snarfed: I changed site_url to home_url in this line, but that makes no difference: https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieauth/blob/fbf3a918f6469452193ba14a2aafd1ccb0bb4478/includes/functions.php#L200
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snarfed metbril: ok! i'm not familiar with that plugin, so i'd have to defer to GWG et al
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sknebel metbril: GWG already committed a fix I thought?
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sknebel so check github
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sknebel https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieauth/pull/96/commits/c42adf2bb0d46eb46c58ee50c887d0de9c5b1699
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sknebel also -> dev
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snarfed or -> wordpress
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MetBril I also changed 3 instances in micropub: https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/blob/e050bd806a058ab23657cafeee657dfe1e8ca66b/micropub.php#L1
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MetBril changed locally, that is
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MetBril whether or not GWG made the fix, my local one did not make a difference
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MetBril well I missed that one, since I searched the repo for the string. My local files need to be FTP'ed first. No search there (I could have grepped)
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MetBril Error
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MetBril Please wait a few minutes before you try again.
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MetBril snarfed: I applied the PR manually. Now we're getting somewhere: ""
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MetBril Not there yet
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snarfed metbril: you're in! https://brid.gy/instagram/metbril
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snarfed looks like instagram is rate limiting bridgy's scraping right now, but you'll polled eventually when that clears up
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GWG I am sorry for the issue, it was only one site url that needed to be done
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MetBril I'm happy for now.
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MetBril snarfed ++
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snarfed metbril++
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Loqi metbril has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (3 in all channels)
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snarfed GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 28 karma in this channel over the last year (143 in all channels)
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MetBril snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 39 karma in this channel over the last year (116 in all channels)
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MetBril snarfed: I don't see insta in the home page top bar. Is that OK?
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snarfed metbril: yeah that doesn't matter. just a convenience.
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MetBril github and twitter show
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snarfed sorry, bridgy instagram signup doesn't handle the rate limiting well
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snarfed instagram-- for dropping its API and forcing us to scrape
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Loqi instagram has -3 karma in this channel over the last year (-6 in all channels)
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MetBril it's ok. i like brid.gy anyway
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snarfed aww thanks
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MetBril keep up the good work
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Owning You" https://www.kickscondor.com/2018/08/16/owning-you/
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