#indieweb 2018-08-20

2018-08-20 UTC
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tantek__ willnorris: aside: with the recent resurgence in DiSo discussions, would love to have your help in incorporating some of the DiSo "invention" and "conception" moments into /timeline
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willnorris Yeah, absolutely
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tantek__ there were a lot of "indieweb-like" ideas that came out of DiSo and I want to document their origins as such, it's an important part of our pre-FedSocialWebSummit history (which was 2010 July)
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willnorris I've got access to the site, and can fix your above note when I'm back at computer
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tantek__ oh the broken link? great to know! I'll look for more minor fixes etc.
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tantek__ DiSo's history from 2007-2010 is an important bridge between early microformats/data-portability efforts of 2004-2008, and indieweb of 2011+
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tantek__ willnorris: and most recently, DTP
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tantek__ willnorris: do you know or are you working the DTP folks at all at G?
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willnorris Not closely. I put some outside companies in touch with the dtp as needed, so I know who to talk to. But I haven't been involved with the project
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willnorris The dtp team*
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tantek__ I went to a DTP meeting a G in SF ~2 weeks ago, interesting stuff, and seemed like mostly new folks, having very little knowledge of work 10 years ago +
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willnorris Little knowledge of fedsocial work, but this came out of data liberation team, that's been working on this kind of thing for 10? years
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tantek__ there seem to have been some community/corporate memory loss / memory degradation from DLF
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tantek__ e.g. there was a lot of "since there's no standard for xyz..." ... "um, did you try RFC NNN like vABC?" ... "no, never heard of it" ... "even MS Outlook supports it" ... "oh really. wow."
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willnorris could be
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tantek__ the "since there's no standard for xyz..." was usually followed up or prefaced by "we had to make up our own JSON"
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willnorris Hmm, that's unfortunate. The team used to be *really* good about existing standards.
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tantek__ I think there's still plenty of good intention about existing standards, at least that's the vibe I got
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tantek__ so it may be a document / discoverability issue
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tantek__ documentation*
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willnorris I'm back out on paternity leave right now, but will try to dig into things more when I'm back in the office in a couple of weeks.
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tantek__ willnorris congrats! take your time - will be great to re-engage when you're back. :)
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willnorris (just finishing up leave before judahnorris.com turns 1. No third kid 😁)
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@miklb Live Testing the State of Affairs in WordPress & the IndieWeb: https://miklb.com/blog/2018/08/19/live-testing-the-state-of-affairs-in-wordpress-the-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/1031359000162516999)
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[eddie] Interesting analysis of Micro.blog and IndieWeb: https://vega.micro.blog/2018/08/20/diversity-on-microblog.html
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Loqi Diversity on Micro.blog, from a minority viewpoint.
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tantek__ indeed
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "🔖 Bookmarked: https://vega.micro.blog/2018/08/20/diversity-on-microblog.html 1:00am Today70.64 ℉🌔 IndieNews posted using indigenous.abode.pub" https://vega.micro.blog/2018/08/20/diversity-on-microblog.html (from https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/08/20/2/note/)
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[eddie] Oh darn! Markup issues with my new permalink pages
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@mattl ↩️ Don’t make more silos. Don’t make silos that are worse. StatusNet aka GNU social were silos but @evanpro is okay. http://Libre.fm is okay but I have @robmyers but I don’t want any silos. Don’t make clones of Twitter or Facebook. Use RSS. Use Atom. Use IndieWeb. (twitter.com/_/status/1031419634258456576)
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tantek__ curious to hear what inspired that ^^^ aaronpk
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mattl Basically my desire for simplicity and constraints
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[metbril] [aaronpk] Yes, that would be to login to my own instance (bypassing the built-in auth). BTW, just testing Grav, it currently has too many itches.
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Zegnat Ha, I had to look 2 days back in the logs to figure out the context of that reply, [metbril] :D
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@kinderfilmblog ↩️ Das sind sog. "Webmentions" - hier gibt es das Plugin: https://indieweb.org/Wordpress_Webmention_Plugin Wichtige Sachen auch: https://indieweb.org/webactions und https://indieweb.org/Semantic_Linkbacks. Man muss sich ein wenig einlesen... (twitter.com/_/status/1031459561633472512)
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@kevinmarks ↩️ At http://indieweb.org we've been working on protocols that help connect the individual atomised sites (sometimes through the big silos) (twitter.com/_/status/1031461371307810816)
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Zegnat Another one for the “locked out of Twitter” list: changing your birthdate settings leaving you unable to access the site from your account. http://www.bigmouthstrikesagain.com/2018/08/locked-out/
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Zegnat Twitter << 2018-08-20: [http://www.bigmouthstrikesagain.com/2018/08/locked-out/ Locked Out]: “Messing with the year of birth in my profile page. This, apparently, is a really bad thing and I can’t currently read anything on Twitter or see other people’s messages to me.”
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Loqi ok, I added "2018-08-20: [http://www.bigmouthstrikesagain.com/2018/08/locked-out/ Locked Out]: “Messing with the year of birth in my profile page. This, apparently, is a really bad thing and I can’t currently read anything on Twitter or see other people’s messages to me.”" to the "See Also" section of /Twitter https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51172&oldid=51116
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@mrshll1001 ↩️ Also the post dialogue explicitly asks you if you want to syndicate a copy elsewhere, so Public posts aren't always tweeted/tooted/etc, just available via the site/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/1031521989155074048)
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@evanpro ↩️ @mattl @robmyers That said, I think that #ActivityPub servers should definitely support the IndieWeb stack. (twitter.com/_/status/1031527845405892609)
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[tantek] evanpro++ <3
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Loqi evanpro has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (4 in all channels)
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KartikPrabhu what's indieweb stack?
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aaronpk Maybe https://spec.indieweb.org? Or /building-blocks
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[tantek] Stack is misframing
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[tantek] What is IndieWeb stack?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IndieWeb stack" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "IndieWeb stack is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] IndieWeb stack is /building_blocks
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Loqi ok
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[tantek] Might be a double redirect if someone wants to check / fix ^^^
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[tantek] Aaronpk, spec. Is only part of it, the new specs we’ve had to develop for IndieWeb. We don’t develop all the building blocks (which would be NIH). We re-use a lot from existing good work
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aaronpk Yep true
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[tantek] Aaronpk, could Loqi automatically flatten double redirects?
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[tantek] For the x is /y command? Eg where /y redirects to /z it should treat that like x is /z
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[tantek] Even one level of that would be helpful. Though ideally it would keep following redirects til it found the destination page and then used that
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[tantek] (Sorry that is meta but wanted to provide the context of the real world example just above it)
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@Christo37433424 What we post on the #Internet, stays on the Internet. In this case, what do we need #IndieWeb for? Stephen Rushe answers this question in his #presentation (http://bit.ly/2whRuT0): with this #tech, we own our information. #newtech #seotools #FutureIsHere (twitter.com/_/status/1031532055962767360)
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@jeckman ↩️ @simonw Check out #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/1031538831735046150)
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@adactioLinks Playing with the Indieweb https://noti.st/srushe/7D5URN (twitter.com/_/status/1031569530303205382)
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tantek__ cool! has anyone watched https://noti.st/srushe/7D5URN ?
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tantek__ what are presentations about
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tantek__ what are presentations
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Loqi Presentations and slide decks about the indieweb (in chronological order) are listed below https://indieweb.org/presentations
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tantek__ Great overview in those slides!
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tantek__ Will watch the video a bit later
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tantek__ stephenrushe++
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Loqi stephenrushe has 1 karma over the last year
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[cleverdevil] That's a really great presentation.
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[deeden] 😊
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tantek__ wow this thread from Marco, so many different branches / perspectives. fascinating read
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@marcoarment Twitter-like clone services won’t replace Twitter. “Like Twitter, but worse, and nobody’s on it” is not a compelling sales pitch. The only way to marginalize Twitter is to direct our attention and publish our content to completely different types of platforms, like blogs. (twitter.com/_/status/1031319660401184769)
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tantek__ Mastodon << And IndieWeb: Thread: https://twitter.com/qubyte/status/1031552393375371265
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@qubyte While I'm on Mastodon (and I do enjoy it), I'd much rather we lowered the friction to getting people using their own blogs. https://twitter.com/marcoarment/status/1031319660401184769 (twitter.com/_/status/1031552393375371265)
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Loqi ok, I added "And IndieWeb: Thread: https://twitter.com/qubyte/status/1031552393375371265" to the "See Also" section of /Mastodon https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51178&oldid=51165
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@rebootunity Playing with the Indieweb https://noti.st/srushe/7D5URN (twitter.com/_/status/1031579957825339393)
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skippy https://notd.io/ interesting.
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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@voxpelli ↩️ Retweets work well, see https://indieweb.org/repost for a page documenting approaches and tools. Basically: Mark up the post in a reasonable way and if you want the author to be notified about the repost, then send them a webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1031597052327800833)
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snarfed fyi all, bad news, bridgy backfeed of instagram likes may be dead. they moved them behind an extra http fetch that requires a login cookie. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/840
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Loqi [snarfed] #840 instagram scraping for likes broke
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snarfed ideas are welcome! :/
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jmac That sucks, I'm sorry.
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jmac That sucks that Instagram has done that, I mean.
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snarfed heh thanks
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jmac All silo APIs are quicksand. and there are ants. it's the worst
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[iambismark] the death of web 2.0… time for web 4.0 (since those ethereum jerks stole 3.0)!
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jeremycherfas Snarfed++ It has been fun and useful while it lasted.
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Loqi Snarfed has 40 karma in this channel over the last year (119 in all channels)
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aaronpk oh no i am so sad about instagram!!
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snarfed aaronpk: i'm not calling it yet. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/840#issuecomment-414412933
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Loqi [snarfed] current tentative plan: do all scraping with a login cookie from a throwaway account. IG does already rate limit our scraping, but i believe that's automatic, not us specifically. i expect bridgy is still small enough (5k users, <1k instagram) that I...
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snarfed ...but it definitely is a bad sign
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gRegorLove :/
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colelyman !karma aaronpk
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Loqi aaronpk has 44 karma in this channel over the last year (312 in all channels)
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[eso] 👋
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KartikPrabhu hmmm that could have been legit ^^
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tantek__ oh?
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KartikPrabhu people wave in here all the time
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tantek__ within seconds of joining a new channel?
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KartikPrabhu yeah, new participant ?
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[eddie] I think it was legit…. it was a slack user
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KartikPrabhu is slack prone to spamming?
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KartikPrabhu if not we could add an exception for those?
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[eddie] I’ve never seen someone spam in Slack
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[iambismark] probably harder to automate than IRC
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[eddie] Hey [eso]
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KartikPrabhu [eddie]: maybe invite them back, and mention that we are preventing spamming and got a false positive
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[eddie] Haha yeah, sorry about that [eso]. We’ve had a lot of spam issues with IRC 🙂
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[eddie] You are still in the slack channel but your connection to IRC is a little broken currently because of our spam detection was turned up to 💯
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[eddie] Let me see if we can get the IRC channel back open for you 🙂
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[eddie] Nah, you’re fine here
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[eddie] tantek: Do you have the ability to unblock someone, [eso] is still in slack, so if we unblock the user in IRC, the slack/irc bridge should probably re-connect
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Zegnat When the Slack bridge gets kicked, it needs to rejoin, I believe
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Zegnat pinging aaronpk to rejoin the slack bridge
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aaronpk Oh no haha
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[eddie] Oh yay, you’re here. I was about to reach out on the meta channel.
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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aaronpk i don't have a good way to do that. Sit tight for like 10 minutes and it should time out? Or change your slack name
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aaronpk I'll have to turn down the spam stuff on ppl from the bridge
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aaronpk I think you're still in the other channels too
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[eddie] Just sent [eso] so instructions via Slack DM on changing slack username. So that should work :crossed_fingers:
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@jgmac1106 We put the final touches on our #IES #QuestionTheWeb  research proposal: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OrwDAzNPIn1DbJyUxbvyqVciYZUAgjO7dstQ7FmiGQQ/edit?usp=sharing love any last second critiques #literacies #openscience #IndieWeb (http://jgregorymcverry.com/6197-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1031648068205199361)
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[eddie] Hmmm
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[eddie] strange, I’m not seeing your message on irc [eso]… It might not have worked
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[eddie] ohhh the irc bridge has cached your nickname
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[iambismark] (I had that same problem, my slack nickname was only updated on the irc side after the bridge was rebooted)
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[eddie] [eso] Had to head out for the day anyway, but said they would be back tomorrow
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[eddie] Found out about us through one of Brad Frost’s posts though!
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[eddie] bradfrost++
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Loqi bradfrost has 1 karma over the last year
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aaronpk spam--
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Loqi spam has -1 karma in this channel over the last year (-2 in all channels)
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aaronpk Sorry about that
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tantek spam--
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Loqi spam has -2 karma in this channel over the last year (-3 in all channels)
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[chrisaldrich] [Khurt] I don't think that Manton has ruled out open sourcing micro.blog yet, though I also don't think I've heard him speak about it publicly, so that may not be out of the realm.
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[chrisaldrich] I do know that benwerd has mentioned in the past that he wished he'd made WithKnown closed source to start instead of making it open from the beginning. Perhaps things would have been different?
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[eddie] The key is Micro.blog doesn’t need to be open sourced. It pulls in posts from feeds and the content hosting is just based on Jekyll (which can be exported using GitHub and loaded onto your own server)
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[eddie] The only part that is not open source is the syndication/curation networking features
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[chrisaldrich] The other difference between Tumblr and micro.blog is that manton is both aware and actively building a product to be as IndieWeb friendly/compatible and as easy as he possibly can.
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[iambismark] indieweb principle #1 > indieweb principle #6 🙂
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[Khurt] [eddie] how is that different that what other platforms (WordPress, Tumblr) do in terms of export your content? I’m not putting down micro.blog, I’m just trying to understand why some think it’s special.
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[Khurt] [chrisaldrich] micro.blog pulls in my post “Title + link” but I wish it had Twitter style summary cards or could pull in the WordPress post excerpts.
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[chrisaldrich] I'm curious if it _was_ open sourced, how many people would move from their current solution to building directly in micro.blog as a CMS?
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[eddie] micro.blog itself isn’t a CMS, it’s just hosted Jekyll blogs
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aaronpk Micro.blog is able to interact natively with IndieWeb sites, whereas twitter/tumblr/etc all require proxies on both sides
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tantek__ right, interaction only with one-off approved apps via a proprietary API
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[chrisaldrich] [Khurt] for me, it's special because it's one of the first IndieWeb-based companies. It's blazing a trail to allow the masses to own their own domain and their content, but still be able to interact on a first class basis with all other indieweb sites.
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aaronpk proxies written by *other people* which end up eventually getting shut down like we have seen with faceoil and Instagram and Twitter
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[Khurt] [chrisaldrich] that would certainly make IndieWeb plugins on WordPress useless. Questions: if Automattic was to add Webmentions to JetPack would that make a different.
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aaronpk I don't think anyone is calling wordpress a silo
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[chrisaldrich] [Khurt] I think it would be far more powerful (and likely) that WordPress would add webmention as a core feature across the board if/when they made the decision to do it.
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[chrisaldrich] Medium.com certainly has more "silo" aspects than WordPress.com... one of the key differences being that you can't map your own domain onto their service anymore.
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tantek__ WordPress.com is a hybrid silo / blog hosting service (since you can pay to have them serve your WP on your domain)
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tantek__ what is wordpress.com
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Loqi Wordpress.com is a blog hosting service that runs the WordPress open source software https://indieweb.org/WordPress.com
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tantek__ so even more forgiving in the dfn then
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[chrisaldrich] Tantek, did you ever experiment with using Tumblr as your primary identity in the past? I remember you talking about others having done so relatively easily.
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tantek__ not sure about relatively easily but it has been a topic of conversation for quite some time
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tantek__ I experimented with adding mf2 to Tumblr
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tantek__ and as a PESETAS destination
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[chrisaldrich] What is Tumblr?
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Loqi Tumblr is a popular content hosting silo, especially for found images & video, that explicitly supports multiple types of posts, and through free domain mapping, a content hosting service as well https://indieweb.org/Tumblr
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[Khurt] Most people don’t know that WordPress.com has a conversation/community feature.
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[chrisaldrich] [Khurt] That conversation feature is just a different view of their recently revamped reader.
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[chrisaldrich] Instead of focusing on the article only in the reader, it's more prominently featuring the comments of posts as well.
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[chrisaldrich] It is a better UI than subscribing to individual sites' RSS comments feeds though.
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[chrisaldrich] They released it back in February: https://en.blog.wordpress.com/2018/02/02/reader-conversations/
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[chrisaldrich] I'll note that the post that announced it was written by the designer who redid their reader interface.
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[Khurt] [chrisaldrich] yep.
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[chrisaldrich] It's probably not a bad UI example for some of the microsub readers...
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[Khurt] [chrisaldrich] what is a microsub reader and what does it do that other readers don’t do?
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[eddie] What is microsub?
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Loqi Microsub provides a standardized way for reader apps to interact with feeds https://indieweb.org/microsub
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[eddie] Eh, not a great description
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[eddie] It seperates the UI from the feed parsing
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[Khurt] [eddie] do you have an explanation that is understandable in terms of “what does it do for me that other readers do not”?
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[Khurt] Or is just the same thing in a different wrapper.
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[eddie] two things: 1) it supports Micropub reactions and resposnes
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[Khurt] what are micropub reactions and responses?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "micropub reactions and responses" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "micropub reactions and responses is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[chrisaldrich] aaronpk's recent post covers some of the particulars: https://aaronparecki.com/2018/03/12/17/building-an-indieweb-reader
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[eddie] 2) it allows different clients that work with the same server
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[eddie] good link, [chrisaldrich]
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[Khurt] So … does it do something my RSS reader does not?
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[Khurt] Does it improve my experience?
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[chrisaldrich] I wrote about some of it from a blue sky perspective over a year ago with woodwind.xyz as an example: https://boffosocko.com/2017/06/09/how-feed-readers-can-grow-market-share-and-take-over-social-media/
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[eddie] It allows me to respond to posts like Facebook and Twitter but it posts to my own website
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Loqi [Chris Aldrich] Feed reader revolution
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[eddie] What is a reader?
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Loqi A reader (AKA indie reader or social reader) in the context of the indieweb is the portion/feature integrated into an indieweb site that provides a way to read content from other indieweb sites, possibly including posts from the current site, and respond (like, comment, repost, etc) inline in the reading UI itself https://indieweb.org/reader
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[chrisaldrich] [Khurt] Imagine a feed reader that would allow you to respond to posts within it, but your responses get logged to your own website which then automatically sends webmentions.
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[chrisaldrich] Most of the rest is really all plumbing discussion...
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[chrisaldrich] It's really too bad that woodwind.xyz isn't functioning anymore as a proof of concept.
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[Khurt] [chrisaldrich] thanks you. I don’t care about the plumbing. I care if I can take a shower.
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[Khurt] [chrisaldrich] so micropub readers are not something one can use today without writing one’s own code?
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[chrisaldrich] There's a simple WordPress plugin for Aperture that will give you an endpoint that should let you log into Together, Indigenous, or Monocle.
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[chrisaldrich] You'll also want the micropub plugin up and running to get the most out of it. Some in the WordPress space have had trouble getting them working yet though as there are some small bugs to get ironed out as they all need to dovetail.
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[chrisaldrich] If you want to use them now, you'll probably need to be game for a bit of tinkering around.
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snarfed and even without a plugin, you can use aperture by adding just a single <link> tag to your site's home page
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snarfed or https://baffle.tech/ if you use newsblur (shameless plug)
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[chrisaldrich] A year from now, I suspect there will be more options and things will "just work"...
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[chrisaldrich] What is microsub?
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Loqi Microsub provides a standardized way for reader apps to interact with feeds https://indieweb.org/microsub
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GWG Working gets easier every day
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[chrisaldrich] GWG++ for giving me a fan club to be president of...
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Loqi GWG has 30 karma in this channel over the last year (151 in all channels)
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GWG When is the next membership drive and general meeting?
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Loqi what
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aaronpk If you use Wordpress you can install my Aperture plugin and not need to write any code at all even html
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[Khurt] [aaronpk] I downloaded Indigenous, logged in with my domain. The app indicated that I needed to setup a micropub endpoint so I installed Aperture plugin in WordPress. Then I realized I needed an Aperture account. Perhaps I should have started there.
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aaronpk Installing the Aperture plugin makes an aperture account
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tantek [Khurt] I want to add your quote " I don’t care about the plumbing. I care if I can take a shower." to the /plumbing page - may I? 😂
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GWG Pub or Sub?
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aaronpk If that didn't work please let me know. There are like a million variations of how wordpress can be installed and I have only tested on like 2
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@ChrisAldrich ↩️ I like where John is taking this & that he's actively experimenting & documenting what he's coming up with as potential solutions. I'm not sure how some of it will come out within the broader spectrum of #DoOO or #IndieWeb-related technologies. [more...] https://boffosocko.com/2018/08/20/google-sheets-blogging-cms-part-1-john-a-stewart/ (twitter.com/_/status/1031676400497975297)
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[Khurt] [aaronpk] installing the apeture plugin did not make an account or if it did I can’t find it in the WordPress UI.
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[Khurt] [tantek] yes.
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aaronpk There is nothing in the wordpress UI but you should be able to log in to indigenous now
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aaronpk I should add some sort of visual confirmation of it tho
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aaronpk not sure where you'd expect to see that
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Loqi +1
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[chrisaldrich] If you look at the source of your homepage it will include a link like this: `<link rel="microsub" href="https://aperture.p3k.io/microsub/##">`
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[chrisaldrich] aaronpk++ for almost 100 microsub accounts on Aperture already!
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Loqi aaronpk has 45 karma in this channel over the last year (314 in all channels)
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aaronpk haha wow
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[chrisaldrich] suspects they're incremented by 1 each time and even with a dozen or more as test/development accounts...
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[chrisaldrich] I'll also note that for some reason Aperture didn't recognize my domain as having been previously registered and gave me user #99 when I'd previously been #16. Is that an indieauth or micropub related issue?
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[Khurt] [chrisaldrich] yes. I have that link in the hearder
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[Khurt] I create the aperture account manually. The wordpress plug did not.
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[chrisaldrich] then you're definitely set up with an account and that link is what the reader clients will be looking for on your site to dovetail with them.
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[chrisaldrich] [Khurt] if you had to do it manually and the plugin didn't, then you might want to file an issue at https://github.com/aaronpk/aperture-wordpress
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Loqi [aaronpk] aperture-wordpress: A WordPress plugin to use Aperture as your Microsub endpoint
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[chrisaldrich] I suspect you're one of the first users to try it out.
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[Khurt] [chrisaldrich] I’m one of those people who is able to break software just by using it. 🙂
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aaronpk [chrisaldrich]: that's an IndieAuth plugin issue, home_url vs site_url thing
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aaronpk I'll try to debug in a minute
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[Khurt] I verified that <link rel=“microsub” href=“https://aperture.p3k.io/microsub/98“> appears in the header of my site.
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[Khurt] Not sure why Indigenous can’t find it.
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[eddie] If the header was added AFTER you logged in, you’ll probably want to log out and back in
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[eddie] [Khurt] I ran your site through pin13, and I’m not seeing a Microsub rel link being parsed. http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fislandinthenet.com%2F
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[Khurt] [eddie] I don’t know what pin13 is but ….
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tantek what is pin13
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Loqi pin13 is a collection of tools that aid in IndieWeb-friendly web development, including microformats parsing, character counting, JSON prettifying, and number converting https://indieweb.org/pin13
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[Khurt] [eddie] so did the Aperture plugin not install the proper code? Not sure how to trouble shoot this?
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[eddie] Hmmm yeah, it seems like the code isn’t displaying properly. I’m looking at the raw html source to see if it’s not there or if there’s just an issue with how it’s being parsed
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[Khurt] I manually inserted the link into the header file for the WP template. Not a good idea but …
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[Khurt] [eddie] not sure why the code isn’t appearing in pin13 but it’s there in the source.
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[kevinmarks] Not seeing it on the homepage http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fislandinthenet.com&html=&pretty=on
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[kevinmarks] Also, looks like you're using rel=author for rel=tag
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[eddie] I wonder if your Wordpress is cached [Khurt]?
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aaronpk 😭
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aaronpk why is wordpress so difficult
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aaronpk ok back at computer
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aaronpk opens up a toolbox
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aaronpk finds two accounts for chrisaldrich
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aaronpk https://boffosocko.com/ and https://www.boffosocko.com/
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aaronpk www is the older one
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aaronpk WHOA hello bridgy
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aaronpk just found a bunch of new instagram likes
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