#indieweb 2018-09-01

2018-09-01 UTC
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[keithjgrant] PSA: don't log out of Omnibear tonight. I'm shuffling hosting & DNS around and I'm not entirely sure if logging in will work while the auth page is down
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[keithjgrant] (I thought this would take 10 mins tops, but cloudflare apparently set some stupid TTLs)
wolftune, renem, ben_thatmustbeme, AngeloGladding, electronicmaji, eli_oat, eli_oat1 and Thanks joined the channel
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miklb_ if I'm linking to someone with an @ in a note and link to their Twitter url is there any mf2 that would be handy to include in that markup?
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miklb_ Ideally I'd like to extend beyond Twitter
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miklb_ oh. I wonder if I could parse the rel-me from their Twitter handle first to get their home URL. Does that sound doable?
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[eddie] If I were looking for a list of people involved in the IndieWeb any ideas for a good place to look? My first thought was people who have posted to IndieNews. After that, I’m not sure.
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[jon] catching up here … I see that others have already shared the “Diversity on Micro.blog” post. [aaronpk], when we talked at OSBridge you said that there was a desire to do something about Indieweb’s ongoing diversity problems. Has there been any followup to the Indiewebcamp session?
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@frankmeeuwsen ↩️ Ja, uiteindelijk heb ik nog een presentatie gegeven over het Indieweb en mijn experimenten met Twitter en Facebook. Even afzonderen en wat slides gemaakt. Dan kom je een heel eind! (twitter.com/_/status/1035789407394181121)
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Zegnat [jon] there was a discussion about it at the Leaders summit aswell (where organisers talk pre-IndieWebCamp). That included discussion on personal outreach, thinking about who you invite to events, and also how future travel assistance can be made more accessible.
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@derhess ↩️ Isn't the annotations standard by w3c for this kind of needs? https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/ this article summarised the key points very good https://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2018/08/28/all-about-open-annotation/ for some more functional link back, I can highly recommend to check the indieweb webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/1035818601557700608)
catsup, barpthewire, [kevinmarks], _200ok_, calumryan, KevinMarks_, KevinMarks, maxalt16, eli_oat, JulianF[m], decode1, friedcell, grdryn[m], Matthew[m], EricDrechsel[m], mxuribe[m], M0x3F[m], hotzeplotz[m], plindner[m], Salt[m], pniedzielski[m], myfreeweb[m], thrrgilag, ishj1984[m], camb[m], grantcodes[m], wakingrufus[m], wjh[m], zoglesby, eli_oat[m], moredhel_[m], maze[m], cuibonobo[m], dazinism[m], damian11215[m], Viaken[m], strk[m], maze[m]1, jaduncan[m], klandwehr[m], ElMago[m], afrogeek[m] and isgy[m] joined the channel
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@mrkrndvs ↩️ @chalkhands No need to read ☺️ It is the link to the Tweet sent from my site as a part of the #IndieWeb https://readwriterespond.com/2017/10/indieweb-reflections/ (twitter.com/_/status/1035840669917405186)
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aaronpk [eddie]: /chat-names!
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aaronpk [jon]: happy to take suggestions or help
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[jgmac1106] [jon] We are planning to continue the work throughout the year
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[jgmac1106] What we did not decide and where there is some disagreement is wether designing for diversity and inclusion should be in the IndieWeb Principles.
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GWG Greetings all
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[jgmac1106] Hey @gwg on the way home this week correct?
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GWG I hope so
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GWG I am pleased
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snarfed GWG++, sounded like a hell of a trip
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Loqi GWG has 31 karma in this channel over the last year (156 in all channels)
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GWG snarfed: 4 Weeks
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snarfed phew!
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GWG snarfed: All Indieweb community members are welcome. I have a table, a couch, and widfi
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[jon] [aaronpk] lots of good ideas have been suggested already:
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[jon] 1) commit to prioritizing diversity and inclusion and put it in your principles.
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[jon] 3) have some very straightforward instructions about how to set up an Indieweb site using Wordpress (the current instructions on the wiki focus on “generation 2 and 3” users) and Tumblr (NOT starting with “set up your own domain”, because that’s a barrier to many people)
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[jon] 2) articulate how Indieweb technology solves specific needs for underserved groups - and build support and tutorials to make it very easy to get aboard. [anomalily] has great points about the zine aspect; Jacky Alciné brought up poet
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[jon] 4) redesign the website.
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[jon] 5) outreach focused on *listening* to what people from marginalized communities want, rather than on the current perceived selling points
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[jon] 6) make it clear what people can do to defend against harassment
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aaronpk this is better for the meta channel
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[jon] i’m not seeing a meta channel in Slack?
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[jon] but, feel free to copy it over
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aaronpk it probably doesn't display by default but you can search for it in the channel list
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[jon] oh ok, got it
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[keithjgrant] This might tie into that above, but I'm working now on some more beginner-friendly "how to set up micropub" (and indieauth) docs for omnibear.com
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[keithjgrant] i'd be happy to cross post relevant stuff to the wiki
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[jgmac1106] [jon] working on these for new WordPress directions: https://indieweb.org/User:Jgregorymcverry.com/getting-started-with-WordPress-for-beginners
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[jon] that’s good to hear, [keithjgrant] and [jgmac1106]!
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Zegnat AngeloGladding, the podcast was released on the day of recording. So May 14th: https://jeena.net/pods/17
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Loqi [Jeena] The IndieWeb - Martijn https://jeena.net/system/pods/photos/000/000/017/original/martijn.jpg?1526323119
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AngeloGladding so the two person format is great and your and jeena's implementation was as well
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Zegnat All credits to Jeena. I just happened to be in Gothenburg and able to show up for a chat :D
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AngeloGladding so of your multiple domains do you have a primary domain?
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Zegnat For my identity it has been vanderven.se/martijn for years. Everything else is secondary.
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AngeloGladding curious, why don't you prefer zegnat.net?
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Zegnat I guess it just never stuck with me personally. As you can see on my homepage, I do not actually use zegnat as username a whole lot either.
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aaronpk now that I own aaronpk.com (it wasn't available when I started using "aaronpk"), I keep thinking about moving completely to that domain
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AngeloGladding in zegnat's case it isn't immediately obvious which of the two is his primary identity
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AngeloGladding zegnat.net links to vand.se/.. but not vice versa
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AngeloGladding a bi-directional rel=me could punt to the client
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Zegnat It does link back, but only to the wiki subdomain and not to the landing page on zegnat.net
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Zegnat zegnat.net isn’t actually me though. Its not a profile page. rel-me would be wrong.
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AngeloGladding and yet here i am refering to you as zegnat
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AngeloGladding :)
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Zegnat I have also been called Zegnat IRL at an IndieWebCamp, IIRC :P
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AngeloGladding you are definitely zegnat.net
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Zegnat Hahaha
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Loqi hehe
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Zegnat I should really push my nick change through everywhere I guess :P
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Loqi yea!
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Zegnat Thanks for the support Loqi.
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AngeloGladding aaronpk i'm sure i've read about it in the wiki but are you aware of immediate negative side-effects to the transition?
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Loqi you're welcome
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aaronpk I haven't fully thought through it tbh
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aaronpk i'm sure there's some SEO voodoo reasons to think about too
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AngeloGladding oh right...
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AngeloGladding maybe
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AngeloGladding probably..
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Zegnat Transition ... from one domain to another? Anywhere that uses IndieAuth will think you are a new person so configurations wont carry over. Not a big issue for aaronpk probably, as he selfhosts about everything and can just update databases
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AngeloGladding have either of you heard of the `alt-svc` header?
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AngeloGladding i brought it up earlier
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Zegnat Not until you brought it up earlier ;)
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AngeloGladding it's like rel=me but not
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AngeloGladding just in case you didn't click through it just allows you to designate an alternative-service
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AngeloGladding one that behaves identically
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Zegnat So ... rel-alternate except the alternate link is of the same document type?
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Zegnat adds the RFC to his reading list
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AngeloGladding an alternative origin (scheme + host + port) -- my example earlier used it to change the hostname to an .onion -- but in this context it could be used to preempt your domain name transition
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AngeloGladding clients operating against aaronparecki.com would be instructed to use aaronpk.com (transparently in the background)
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Zegnat Ah. The header didn’t imply transition to me, didn’t express priority or preference. Interesting though!
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Zegnat ... Welcome back Matrix?
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aaronpk wow
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AngeloGladding what's causing that?
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aaronpk the matrix irc gateway
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Zegnat Must have dropped out at some point and reconnected now
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AngeloGladding the header just says "use this service now if you can"
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AngeloGladding service == origin
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AngeloGladding and the implication is different for each context
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AngeloGladding it's a tool
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AngeloGladding not sure how it fits or if it does at all
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AngeloGladding it's there
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Zegnat I can definitely see a use for it, I am just wondering if transition is it :)
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aaronpk may I recommend #indieweb-dev for further discussion of this spec
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Zegnat Identity transitions are hard. We aren’t the first to bump into it I would say
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AngeloGladding there's a certain anxiety to name selection and the domain name is really the one thing you never own
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AngeloGladding it's a pain point
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AngeloGladding and if that's the *very* first thing that makes you "in" that in and of itself is a high barrier
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AngeloGladding which really goes back to what was being discussed earlier in meta
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AngeloGladding so i've been working on a one-click install platform for a while now
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AngeloGladding i didn't start with the idea of using Tor
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AngeloGladding i had contemplated it but it all smacked too much of the silk road
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AngeloGladding which wasn't the primary goal so i put it on the backburner
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AngeloGladding it wasn't until someone wanted to "host their indie website on their own computer" where it clicked
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AngeloGladding notice not a single mention of "anonymous" in the discussions of Tor so far
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AngeloGladding or heck even of "privacy"
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AngeloGladding from a "get it online" perspective there are unique characteristics
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AngeloGladding so i've created a deployment script to deploy my platform to various endpoints -- the cloud (for backbone connectivity) and the local machine (for development)
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AngeloGladding this was pre-Tor
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AngeloGladding once I introduced Tor support and .onions as first class identifiers something magical happened
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AngeloGladding my local deployments were literally live
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AngeloGladding just as a side-effect
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AngeloGladding so now i have this script that essentially generates a private key and hosts content at it
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AngeloGladding in my case there's massive complexity that ensues
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Zegnat Complexity that is probably better discussed with developers in #indieweb-dev, as aaronpk said :) Lets try keep this channel to the broad aspects of IndieWeb
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AngeloGladding oof..
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AngeloGladding i was juust about to say..
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AngeloGladding in the simplest case you could provide [jon]'s legion to download the script and run it and be "online"
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AngeloGladding i could have spared the anecdote but i feel like i'm trying real hard to shed the masked black hat persona that inherently comes with discussion of Tor
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AngeloGladding and i think this is relevant to IndieWeb broadly
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AngeloGladding the first barrier to entry is mindboggling huge to the layperson
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AngeloGladding i've been in the streets talking to people
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AngeloGladding and they're intelligents
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AngeloGladding it's actually been friends and friends of friends and i've actually genuinely tried
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AngeloGladding the concept of origin is known only to us
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AngeloGladding so i *really* don't want to move this to #indieweb-dev if you don't mind
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Zegnat It is mostly a jargon thing. This conversation has the potential to spin out quickly, potentially turning “nerdy” (for lack of a better term). This might keep people who just want to discuss their first website or asking their first questions from speaking up here.
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Zegnat We as a community try to get better at splitting that stuff up. Though nobody is without fault there and most of us still mess up near daily!
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Zegnat There is a lot of good stuff in there though! And I agree that a one-click-go-live solution is probably the future for independence.
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Zegnat I think that is something Beaker Browser already does? Lets people create pages on the “decentralised web” right from their browser.
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AngeloGladding i know which room i'm in and i'm definitely actively avoiding the plumbing
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AngeloGladding basically every *other* social network has a one-click install
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AngeloGladding because they *need* it
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AngeloGladding the web has already been bootstrapped for us
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AngeloGladding and as a result we don't have a one-click
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Zegnat We also do not have a one-click because having a one-click for “website” is hard. Whats a website to you? Whats a website to me?
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AngeloGladding an .onion with an h-card
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AngeloGladding .
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AngeloGladding rel=me with twitter
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AngeloGladding i mean there's 1000 ways to tackle it but some kind of common denominator should be available
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AngeloGladding in my opinion
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AngeloGladding like for the maturity of the IW it's almost amazing that we don't
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KartikPrabhu where do we host the one-click? who manages it?
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AngeloGladding great questions
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AngeloGladding my script works on debian
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AngeloGladding here's one other facet to my installer
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AngeloGladding it's being designed such that the user can install my software on their own cloud
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AngeloGladding Digital Ocean is my current chosen provider
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AngeloGladding so you provide the script with an API token and it'll build that debian server for you
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AngeloGladding so there's options
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AngeloGladding Tor is supported on all operating systems
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AngeloGladding the script could be adapted to work on OSX pretty easily i'm sure
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aaronpk "script", "debian", "Digital Ocean"... these all sound like #indieweb-dev
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KartikPrabhu ^
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AngeloGladding local virtualization is a heavyweight alternative
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AngeloGladding app OSX Amazon
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AngeloGladding there
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KartikPrabhu isn't even sure that he could do all these things
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Zegnat It isn’t amazing to me that we haven’t defined a common denominator for websites, BTW. There are too many goals for having a webpage to find a common denominator among the content.
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AngeloGladding identity.
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KartikPrabhu you don't need scripts for that. HTML page with h-card on static hosting works
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AngeloGladding what the HECK is "static hosting"?
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AngeloGladding ;P
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AngeloGladding and i'm actually serious -- can you eludicate what it means to you?
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AngeloGladding ooooh
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AngeloGladding you're thinking of a script being run on the backend of a server
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AngeloGladding ?
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AngeloGladding hmm.. let's clarify
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KartikPrabhu what is static
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Loqi A static site is a website that is served by a web server directly from the file system https://indieweb.org/static
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AngeloGladding ok
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AngeloGladding but what is the context?
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KartikPrabhu is not even sure what the problem statement is. and as aaronpk said this is getting jargony enough to move to dev channel
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AngeloGladding moves to #indieweb-dev
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