#indieweb 2018-09-02

2018-09-02 UTC
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aaronpk design << [https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/ Web Design Museum] with over 900 carefully selected and sorted web sites that show web design trends between the years 1995 and 2005
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Loqi ok, I added "[https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/ Web Design Museum] with over 900 carefully selected and sorted web sites that show web design trends between the years 1995 and 2005" to the "See Also" section of /design https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51422&oldid=51325
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vilhalmer neat
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@johnjohnston ↩️ Replied to Mr M on Twitter (Twitter) “Why has your reply copied the tweet @johnjohnston ? ” I am using my blog to tweet/reply/like (sometimes) with #indieweb plugins & don’t always get it right;-) see status page blog for examples &… http://johnjohnston.info/blog/i-am-using-my-blog-to-tweet/ (twitter.com/_/status/1036081722054594561)
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petermolnar meanwhile, in Egypt, you'll need a licence to open a website... https://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2018/07/12/will-egypts-new-media-law-bring-back-objectives-of-ministry-of-information/
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@niklas_jordan pwaldhauer klingt als solltest du dich mal mit dem #Indieweb Konzept beschäftigen. Vor allem POSSE könnte das sein was du suchst: https://indieweb.org/POSSE dort findest du auch allerhand Beispiele von anderen die dieses Prinzip fahren. (twitter.com/_/status/1036171192196116480)
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@IndiegoHugo I’ve integrated the @RealFavicon @gulpjs workflow into the #IndieWeb Indiego PWA feature branch. The @____lighthouse rating is pretty amazing: https://pwa. http://dlvr.it/Qhs0Hv (twitter.com/_/status/1036180945777250304)
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/brianphillips/status/1035675929010262017?s=19
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@brianphillips We need a name for the fascinating social-media post you see for a tenth of a second before the algorithm scrambles the page and never find again no matter how far down you scroll (twitter.com/_/status/1035675929010262017)
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[jgmac1106] silo quit? http://discours.es/2018/social-coop/
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@jgmac1106 @sdepolo We had talked awhile back about adding a Getting Started on #IndieWeb with @GoDaddy on here https://indieweb.org/Getting_Started#tutorials If you folks already have @WordPress or @withknown we can help. (http://jgregorymcverry.com/6374-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1036232977427177473)
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb!
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jeremycherfas Hello zegnat
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jgmac1106 Hello buddy
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Zegnat jgmac1106, that link to Doug seems interesting. I didn’t know there was a paid plan for social.coop! I wonder how the numbers on that worked and if something like that would be possible for an indieweb sort of thing
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jgmac1106 It was a neat group…been exploring a lot of cooperative models with those folks..Doug started the weareopen co-op after he left Mozilla
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jgmac1106 ….but instance got banned by other instances for not explictly banning “nazis”
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jgmac1106 [zegnat] do you think we need our own IndieWeb twitter or Mastodon beyond chat and L:oqi key phrases?
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jgmac1106 setting up somethign like indieweb.xyz where folks could syndicate notes to doesn’t seem that hard….
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Zegnat No. But there have often been conversations about wether people want to start providing hosting of IndieWeb ready WP/Known setups. Knowing that there might be a structure that could financially support that is interesting.
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Zegnat I don’t think IndieWeb (as in indieweb.org / the community here in chat) should be running any sort of extra service.
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jgmac1106 cool, we are in a greement there…but yeah I think a co-op hosting model could work...using subdomains it would be cheap…if everyone would be getting a domain then you know you are probably starting around $20 US
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jgmac1106 http://www.webhosting.coop
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jgmac1106 $100 seems steep but somebody could quickly get a coop hosting model goign with Digital Ocean
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jgmac1106 [zegnat] this semester I am going to add a comment feed and try and see if I can create a quick chat like room…but set up Slack for now…wonder what is the indieweb version of this: https://www.rumbletalk.com/premium/
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jgmac1106 I wouldn’t even care if the data doesn’t save…
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jgmac1106 http://deadsimplechat.com/
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Zegnat You’ll need a summation of exactly what you are looking for. But I don’t know a lot of “chat” things having been developed wrt IndieWeb.
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Zegnat aaronpk has a chat on his site, I think, which hooks to his private IRC server IIRC.
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jgmac1106 just think if I added a chat room to my class websites I wouldn’t need to also use Slack, might play with deadsimplechat or look at what aaronpk did..wouldn’t be till next semester so plenty of time to think about it
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@martijnvdven ↩️ I am happy to help out if you are diving into ChanServ for the first time! You can often find me in any of the IndieWeb channels as Zegnat :) (twitter.com/_/status/1036255599997214720)
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jgmac1106 What is common book?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "common book" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "common book is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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jgmac1106 What is commonplace?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "commonplace" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "commonplace is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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jgmac1106 What is a commonplace book?
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Loqi A Commonplace book (or commonplaces) are a way to compile and store knowledge, usually by writing information into books, notebooks, card catalogs, or in more modern settings on one's own website https://indieweb.org/commonplace_book
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jgmac1106 there we go
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jgmac1106 yeah those bugs he found are huge, and an easy fix
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jgmac1106 oops meant for /wordpress
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[jon] [jgmac1106] (and Zegnat, who for some reason I can’t tag in Slack), here’s what’s up on social.coop. https://www.loomio.org/d/gnlFzrpk/an-open-letter
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Zegnat Can’t tag me? Maybe because I am not a Slack user...
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[jon] could be. then again neither is jgmac1106 as far as i can tell. i hate software.
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jgmac1106 [jon] I am chat-fluid because I have Slack open for other things and sometimes hup back and forth
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jgmac1106 hop*
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[jon] an ok. weird. [jgmac1106] did you get the DM I sent you yesterday in slack?
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[kevinmarks] silo-quits << Om Malik quits Facebook https://om.co/2018/09/01/the-long-goodbye-to-facebook/
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Loqi ok, I added "Om Malik quits Facebook https://om.co/2018/09/01/the-long-goodbye-to-facebook/" to the "See Also" section of /silo-quits https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51436&oldid=51386
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petermolnar tl;dr Om Malik left Facebook for good, still on Instagram because of good photos
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petermolnar can we not just go back to Flickr with out photos, please?
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petermolnar if we need a social media for photos, please let it be Flickr...
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@jdp23 Really disappointing dynamics in the #indieweb chatroom today. I pointed out to a community leader that he was using anti-trans language and he continued to do so. (twitter.com/_/status/1036294860599246848)
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miklb_ ?
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[tantek] [miklb] and in questioning such labeling, no reply. There’s some additional discussion in -meta
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miklb_ OK, thanks
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[jon] Tantek characterized the anti-WilW behavior on Mastodon as a “toxic mob”. I said that it was community defense by trans people. He continued to describe it that way and I explicitly said “you started out this conversation by characterizing trans people’s methods you disagree about as a “toxic mob”“. And he’s still using the term “toxic mob”.
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[tantek] Jon, I’ll drop the term “toxic” as it seems counterproductive
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[tantek] I don’t like the way an apparent “mob” (no idea of their identities) replying to one individual were able to harass that person off not just one Mastodon instance but any instance.
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[tantek] I think that’s a dark path and shows a way to abuse mastodon that’s particularly worrisome for folks less privileged and more vulnerable than a celebrity
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[tantek] I’d like to avoid that here
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[kevinmarks] The reach of mentions is a part of this.
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miklb_ my take is that any group of people can be a toxic mob and that it's not "anti-trans language" but a general characterization. WIth more context it sounds like you felt attacked after pointing out you didn't like that characterization. That should be addressed.
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[kevinmarks] And there are implications for webmentions
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miklb_ toxicity comes from many sources and none of us are immune
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[kevinmarks] There is also a some/all going going on here on both sides of the argument. Tantek is saying that he saw a lot of hostile posting about wheaton and saying that it looked like a mob to him. Jon is saying that a lot of people criticising wheaton were trans and has legitimate reasons for doing so.
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miklb_ I'm reacting to the tweet that accused someone of anti trans language and that it occurred in the "indieweb chatroom"
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miklb_ I'm assuming now that is in -chat not in #indieweb as I didn't see that discussion in scroll back. That clarified part of my question.
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AngeloGladding trust/authenticity of digital identities is *the* software problem of our time. humans can't be tasked with it. humans should manage their *own* software that is tasked with the job.
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AngeloGladding the concept of a shared blocklist of PEOPLE is just terrible on its face.
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[kevinmarks] The excluded middle fallacy is the trope.
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[kevinmarks] Tantek characterised wheaton's opponents as a toxic mob. Jon said thet were trans people defending their community. Each of these can be true, even if there is no overlap between them. When there is, its even harder to unpick.
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miklb_ I do not disagree with that. But I believe strongly in codes of conduct, so when a serious allegation is made about the community, then I think it should be discussed and resolution found.
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miklb_ and that's about as serious an allegation as they come
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AngeloGladding serious allegations get likes
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AngeloGladding likes are currency
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AngeloGladding the currency is baseless
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AngeloGladding mastodon isn't a better twitter. it's practically the same exact thing.
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AngeloGladding the centralized aspects of the IW can and will be mobbed
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AngeloGladding so let's decentralize before that happens!
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@IndiegoHugo I’ve integrated the @RealFavicon @gulpjs workflow into the #IndieWeb Indiego PWA feature branch. The @____lighthouse rating is pretty amazing: https://pwa. http://dlvr.it/Qhtqwp (twitter.com/_/status/1036311826596691970)
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Anchakor https://nolanlawson.com/2018/08/31/mastodon-and-the-challenges-of-abuse-in-a-federated-system/
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Anchakor "I don’t have any good answers yet as to how to prevent another dogpiling incident like the one"
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Anchakor seems like webmentions would be as much susceptible
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Anchakor AngeloGladding: doesn't seem to me that decentralization has some aspect which would prevent mass harassment
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Anchakor (decentralization just by itself)
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[tantek] Yes that’s part of my concern. That decentralization itself doesn’t make that situation better. It may even make it worse.
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[tantek] Owning our own websites may help, with accountability, sense of ownership, agency etc
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petermolnar nah. wordpress in subdirectory, spin up a thousand, robot mob webmention is at your service, sir.
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[tantek] Right. We need to keep iterating on /Vouch and other possible protocols as well as tools for moderating Webmentions.
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petermolnar if you think about it, vouch, is, in it's deep essence, a chained whitelist.
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[jon] btw here’s my initial thoughts on some things Mastodon could do. at least some of it applies to the Indieweb as well. feedback welcome!
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[jon] https://scholar.social/@jon/100657592181411456
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Loqi [Jon Pincus] @bgcarlisle @Sargoth @creatrixtiara @polymerwitch @forktogether @anildash @darius @Are0h @Annalee would love your perspectives on this ...
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petermolnar the trouble with that if one link in that chain is too trusty
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petermolnar (btw today I realized Mastodon is what buddycloud and movim.eu should have been; they are basically the same thing, except those two put mastodon capabilities on top of XMPP and it never took off. Too early.)
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[tantek] Jon, feedback: glad you are here and glad you are sharing here. Thank you.
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aaronpk i've been thinking about vouch now that i'm following a bunch of mastodon accounts. I often see some people repost stuff from people I don't know, which is great for finding new people, and then I often "favorite" the reposted thing. this means essentially I have created a link from my site to someone's post where the only thing I know about them is the one post I saw. this could be a danger if the rest of
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aaronpk their posts are problematic and I wouldn't otherwise have linked to them.
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[tantek] Sorry I should have directed the /Vouch discussion to -dev
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[tantek] Because it’s not really any user usable yet
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aaronpk fair
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petermolnar [jon]: "somebody who had a history of causing harm" that is not a good enough reason. Ever. Unless that harm is happening/actively happened, this is like punishing someone for past crimes once they moved countries. I'm genuinely curious what actually happened on fediverse level - Twitter should not have been the reason to act.
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petermolnar [jon]: a completely different thing: is it possible to make "show more" open by default on scholar.social?
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petermolnar I didn't realize it's not the same toot on first load, seeing only the first line.
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[tantek] Jon, have opened your thread in a tab and will give it a longer read today. Thanks for posting.
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vilhalmer aaronpk: ah yes the milkshake duck problem
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petermolnar what?
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vilhalmer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkshake_Duck
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vilhalmer I can't believe this has a wikipedia article
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petermolnar where the hell these names come from?
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vilhalmer the tweet that spawned it is the fifth citation
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petermolnar "summing up a recent trend where popularity that comes via the Internet can be quickly washed away by discovering something troubling in a person's past" - that's... that's wrong. Right to be forgotten, anyone?
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vilhalmer it fits the current situation pretty well
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vilhalmer though I think the meaning has drifted, originally it only applied to someone who is currently actively bad, not someone who had done literally one problematic thing ever
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vilhalmer (and who hasn't)
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AngeloGladding Anchakor imo the primary tech failures in the Wheaton/Mastodon debate were an overburdened central administrator and low fidelity shared blocklist -- decentralization obviates the administrator and empowers first-class blocking tools -- ownership of identity lays the foundation for a trust system -- a mastodon account is a temporary space for groupthink so you can't even begin to implement an honest trust
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AngeloGladding system
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@ton_zylstra Could #indieauth help in presenting blog content at diff levels of access/social distance? https://www.zylstra.org/blog/2018/09/indieauth-and-social-distance-dependent-content/ #indieweb #stm18 (twitter.com/_/status/1036332465852432384)
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jgmac1106 great post [jon] going to use it as we make the case for designing for diversity and inclusion as an explicit princple. One thing to note all chatrooms are archived and considered “on record” except #chat while bias language isn’t allowed there either the expectations of community members is that nothing is quoted or shared from there
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jgmac1106 also let us know if you found the ways to use our CoC not helpful, we would rather try our internal systems before resorting to broadcast methods as default…If there are parts you found unclear let us know
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] just one thing - I think you meant “harassing language” not “bias language” (hard for anyone to avoid bias completely, see Wikipedia articles on various forms of bias, note “bias” is not in CoC AFAIK)
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jgmac1106 yes, better choice of words
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ The answer is yes @microdotblog is the simplest #IndieWeb setup. You pay $5 a month and off to the races…Then if you want to move onto your own url there will be plenty of people to help with the half you don’t know (yet). (http://jgregorymcverry.com/6399-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1036357045782552578)
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@ChrisAldrich Educators: Interested in making the internet your personal/prof social media platform? My favorite eg @jgmac1106 @wiobyrne @kimberlyhirsh @kfitz @johnjohnston @mrkrndvs @cathieleblanc @dancohen #DoOO #IndieWeb #edtech #digped #OEP https://indieweb.org/Indieweb_for_Education https://boffosocko.com/2018/09/02/examples-of-educators-in-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/1036372245034151936)
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@martijnvdven ↩️ This is something that has been discussed on and off over in the #indieweb community. One of the ideas being worked on are “vouches”. Where someone interacting with you shows you someone else you know has interacted with them before. A distilled web-of-trust. (twitter.com/_/status/1036381652564500480)
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@martijnvdven ↩️ That said, for more centralised communities (like the #indieweb chats or the Mastodon code repository) moderation is key! And I for one would love to talk more about that specifically in relation to public Slacks/Discords/IRC! (twitter.com/_/status/1036381738640007174)
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fyber Anyone using a simple markdown blog software that has support for webmentions?
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fyber I'm looking for something along the lines of Ghost where I can just type markdown in and have it both work and look good.
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[kevinmarks] You could use Hugo with a 3rd party webmention provider
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fyber I'm using Hexo (also an SSG) right now, but I kind of don't want to use a 3rd party provider.
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fyber I found this for grav though, not on the wiki yet.
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fyber https://github.com/Perlkonig/grav-plugin-webmention
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Loqi [Perlkonig] grav-plugin-webmention: Implements the Webmention protocol (with the Vouch extension) for the Grav CMS
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@AnnieMueller Yes yep yeah. POSSE. https://indieweb.org/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/1036394703346958338)
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