#indieweb 2018-09-24

2018-09-24 UTC
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AkyRhO Good morning Indieweb
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AkyRhO quick question, i was playing around with indielogin.com, but the snippet does not work, i get `This client_id is not registered` but i'm not sure where i'm supposed to register
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cweiske you have to replace example.com with your own domain
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ceemel cecemel
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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jacky o/
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AkyRhO hum, i feel like an idiot - thanks cweiske
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AkyRhO I'm still puzzled though
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AkyRhO when I hit indielogin.com with a specific state params
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AkyRhO it nevers comes back
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AkyRhO eg : i sent a state ('foobarbaz')
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AkyRhO and i got ba1d3ea96d8d05a4a7ef1864 in the response
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AkyRhO looks like md5 but even then it does not match what I sent
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AkyRhO sorry
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AkyRhO my bad
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AkyRhO forget I said anything
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sknebel good morning!
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jeremycherfas Hello sknebel
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@sl007 #transparency #indieweb : The german interior minister (Bundeshorst) says he will not publish Twitter and Facebook Direct Messages [Freedom of Information Act] – DMs "are different from email" https://fragdenstaat.de [ger] #VerklagDenMinister (twitter.com/_/status/1044188688098512898)
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb
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[schmarty] o/ good morning, Zegnat!
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Zegnat Slowly catching up with IndieWeb again, [schmarty]? Or still keeping it on the back burner? :)
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aaronpk Good morning! Can't believe IWC New York is right around the corner now!
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[jgmac1106] I know so much to do... But excited
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[jgmac1106] What time do you land? Want a ride?
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aaronpk Will PM you for transport logistics!
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Zegnat When entire press releases become photos on Twitter. Ugh. I hate that practice: https://twitter.com/telltalegames/status/1043252010999410689
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@telltalegames https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnpfRXSUYAEqIkY.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1043252010999410689)
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jacky k/b 44
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Loqi [indienews/de] New post: "Die Renaissance des Pingbacks" https://notiz.blog/2013/07/08/die-renaissance-des-pingbacks/
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[schmarty] Zegnat: trying to re-engage, particularly with IWC NYC this week!
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Zegnat Cool! If there is anything I can do remotely to help, let me know
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[schmarty] Zegnat: I’m afraid I’m out of the loop for NYC planning. jgmac1106 is running point. :)
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Zegnat I trust he too knows where to find me if necessary
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[schmarty] zegnat++ for being here
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Loqi zegnat has 38 karma in this channel over the last year (155 in all channels)
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[kevinmarks] what is this about? https://news.microsoft.com/2018/09/24/adobe-microsoft-and-sap-announce-the-open-data-initiative-to-empower-a-new-generation-of-customer-experiences/
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[kevinmarks] "With the Open Data Initiative, companies will be able to: Unlock and harmonize siloed data to create new value"
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[jgmac1106] What do folks think. Is it better to use a pseudonym for open source contributions? “Hide your real name in Open Source” @fommil https://medium.com/@fommil/hide-your-real-name-in-open-source-3d67e74a8c56
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[jgmac1106] Feels wrong but I am not looking for job in the industry
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Zegnat Though I am unsure how long you would be able to keep that up. It might be simple to change a name, but it isn’t simple to make sure it isn’t going to be brought back to your previous name.
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Zegnat There are countless reasons to be pseudonymous in communities. Being able to drop an “accused” name and start a fresh is definitely one.
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Zegnat No opinion on the hiring process thing. I haven’t gotten any feedback that suggests to me that potential employers have dropped me because of my GitHub account (or my famous oversharing on my homepage)
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snarfed speaking as a long time hiring manager in SF/silicon valley tech, an active github profile is absolutely, without reservation, a strong positive
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snarfed we look at them very often, and pretty deeply
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snarfed the key quote, “we are suspicious that you are too active on github and will not commit to this job”, comes from *investment banks*. i buy they have different values and believe that, but it's absolutely not true in tech, at least in general
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snarfed (i talk with many other hiring mgrs at both startups and big tech cos regularly, so i'm pretty well calibrated)
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snarfed short answer: if you want to work in tech, contribute to open source! put it on your resume. it will help way way more than it might hurt.
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sknebel the HN discussion also had people commenting that banks aren't usually like that
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sknebel I guess that doesn't necessarily require linking the account to your name in many cases though. you'd have to demonstrate the link to an employer somehow, but not the general public unless your role specifically requires it
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@mapkyca #Indiewebcamp Oxford https://www.marcus-povey.co.uk/2018/09/24/indiewebcamp-oxford/ (twitter.com/_/status/1044240147615748097)
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@szarka ↩️ 3/ I would definitely put my energy into something like Indieweb <https://indieweb.org/> instead of developing for Twitter, Facebook, G+, et al. (twitter.com/_/status/1044243710689628160)
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@schnarfed ↩️ @FarmerHayek @szarka @Timcast hundreds. https://indieweb.org/site-deaths#Past (twitter.com/_/status/1044250315875213312)
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gRegorLove Next events: IndieWebCamp NYC https://indieweb.org/2018/NYC, Homebrew Website Club Meetup https://indieweb.org/next-hwc, Code of conduct: https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct, log https://chat.indieweb.org/today
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jackjamieson Good morning IndieWeb
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gRegorLove Good morning, jackjamieson
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@henrahmagix IndieWeb is seriously cool: https://henryblyth.com/2018/09/24/indieweb.html (twitter.com/_/status/1044271303350517765)
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snarfed morning indieweb!
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jackjamieson Good morning snarfed@
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tantek__ wow https://twitter.com/ferenstein/status/979604582157266944
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@ferenstein “Will MySpace ever lose its monopoly?”!The Guardian in 2007. Via @nealunger https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2007/feb/08/business.comment https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZhBLDaUQAAPPbu.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/979604582157266944)
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tantek__ So it's Dreamforce week in SF again which has me wondering, how is so much $ poured into an "Address book as a service" silo, and how can we do these supposedly valuable things using our own websites instead?
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Zegnat What is Dreamforce?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Dreamforce" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Dreamforce is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek__ what is CRM
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CRM" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "CRM is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek__ also good morning snarfed and jackjamieson !
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@t ↩️ There is no trade-off. Why frame as “common platform” OR “federated community” when you can do BOTH? Post on your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere: https://indieweb.org/POSSE #ownyourdata, use #socialmedia to distribute & get feedback. http://tantek.com/t4wd1 (twitter.com/_/status/1044296239410556929)
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tantek__ Monday's a fine day to debunk artificial dichotomies.
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tantek__ Does anyone here do anything with CRM? Maybe there's just no indieweb / CRM overlap
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tantek__ huh the create wiki page links disappeared from Loqi e.g. above when Zegnat and I asked about Dreamforce and CRM
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Zegnat Disappeared? I see links I can click that will take me to the create-page form on the wiki
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tantek__ ohhh the links are hyperlinked text (create) in the logs
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tantek__ nm
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Zegnat As far as CRM stuff for personal use goes, I once looked at https://www.monicahq.com/. Saw it described as a “personal relationship manager”. Less customer based, more social interaction based, which makes more sense for personal use
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Zegnat Never stuck with me though
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tantek__ the state of address books is quite dismal in general. pretty much stuck in the 90s
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tantek__ Zegnat, “personal relationship manager” sounds like what FB tries to be
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Zegnat Ha. Maybe. Except this leaves the interactions to other platforms and is only about managing your side of a relationship.
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Zegnat Some people were also working to get CardDAV in Monica, so you would be able to use it as the synchronisation of your contacts between devices. Sadly I see that PR is still in limbo. Was one of the features I was really hoping for.
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AngeloGladding i'm currently reintegrating a carddav implementation into the canopy -- tested and working on iphone
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tantek__ Zegnat, from a user perspective (since this is #indieweb, not dev), why is CardDav relevant?
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AngeloGladding still doesn't get chat topics
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tantek__ what is chat?
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Loqi chat is informal messaging offered by numerous services, a few of which interoperate or bridge with each other, and also a set of brainstorms for what an amazing indieweb friendly chat web app/site could do https://indieweb.org/chat
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AngeloGladding i mean when and where to chat about what
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AngeloGladding -dev -meta -chat
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tantek__ what are chat topics?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "chat topics" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "chat topics is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek__ chat topics are /discuss#Chat_Channels
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Loqi ok
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tantek__ AngeloGladding: does https://indieweb.org/discuss#Chat_Channels help?
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Zegnat tantek__, it is relevant because it means it is a CRM that is useful for personal use. My phone gets to sync with it :) I didn’t pick the name of the synch standard – which is why I elaborated that it enabled synchronisation (for people who don’t recognise the jargon term)
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tantek__ Zegnat, interesting. Could you use it to sync between your phone and your personal site?
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tantek__ like the nicknames and URLs you use on your personal site?
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AngeloGladding ah tantek__ i think my heuristic will be no jargon
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AngeloGladding or did i just fail already
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tantek__ AngeloGladding: yes! that's a good heuristic :)
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Zegnat Sure! As you can self-host the CRM all the data is yours to use for whatever, including your website. It has an API too.
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tantek__ It's ok to talk about jargon here because that at least gives folks a good way to say hey that sounds like jargon could you take it to -dev?
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AngeloGladding sounds good
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tantek__ I mean on *your* website, not a theoretical "you"
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Zegnat On my website? No, that would be useless, as my website doesn’t mention other people at all
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AngeloGladding i added a contact with only a URL of aaronparecki.com and it synced automatically with https://dev.lahacker.net where his full hcard was imported, including his pgp key
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AngeloGladding *added a contact in my iphone
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Zegnat Nice!
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AngeloGladding photo too!
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Zegnat Do you store full cards? Or only specific information? (What I am really asking is: will it record my Hogwarts House or not?)
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AngeloGladding i first cache every resource fetched
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AngeloGladding but sanitize and store only immediately used pieces in the main active databases
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AngeloGladding so your Hogwarts could be rendered in my address book at a later date
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AngeloGladding but not as of now
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Zegnat Darn. Haha
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AngeloGladding now when my directory/search engine goes back up -- it renders *everything* from *everyone*
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AngeloGladding i'm working to put the aggregator tech back into the core canopy code base
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AngeloGladding this means that when i add zegnat.net as a contact in my iphone it will discover your hogwarts
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AngeloGladding which i wish i had shown you guys when it was up but alas it will be soon enough
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AngeloGladding but basically it uses rel=me and PageRank to discover your "complete" identity using any starting point
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AngeloGladding i can't remember which of yours was deemed "primary" Zegnat
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AngeloGladding so in that case i'm storing more than just full cards -- i'm storing "super" cards
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AngeloGladding :)
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AngeloGladding relevant
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AngeloGladding how do you guys feel about a directory scraping and making searchable your hcards?
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AngeloGladding and how do you feel about me as an individual rerepresenting hcard data?
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AngeloGladding i grab and store licenses found on pages but my experience is that the licenses in the footer is not accurate of all content found on a given page
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AngeloGladding anyway.. i certainly hope y'all don't mind some webmentions coming to your homepages in the near term
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Zegnat I think I wouldn’t rehost profiles (h-cards or otherwise) because it would be too easy for me to end up misrepresenting someone. You may miss someone moving to a different country, you may still be making a phone number public that they have unlisted, they may change their name or other very personal details where you are suddenly misgendering or listing people’s photos with their deadnames
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Zegnat I haven’t given it much thought, AngeloGladding, but that is my first gut feeling
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AngeloGladding Zegnat yeah it's a complex problem that i'm not taking lightly
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AngeloGladding i think with [private] webmentions and audiences something reasonable might be possible
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AngeloGladding i want to go and friend/follow/identify/associate/whatever with everyone, meatspace or indieweb or anything in between, and then *do* something with that address book
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AngeloGladding i'd like to be able to render the gender data somehow
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AngeloGladding i obviously don't want to hurt anyone in the process
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AngeloGladding but i think that the risks are worth overcoming to get the "social network" back onto "my own site"
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AngeloGladding like i said i'll be potentially hammering your sites again as i go back to work on the crawler
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AngeloGladding but i never heard a peep from you guys last time so mark one for resilience
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snarfed sounds like https://indieweb.org/nicknames-cache , https://indieweb.org/follower , https://indieweb.org/blogroll
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Zegnat aaronpk, has pages for the people he adds to his name cache / contacts list / whatever. Those also send webmentions to the people they are about. But he doesn’t make those public, which is the big thing.
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@jgmac1106 We would like to thank @DataIntelTech for becoming an #IndieWebCamp NYC Sponsor covering the Thursday night meet up. If you have search needs at cloud scale please reach out to a trusted sponsor.. (http://jgregorymcverry.com/7351-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1044313227839049729)
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snarfed AngeloGladding: also i assume you've seen https://indiemap.org/ ? it has a ton of h-cards, very queryable. more of a dataset than personal address book, but still.
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Loqi Indie Map is a public IndieWeb social graph and dataset. 2300 sites, 5.7M pages, 380GB HTML with microformats2. Social graph API and interac...
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AngeloGladding snarfed i seeded my crawler with the identities found in your map
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AngeloGladding thanks!
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Zegnat Also, as for people not giving “a peep” when you have been crawling them, there are also multiple people here who aren’t running any sort of analytics at all ;)
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snarfed AngeloGladding: welcome!
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AngeloGladding Zegnat that is very true
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Zegnat I have no analytics. I didn’t know you crawled me. I don’t notice other people who like testing h-card parsing with my homepage. Didn’t even notice hitting #1 on Hacker News. Real bliss, hahaha
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Loqi ahahaha
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aaronpk I tried making a carddav API so that i could get my website contacts into my phone but I couldn't figure out the carddav part!
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AngeloGladding there he is!
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AngeloGladding i'll trade carddav voodoo tricks for screengrabs of your private social network tools
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AngeloGladding it wasn't pretty -- i had to basically reverse engineer using a proxy
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AngeloGladding but.. it finally worked
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AngeloGladding and it feels so right
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tantek__ how to implement a jargon is definitely -dev :)
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tantek__ aaronpk :)
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snarfed 'canoe regret', n. replying to a twitter thread that then continues for dozens or hundreds more tweets that you care less and less about until you'd do anything to get it out of your mentions and notifications, stat.
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snarfed i'm confident kevinmarks already coined a term and wrote a blog post for this a decade ago. where is he when i need him.
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tantek__ snarfed, not a problem when you use the old API and prune the canoe to just the person you're replying to
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tantek__ oops that should have been in dev. I got dev-sniped in #indieweb!
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@sdepolo ↩️ Curious if you have ideas on how the #indieweb movement can excite those leaving social networks in droves to build out a decentralized web? @benwerd has a post here I'm looking to build on: https://www.godaddy.com/garage/indie-websites-can-set-you-free-from-the-constraints-of-social-media/. (twitter.com/_/status/1044325469204566016)
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@tmcw i love the indieweb community for its idealism, but on the flip side they really push a lot of specs & standards without accompanying implementations (twitter.com/_/status/1044329476966895616)
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[eddie] Interestingly that tweet seems focused on h-cards: https://twitter.com/tmcw/status/1044329687609040896?s=20
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@tmcw i can, of course, add some classes to my homepage and make my name on http://macwright.org an h-card, but i'm really struggling to understand why i'd do that, given that there are almost no h-card consumers. (twitter.com/_/status/1044329687609040896)
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[eddie] tantek: you’re king of implementations before specs. Maybe you would have a good response? I don’t have enough knowledge in that area to respond well
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Zegnat I think the tweets (posted another follow up on h-entry) are much more about microformats than indieweb. The IndieWeb standards (Micropub, Webmention, IndieAuth) are actively being used and have multiple implementations within the community (and slowly: outside the core community)
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@Glenn_IRS IndieWeb Talk for WordCamp Riverside? https://glenn.zucman.com/blog/wordcamp-riverside/ https://t.co/EdWxeCRq9p (twitter.com/_/status/1044331118076579846)
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Zegnat Example of a thing where I don’t think I would be able to fit the answer in a tweet though :/
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[eddie] Ohhh that’s an interesting distinction, Zegnat. IndieWeb uses Microformats and there is some intersection but that overlap doesn’t make them the same. We do push Microformats a lot though so that Webmentions are enhanced.
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[eddie] 280characters—
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Zegnat Yes, h-entry is definitely consumed as part of many webmention checking code.
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Zegnat h-entry (and theoretically other objects) are also the base vocabulary for micropub
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Zegnat The real question is, what does “almost” mean in “almost no consumers”... the same can be said for a lot of other formats. If only Google reads your microdata, that’s also “almost no consumers”, right?
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Zegnat But I am going to put myself to bed now :) Have a good one all!
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[eddie] Hmm okay. I might send a response around webmentions considering they are a primary form of consuming of microformats for IndieWeb stuff
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[eddie] Night, Zegnat!
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tantek__ [eddie] clearly it means we need to better document consuming implementations on the wiki pages for each of those!
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tantek__ zegnat, yes, when you say webmention is actively being used (consumed), then you're also saying microformats (at least h-entry and h-card) are actively being used (consumed)
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tantek__ that would be a good reply to that thread
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@EddieHinkle ↩️ Great question! There are definitely a bunch of specs, but many of them attempt to solve some issue among several implementations before they become a spec. As far as Microformats, the IndieWeb community uses it a lot because it enables one of the… https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/09/24/21/reply/ (twitter.com/_/status/1044333000413122566)
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tantek__ eddie++
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Loqi eddie has 17 karma in this channel over the last year (64 in all channels)
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@aaronpk ↩️ ahh I'm going to just miss you! But it would be great to see you and/or @balloob at IndieWebCamp Nürnberg (Oct 20-21) or Berlin (Nov 3-4)! https://indieweb.org/Events#October (twitter.com/_/status/1044351175053598720)
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