#indieweb 2018-12-04

2018-12-04 UTC
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kisik21 OH WAIT
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kisik21 I just realized
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kisik21 that I leaked my Telegraph and Twitter API keys
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kisik21 oops!
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kisik21 snarfed: leaked an API key that granary uses for twitter, any potential damage?
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kisik21 oh, snarfed isn't online
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kisik21 !tell snarfed leaked an API key that granary uses for Twitter, any potential damage?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kisik21 aaronpk: could you please revoke my telegraph.p3k.io API key? can't find a button
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aaronpk kisik21: done, you have a new key
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kisik21 thanks!
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kisik21 I have a lucky key, it starts with 777
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[davidmead] !tell tantek I made updates to https://indieweb.org/migration about SSL
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[jgmac1106] davidmean++
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Loqi davidmean has 1 karma over the last year
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[cleverdevil] https://zac.onl/2QxsCTv
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[cleverdevil] Another browser bites the dust :/
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[jgmac1106] davidmead++
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Loqi davidmead has 1 karma over the last year
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[jgmac1106] but it will be mentioned in meta, folks will see it
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[jgmac1106] ...wow!!
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[jgmac1106] hey stock is 3x right now so they are doing somethign right
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[cleverdevil] I’m not a windows guy, but I’m sad that there will be a major exit from an engine perspective.
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[cleverdevil] We are basically down to Firefox, Chrome (and related), and Safari.
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[cleverdevil] And Safari has the same roots so it’s not that far afield.
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[davidmead] Is Opera Chrome based now too?
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[jgmac1106] wonders if there are parallels in history to the consolidation of other reading and writing technologies. Did book binding for example get concentrated?
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[jgmac1106] now if they could only make the mobile browsers act like real browsers
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[asuh] Oh no, that is not good. Edge was never great but Microsoft held it back by keeping it from being evergreen or opening it up more.
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[asuh] I’m wondering (and hoping) if this has to do with them allowing Chrome to be installable on Windows 10 in S Mode since you can’t install a third party browser
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[jgmac1106] Microsoft called it quits on mobile and owning the desktop isn't a priority.
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[asuh] ^^ only with IE and Trident/EdgeHTML based browsers. They are full-in on native apps, however.
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pino_ There's a broken link on https://indieweb.org/IRC "More detailed user registration command information can be found in Freenode's FAQ"
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pino_ I would have joined the wiki to fix this 404, but Of the eight rel="me" links on my website, indielogin supports none.
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aaronpk thanks, fixed
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aaronpk you don't have a twitter, github, email, pgp or indieauth link?
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pino_ I have Twitter and GitHub. But I know people who don't have Twitter and are boycotting GitHub since the sale to Microsoft, so I wanted to see how it supported other means, particularly email. How would one expose email to indielogin w/o exposing it to UBE operations' spiders?
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pino_ I also know people who live in countries where neither Twitter nor GitHub operates.
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aaronpk the best solution is to have your own indieauth server on your website, so that it can be entirely under your control
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[jgmac1106] !tell [chrisaldrich] you better be volunteering for the advisory board of https://samizdat.jgregorymcverry.com. Thinking a meeting maybe once a quarter, twice a year online
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Your name Here
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pino_ aaronpk: I just tossed selfauth on my site and called it a day; thanks
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pino_p From https://indieweb.org/recommendation_engine "None currently." :(
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pino_p I've tried to recommend IndieWeb technologies to those affected by a recent Tumblr policy change and the G+ shutdown. But many claim that IndieWeb's lack of a recommendation engine is a deal breaker. How is a writer quitting a silo in favor of IndieWeb supposed to find other people that might be interested in reading his or her website?
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aaronpk hm, micro.blog's "Discover" page is close, since it's a curated page about a specific community, but that is definitely a challenge
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[jgmac1106] by writing good content
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pino_p I'm referring to ways to get others to discover your good content
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pino_p (without having to buy ad space from a silo like AdWords)
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[jgmac1106] I know, but good content is 95% of discovery
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[jgmac1106] the other 5% yes we have not solved
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[jgmac1106] but I watch networks wane and grow, they are made up of people connecting people,
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[jgmac1106] I am also trying to do stuff on my website like: https://jgmac1106homepage.glitch.me/following.html
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[jgmac1106] So I know @pino_p does good content and @pino_p likes X so I will add X to my social reader
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[jgmac1106] you can also use syndication tools like https://indiweb.xyz to curate content and communities
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jgmac1106 and goold ‘ole search: https://snarfed.org/2018-11-30_indieweb-google-custom-search-engine
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jgmac1106 also see what [sebsel] is doing with mapping 2nd degree likes as recommendation engines..getting close to cool tools
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pino_p You mean https://indieweb.xyz/ ?
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jgmac1106 yeah hasn’t taken off but quite doable and forkable for any community. A group of tumblr ex-pats…if one of them had enough knowledge could set somethign like that up
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jgmac1106 quick video of what the experience can look like on mobile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwECN4uVuHg
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pino_p Thanks. I'll try to pass this on
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Loqi [indienews] New post: https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/12/03/15/note/
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Loqi [indienews] New post: https://realize.be/notes/1672
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[jgmac1106] Working on the 3-5 year road map for Wikimedia Foundation. We want to add Indielogin and getting webmentions or a micropub client to note edits on your own website
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[jgmac1106] Can anyone add technical expertise to etherpad when ready? Any other building blocks we should shoot for?
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Zegnat Those sound like the main specs that have come out of the IndieWeb community. microformats if they want to get into that are ofcourse also an option
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[jgmac1106] Thx, will post etherpad when we make them interest from their UX team: badges, Indielogin, and webmenstions
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[jgmac1106] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/badges
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[jgmac1106] Started with badges, webmention and Indielogin pads coming later today
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[eddie] Just a reminder indielogin is just a service. IndieAuth is the distributed OAuth 2 extension
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sknebel [eddie]++
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Loqi [eddie] has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (81 in all channels)
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[grantcodes] Not sure how much I believe those microsoft switching to chromium stories. There is nothing official and edge is actually really nice to use, plus it's fairly deeply integrated into the os with installable PWAs and everything
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[jgmac1106] Welcome [rockymcrockerson]
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[jgmac1106] yes, in the notes we said Indielogin for users which requires the OAuth 2 extension for IndieAuth...if that sounds incorrect tell me in /dev
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aaronpk [jgmac1106]: if you are specifically talking about indielogin.com then we should talk more about that because that is a service I run and if you have uptime requirements around it for another project that is something we need to coordinate on
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aaronpk if you're talking about supporting indieauth directly, (which is the better long-term option imo) then that's something that wikimedia would run/write without my involvement
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[jgmac1106] yes that is what I mean, IndieAuth
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[jgmac1106] posted the pad in dev
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mlncn yes the Tumblr excommunication of many blogs broadly in the queer and/or erotica space - https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3mjxg/apple-tumblr-porn-nsfw-adult-content-banned - could be a major boost for the IndieWeb-- if someone can put together a platform (i know, not very indieweb) that just does a centralized recommendation engine for n
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mlncn ow, geared toward the exiled communities, with everyone striving to be more indieweb so it can't happen again
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aaronpk tumblr is more than a recommendation engine though isn't it?
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aaronpk I thought the reader aspect was a pretty huge part as well
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[jgmac1106] [aaronpk] I am getting quite a few DMs on Twitter from Queer Allies saying variants of we "would IndieWeb but need a recommendation engine to find each other"
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aaronpk interesting. [jgmac1106] are you familiar enough with the platform to document/screenshot how that works?
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[jgmac1106] not my community so I don't want to speculate
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mlncn yeah was hoping the reader part could be RSS
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mlncn but yeah, also not a space i'm really familiar with
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aaronpk mlncn: RSS is an encoding format, not a reader
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[jgmac1106] no...I have only ever had one Tumblr blog for a hot minute
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Zegnat That seems to be the big question that comes up all the time. When everyone is on their own island, how do you handle discovery between the islands. I would donate some programming time to whoever has a good solution. I have very few ideas in that space
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[jgmac1106] I think for vulnerable populations they also want islands with big walls where they control the docks as well
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aaronpk i'm only familiar with the aspect of tumblr that acts as a reader, where you can follow a bunch of accounts, then comment/repost/etc those posts
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aaronpk i'd be super interested in seeing how the recommendation aspect works
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aaronpk ok just logged in to tumblr and I see my main feed, plus "recommended blogs" in the sidebar. is it that?
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[jgmac1106] I think when people say "recomendation engine" they maybe mean this
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Zegnat I think it also started recommending stuff in the feed, last I logged in to Tumblr
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aaronpk there's also something called "radar"
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aaronpk lol ffs the one image under "radar" was blocked by this airport lounge wifi
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[jgmac1106] then when you click on a hashtag you get related hashtags:
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[asuh] That reminds me of “Trends” and “Browse for stuff” in Google Reader, except in a card layout
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aaronpk okay I captured what I see https://indieweb.org/recommendation_engine#Tumblr
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chrisaldrich Zegnat, I think that Brad Enslen and KicksCondor have been doing a lot of thinking about that discovery question. Perhaps they've got something worthwhile?
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[asuh] I would occasionally go to those two sections on the top left in Google Reader to see what I’m missing
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[jgmac1106] then you can sort by post type under each hashtag
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Zegnat I wonder if we need the equivalent of maciej’s Google Doc where “fandom” people wrote about stuff they needed to switch from digg to pinboard. (https://blog.pinboard.in/2011/10/the_fans_are_all_right/)
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chrisaldrich It's more manual and slow, but a lot of the discovery piece for me was reading others and what they reposted in addition to who else was following/commenting and then following those people.
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aaronpk okay so looking around this is more than just a recommendation engine
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Zegnat (Or maybe it was Delicious?)
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chrisaldrich Silos can do a great job of discovery recommendations because they have all the data. It seems that for a decentralized set up, doing this in an automated way becomes more difficult for lack of the centralized data.
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aaronpk data is just one part, it's also an interface that is easily browseable that can also publish to your own site
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chrisaldrich Perhaps its a major piece that microsub could take in and make suggestions to users based on aggregate use?
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aaronpk I have a few ideas of how to split this up into microsub so that the reader apps and reader servers can iterate on each part separately
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[jgmac1106] I am working on a piece now after convo with @pino last night 4 strategies for discovery on IndieWeb 1: produce good content, 2: build a followers page for others, 3: use search, 4: syndicate to community space
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aaronpk syndicating to community spaces is super powerful as well, but that requires active effort from the author whereas a lot of the "recommendation" style things do not
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chrisaldrich Almost all of the recommendations I've ever seen in social silos occur either in a sidebar or inline in what I would consider the reader piece of their functionality.
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mlncn i think there's a lot of interesting things that could be done as far as a distributed recommendation engine but i'd say that it's worth 'faking' something, several things, when there's a chance of meeting the needs of a community. Indeed, allowing there to be multiple 'centralized' recommendation engines that individual sites can opt into (the re
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mlncn commendation service and the individual site have to accept each other, probably) would be a contending long-term solution as well as short-term dodge
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[jgmac1106] ....but the surprising number of LGBTQ DMing me with "we want to IndieWeb but can't makes me think it is a vulnerable, we want a safe space issue as well. Private posting
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[jgmac1106] I am recording a little youtube video directed at Tumblr crowd to show how social reader is similar(ish)
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[jgmac1106] [aaronpk] yes we need lightweight syndication plugins, radial checkboxes for users. If they just added the link and didn't have to worry about "u-synidcation"
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Zegnat Is that really is, [jgmac1106]? Most of my LGBTQ circle have no problem posting pseudonymously on places like Tumblr, they do not actually post things to private groups only.
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Zegnat s/is,/it,/
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aaronpk [jgmac1106]: u-syndication is the underlying mechanism, but of course nobody should be writing that by hand
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aaronpk I haven't even written that myself in years since I have syndication buttons for everything
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[jgmac1106] I think [grantcodes] h-card directory and micropub clients publishing a follow post when you add to microsub reader can help with recommendation of people
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Zegnat In which case I wonder if private posting really is the hold-up. Or if they feel they cannot have the same privacy as offered by a big social network when they have to go out and register a domain name. Which is fair, and we might want to look into options for that
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[jgmac1106] also a call back why I want to encourage a p-category for interes in h-cards for improved discoverrey
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[asuh] Is Indieweb.org hosted on its own VPS?
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aaronpk yes
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[jgmac1106] @zegnat without getting into too much about DMs it was mixed, some from activist who want it for people young and old who question their sexual identity....and others who want to find weir fetishes....world's a beautiful place
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chrisaldrich Some of the recommendation engine pieces (and their display portions) act essentially like positive or benign adtech (advertising others' based on potential shared interest); design around how it's built should take care of the negative consequences that adtech might bring to such tools.
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[asuh] Going along with [jgmac1106]’s thought about privacy, are people looking for another app/space/site to sign up to that allows non-public facing posting?
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[jgmac1106] but everyone has called it "recommendation engine" have no idea why
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[jgmac1106] yes
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[asuh] What privacy does micro.blog have built in?
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[jgmac1106] you use Slack to be private
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[asuh] I get a little more privacy because I use Slack, but I don’t use Slack to be private, per se
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Zegnat That’s interesting. My tumblr crowd doesn’t match that at all. They are happy with public facing as long as identity is kept secret.
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[jgmac1106] I am sure it is in roadmap though
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Zegnat People who want to privately share are on Discord (which is really just the non-techy Slack, I guess)
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[jgmac1106] ahhhhh....interesting.....never thought about the lack of anonymity from my own domain....Privledge
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chrisaldrich I don't recall who, but last week someone in chat asked about what "web thinking" was. I've always understood the broader idea generally, but never seen it physically laid out. Jon Udell does a pretty solid job of putting it down into words here: https://blog.jonudell.net/2011/01/24/seven-ways-to-think-like-the-web/
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[eddie] Regarding micro.blog, to date manton has not expressed any desire to create private spaces. So I would not expect that to be the right space
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[jgmac1106] an Indielogin anonomyzer for Indielogin?? Sign in with your domain, get a fake domain you can use elsewhere?
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[asuh] [eddie] that’s what I was wondering and also why I asked about indieweb being on a VPS. Probably not a good idea but Indieweb’s VPS could theoretically host an instance of something like Mastodon or something else that could provide some of this
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[jgmac1106] Discord is Slack for Gamers...not non-techy...just getting invaded with G+ and now Tumblr refugees
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aaronpk I thought all the registrars have to do free domain privacy now
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[asuh] aaronpk: last I knew, GoDaddy has an upcharge for privacy
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[jgmac1106] [aaronpk] some people may not be able to afford multiple domains, one for themselves and one for pseudonym.....
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aaronpk huh, namecheap used to charge but now they do free forever and I assumed it was because GDPR because it changed around that time
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Zegnat Oh, no, I don’t think EU has forced that on ICANN/registrars just yet
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aaronpk [jgmac1106]: yeah thats definitely a concern
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Zegnat sknebel might know better
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[jgmac1106] especially a young gay kid in Oklahoma who doesn't want to ask his Evangelical Born_again father for the credit card
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Zegnat Yep. Though they could probably use cweiske’s anonymous indieauth service
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aaronpk ultimately though any time you're in someone else's space, you're going to have to play by their rules. today tumblr is changing the rules, but there's no guarantee that if you sign up for something today that looks like it's the right space they won't change their mind tomorrow
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Zegnat Though that is hard to _discover_ :P
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[jgmac1106] sorry for the stereotypes against Oklahoma, and Homophobic evangelical born again preachers (but only a little sorry)
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aaronpk which is why domains are the closest thing we have to playing by our own rules right now, but even there have been a few cases where registrars or the us gov has taken down a domain
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[asuh] aaronpk: that’s spot on but the normals don’t think in this way. that’s a public education issue that’s needed. most are just looking for a place to be with their peers
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[jgmac1106] What is anonymous indieauth service?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "anonymous indieauth service" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "anonymous indieauth service is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106] @zegnat whats the name have a link?
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snarfed [jgmac1106]: i fell prey to the same stereotypes a bit in https://snarfed.org/2018-09-04_i-dont-hang-out-on-the-internet#Bible+belt :(
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Loqi snarfed: kisik21 left you a message 18 hours, 10 minutes ago: leaked an API key that granary uses for Twitter, any potential damage?
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aaronpk [asuh]: the problem is people keep hopping from one service to the next, each new thing promising the best intentions and then realizing all the problems that come with hosting other people's content and eventually having to change their minds
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[eddie] Stereotypes are tricky, wether they are about race, gender or faith. Definitely better to try more general discussions.
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[asuh] aaronpk: agreed
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kisik21 snarfed: please ignore the message above, it's outdated
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[jgmac1106] [snarfed] can you fragment link to any word on any post?
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snarfed [jgmac1106]: yup https://indieweb.org/fragmention
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[jgmac1106] okay it is fragmention...I thought somehow you just typed #bible+belt and it did it automatically
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snarfed well it does, via fragmention code
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[jgmac1106] [aaronpk] I never know how to add files to wiki but feel free to use the other screenshots of Tumblr recommendation
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aaronpk other screenshots?
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[jgmac1106] ohhh you are on IRC you don't see Slack screenshots
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[jgmac1106] just file names
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aaronpk ah crap gotta fix that still
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[jgmac1106] my post from 12:55 to 12:58, grabbed all the ways tumblr recommends people
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[jgmac1106] post type selection is a nice interface as well
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[asuh] [jgmac1106] maybe this page allows image uploads? https://indieweb.org/Special:Upload
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[jgmac1106] it does...I need to get back to work...just hopped into recommendation Tumblr talk bc of the DMs I am getting
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[asuh] Interesting, Ghost has responded to Tumblr’s news: https://ghost.org/vs/tumblr/
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[jgmac1106] Ghost lost me on their five year anniversary post "WordPress for the rest of us" became "we can't compete on convenience so we are only going for the super technical niche...who the web is for anyway" left a bad taste in my mouth
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sknebel re privacy and domain, "WHOIS doesn't have full details by default anymore" is a *long* way from meaningful privacy against someone who wants to find out
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aaronpk could you document some of the other attack vectors someone can use to find the owner of a domain?
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aaronpk what is domain privacy?
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Loqi Domain privacy refers to privacy concerns around the contact information that is publicly available with each domain name registration https://indieweb.org/domain_privacy
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sknebel would have to research in detail, but biggest thing probably is "can you trust the service providers (domain registrar, hoster, ...) to not reveal info during e.g. a pretend copyright complaint"
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aaronpk 👍
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sknebel (or of course worst case an actual legal complaint, because you wrote something that can be construed to be insulting/... to somebody else)
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sknebel since you pay, they need to know who you are (unlike a free silo account)
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Zegnat !tell jgmac1106 Anonymous auth over IndieAuth: https://commentpara.de/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[jgmac1106] What is comment parade>
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Loqi [jgmac1106]: Zegnat left you a message 6 minutes ago: Anonymous auth over IndieAuth: https://commentpara.de/
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "comment parade>" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "comment parade> is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106] What is comment parade?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "comment parade" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "comment parade is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106] [https://commentpara.de Comment Parade] is a tool for leaving anonymous webmentions. You can submit a webmention from the site or use the site url and the IndueAuth protocol to sign into a site to leave a webmention,
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[jgmac1106] Comment Parade [https://commentparad.de] is a tool for leaving anonymous webmentions. You can submit a webmention from the site or use the site url and the IndueAuth protocol to sign into a site to leave a webmention.
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[jgmac1106] I quit
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[jgmac1106] Comment Parade is a [https://commentparad.de tool] for leaving anonymous webmentions. You can submit a webmention from the site or use the site url and the IndueAuth protocol to sign into a site to leave a webmention.
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Loqi ok
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[jgmac1106] third time is a charm
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sknebel [jgmac1106]: there is already a page for it, please make a redirect
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[jgmac1106] grrrr
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[jgmac1106] damn
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[jgmac1106] What is commentparade?
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Loqi commentpara.de is an anonymous commenting system for the indieweb https://indieweb.org/commentparade
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[jgmac1106] [[Comment Parade]] is [[commentparade]]
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[jgmac1106] batting a thousand here folks
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[jgmac1106] #redirect [[Comment Parade]] is [[commentparade]]
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[jgmac1106] #redirect Comment Parade is commentparade
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[jgmac1106] [sknebel] what I am doing wrong based on this: https://indieweb.org/redirect_short_cut_thingy_for_the_wiki
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sknebel once you've created the page you can't use loqi anymore
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[jgmac1106] thx Sven
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[jgmac1106] guessing the capitalization and spacing whims of people is hard
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jalcine afternoon indieweb
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[tantek] What is quora
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Loqi [tantek]: [davidmead] left you a message 19 hours, 58 minutes ago: I made updates to https://indieweb.org/migration about SSL
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Loqi Quora is a question and answer silo https://indieweb.org/Quora
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[tantek] Quora << Criticism: https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/03/tech/quora-hack-data-breach/index.html
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jalcine s/SSL/TLS/g ;)
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Loqi ok, I added "Criticism: https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/03/tech/quora-hack-data-breach/index.html" to the "See Also" section of /Quora https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=54454&oldid=18882
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[jgmac1106] Wow all those people had all their incorrect answers stolen... Be like cheating off dumbest kid in class
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[schmarty] adactio++ for https://adactio.com/links/14572
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Loqi adactio has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (6 in all channels)
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