#indieweb 2018-12-05

2018-12-05 UTC
[kevinmarks], [eddie], [tantek], [jgmac1106] and [asuh] joined the channel
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[asuh]
what is movim
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Loqi
movim is an XMPP based social network frontend with microblog-like web publishing features, written in PHP and JavaScript https://indieweb.org/movim
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Loqi
[Ruth [☕️ 👩🏻‍💻📚📖✍🏻🍵]] Good evening, I have some thoughts that are kind of meta to the fediverse and apply into society more broadly. One public toot, then I'll thread 🔓 So... I get torn between two principles & I think they're a reason why shared solutions like masto a...
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jalcine
interesting thread on mastodon about the costs of the indieweb (or _a_ indieweb), how it might be gatekeeping etc
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viaken
I don't think her argument is against the/an indieweb, so much as it is against "there can only be indieweb". I don't see any harm in both being available.
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KartikPrabhu
well this indieweb really never says that so sounds like a "strawman".
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KartikPrabhu
things like POSSE and backfeed exist for exactly that reason
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jalcine
I didn't say it was anti-indieweb
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jalcine
but there can be some implicit cost
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[eddie]
Yeah I wouldn’t count that as anti-indieweb. Obviously domain cost is a hurtle, but besides that some type of internet co-ops using IndieWeb compatible tech would totally work with where we’re heading
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[eddie]
I guess technically a co-op like that could manage everyone’s domains based on the funds they raise
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[eddie]
I think it is a great thread that points out some needed pain points to think through when working to shift people off the corporate internet
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jacky
!tell [eddie] re: indieweb co-ops; I deeply agree. I have a friend who works a lot in the IPFS space and I've wondered if there was some way to bridge the IndieWeb into it (although IPFS doesn't allow for "fixed" naming IIRC)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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swentel
good morning
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Loqi
guten morgen
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swentel
anyone has 5 minutes of time to read a small post I'm preparing ? Want to make sure it makes sense. It explains what the minimal steps are to send a webmention with the drupal module I maintain. You can ignore the drupal specifics, just want to make sure I'm actually right :)
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swentel
maybe I'm even adding too many steps already
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Ruxton
waves can do
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sl0071
good morning / *waves can do*
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Loqi
[swentel] Send me a webmention with Drupal!
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[jgmac1106]
In step one I would remove sentence am about overview
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[jgmac1106]
That is a different task and therefore different step
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[jgmac1106]
Readers understand tutorials more when it is one task per step
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[jgmac1106]
Overall great job,. Right on target for audience
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sl0071
Agreed. Nice piece !
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[jgmac1106]
I might have made microformats it's own post since there are not technically needed for webmentions
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sknebel
swentel: minor stylistic thing: a few times there's a space before question mark.
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swentel
yeah I've been wondering about the microformats too, but I'd like to be able to figure out what exactly I'm getting
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sknebel
also, does your module not accept mentions that aren't in a microformats property, or is it just something you choose to highlight here? (" You can vary between the 'u-in-reply-to', 'u-like-of' or 'u-repost-of' class.")
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swentel
instead of just having a webmention
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swentel
sknebel, it accepts it
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sknebel
I'd maybe remove that quoted bit and just go for a reply for now, and then mention the other types at the end or in a second article, with more details?
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swentel
hmm that might be a good idea
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[jgmac1106]
Also step one says I add an mf2 module but then it seems you want me to manually add them in step three
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swentel
yeah, you enable the module first
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swentel
and then you need to configure it a bit
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swentel
it's not plugin and play (yet)
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swentel
s/plugin/play
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[jgmac1106]
Maybe change that to "Configure Microformats Module"
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swentel
and same for step 3, configure webmention module then
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swentel
makes it very clear
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[jgmac1106]
Less inference for the reader... Great job...
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sl0071
Zegnat - have read' back - https://chat.indieweb.org/2018-12-04 "I would donate some programming time to whoever has a good solution" - how about adding it to "ideas" for https://indieweb.org/2019/Vlissingen#Planning :
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[jgmac1106]
Hey if you ever want to hop on a video chat and walk ne through install we can make it a tutorial series
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swentel
ok, cool, thanks for the feedback!
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swentel
yeah, I really like to make tutorials one day
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sl0071
Zegnat It would be amazing if we could just have some tasks to hack together for the week with tasks like "recommendation engine" / "discovery" / "search" / "indiereader ui" and so - off yourse with a good remote collaboration tool
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swentel
ok time to throw this out :)
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[jgmac1106]
Let's book out time in December when I am in between semesters... And your performance is done
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[jgmac1106]
Series of 3-5 minute videos. Probably 76-10 of them. I can handle the editing if you can be teqcher
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swentel
sknebel, I've added a note at the bottom with a like to https://indieweb.org/responses, but the main example is now a reply. Clearer step now!
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swentel
s/like/link
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swentel
I have time off last 2 weeks of december , so might work
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[jgmac1106]
Perfect. Take 10-15 minutes a day. Or 2-3 hours q'all at once
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[jgmac1106]
Could do special vHWC-Europe... Special as in not Mumble
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[jgmac1106]
So I run no analytics don't care, but Glitch does. Samizdat has close to 10k uniques in under a week...ight be on to something
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Zegnat
[jgmac1106], can it show you if people have been using/remixing it?
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Zegnat
sl0071, I am not the ideas-man for it. I am unsure how I would make recommendations work. So I really can’t do much more than pledge support
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[jgmac1106]
Seven remixes... Yeah it's just a UI on GitHub commits in a way
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[jgmac1106]
@zegnat do you mean in a theoretical or technical sense of "make work"
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Zegnat
On recommendations you mean, [jgmac1106]? I would love to get recommendations for blogs myself, and would love to help develop something that enables that. I just have no idea on a way that makes sense and matches our (my) principles.
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bradenslen
Good morning Indieweb
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sknebel
good morning
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bradenslen
!tell chrisaldrich re: discovery engine. You might explore https://yacy.net/en/index.html if you can put an instance up on your own server it might help
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bradenslen
!tell chrisaldrich correction that should be re. recommendation engine
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bradenslen
Is that a real page? You're going to get me stuck down the wiki rabbit hole again! :-)
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Zegnat
Everything is a real page, bradenslen
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bradenslen
Ah found it. Wiki search for the win.
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kisik21
I wish I had a big pile of money
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kisik21
then I'd donate to micro.blog so the barrier for indieweb entry would be lower
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kisik21
so they could run free blogs
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kisik21
I feel like there's a problem about indieweb that it requires (relatively small though, if you look at US) money to run
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kisik21
I pay around $1 per month for a domain, and while that is really cheap, I feel some people are stuck with silos because they don't have even this kind of money and knowledge where to spend it
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[jgmac1106]
@kisik21 hitting on important point.. Manual until it hurts will never work for someone who does manual labor even though it hurts
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kisik21
I think I need to get back to work on my site because I need to write a post about that...
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kisik21
the only motivation for working on my site
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[jgmac1106]
I am trying to encourage Mozilla to do a fundraiser where you sponsor domains and storage for people
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[jgmac1106]
Donate $20 to Mozilla and buy someone a website for a year...
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[jgmac1106]
Also putting in a ton of grants and have a 'eeting today with a Kenyan Government official trying to increase digital literacy
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[jgmac1106]
Glad though micro.blog didn't choose freemiun models. Not sustainable... Too much time dedicated to non revenue generating customers
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bradenslen
[jgmac1106] and Zegnat Thanks. I added it to the recommendation engine page.
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[jgmac1106]
@kisik21 @Glitch is doing a cool promo... If you help two people they give you a custom domain. I don't know node.js (and a bazillion other things) but want to get lightweight blogging platform up on there
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[jgmac1106]
[grantcodes] [kevinmarks] and a few others going to help
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aaronpk
swentel: I made my WebMention intro post primarily about Microformats because that's how you get webmentions to look good, otherwise they aren't terribly interesting. I say stick with that. Helps focus on the user benefit.
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[Rose]
[aaronpk] I opened another issue on ownyourgram this morning about Instagram alt text, I hope to get time next week onwards to look into if I can do it myself though.
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aaronpk
Thanks [Rose]!
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[manton]
[eddie] [chrisaldrich] Catching up on the conversation about "listen posts"... One comment I have: I don't think feeds for these posts should include the audio tag or RSS attachment. It makes it seem like you created the recording instead of just linking to it. (It's kind of like if when you link to someone's web page, you include the entire text of their web page in your post too.)
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[manton]
I mention this because I know [chrisaldrich] currently does this and it confuses Micro.blog's podcast discovery section. 🙂
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[eddie]
So I think there are two approaches. The first I think is good, the second might be a little "sketchy", [chrisaldrich] does the second one. 🙂
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[eddie]
And right as I was about to type a bunch of protocol jargon I caught myself. I'll post a proper reply in #dev
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[chrisaldrich]
I think that as long as it's specifically marked as a listen post (and not a podcast post) it's marked as something I didn't produce. Thus including the enclosure, which points to the original and let's the owner count downloads can only help others in discovery of the thing.
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Loqi
[chrisaldrich]: bradenslen left you a message 2 hours, 50 minutes ago: re: discovery engine. You might explore https://yacy.net/en/index.html if you can put an instance up on your own server it might help
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Loqi
[chrisaldrich]: bradenslen left you a message 2 hours, 48 minutes ago: correction that should be re. recommendation engine
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[chrisaldrich]
If it's properly marked as a listen, I would submit that it's far less sketchy than a standard repost which copies copywritten text/photos which I didn't create and which doesn't provide as much benefit to the creator who misses out on the click or download altogether.
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[eddie]
That is true, listen post is better than repost
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[chrisaldrich]
I wouldnt consider doing it if I was hosting the audio myself.
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[chrisaldrich]
It's also less sketchy than what Apple could be doing as a podcast aggregator, but in my case I'm not doubt it at scale and my recommendation is actually more valuable as I'm not just saying a podcast simply exists, but I've actually put skin in the game and listened to it and posted about it.
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[chrisaldrich]
S/doubt/doing
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[eddie]
I think the biggest hangup is that manton has just been seeing it in the Micro.blog discover section, which I think he would prefer to be original content. The good news is you ARE marking it up with h-cite in your feeds, so it is detectable
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[eddie]
The rest is about principles, which everyone has different principles for their websites 🙂
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[manton]
Yeah, I'm going to think more about how best to handle these. My gut feeling was that by including an audio tag, you're kind of implying that it's your content, because 99% of the time that is how audio tags are used, I think. Not totally sure because listen posts are kind of a new thing, to me.
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[eddie]
They are a new thing everywhere 😄
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[manton]
As I said in #dev, when you link to someone's photo, you almost never include an img tag of their photo. But when you link to a video, maybe you do embed it (because YouTube).
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[eddie]
But I think one goal a lot of us have is to have UI that is as close to social media as possible because that is the most approachable
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[eddie]
so contextual embeds are a thing I think we want to encourage in general
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[eddie]
within reason (such as linking to the audio file on their website rather than rehosting it yourself)
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[chrisaldrich]
[manton] perhaps the difference on micro.blogs discovery section is in presentation? Is it listens you're presenting or podcast feeds by creators? This might be better delineated by using 🎙vs 🎧 and explicitly separating those?
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[manton]
[chrisaldrich] Yeah, the goal on Micro.blog is surfacing podcast feeds by creators. I have a mechanism for excluding listen posts if they don't really fit there, but I do it manually right now.
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[manton]
I can definitely work around this on Micro.blog so I don't want to get hung up too much on how it works. I'm bringing it up as a larger discussion of how this stuff should work.
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[chrisaldrich]
All mine include a listen-of which should make them roughly filterable.
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[manton]
Yep, that's good.
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[eddie]
My usual direction is to include as much contextual info including images, avatars, audio and video files as possible
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[eddie]
because that’s what people are used to on social media. You don’t want to have to click through a link to decide if you want to look at an image or listen to an audio
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[eddie]
you just want to click and preview the audio probably
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[eddie]
That said, I do think it’s important to link those against the originals so that if they take the content down, it is no longer displayed on yours
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[eddie]
But interested in hearing other opinions 🙂
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[manton]
Agreed, especially with audio, copying the audio to your own server would hurt a podcast with ads.
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[chrisaldrich]
Though it would be nice if mb also had a listen discovery section to advertise what people are listening to in the podcast arena. No social platforms really do that now and actual listens are FAR more valuable than just recommendations of "this is great" which spread too far based on social pressures.
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[manton]
I'm still convinced including an audio tag is the right thing to do, though. Again, just like you wouldn't include an img tag of someone else's photo. In the case of a social network, usually it's the reader app / Twitter client that handles those previews.
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[manton]
[chrisaldrich] Yeah, that would be cool!
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[manton]
Er... Still _not_ convinced, I meant.
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[chrisaldrich]
Downloading and self hosting someone's podcast isnt easy (or cheap). Pointing to it is much simpler.
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[eddie]
Obviously Listen posts aren’t the that big yet, but I especially think an aggregation of listen posts could be pretty awesome. X people that you follow listened to this podcast.
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[manton]
Yep, to be clear I'm not saying listen posts are bad. My question is just whether listen posts should include HTML audio tags.
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[eddie]
Aaron does include photos on his site
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[eddie]
haha sorry aaronpk for throwing you under the bus 😄
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[manton]
Haha. Uh oh. 🙂 That's interesting, I don't think I had noticed how Aaron does reposts.
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[chrisaldrich]
I call them faux-casts on purpose. But if you have someone you trust, it's easy to subscribe to their feed and get the enclosures which still come from the pucks who gets download credit and their ads.
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[eddie]
My goal has been to do the same thing but just haven’t gotten around to fetching the content correctly in my system
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[Vincent]
UK Parliament has just released a lot of the six4three files they seized the other week: https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Note-by-Chair-and-selected-documents-ordered-from-Six4Three.pdf
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[chrisaldrich]
Apple is doing roughly the same thing, but there's a reason they don't host the content.
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[Vincent]
The files are pretty damming
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[chrisaldrich]
Post kinds parses pages and uses original photos (but doesn't use them yet) for things like reposts but I think this isn't much different than Twitter OGP data except your server doesn't get pinged for traffic since Twitter caches it.
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[chrisaldrich]
The publisher misses the traffic, which can be beneficial, but also misses out on the potential numbers on the spread of the post or img.
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chrisaldrich
I wrote about some blue sky for podcast apps and IndieWeb a while back, perhaps I'll spend some time today to sketch out my thinking on listen posts since it's an area that's not well represented in the current social space, but which I think should be.
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[jgmac1106]
[manton] I meant more in my social reader..if the reader saw an audio tag one of my post I could publish with the micropub client would be a listen post. That button would not be there if no <audio> tag present
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[jgmac1106]
my WYSWIG strips out the p-category data value but Known converts hashtags into p-category with a rel=tag
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[jgmac1106]
[manton] I did wonder being such an emoji place if the correct html could be rendered that way
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[jgmac1106]
[chrisaldrich] someday connecting it all to voice commands on my phone is the dream....or somebody building micropub client directly into podcast player so the listen-of post publishes upon completion
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[jgmac1106]
why aren't there good, past, present, future emoji...finish I could do with checkered flag, but don't know what want-to and listening would be
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[jgmac1106]
ohh reminds me [aaronpk] we need to propose the not it emoji...I have heard three people pretend to use it in the last two days
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[chrisaldrich]
[jgmac1106] for want to listen to (typically only on my backend as drafts or private posts) I use 🔖 🎧
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[jgmac1106]
yeah just had this idea about microblog since it is so emoji driven...could post types be driven by emojis?
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[chrisaldrich]
there's a pretty good 1-1 mapping of them here: https://indieweb.org/posts#Types_of_Posts
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[chrisaldrich]
I actually use huffduffer's RSS in conjunction with IFTTT to add (private) want to listen posts on my site. The huffduffer bookmarklet then becomes my "poor man's micropub client".
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[kevinmarks]
BBC summary of some key points
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Zegnat
“somebody building micropub client directly into podcast player” - I’d be happy if they add scrobbling, or even better gpodder compatibility. I see little reason to try and reinvent that wheel.
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Loqi
anomalily has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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@anomalily
If you are person over 30 who cares about the social internet professionally, you really should be following the melt down on tumblr. Not like, on twitter. Get you an account on the hellsite, follow some youths as it all burns down. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtqKEPYU4AAGQ0m.jpg
(twtr.io/1mCQR5rkzAw)
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jacky
wait I'm under 30 and I care! lol
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[kevinmarks]
I have a tumblr, I just don't use it
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[kevinmarks]
mastodon is seeing a tumblr influx; there's some effort to get people to fan out to different instances
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Loqi
[Yulegen 🎄] I have updated joinmastodon.org to exclude mastodon.social from the picker, because other servers need some new user love too!
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@cher
Facebook Gave Some Companies Special Access to Users’ Data, Documents Show via @NYTimes How Long Are We going to Let Zuckerberg Get away With This... “Aw Shucks,Im Just a Kid” 🐂💩⁉️ https://nyti.ms/2E3wHbm?smid=nytcore-ios-share
(twtr.io/1mCt7K1CBE8)
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[tantek]
wow so much scrollback and so much of it is dev talk 😭 [jgmac1106] swentel [manton] [aaronpk] e.g. all mentions of webmentions, microformats, RSS, enclosures, audio element
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[tantek]
going to respond like a nonsequitor in dev channel
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[tantek]
aside, that one post from Mastodon re: paying for owning your stuff vs free-ish spaces like libraries is a great empathetic stream of consciousness expression and I definitely think that are aspects we should document
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[tantek]
It's also too easy to criticize cost in the abstract. e.g. a domain name + hosting costs 1/10th the amount as a smartphone subsription
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[tantek]
I get it for folks who don't have smartphones, yes we need free-ish indieweb solutions. However if you're paying for a smartphone, you're already making a discretionary decision far beyond what you "need", so it is reasonable to say hey, consider using a fraction of that cost to instead own your data on your own site. (nevermind setup/maintenance cost/complexity as we're making that easier / less costly every year)
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aaronpk
interesting point about smartphones. it's also an interesting comparison since i know a lot of people who are on smartphone family plans to save money, even into their 20s. i wonder if there is some analogous thing for domain names/hosting there.