#indieweb 2019-01-29
2019-01-29 UTC
# 
rubenverborgh So that tells a more nuanced story than one tweet taken out of context
# rubenverborgh might be useful to also post the text there for completeness
# rubenverborgh Myes, but I have the feeling that https://indieweb.org/Inrupt is a page to highlight specific aspects of Inrupt.
# rubenverborgh Which I am fine with, it doesn't have to bring multiple perspectives necessarily.
# rubenverborgh I can just try to add facts to one perspective.
# rubenverborgh Okay. I want to help, I will post suggestions here, but do with them as you please.
# rubenverborgh "has faced criticism for its winner take all narrative"
# rubenverborgh => has a double problem I think
# rubenverborgh I don't know of courses for such criticism (they might exist)
# rubenverborgh but the "winner take(s) all narrative" is the opposite of what I always present
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# rubenverborgh There are many talks (possibly recordings, unsure) where I say that "if Inrupt is the only Solid player, we lose", and I mean that because Solid only makes sense with competition (on two markets, as explained)
# rubenverborgh "non-diverse hiring" I always found interesting, as one of the people on the initial homepage was in fact not a white male, but the colorized photos kind of obscured that fact :-)
# rubenverborgh but yes, too many white males there, and I'm one of them
# rubenverborgh even though I'm not a hire
# rubenverborgh "while asking for unpaid diverse contributors" => that is wrong because a) I am not employed by Inrupt so cannot and do not speak on their behalf and b) I never said that in the first place
# rubenverborgh "exclusively have male employees" is not correct given current team composition (but say "almost" and you're still good)
# rubenverborgh and the rest seems factually accurate
# rubenverborgh happy to help if you have any questions in the future
# rubenverborgh and as I said above, hope to meet some of you at FOSDEM
# rubenverborgh hi!
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# rubenverborgh I would love to, but the combination of day job and evening volunteering (plus kids) severly limit my time
# rubenverborgh also, FOSDEM prep 🙂
# rubenverborgh not sure where they put me, but yes, probably 🙂
# rubenverborgh @jgmac1106 thanks again for considering these suggestions, some more things above if you find the time. Hope these facts help improving your wiki and informed criticism against Solid and Inrupt.
# rubenverborgh Keep it coming, and when in doubt, please reach out to me 🙂 Always safer to not assume.
# rubenverborgh Yeah, that's fair I think.
# rubenverborgh You cannot imagine the amount of online and offline harassment I have gotten for daring to ask for diversity.
# rubenverborgh Yeah I was very naive.
# rubenverborgh I have learned to ask for help when I get stuck.
# rubenverborgh But this is not what you're supposed to do when it comes to diversity, so I learned.
# rubenverborgh It's a very difficult situation. On the one hand, people rightly comment on the lack of diversity. Then the argument "we welcome people based on enthusiasm and skill" doesn't count.
# rubenverborgh But when you encourage people from diverse backgrounds to apply, you suddenly make it about their diversity and not their skill.
# 
jgmac1106 and we made fundemental mistakes not designing web for diversity and inclusion....For many Inrupt seemed to be following the Utopian Libertarian BroGrammer Crush Capitalism playbook to the tee….it is this worldview…not the profile page people were upset about…the profile page was the symptom not the disease
# rubenverborgh Oh definitely.
# rubenverborgh But unfortunately, pointing out problems gains more retweets than helping to point to solutions.
# rubenverborgh And that was new to me.
# rubenverborgh ^ agree
# rubenverborgh never claimed the opposite
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# rubenverborgh yeah and that's still a tricky part for me
# rubenverborgh (hi eddie)
# rubenverborgh yes, we have a problem: the pond we're fishing in (people with JavaScript + RDF experience) is already very white/male
# rubenverborgh and the most succesful non-white males in that community have their own company or a good stable position already
# rubenverborgh so I mean it, bottom of my heart, advice on how to find diverse developers with JavaScript + RDF knowledge is very welcome
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# rubenverborgh I think we're all people here; skill is not determined by gender, culture, ethnicity
# jgmac1106 meant picking RDF and Linked Data…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvzarD06Gdo
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# rubenverborgh no, true
# rubenverborgh I meant talent and potential
# rubenverborgh as personal characteristics
# rubenverborgh true
# rubenverborgh but how… still listening for advice there
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# rubenverborgh because I fully agree I should've listened instead of talked back then, and definitely not asked for help
# rubenverborgh but few voices were giving constructive advice
# rubenverborgh and those who have, did so privately (and I'm very thankful for what I received)
# rubenverborgh anyways this intro got way too long
# rubenverborgh all I wanted to say was, don't assume, talk to me/us 🙂 we're normal people just like all of you
# rubenverborgh thanks for the chats, hoping to meet some of you soon
# rubenverborgh @dustyweb: The irony of the decentralized community: we might not succeed because of being so decentralized and all doing our own thing 🙂
# 
KartikPrabhu also it is a wiki, anyone is free to edit a remove "shit-talk" if they know more about the said project
# KartikPrabhu "best way to fix the world is to fix oneself" sounds like "scratch your own itch"
# jgmac1106 rubenverborgh: we left IndieWeb Summit Organizers meeting witgh a focus on ensuring that 2019 IndieWeb Summit Organizers was not all white and male again… Hopefully we make it…but it.will be reflecting on the scaffolds we provide for onboarding that will matter more than any new faces in the pictures. Best of luck with D&I efforts with Solid?Inrupt
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# rubenverborgh Yeah just one thing really: Inrupt never asked for labor, paid or unpaid
# rubenverborgh I asked for people
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# rubenverborgh I am not Inrupt nor an employee
# rubenverborgh Don’t confuse my clumsiness with a company’s actions 🙂
# rubenverborgh and thanks again, keep in touch
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# 
[tantek] rubenverborgh regarding being labeled as an employeed, that's what the https://inrupt.com/meet-the-inrupters made it look like, being listed right under the CEO and COO, literally in midst of other paid employees. It is not an unreasonable conclusion, in fact I'd argue it's strongly implied, being as "inrupter" sounds like someone who works for Inrupt. Just as "Googler" is someone who works for (is paid by) Google.
# [tantek] If you say you are "not Inrupt nor an employee", then why are you listed on a page literally titled "Inrupters"? Inrupt.com seems to portray you as "Inrupt", and that seems like a reasonable citation to back that claim. I see that at least they've added a different affiliation for you "at Ghent University", yet when the claim of employment and criticism was made, the page just made it look like you were one of the employees listed there:
# [tantek] dustyweb, regarding any "shit-talks" on the IndieWeb wiki, if anyone of it is inaccurate, it should be corrected or removed. Definitely feel free to point out whenever you see that. That being said, the space of decentralized / distributed / federated web is littered with overhyped vapor for a decade or more, and being honest about that is helpful especially for newcomers who don't know how to evaluate any particular project they may have seen a ra
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# [jgmac1106] and you bring mad skills with: view-source:https://danielmoch.com/
# [jgmac1106] have you looked at webmentions.io?
# [jgmac1106] python libraries there
# [jgmac1106] no prob, if you have questions just take them to the /dev channel....if this is what you do in three days, can't wait to see what you build in three months.
# KartikPrabhu what is dev
# 
Loqi local development is (or local dev, local dev setup) the practice of having a version of your site on your local machine like a laptop that you can use for development purposes, even when offline https://indieweb.org/%22.dev%22
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# KartikPrabhu [jgmac1106]: you have been linking to the wrong wiki page ^
# KartikPrabhu or even https://indieweb.org/dev
# KartikPrabhu yes
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# [jgmac1106] good morning
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# rubenverborgh @tantek Nice to hear from you. Was definitely not a far-fetched conclusion by itself, but there were a lot of such "small jumps to conclusions" that together might become a big jump 🙂
# rubenverborgh Totally fine of course to dislike Inrupt or Solid for any reason, not in the least for our use of RDF
# rubenverborgh But a little fact-checking with easily findable information benefits all. It does appear that the wiki prefers very specific sources, which is absolutely your right.
# jgmac1106 “prefers very specific sources”, which is absolutely your right. not specific will take any….there will plenty you folks got coverage on every single outlet….when Vanity Fair is covering start ups…its like a jump the shark moment (American TV expression for when a show goes too far) before you exist
# rubenverborgh @jgmac1106 I do. Only factual inaccuraccy is "Inrupt…asking for unpaid diverse contributors". They never have and never will.
# rubenverborgh I asked for diverse contributors to the Solid project, but I am an independent academic.
# rubenverborgh Sure, but my tweet is me, not Inrupt, not Ghent University, not imec. I only speak for myself.
# rubenverborgh Here's a tutorial I volunteered a while ago: https://solid.inrupt.com/docs/app-on-your-lunch-break
# rubenverborgh Hey I would love to meet some indiewebbers soon. We (as in "Solid project") really have the same goals, just different tech stacks.
# rubenverborgh @swentel Hi!!
# rubenverborgh Perfect
# rubenverborgh and also seeing @sl007 at FOSDEM
# rubenverborgh and @dustyweb as well
# rubenverborgh absolutely
# rubenverborgh @swentel feel free to shoot me an email
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# rubenverborgh Haha 😂
# rubenverborgh yep
# rubenverborgh happy to see that we have a lot in common
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# jgmac1106 https://janespod.solid/profile/card#me http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name "Jane Doe"@en or <a class=“h-card” href=“janespod.solid/profile/“>Jane Doe</a>…same thing….one just puts a primacy on being human readable first and the other more machine readable first …I put inthe wrong channel
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# 
[kevinmarks] Soltani says. "I think Black Mirror has done more to inform people on the potential pitfalls of AI than any White House policy paper."
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# 
jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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# jgmac1106 join /knownchat
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# cjwillcock what is solid
# Loqi Solid is a decentralized file system and protocol designed to power decentralized social applications and linked data https://indieweb.org/Solid
# cjwillcock what is linked data
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "linked data" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "linked data is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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# cjwillcock linked data is Linked Data Notifications
# cjwillcock hmm - I think that didn't work like I expected - wanted to make a redirect
# cjwillcock what is linked data
# Loqi Linked Data Notifications is a protocol to send RDF-based messages between clients and servers or between two servers, as well as how clients can retrieve these messages for reuse https://indieweb.org/linked_data
# [kevinmarks] that's a bad redirect
# cjwillcock please fix it - I would like to know what it means
# [kevinmarks] linked data is a lot more than that
# [kevinmarks] what is RDF?
# Loqi RDF is an abbreviation for Resource Description Format, an early-ish part of XML-related technology, that was pitched as the Semantic Web, used in Trackback and RSS 1.0 (but dropped by Pingback and RSS 2.0 respectively), later rebranded as Linked Data, experimentally published in the past, but not used by any indieweb use-cases in practice https://indieweb.org/RDF
# [kevinmarks] maybe worth a separate page as the RDF one is mostly criticisms, but Linked Data notifications are a small part of the edifice
# cjwillcock ah, I see, for now I'll change the redirect to RDF
# cjwillcock what is linked data
# Loqi RDF is an abbreviation for Resource Description Format, an early-ish part of XML-related technology, that was pitched as the Semantic Web, used in Trackback and RSS 1.0 (but dropped by Pingback and RSS 2.0 respectively), later rebranded as Linked Data, experimentally published in the past, but not used by any indieweb use-cases in practice https://indieweb.org/linked_data
# [kevinmarks] you can also use webmentions between Linked Data resources if you like: http://lombardpress.org/2016/04/16/iiif-webmentions/
# [jgmac1106] @dustyweb will check the ActivityPub page and make sure it is mentioned
# [jgmac1106] What is that activity pub blogging platform?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "that activity pub blogging platform" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "that activity pub blogging platform is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [jgmac1106] No different one. Has webmentions but they probably work on the mf2 and not linked data
# [jgmac1106] Just trying to think if we can find an RDF webmention example to add to the page
# [jgmac1106] Ohh all my sites part of Fediverse... Such a mess... I have way too many accounts now
# [jgmac1106] Wordpress, Micro.blog, and Known, plus Bridgy Fed...ton of folks you can follow their site in different clients
# [jgmac1106] Makes sense, though I am no developer so my knowledge limited, but iff you wanted to add webmentions and you had both mf2 and JSON-LD, you would pick easier route.
# [jgmac1106] In fact I didn't even realize I built an accidental blog simply by adding mf2... Thought I was making static pages... But then people started following me.. It was cool
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# [jgmac1106] Will keep eyes out for RDF only webmention implementations
# [kevinmarks] the one I linked is the one we know about
# [jgmac1106] Ohh that said demo... I was looking for in the wild use cases... Didn't read article past that... Will look deeper
# Loqi Plume is an open source blogging tool that has some microformats2 support and is based on ActivityPub https://indieweb.org/Plume
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# jgmac1106 If anything remote happens today at https://indieweb.org/2019/Vlissingen please ping the chat as folks maybe around
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# 
bradenslen Good Morning Indieweb
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# 
[schmarty] 👋
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# [tantek] however, I have to dispute "same goals, just different tech stacks" as that neglects the barriers that "different tech stacks" can raise to achieving said "same goals". You yourself have pointed out how few JS+RDF folks you have found - usually that's a strong indicator that the barriers for that are higher (than other "tech stacks"), and such barriers directly go against many of those "same goals".
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# snarfed jgmac1106++ for contributing to bridgy, based on real user research! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/pull/861
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# snarfed starts removing google+ from https://granary.io/ , https://plusstreamfeed.appspot.com/ , etc
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "LockerProject" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "LockerProject is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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# snarfed it's not that day quite yet, but they are starting to brownout API calls. https://developers.google.com/+/api-shutdown
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# [schmarty] been playing around with what i can get hugo to render and added a photos view to my site: https://martymcgui.re/photos/
# [schmarty] not sure where to add it to the wiki!
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# Loqi A gallery is a deliberately curated set of photos, that may itself be a post, or an archive view, or potentially dynamically created via tags https://indieweb.org/gallery
# [schmarty] eddie: i don't think gallery fits, as it's not curated.
# [schmarty] the closest in my opinion is /archive
# Loqi [Rose]: jgmac1106 left you a message 5 days, 2 hours ago: I keep https://knowndemo.jgregorymcverry.com up as a site where I let people join and test, but no shared hosting,
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# [tantek] !tell dustyweb here is a recent example I created for historical purposes: https://indieweb.org/The_Locker_Project - e.g. that's an attempt to provide historically accurate documentation of something that failed, to hopefully help inform/warn any newcomer that shows up and may have heard about it. Would be interested in your opinion in how (else / better) to document history in this space in a way that is helpful/productive for folks actively worki
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# rubenverborgh @tantek Solid indeed has some goals that go beyond Indieweb’s, suc
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# rubenverborgh such as with regard to interoperability etc.
# rubenverborgh But from an outsider’s perspective, we’re doing the same thing
# rubenverborgh Regarding “enabling people”, check my blog post detailing my work of the past months
# rubenverborgh We don’t have a more comolex stack to annoy people
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# rubenverborgh But rather to make more complex things possible
# rubenverborgh So our job (mine actually) is to simplify
# rubenverborgh (Wrong link above, should be https://ruben.verborgh.org/blog/2018/12/28/designing-a-linked-data-developer-experience/)
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# rubenverborgh Regarding includion and diversion, let’s not be hypocrites 🙂
# rubenverborgh Last IndieWeb meetup was whiter than Inrupt 😉
# rubenverborgh This entire sector has a serious problem
# rubenverborgh the difference being that I’m gullible enough to ask for help/advice on Twitter; lesson learned
# rubenverborgh I think we can learn a lot from each other
# rubenverborgh A great step would be a wiki that also _tries_ to find good points in other tech and common ground
# rubenverborgh Instead of attack and popcorn by default
# rubenverborgh And great progress was made on that one article yesterday thanks to the great people here
# rubenverborgh So thanks again guys
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# rubenverborgh Unfortunately, @tantek, you insist on including a falsehood that @jgmac1106 had corrected
# rubenverborgh Please don’t let the truth hinder your mission 😉
# rubenverborgh For the record: _I_ tweeted, never mentioned unpaid, and I was the one criticized
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# rubenverborgh Disagree with Inrupt all you wish, I mean it, but having to resort to falsehoods as arguments doesn’t build a strong case
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# [jgmac1106] I need a new chat platform for tge family. We used Google Hangouts. My kids are there and they do not have cell phone numbers what should I use?
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# [tantek] rubenverborgh, it's pretty presumptuous of you to assume/claim that Solid "has some goals that go beyond Indieweb … such as with regard to interoperability" without anything to demonstrate that. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the opposite is true, that IndieWeb in principle and a community is actually pursuing *more* diverse and inclusive interoperability than Solid. See https://indieweb.org/plurality for more
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# [tantek] rubenverborgh, I read your post https://ruben.verborgh.org/articles/redecentralizing-the-web/ and it reeks of the arrogance that folks have complained about - a brief example - your "A short history of (de-)centralization and the Web" completely ignores and neglects the entirety of web decentralization efforts (IndieWeb and dozens of others), which is either willful negligence, or ignorance of convenience. Even the incomplete stubs of https://indie
# [tantek] https://indieweb.org/timeline describe much more. Thus when you say "This entire sector has a serious problem" I have a hard time believing what you mean by "entire sector" when there is such ignoring of most of the sector. This is one of the reasons you are seeing such harsh pushback. Blog posts claiming to present an overall narrative that ignore 99% of the work in the sector.
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# [schmarty] woo, i finally have listen posts thanks to parsing the overcast.opml export. some examples: https://martymcgui.re/2019/01/#2019-01-28
# [schmarty] thanks cleverdevil for the encouragement
# [schmarty] (or perhaps inspiration, since you didn't address me about it directly, haha)
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# [jgmac1106] Snarfed... Yeah been thinking Telegram... All they want to do is send stickers back and forth. I may just encourage webmentions... But it's how we chat on the road.
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