#indieweb 2019-06-14

2019-06-14 UTC
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jgmac1106 though really the conference is run by a vendor…so there is that missed fact
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jgmac1106 but kind I don’t mind, and actually do, give money towards…but not conferences I think…if a conference makes money may have to make policy I go only if I get paid as well
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jgmac1106 not sure what the biz arrangmenets are so I shouldn’t speak out of hand
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chrisaldrich I think that because Reclaim Hosting comes out of Domains and is done more ethically than most vendor/conference relationships it's not as bad/toxic....
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chrisaldrich I'm happy to help support them and keep their lights on... success for Domains means success for them and vice versa, but at the same time their community is driving most of the ideas/direction...
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chrisaldrich A lot of it also has to do with Jim and Tim's background and ethos. They're originally of the web, so they don't have the same desires as some of the toxic edtech vendors out there.
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chrisaldrich I see a similar alignment with Manton and micro.blog...
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chrisaldrich Though it's still a good idea to keep a close eye on what they're doing and noting when behaviors and norms change as the precursor of what could happen later.
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[jgmac1106] I meant me personally really. If you making cash (or attempting) and you want me showing up providing content, pay me.
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[jgmac1106] but agree on both. good companies with good principles is how I vote with my dollars
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[tantek] dm would be a nice feature to have on a personal site, e.g. dm *from your site*, instead of having to use a silo UI
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aaronpk sounds like a contact form
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[tantek] e.g. so I could literally write a private post with to: of one, and if that to: was a twitter profile, my site would know to post a DM via the Twitter API
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[tantek] no not to dm you
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[tantek] for you to dm others
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aaronpk ohh
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[tantek] of course just sending is minimum viable dming
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[tantek] and you'd quickly want to be able to see replies, the whole previous conversation etc., which I think is still possible
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mblaney yay another feed list: https://unicyclic.com/indieweb/2019-summit :-)
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aaronpk ooh yay
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mblaney the idea worked, subscribed to https://2019.indieweb.org/summit and my reader did all the feed discovery work. should keep up to date if new people register too.
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Loqi IndieWeb Summit
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mblaney flipping the registrations was a good idea too, aaronpk
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chrisaldrich wonders how AirDrop could be done in an IndieWeb fashion? https://www.npr.org/2019/06/08/730898415/understanding-airdrop-crossfire Certainly an interesting method of geofencing or limiting audience.
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Ruxton chrisaldrich: micropub without auth (airdrop completely), micropub authed from white-listed remote source (airdrop contacts only)?
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[tantek] what is airdrop
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Loqi AirDrop is a UX on Apple modern iOS and MacOS devices that allows users to share pictures, notes, contacts, and link directly with each other in-room, independent of any centralized service or silo, an example of a distributed ideal https://indieweb.org/AirDrop
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cweiske so you want to "replace" a decentral offline tech with something that requires internet?
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[tantek] cweiske++
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Loqi cweiske has 7 karma in this channel over the last year (15 in all channels)
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[tantek] AirDrop << 2019-06-08 NPR Podcast: [https://www.npr.org/2019/06/08/730898415/understanding-airdrop-crossfire Understanding AirDrop 'Crossfire'] <blockquote>the fun is doing it with people you don't know. So if you're, you know, in a crowded subway, waiting for a concert to begin, at a school assembly</blockquote>
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Loqi ok, I added "2019-06-08 NPR Podcast: [https://www.npr.org/2019/06/08/730898415/understanding-airdrop-crossfire Understanding AirDrop 'Crossfire'] <blockquote>the fun is doing it with people you don't know. So if you're, you know, in a crowded subway, waiting for a concert to begin, at a school assembly</blockquote>" to the "See Also" section of /AirDrop https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=62410&oldid=62173
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Ruxton I used to do that with bluetooth contact bombs.. grab all the devices in range, send them a contact with an attached image+text :P
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[tantek] Ruxton, more like webmention over bluetooth - not only no auth needed, no need to say "without auth" (since webmention has none to begin with)
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Ruxton [tantek]: ahh yes, but then how can i be 100% sure that when I have contacts only, it isn't spoofed from somewhere else?
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Ruxton oh..derp.
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Ruxton nevermind :)
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[frank] Goodmorning Indieweb
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chrisaldrich AirDrop requires bits moving through a channel, whether that's via Apple/telephone, bluetooth, or internet shouldn't matter.
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chrisaldrich And it's centralized through Apple... why should they have the monopoly? ;)
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cweiske don't know if you're trying to troll us
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[tantek] no, it doesn't go through any Apple servers.
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich] it's a pretty big deal to be able to share directly device to device without any intermediaries
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chrisaldrich I'm presuming it's all local com links and not through apple...
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[tantek] I think you need to try it out to get it
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chrisaldrich I like the idea of the model, so I'm wondering how we might capture that for ourselves.
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chrisaldrich I'm on Android and not iOS, so another reason to want to be able to untether the Apple portion.
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cweiske so you want a protocol spec
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[tantek] well, you'd need an open standards version of AirDrop, something I brought up at the 2018 Decentralized Web Summit session on decentralizing browsers
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chrisaldrich I just ran across it after having heard about it several times tangentially. I'll ahve to dig into their methods, but the information theorist in me is intrigued.
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cweiske https://github.com/seemoo-lab/opendrop
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Loqi [seemoo-lab] opendrop: An open Apple AirDrop implementation written in Python
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chrisaldrich Be careful tantek, you'll have aaronpk working on a new microbrowser spec that splits browsers into pieces to make it easier for people to own their own browser. ;)
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chrisaldrich thanks cweiske!
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chrisaldrich I can imagine that it would be interesting as a stranger at an IndieWebCamp if I could open up something like AirDrop and poll the room for people who had openly available h-cards I could peruse...
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich] add that to /AirDrop#Brainstorming!
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cweiske airdrop is push, not pull
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[tantek] AirDrop << open proof of concept: https://github.com/seemoo-lab/opendrop
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Loqi [seemoo-lab] opendrop: An open Apple AirDrop implementation written in Python
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Loqi ok, I added "open proof of concept: https://github.com/seemoo-lab/opendrop" to the "See Also" section of /AirDrop https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=62411&oldid=62410
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[xavierroy] seems to work similar to the ShareIt app on android
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cweiske bluetooth beacons push data without being asked
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cweiske with airdrop, you can't simply pull data from people. they have to actively push files out
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chrisaldrich Or in the case of Google Glasses which promised the ability to do facial recognition/AI to identify people and provide their contact information, personal details, etc. Something like this could be done in more permissive and ethical manner.
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chrisaldrich But if I were at a conference and actively pushing out my h-card for others to see? Gives me control as the ability to broadcast depending on the situation.
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Ruxton very different use cases
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chrisaldrich something to dream about as I go to sleep... good night all!
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jacky ahh I wanted to sleep
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jacky but airdrop without apple is bonjour
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cweiske no, bonjour is mdns
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jacky right and from there you can poke at inferred services (if there's a 'common' mdns endpoint for a micropub client or what one's h-card could be)
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mblaney I worked on a project a few years ago that stored ip addresses on the same wifi to a server, then shared those ip addresses back to the browser so they could communicate via CORS.... so your airdrop idea is totally possible!
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jacky bonjour/avahi is _super_ low level for this
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jacky but it could def be the basis of it
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jacky and a lot of computers (Linux/macOS) already support it
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jacky not sure about Windows
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cweiske avahi needs IP
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jacky like a non-local network? I don't know about that (re: internals) tbh
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sknebel The Bluetooth beacon stuff seems the closest, although I think it actually has gotten removed from some software again
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sknebel Avahi needs a network where devices can talk to each other - airdrop doesn't
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jacky hmm
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ferz Hi
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ferz I would like to translate some pages of Indieweb in italian about webmentions.
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ferz I don't understand how to log in to do this job.
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ferz I've a github account and a twitter account too.
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cweiske you need a homepage that links to your github or twitter account
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[kevinmarks786] Bonjour is zeroconf - it's more than just mdns, it's dns-sd too
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[kevinmarks786] http://zeroconf.org/
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[kevinmarks786] Dns-sd is agnostic between local and Internet wide. Mdns is a local dns cache. Probably this should be in dev, but that layer is all open protocols.
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[jgmac1106] this first video shows you how to log into the wiki ferz: https://jgregorymcverry.com/hwcpagetutorial.html but cweiske is right on your blog or website put a link to your GitHub account with rel="me" in the link, then go to GitHub, edit your profile and set your url to the website where you added the rel=me
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sebsel Good morning!
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sknebel morning sebsel!
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ferz Hi
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ferz How can I log in into indieweb.org using my github account?
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[tantek] hi ferz! setup your personal site to rel=me link to your github profile, and put your personal site URL in your github profile - see https://indieweb.org/How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain for step by step instructions
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ferz wget -O - http://www.nonsolosoft.com/ | grep rel=\"me\"
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ferz it finds link
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ferz but indieweb.org doesn't
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[tantek] looks like it redirects
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[tantek] you have to use the actual URL
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ferz ah, ok
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ferz thank you [tantek]
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aaronpk it looks like there are two redirects, you might want to fix that too
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aaronpk but it looks like you can type your plain domain into the wiki sign-in and it should follow the redirects
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aaronpk tho also your site is served from both www and no-www which will cause other problems
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[tantek] these sound like good tests to add to IndieWebify.me's identity validator
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aaronpk 👍
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jackjamieson Does anyone have a workflow suggestion for syndicating bookmarks from a WordPress site to Pocket?
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jackjamieson I was thinking RSS -> IFTTT -> Pocket, but this sends the URL of my bookmark post instead of the URL for the page I bookmarked
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jackjamieson e.g. https://jackjamieson.net/backfeed-without-code/ instead of https://snarfed.org/backfeed-without-code
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Loqi [Jack Jamieson] Backfeed without code by Ryan Barrett https://snarfed.org/copier_paper_airplane.jpg https://snarfed.org/copier_paper_airplane.jpg Drew Dernavich, The New Yorker I’ve spent most of my time in the IndieWeb on backfeed: sending interactions from soci...
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jackjamieson (Using the feed created by IndieWeb Post Kinds, which is at https://jackjamieson.net/kind/bookmark/feed/)
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sknebel jackjamieson: hm, Zapier might have more tools to get the link out of the post? but I think they quickly required a paid plan
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GWG jackjamieson, does pocket have an API?
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GWG If so, open a suggestion on Syndication Links for a POSSE option
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GWG I should do Pinboard also
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Loqi agreed.
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jackjamieson sknebel, Thanks, I'll check out Zapier
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jackjamieson GWG, Pocket does have an API, I just took a quick look now. Didn't think of building it into syndication links but that makes sense. I'll open an issue
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snarfed zapier++
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Loqi zapier has 1 karma over the last year
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ferz I've a question about "Selfdogfood instead of email" from Main_Page to translate it properly in italian. It means that IndieWeb people will use IndieWeb standards and principles instead to discuss it only?
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aaronpk ^^ excellent example of why jargon like "selfdogfood" isn't helpful
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GWG jackjamieson, we should stop relying on snarfed and aaronpk for all of our silo integrations
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GWG Let's build some
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snarfed agreed! if only there was a recent design proposal...hmm let's see...
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jackjamieson snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (79 in all channels)
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[kevinmarks786] @ferz We're moving away from selfdogfooding to "eat what you cook" - we should probably rephrase the English there too
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[miklb] that’s an odd phrase to IMO
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[schmarty] ferz: that is not what we intend that wording to mean. instead we encourage people to build things and use them rather than holding long discussions on email lists.
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ferz aaronpk: can I use such periphrasis in the italian version or you prefer "eat what you cook" translation?
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ferz [schmarty]: thank you
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[schmarty] we absolutely discuss things here in the IndieWeb IRC/Slack/Matrix/etc channels
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[miklb] schmarty++
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Loqi schmarty has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (69 in all channels)
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[schmarty] loqi: nice
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[tantek] curious to see how "eat your own cooking" translates into Italian (and other languages)
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[schmarty] it also makes me realize that that principal is a bit muddy.
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[tantek] it's why there's two
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[schmarty] i think the dichotomy is more "talking/arguing" vs "doing/using".
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[miklb] yes. I cooked professionally for a long time. I rarely “ate what I cooked”
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[schmarty] and the email thing is a very specific historical example of "talking/arguing"
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[tantek] [schmarty] unfortunately it's not just historical. if only it were so 😭
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[tantek] the email thing is still dominant in tech innovation/standards "culture"
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[schmarty] [tantek]: i realize, but for folks who haven't been involved in a technical standards email heck, it's not a shared past experience!
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[tantek] though it has shifted a bit to tweet + Medium thought piece
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[miklb] less talking, more action
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[miklb] more doing
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[schmarty] so it's a reference that a subset of devs will identify with
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aaronpk that's a really good point. at this point we have a larger audience that is not part of any standards group, so it's not really relatable anymore
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aaronpk tweetstorms and medium thoughtpieces are much more relatable 😂
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[schmarty] haha
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[schmarty] "tweetstorms and medium thoughtpieces are [...] relatable" -- aaronpk
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[tantek] yes good point aaronpk, it's likely new folks today to indieweb can relate more to the tweedium than the email
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[schmarty] tweedium!
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aaronpk tweedium noooo not more made up words 😂
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[tantek] (yes I did just portmanteau that)
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[schmarty] i want to minus that for its semantic meaning, but plus it for the very good portmanteau
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[tantek] though apparently it's an actual service to turn tweet storms into Medium posts 😂
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[tantek] (.com)
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[schmarty] ha oh no! of course it is!
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aaronpk oh no
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[tantek] oh hey new POSSE approach then. post on your own blog -> auto-tweetstorm -> tweedium to Medium
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[tantek] is seriously resisting whats iszing
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snarfed also there are two conflated principles here. one is actively using the things you build yourself, aka selfdogfood. the other is to prefer action (iterating, experimenting) over just talking, aka "rough consensus and running code" (IETF).
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snarfed related, but not the same
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[miklb] +1
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[schmarty] snarfed++ yes! haha that was something i was having trouble articulating.
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Loqi snarfed has 25 karma in this channel over the last year (80 in all channels)
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[tantek] didn't I say that snarfed? about the two parts?
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[tantek] literally 3 & 4 on https://indieweb.org/principles
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snarfed [tantek]: yes you said "it's why there are two." i elaborated and emphasized. hope that's ok. :P
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[tantek] ah sorry - I misunderstood 🙂
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[kevinmarks786] This is the main page summary though, which conflates then a bit
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[kevinmarks786] And has selfdogfood twice
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[tantek] summaries have to conflate, that's kinda inherent 😂
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[tantek] anyway long past meta this
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[kevinmarks786] In French you'd probably say bricolage - not sure if there is an Italian equivalent
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[kevinmarks786] rattoppando?
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Zegnat Hello IndieWeb :) Time for the weekend, so hopefully time for IndieWeb
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Zegnat also declares IRC bankruptcy on all of last week
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[schmarty] scrollbackforgiveness++
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Loqi scrollbackforgiveness has 1 karma over the last year
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Zegnat I am so happy I do not put chat in my reader. I can never bring myself to hit that sweet “mark all as read” there
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jacky can you put it in your reader?
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snarfed streams++
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Loqi streams has 1 karma over the last year
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snarfed inbox--
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Loqi inbox has -1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] inbox--
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Loqi inbox has -2 karma over the last year
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[tantek] haha Inbox less than zero!
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[eddie] jacky: You can't
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[eddie] I've tried lol
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[eddie] 🤦
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jacky lolol
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[schmarty] be an Inbox Nero 🎻🏙
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ferz When you edit Main_Page there are two closing div without any open div
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[tantek] ferz wiki questions - let's chat those in the indieweb-meta channel - thank you!
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Zegnat jacky: I am not sure the question is whether one can put an IRC channel in a reader, the question is whether one should.
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ferz [tantek]: ok, thank you
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[tantek] I remember when I could put my twitter reading stream into a chat client (Adium)
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[tantek] (when Twitter supported XMPP)
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gRegorLove Those were fun times
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[eddie] Well, "whether one should" is definitely saved when "one can't" 😆
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gRegorLove Is it just too many entries? I see it has h-feed
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[eddie] The issue is the permalink, it's based on a single date
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gRegorLove Ah, gotcha
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[eddie] Actually now I remember my issue might have been Aperture not the chat
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[eddie] So I withdraw my objections 🙂
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aaronpk Oh right I remember this
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[kevinmarks786] More reminiscing https://twitter.com/mala/status/1139613553491451904?s=20
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[tantek] plus Cambridge Analytica, plus ...
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Happy to announce @Kitt will be speaking on “On Contractions & Expansions” @IndieWebSummit 2019!" https://tantek.com/2019/164/t2/kitt-speaking-indiewebsummit (from https://aaronparecki.com/2019/06/14/21/)
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[tantek] Does anyone have a feature on their site to just turn their icon/avatar a solid color? E.g. use-case: https://twitter.com/hashtag/BlueForSudan
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[tantek] (instead of having to make a PNG by hand, upload it etc.)
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jacky hmm
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jacky that could be achieved with some CSS tbh
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jacky with some pseudo-elements
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jacky considers adding this
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sknebel jacky: for display yes, for consumers expecting an image it's trickier
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sknebel e.g. if you want it to show up in peoples feed readers
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[tantek] jacky, yeah that's kinda what I was thinking, some CSS tweaking
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[tantek] then I got to think ooh a whole blue theme
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[tantek] to make a bigger point
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jacky ha perhaps!
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[grantcodes] I have something I like that is tangentially related, if a user doesn't have an avatar (or their image is broken - mostly twitter) then my site will show a emoji to represent a person. I should really cache the images, but this is just css and better than broken images 🙂
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[tantek] how did you deal with the challenge that [schmarty] confronted with the web ring emojis?
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[grantcodes] I don't. I just manually picked like 8 - 10 emojis.
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KartikPrabhu maybe could use a data-uri for the img src
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[grantcodes] It's mainly from bridgy KartikPrabhu, but that method would mean I could just update the database, but it would make the db big
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KartikPrabhu [grantcodes]: oh sorry, I meant for the blue avatar thing that [tantek] asked about. not missing avatars
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[grantcodes] Oh yeah, that too 😛
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KartikPrabhu a solid color base64 encoded gif should be pretty small (I guess)
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[tantek] or PNG for that matter
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KartikPrabhu I usually only use PNG if I need transparent pixels. Solid color mostly gif or sv
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KartikPrabhu svg*