#indieweb 2019-07-10

2019-07-10 UTC
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aaronpk I jokingly said indieweb is more like a "neighborweb" than a "fediverse" earlier, but it's been sinking in https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2019-07-09#t1562708687806700
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Loqi [aaronpk] maybe instead of the fediverse, we have the neighborweb
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aaronpk I think that's one of the really nice things about the indieweb, that we do encourage small groups and clusters, and have things that work together in small ways, rather than trying to make everything work exactly like twitter
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jacky neighborweb++
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Loqi neighborweb has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (3 in all channels)
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aaronpk if we end up replicating twitter, except with individual websites instead of literally twitter.com, we'll end up with all the same problems twitter has anyway
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jacky right
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jacky playing a more annoying version of whack-a-mole too
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aaronpk hah right. cause at least twitter can control both sides of stuff if they want to make a change quickly
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jacky right
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jacky one bad spec and we got neighbor vandals
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[tantek] hence the important to develop better mute, block, and abuse handling related UX while we're still "small"
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[tantek] importance*
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GWG Any ideas on that?
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[tantek] GWG, if you like you could POSSE tweet about controversial topics and I guarantee you will start to see low grade levels of abuse that will help you consider / focus on how to solve it for yourself
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[tantek] I have plenty of such ideas
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GWG I think trolling is a bad idea for me
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KartikPrabhu what is abuse?
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Loqi Report abuse (AKA report inappropriate) is a feature in many (most?) silos for notifying the silo owners that a specific user, post, or comment is abusive https://indieweb.org/abuse
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GWG People already take my jokes seriously
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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aaronpk is trolling trolls actually trolling? or does it cancel out?
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GWG I just wondered if we had any prior serious discussions about how to do this
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GWG Serious as in, more than casual
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[tantek] GWG, not suggesting trolling at all
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[tantek] these days if you express strong opinions on ethical matters you will almost certainly get abuse
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GWG I am still wondering what makes petermolnar's friends think I am crazy
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[tantek] maybe petermolnar should invite them to an IndieWebCamp near them
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GWG I am just curious.
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GWG Either way, I should post more
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GWG I still haven't done a post on IWS
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GWG It's so hard to say something unique
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[tantek] GWG, I guarantee whatever you write from your perspective will be unique 🙂 and greatly appreciated!
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GWG I talk myself out of too many things
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[jk] I’m posting this here purely for humorous effect. David Gelertner wants you own your own data, and he (plus his four cofounders, a former Goldman Sachs vice president, a doctor-entrepreneur, and a PR executive) are doing...something something mumble blockchain. https://www.wired.com/story/mirror-worlds-creator-displace-facebook-blockchain/
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[tantek] It's interesting that the press really likes the appeal-to-authority narrative enough to report on it, even when they themselves: "Technical details are ... scant. So scant that, after much pondering, it’s difficult to piece together exactly what Gelernter, who holds the title “chief visionary officer,” is proposing. Other than to say that yes, it will be “on the blockchain.”"
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KartikPrabhu can Loqi scream "BLOCKCHAIN!!!" every time it is mentioned?
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[tantek] better yet, Loqi should make a blockchain joke everytime it's mentioned
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[Rose] Blockchain, the solution to all political problems - according to politicians, not according to anyone else.
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[Rose] Good morning indieweb.
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GWG Morning
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KartikPrabhu BLOCKCHAIN!!!!
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KartikPrabhu :P
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gRegorLove That was a lot of instances of "blockchain" without Loqi nudging to -dev :)
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KartikPrabhu there's probaly a time separation between posts
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omz13 Morning
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Loqi rise and shine!
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omz13 I tend to think of blockchain like a unicorn... people have heard of it but nobody has seen it or knowns what it really is (well, apart from it being magical)
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patterson blockchain has all the inherent excitemt to me of a write once ledger
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patterson Excitement.
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patterson Double entry bookkeeping get my juices flowing
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patterson It'sw like the first WalkMan. Slow and mechanical
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patterson Powered by Greed
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petermolnar GWG there was misunderstanding; you wrote 2 of your coworkeers believe aaronpk is crazy, I reacted to that
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petermolnar [tantek]: a blochain joke should always contain and print all the previous blockchain jokes as well
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GWG petermolnar, understood....
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GWG Anyone have any Indieweb plans today?
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[jgmac1106] may work on my edu106 class which is me also rethinking the IndieWeb 101 template
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AkyRhO Good morning Indieweb
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AkyRhO I'm curious about Known and i'd like to try it - does anyone know if I can test it somewhere online? I'd like to avoid the hassle to make it work locally if it's possible
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[jgmac1106] AkyRho I keep a test suite open where I can give you admin priviledges if you want to take it for a spin
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[kimberlyhirsh] I'm learning Git. That's my IndieWeb plan for the day.
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[jgmac1106] kimberlyhirsh++
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Loqi kimberlyhirsh has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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[grantcodes] Nice [kimberlyhirsh] I've been using git for years but still only maybe remember about 5 commands and have to google how to do something complicated every few months 😛
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aaronpk same haha
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[kimberlyhirsh] Yeah. I think it's the kind of thing where it'll always be valuable to have reference material at the ready.
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[kimberlyhirsh] My husband who is not /not/ a big deal in OER circles is certain that versioning control, esp. as implemented via Git, is what the OER world needs, but Git itself is too complicated for most OER creators to use. So one of the things I'm keeping in mind as I do this is what would a VCS explicitly for educational materials look like?
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[kimberlyhirsh] Got started using the Library Carpentry lessons, which I only know about because of chrisaldrich.
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[kimberlyhirsh] But also taking a look at the Pro Git book.
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[kimberlyhirsh] And will probably play with GitHub's Hello World guide, too.
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[grantcodes] what is oer?
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Loqi OER is an acronym for open educational resources which are educational resources, including courses, lessons, and other media or materials used for learning purposes https://indieweb.org/OER
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[kimberlyhirsh] Look at me with my ed jargon.
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[grantcodes] Heh. But I am sure it would be useful in that world. There are lots of gui based tools for git too, that should be easier to learn
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omz13 If you're on the mac, a nice (and free!) GUI for git is https://fork.dev - makes using it a lot easier.
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omz13 BTW, Fork also runs on windows (but I use the mac version so can't comment on the Windows one, but the mac one is really nice)
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AkyRhO jgmac1106: it would be nice of you, thanks!
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AkyRhO jgmac1106++
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Loqi jgmac1106 has 26 karma in this channel over the last year (121 in all channels)
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jgmac1106 just /msg me an email address
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AkyRhO jgmac1106: done
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jgmac1106 invite sent, please note it is out of date…I have too many Known instances…will work to get the demo site up to date as people wanted a tutorial update anyways
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AkyRhO jgmac1106: no problem, i just wanted a quick preview before digging into it
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AkyRhO just a quick question though, is it possible to automatically share my notes on twitter/mastodon with Known?
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jgmac1106 I don’t have a twitter account associated with that Known instance
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jgmac1106 Mastodon is automatic that is a plugin
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jgmac1106 you would have to apply for a new twitter app and that takes 1-2 days now due to Twitter API changes, but anymore specific we shpould head to #knownchat and not main channel
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AkyRhO sure
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AkyRhO i'll have a look and come to #knownchat if I have more questiosn
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AkyRhO thanks again
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jgmac1106 gave you admin rights, hitting a Phish show tonight so may not have time to update to 0.9.9 but will see
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Add Webmention support to your website in ten minutes | Ctrl blog" https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/setup-webmention.html (from https://aaronparecki.com/2019/07/10/14/)
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strk hi there, do you know about https://id4me.org ?
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[tantek] js;dr
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sknebel Vaguely aware of it
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[snarfed] i like some of these "small tech" principles from aral, back in march. they echo many of our own. https://ar.al/2019/03/04/small-technology/
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[snarfed] Built by humans for humans
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[snarfed] Built by individuals and organisations
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[snarfed] Peer-to-peer
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[snarfed] Private by default
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[snarfed] Favours small over big, simple over complex, and modular over monolithic
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[snarfed] Respects human rights, effort, and experience
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[snarfed] Human scale
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[snarfed] some ideology/dogma in them, but surprisingly not too heavy handed
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[snarfed] private by default in particular is interesting and a bit provocative for this group, maybe worth thinking about more
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[snarfed] probably applies to platforms more than individual web sites though
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[tantek] private by default = stop energy. it also violates (in practice) "small over big, simple over complex, and modular over monolithic"
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sknebel Maybe? Certainly seeing interest in documenting stuff privately - although there's always the question then if it has to be on a "site", but that hopefully allows still some sharing
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[tantek] [snarfed] there was a lot of obsessing / hand-wringing over "must support private on day 1" type discussions at FSWS2010 by a lot of folks who just ended up never building anything
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[tantek] it's not a maybe. I've definitely seen "private by default" cause stop energy
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sknebel Was directed at sbarfed, was still typing
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[snarfed] oh sure, "on day 1" is harsher. and yeah all those points are true. *and yet* it may still be desirable and worth considering
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[snarfed] "i don't want the world to see my stuff" is one of the most common reasons i hear from people for not having their own web site
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[tantek] our (indieweb folks) attitude at the time was, great, you go figure that out, we're going to work on *simpler* first, just public posting, because frankly, that's the use-case a lot of us were trying to *replace behaviorally* (posting on Twitter, etc.)
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[tantek] snarfed, sure, it's a legit use-case!
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[tantek] just not necessary to make progress
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[snarfed] all true. which we did. and now that we have enough of those basics working fairly well, i'm glad private posts are becoming a priority!
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[tantek] sort of and sort of 🙂
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[snarfed] sure. it may be a higher priority for gen 3/4 than 1/2
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[tantek] it's a higher priority for larger impact, frankly
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[tantek] the harms from social media, misinformation etc. come from the "public posts ecosystem" and all the rage-amplifying algorithms, which are mostly about public posts being shared around
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[tantek] from a systems perspective, it makes sense to put a lot of energy into solving that, before say, I have a few photos I only want to share with family/friends
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[KevinMarks] which is more webmention filtering/moderation/tuning
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[tantek] even if we "only" displaced the existing toxic social media "public posts ecosystem", that would be tremendous achievement that would benefit civil discourse, media, democracy, etc.
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[snarfed] hmm maybe. those harms need a bigger user base to show up significantly, though, while gen 3/4 people want private posts now
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[snarfed] regardless, we can walk and chew gum. i'm glad we're actively thinking about both now!
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[tantek] it has reached the point where there are now several (numerous?) people who have "left facebook" for public posts, but are still there for private posts
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[tantek] so one of the motivations driving getting private posts working is to enable those that have already scaled down their public social media usage, to cut cords completely
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[snarfed] definitely
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[KevinMarks] private+ discoverable is tricky. so far that seems to mean anchoring to phone number
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[snarfed] lots of people here are working on auth-based private post techniques, which are great, but heavy. i'm hoping to push more soon on the no auth, just secret URLs approach
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[tantek] snarfed, flickr style capability URLs?
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[snarfed] KevinMarks, maybe! private + discoverable is definitely harder, though. glad we're starting w/just private, following tantek's walk first, then run urging
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petermolnar oh, aral, that's a name I have not heard in a long time
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[snarfed] tantek, probably? i don't know them. i'm thinking no tokens or expiration or capabilities, just posts that are not in feeds and under a path prefix that's blocked in robots.txt
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[snarfed] goal is the absolute least friction for sharing with non-technical people: just click the link and it works
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petermolnar I'm with [tantek] on the private by default thing; people tend to approach privacy these days from a strictly technical perspective
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petermolnar re [snarfed] ""i don't want the world to see my stuff"" these people have not heard of screenshot tools
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[snarfed] petermolnar: this is privacy, not security. malicious friends are an easy but unrealistic threat model.
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[tantek] snarfed, malicious exes are a very real threat model 😞
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petermolnar privacy and security are two very similar, if not the same in many cases, things
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[snarfed] sure. i'll retreat to, it's both a less common and more difficult threat model, so i'm going to walk before i run
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[snarfed] good news is, many of our existing CMSes already support these kinds of unlisted posts out of the box, including wordpress, and maybe known?
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[tantek] "unlisted" is an interesting way of distinguishing it
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petermolnar I also can't stand behind the "just click the link and it works" approach; I still belive education needs to happen and making all the things simple© by hinding complexity is not sustainable
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[tantek] a few years of my blog was "unlisted" because I didn't want it in search results
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petermolnar unlisted == security by obscucity?
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petermolnar obscurity
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[tantek] but it was still "public" for people to follow on my site
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[tantek] it wasn't very obscure at all
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[tantek] just not search indexed
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[snarfed] petermolnar: wow, definitely not for my use case. i want family to see pictures that other people don't see. i have zero need for my non-technical family to understand DNS, SSO, or anything technical for that to wokr.
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[tantek] definitely altered (felt a bit more free) about how and what I posted about
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[snarfed] educating/evangelizing indieweb is nice, but meaningfully lower priority itch, at least for me
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GWG Are we discussing parent posts again?
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[snarfed] GWG i don't think so
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GWG private
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petermolnar [snarfed]: that's the other end of the spectrum. The ideal solution imo is in between; some technicality, but not plumbing level. Or if plumbing, make it happen with a GUI.
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GWG Excuse me
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petermolnar btw the private by default... doesn't it somehow go against the whole idea of www?
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[snarfed] maybe? i'm losing the thread there. my UX use case is sharing privately. unlisted posts do that with a big accessibility gain compared to any kind of auth, while sacrifice only a small amount of security. that tradeoff sounds great to me personally. others can make other choices!
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[snarfed] (sorry, that was re technicality/plumbing)
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[tantek] snarfed, I did whole unlisted archives for at least a few months (a year or two?) when I started blogging
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petermolnar [snarfed]: to be completely honest, the ideal solution to your use is vpn + autodiscovery smb drive
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[tantek] eventually I did a few one-off unlisted posts among a list of posts that were indexed etc.
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[tantek] petermolnar, I'm not sure that's what "ideal" means 🙂
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[snarfed] lol yeah that almost sounds like a joke
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[snarfed] tantek: yes! should have said earlier: your unlisted real world experience is hugely valuable here
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[tantek] just realized I confused sknebel and snarfed because neither has an icon (so they get a system default) and both start with an "s" and are able the same text length
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[snarfed] did you ever use it deliberately to share links w/only some people, since you knew other people wouldn't find/see them?
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[tantek] snarfed, only indirectly because I "knew" not many people followed my "blog" at that time
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[tantek] I didn't have an atom feed back then so I "knew" only people that I "knew" were actually reloading my blog home page to see updates
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[tantek] my blog home page was also *not* my site home page
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[tantek] it did help me get into blogging though. that feeling of a "smaller audience" that I could write to/for that would be more "understanding"
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[snarfed] got it. so it was more overall "this is mostly just friends" than targeted specific posts or audiences
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[tantek] haven't really thought about that use-case until you helped bring it up
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[tantek] yes
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[tantek] funny thing, Twitter started like that too
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[snarfed] cool. i'll try sharing an unlisted post w/just family soon and document how it goes
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[tantek] no one was indexing it at the start because it was too small, too ephemeral
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petermolnar (second round, I cleared what I wrote first): personal opinion: we are using web solutions for things that are never meant to be web problems. Private photo album sharing should have been done via network shares, but network shares via WAN are ugly. People want private, but WAN accessible things, and I think these to contradict eachother.
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[tantek] snarfed, cool, if this is enough of a "thing" - unlisted posts - perhaps it can be worth documenting with a few examples
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petermolnar wait... so unlisted in search engines is equal to some level of private?
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[snarfed] in search engines and on your site, ie in feeds or site search. yes!
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petermolnar that's exactly what security by obscurity is referring to in most cases
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[snarfed] yes! agreed. which i described before as giving up a bit of security
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[snarfed] for most people, their private photos are a small, low value target, so the threats/risk are minor, so a bit less security will often be ok for many people
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[snarfed] tantek: will do!
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[KevinMarks] Mastodon puts noindex headers on unlisted posts
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[snarfed] petermolnar: re WAN, understood. everyone does everything over WAN these days though, including IndieWeb, so here we are
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GWG Re unlisted, I have some terminology issues to figure out on that
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petermolnar right, but my website is meant to be - designed to be! - a "WAN" (anyone in the world) share. My holiday photos should be "LAN" (friends and family) shares. The problem is my "LAN" is split between countries, cities, flats.
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[snarfed] right, hence WAN/LAN are probably no longer good terms. public vs private are better
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[snarfed] (and not plumbing-centric)
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petermolnar fair point, and agreed, though I need to make myself redefine that private != secret
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[snarfed] and/or that privacy requires "security," especially strong kinds. you're right that they're related, but they are different
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GWG Do we have this documented somewhere on the wiki?
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petermolnar I'm trying to find a very good post on this (public vs private vs secret) but I'm getting lost in my archives
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[tantek] ok I'm going to start asking
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[tantek] because that's way too much jargon for the main channel
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[tantek] what is a WAN
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "WAN" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "WAN is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] what is a LAN
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "LAN" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "LAN is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[snarfed] lol. just let them fade away
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petermolnar those words are written on _every_ home router
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GWG What is private?
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Loqi private posts refer to posts or portions of posts which are private to either the author or to a limited audience chosen or previously approved by the author https://indieweb.org/private
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GWG What is unlisted?
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Loqi unlisted are publicly visible posts that are not included in a homepage or main feed https://indieweb.org/unlisted
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petermolnar so please, that's really not too much jargon
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[tantek] what is a GUI
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "GUI" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "GUI is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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GWG When your CMS using terms differently than the Indieweb community, what do you do?
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petermolnar [tantek]: a long time ago I was told not to add all the things to the wiki; GUI, WAN, LAN would definitely fall under the "just use wikipedia" category
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[tantek] WAN is an acronym for Wide Area Network, a computer network that covers a large physical area, like the internet or world wide web; the IndieWeb is itself a WAN, both a community and their personal sites around the globe.
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Loqi ok
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[tantek] petermolnar -> meta
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[jgmac1106] I do unlisted posts for specific feeds in Known and specific posts on my website
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[snarfed] [jgmac1106] ah! do you know if known hides them in feeds, site search, and robots.txt?
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[jgmac1106] Nope not all
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[jgmac1106] Should learn.
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[snarfed] ok. i think those are the critical three for unlisted to approximate private
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[jgmac1106] Agree similar to YouTube in a way. I just meant unlisted as not in my hfeed (which means not in rss as I use Granary) never thought about robot.txt will ask another day
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[tantek] LAN is an acronym for Local Area Network, a computer network limited to a small area, often a room, or perhaps the floor of building, often based on a single router or WiFi network name; in-person [[IndieWebCamp]] participants often use the same local area network with their laptops and mobile devices on wifi.
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Loqi ok
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[snarfed] robots.txt may be less important, assuming you don't link to unlisted posts from anywhere listed
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[tantek] snarfed, definitely useful to add such criteria to /unlisted
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] [snarfed] the details of implementing unlisted posts (feeds, site search, robots) are starting to sound dev-like so I'll follow-up there
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[snarfed] good call
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[eddie] snarfed tantek I know the implementation conversation has moved but I'd just like to say I haven't used them often, but I do have unlisted posts on my site currently following almost exactly what snarfed describes
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[tantek] eddie, I think we can discuss the user-visible aspects of unlisted posts
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[tantek] like, does it show up on your home page or not?
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[tantek] does it show up in a sidefile feed or not?
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[eddie] Nope, nothing links to my unlisted posts
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[tantek] does it show up in your site's osn search feature?
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[eddie] nope
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[tantek] *own search feature
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[eddie] unlisted requires the user to know the url
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[tantek] does it show up in web search results (e.g. when you use a site: search parameter) ?
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[eddie] fair question
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[tantek] does it show up in your own post archives?
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[eddie] I haven't tested that haha
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[eddie] not my archivevs
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[tantek] these are all user-level questions that are worth asking / discussing here 🙂
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[eddie] archives*
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[eddie] absolutely
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[tantek] (didn't necessarily mean you personally 🙂 )
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[eddie] 😆
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[tantek] the implementation choices behind those questions are all dev topics
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[eddie] that makes sense
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[snarfed] eddie did you use your unlisted posts as a way to share privately with just some people?
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[eddie] I will say I haven't used them much. 😆
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[eddie] but yes, that was the intention
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[snarfed] eddie++ cool! great precedent. mind adding yourself to https://indieweb.org/unlisted#IndieWeb_Examples ?
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Loqi eddie has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (100 in all channels)
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[eddie] Sure
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petermolnar I have some unlisted endpoints which I share directly only, but it's all manual, and I have a basic http auth on it as well. The auth should pop up with a sentence that essentially tells you the username/password, but someone recently pointed out that chrome doesn't display the alert text any more
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[snarfed] "essentially" meaning people who know you will probably already know it?
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[snarfed] actually that UX is even more interesting than the security. the password prompt is a clear signal to people the post is private, so they can feel "safer" about it, and also know that they shouldn't share it
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[snarfed] i wonder if a bright visible "this post is private" indicator on the page would have the same effect. not sure
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[eddie] That is an interesting UX. Reminds me of things like GitHub when deleting a repo, where you have to type the name of the repo
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[eddie] something that breaks you out of the click and move on cycle to think about what you're about to do or view
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[snarfed] it also helps discoverability. you can link to password-protected posts from public posts, eg an "all photo albums" page
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[snarfed] however, it's hard to pick a password that friends and family will all know but other people can't easily figure out
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[snarfed] tradeoffs whee
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[eddie] Well I think what petermolnar was saying is the password is shown on the page
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[eddie] or is supposed to be except Chrome I guess broke things
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[eddie] So you open up the page and it says "Username: me, Password: you". "Please enter username and password"
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[snarfed] he said "essentially," which i expect isn't quite that. i don't know what the point of literally showing the password would be. basically just a captcha?
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[eddie] That was how I understood it. A captcha
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[eddie] Unless it's like "the username is the city I live in"
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[eddie] Which is "essentially" the username for anyone that know sme
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[tantek] based on personal experience, I think I'm pretty convinced that an "unlisted blog" is a good way to get started writing on the web
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[tantek] it's a bit more forgiving as it were
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[snarfed] yup. i've helped a handful of people start blogs recently, and they all asked for password protected to start, but when i offered just blocking search engines, that made them all happy
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[tantek] and the cool thing is, you can still participate in all the "social web" aspects like peer to peer comments with webmention etc
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[tantek] wow
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[tantek] this is making me rethink Getting Started a bit
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[tantek] I still think there's value in having a personal site home page - and maybe "just" a photo, name, bio is enough for that. With a link to an unlisted blog in a subfolder (not indexed by search engines)
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[tantek] especially for folks who have specifically already chosen to *not* participate in any kind of "public" social media
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[snarfed] tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 19 karma in this channel over the last year (120 in all channels)
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[tantek] unlisted << Brainstorming: consider designing and documenting a [[Getting Started]] setup with a public home page that links to a separate entirely unlisted blog (like in a subfolder) that is blocked from bots and search. Goals: immediately have a public presence on the web (useful for [[contact]], [[payment]] etc. as well as [[IndieAuth]] sign-ins), and a "safer" place to write your thoughts where you don't have to worry about immediate search eng
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[tantek] discovery.
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Loqi ok, I added "Brainstorming: consider designing and documenting a [[Getting Started]] setup with a public home page that links to a separate entirely unlisted blog (like in a subfolder) that is blocked from bots and search. Goals: immediately have a public presence on the web (useful for [[contact]], [[payment]] etc. as well as [[IndieAuth]] sign-ins), and a "safer" place to write your thoughts where you don't have to worry about immediate search eng" to the "See Also" section of /unlisted https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=63494&oldid=63493
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[tantek] snarfed, added brainstorm here: feel free to comment with your personal experience! https://indieweb.org/unlisted#public_homepage_and_unlisted_blog
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[snarfed] thanks! will do
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[tantek] snarfed, in particular, I'm curious about your experience with people caring (or not) that their blog had a separate "feed" that others could "follow", or if they preferred not to have that, and instead only allow people read their posts directly on their site
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[tantek] (with perhaps new "social readers" being an exception that are able to read the h-feed right on the blog home page itself)
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[snarfed] none of them mentioned or had any thoughts on following or readers
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[snarfed] they didn't really think of their blog as overlapping with social media at all. they expected to post primarily long form articles. no awareness of microblogging etc iirc
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[tantek] I'm thinking "no feed by default" for an "unlisted blog" as there are some indexers that still index just feeds, and other bots repurpose feed files for spam posting etc.
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[tantek] so far as far as we know, h-feed hasn't been hit by them, so that's likely ok to keep (for now?)
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[KevinMarks] There was a mastodon instance that shut down and then was concerned that it had all (including unlisted) been archived
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[KevinMarks] https://bune.city/2019/05/archive-team-and-the-fediverse/
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[wtmonroe] So, as someone who is just getting started, who is using WordPress, and who might appreciate the ability to participate in indieweb technologies (eg, webmention) on an "unlisted" blog or one that prevented search engines in the robots.txt file I would be interested in a "Getting Started" resource like the one you describe.
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[wtmonroe] I'd be happy to assist too.
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[tantek] Welcome [wtmonroe] and thank you for helping confirm a hypothesis!
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[tantek] [wtmonroe] would you be interested in occasionally publishing a "public" post that *did* get indexed etc., like a position piece to reach more people (the supposed "Medium" use-case)
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[wtmonroe] Glad to! I'm learning quite a bit but I'd like for some of my "learning" to be a little low key (not searchable)...but I'd still like to interact with others.
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[snarfed] KevinMarks: to be fair, that was evidently a single archive team member on their own, ie "rogue," and they got kicked out for it. https://bune.city/2019/05/archive-team-and-the-fediverse/#archive-teams-response
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[tantek] [wtmonroe] that's a great way to put it "like for some of my "learning" to be a little low key (not searchable)...but I'd still like to interact with others.
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[wtmonroe] [tantek] yes, that scenario does sound useful.
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[tantek] Kevinmarks, can you document that site and what happened (including the follow-up [snarfed] noted) on /site-deaths ?
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[wtmonroe] [tantek] in fact, I've created a single blog on my "professional" page and a blog on a dedicated "stream" page to work out some of these issues...but I'm trying to remain flexible. Also, as a college instructor who leads courses on educational technology, I'm mindful that I want to chart a path that I can comfortably explain to my students who may want quite a bit of privacy, at least at first.
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[tantek] [wtmonroe]++
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Loqi [wtmonroe] has 1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] what is public
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "public" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "public is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] public is /publics
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Loqi ok
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[tantek] close enough and steers people to learn more about what they thought they meant or want to mean by "public"
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[tantek] [tantek] set the channel topic: This channel is for user-friendly chat! Watch Summit 2019 videos: https://indieweb.org/2019/Schedule. Next meetups: https://indieweb.org/next-hwc, Code of conduct: https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct, log http://chat.indieweb.org/today
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petermolnar re password (sorry I was afk): when one use basic http auth, a popup comes up, asking for username and password. In there, a text should be shown - at least that's how it is in FF and used to be in everywhere else -, which, in my case, says "Surname of inventor of printing, small case" - this is what I said that it's essentially telling you the username and the password (this predates the wordpress changes)
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petermolnar however, Chrome doesn't show this text any more...
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petermolnar plumbing-wise this is http://nginx.org/en/docs/http/ngx_http_auth_basic_module.html#auth_basic
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petermolnar UI-wise this is nearly the same as a JS-alert with a note that this is private
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petermolnar but unlike that, this certainly block indexing or any sort of crawling
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petermolnar while for humans it shouldn't be a problem to figure out once they know the URL
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[tantek] petermonlar, interesting. Is there a name for this approach? (besides "basic http auth" which isn't very user-friendly). Either way, could you document this on a new subsection in https://indieweb.org/unlisted#Brainstorming ? It does provide additional advantages as you noted, and is worthy of consideration for any future "unlisted" solution/approach
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petermolnar it's ancient enough not to have nice user friendly terms ;)
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petermolnar this is the auth method where you can do a url as http://username:password@example.com to bypass the popup
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[snarfed] staying in UX land, we might call this password protected, with a password (hint) that people who already know you will know
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petermolnar apparently this is a known chrome "bug" https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=544244#c32
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[snarfed] or "challenge response," "question based," "knowledge based," etc
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petermolnar fair point, it's certainly similar to those text based captcha challenges, eg. one + one = ?
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petermolnar type it in numbers
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petermolnar apparently this has been a problem for years in chrome and one of the wordpress admin protection approaches was using the same method I'm using but with random challenge-response
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petermolnar and chrome broke it, because why not
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[snarfed] ah right, there's a distinction between purely captcha, to block robots etc, vs actually knowledge based, to limit to people who know you
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jacky hey githubbers - does anyone use their notification stream as a channel in their reader?
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[snarfed] yup
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aaronpk I should try that
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aaronpk tho my notifications on GitHub aren't super helpful I feel
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sknebel I'd need filtering on that
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sknebel Based on how much "I need to do something" vs "I'm interested in what others do"
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[snarfed] yeah, is your reader an inbox, a todo list, or a stream is a well-trod question here. personal, divisive, important
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[eddie] I subscribed to my GitHub notifications feed
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[eddie] Because it shows the issue or PR as the item even if something under it is updated
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[eddie] It’s pretty lame in a reader
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[eddie] So it’s really strange and unhelpful, despite the fact that I still have it active in a channel of my reader
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[eddie] I would like to personally set up something with GitHub more personalized using their API.
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aaronpk oh right, I remember that, I did try it once and then removed it
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[snarfed] oh different feeds. i only have stars and follows in my reader, not issues etc
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[zach] I wrote a script to pull things in via the api, but never put it in git and lost in when I was moving and my server fell off a truck.
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aaronpk that story took a turn I didn't expect
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[eddie] Oh wow lol yeah
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jacky loll
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jacky that would be something I'd want
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jacky GitHub/GitLab activity feed made into a h-feed/ATOM feed of sorts
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jacky (plz use h-feed)
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[tantek] right?!?
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[tantek] also wat - "my server fell off a truck" ?!?
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jacky the homebrew lifestyle
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[tantek] totally different meaning to a server being "taking down" (off the truck)
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petermolnar hm. I see a market opportunity: the server backpack for digital nomads; global 4g, solar panels, ultra low power arm sbc
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petermolnar btw "fell off the truck" is a slang term in Hungarian for stolen
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[tantek] same in US English
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jacky I'm like 70% sure that exists petermolnar tbh lol
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jacky like I _think_ I saw that on Etsy or Massdrop
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[tantek] every "smartphone" is already hardware-capable of being a server-in-a-backpack
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petermolnar half truth
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petermolnar at least I did put a worpdress with mysql on a htc desire
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petermolnar it was crushingly slow
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petermolnar but that was many moons ago
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[tantek] I want that plus a personal drone that follows me on trail runs, and hangs out a high-enough altitude to get a clear 4G signal, while having powerful line-of-sight wifi to the devices on my person
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petermolnar no, that terrifies me
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jacky oooh that'd be cool re: drone
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petermolnar someone will put a gun on it
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[tantek] indie drone
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petermolnar "personal safety"
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[tantek] petermolnar that's both already possible and not really happening
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petermolnar true
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[tantek] so not worried about it. guns on drones is pretty much a nation-state-only thing
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jacky that shouldn't have made me laugh but here we are
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jacky I can see Nerf wanting to do something in that space
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[tantek] I mean if that's your threat model you have bigger problems
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petermolnar btw hardware wise smartphones would be more, than enough, the problem is more like 4g itself, that it's not an open ip address on the web
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petermolnar nerf drone
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petermolnar lol
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[tantek] petermolnar so what we really need is more personal drones, enough to form a mesh network back to your home base
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[tantek] moar dronez plz
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jacky DroneChain
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petermolnar does a very long blink, to hide the pain
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[tantek] The nice thing is most of those drones could "just" land on top of tall buildings and still maintain their mesh, while conserving power
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petermolnar btw it's not that far fetched, the idea of swarm robotics is already being used, and was written in sci-fi in the 60s ( see The Invincible from Stanisław Lem)
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[tantek] perhaps even recharging with beetle-wing style unfolding solar panels
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petermolnar that drone mesh is a pretty cool idea to be honest
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[tantek] personal web of drones
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[tantek] I like the idea of drones removing the need for 4G
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petermolnar a long while ago I had an idea to start looking into extreme long life expetancy hardware that could serve as a wifi hotspot and be used locally in monuments or, say, gravestones, a memorial, localized website or something similar
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[tantek] extreme long life expectancy hardware -> look into what NASA/JPL uses for deep space probes (Voyager 1, 2 etc.)
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petermolnar yep, I'm aware of that, I did read about the hardware in curiosity
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petermolnar but those are mainly stuff against extreme radiation
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petermolnar not just decay
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petermolnar [tantek]: the downside of the coolness factos is the amount of drownes that would be needed
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[tantek] sure, they're hardened for their environment
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petermolnar we'd be covered in dronium soon
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[tantek] memorial localized website is legit for /longevity#Brainstorming if you want to capture a blurb
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petermolnar back to the mesh, what was the name of that super long range wifi alternative that never happened?
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petermolnar it was even present in some laptops
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petermolnar wimax
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[tantek] there was a super long range wireless modem that *did* happen called Ricochet
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[tantek] like 19 miles line-of-sight reception. it was amazing on random hilltops
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petermolnar WiMax happened, but not really, apparently, now that I'm reading about it, it basically became LTE
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[tantek] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricochet_(Internet_service) was pretty much scifi-level amazing
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petermolnar I never heard about this
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petermolnar I believe this was US only
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[tantek] it was - it was incredible though, and actual *mesh* you could pay money as a subscriber to use
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[tantek] seriously felt like someone had snuck a piece of the distant future into the present
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[tantek] sad when it went away
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[tantek] I still have a few of the individual modems, which can still be configured to act in a point-to-point way
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[tantek] (with each other, without using the mesh)
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