#indieweb 2019-10-18

2019-10-18 UTC
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[chrisaldrich] What are groups?
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Loqi group in the context of the indieweb (also "indie group" or "indie groups") is a place where people can deliberately share content with each other, not necessarily on their own domain (though likely copied from via webmention etc.) https://indieweb.org/groups
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[chrisaldrich] What are Yahoo Groups?
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Loqi Yahoo Groups is a silo for discussion forums and mailing lists https://indieweb.org/Yahoo_Groups
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[chrisaldrich] Yahoo Groups << https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups/" to the "See Also" section of /Yahoo_Groups https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=65594&oldid=65591
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[snarfed] reposting for different time zones: mastodon users, feel free to try bridgy's new mastodon support! https://brid.gy/
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Ruxton Oh how Yahoo have fallen. :(
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[tantek] snarfed++ very cool! Does this mean you have full POSSE+backfeed roundtripping working to Mastodon? Could be easier to setup than direct federation
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Loqi snarfed has 38 karma in this channel over the last year (83 in all channels)
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[fluffy] [snarfed] how does bridgy mastodon stuff differ from bridgy fed?
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[fluffy] oh, I see, it’s a direct connection thingus
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[fluffy] … I’m not sure how to actually do the connection and make this useful
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[fluffy] the “details” link from the “How do I add or remove a web site URL from my Bridgy profile?” section on the FAQ doesn’t go anywhere
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[fluffy] anyway as far as I understand this doesn’t do anything additional to what I already have from bridgy fed
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[tantek] [fluffy] I think it may do *less* than Bridgy Fed though with less work
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[tantek] POSSE + backfeed is just syndication and getting comments, likes etc.
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[tantek] whereas presumably Bridgy Fed also includes all the followed by etc. stuff
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[fluffy] yeah I just tried like connecting all my silo accounts that were supported and I’m not sure if I’m setting myself up for disaster, especially since I already use IFTTT to syndicate my atom feed to twitter which then gets re-syndicated to mastodon.social
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[fluffy] and then bridgy fed to get my posts directly on activitypub in a feed that I believe nobody actually uses
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[tantek] sounds like you need a syndication architecture diagram 🙂
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[fluffy] but I connected bridgy to my queer.party account which is where I mostly posted on 🙂
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[fluffy] er, mostly post on
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[fluffy] mastodon.social is just my backup and like… what mirrors my twitter
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[fluffy] (only one way though)
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[tantek] I have a Masto account on the XOXO server but I haven't really used it
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[tantek] mostly just to play with the UI
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[tantek] still haven't figured out what is a "good" way to use a separate Masto account from an IndieWeb perspective
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Ruxton ideally, wouldn't your main site wuld just be masto cabpable?
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[tantek] the aspects of content post / styling limitations, and someone else controlling the server / policies etc make it not very indieweb IMO, though obviously it's not as bad as a for-ad-profit silo
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[fluffy] anyway at some point I do want to implement ActivityPub as an optional thing for Publ, and I wonder how badly things will break when `@beesbuzz.biz@beesbuzz.biz` goes away and is replaced with like `@blog@beesbuzz.biz` and `@comics@beesbuzz.biz` and whatever
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[tantek] Ruxton, not necessarily, e.g. not if "masto capable" is too high of an admintax
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[fluffy] implementing activitypub is hard to do well and there’s a bunch of impedance mismatches between how it works and how Publ works
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[fluffy] like Publ is designed to be completely stateless, whereas activitypub… isn’t
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[tantek] that ^^^
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[fluffy] like, extremely isn’t
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[tantek] Ruxton, ideally Mastodon would add more standards support to "just work" with W3C Webmentions, WebSub standards etc.
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[fluffy] and like to properly do activitypub stuff I’d also have to, like, manage my own incoming shit like favorites/boosts/etc.
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[fluffy] which means also having to have a stateful store that replicates webmention.io or whatever
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Ruxton [tantek]: yep that I can agree with
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[fluffy] and at that point might as well do my own webmention endpoint
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[tantek] [fluffy] I think you have to "manage" that stuff from a UX perspective anyway, for all the moderation etc. reasons
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[fluffy] and so like this spirals out of control and scope creep happens VERY fast
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[tantek] right
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[fluffy] yeah but like right now I can offload all the hard parts onto webmention.io
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[fluffy] (and bridgy fed)
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[fluffy] the advantage of supporting activitypub myself is I can also apply the Publ permissions model for post privacy
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[fluffy] but that comes with a LOT of baggage
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[fluffy] like having to track subscribers
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[fluffy] (I offload websub responsibilities onto superfeedr)
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[fluffy] and so then like, oops, guess I might as well do my own websub too
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[fluffy] so yeah before you know it, trying to do proper mastodon/activitypub/etc. means now the nice little lego bricks of a simple publishing engine all become the gigantic behemoth I was trying to avoid in the first place
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[fluffy] gigantic, *stateful* behemoth
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[tantek] [fluffy] it is precisely that "baggage" which I believe is a mismatch of interests/burdens that I think is an architectural flaw "having to track subscribers"
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[fluffy] like one of Publ’s core principles is that it should be trivial to migrate a site onto a new server, or provide horizontal scaling by just deploying on multiple servers behind a load balancer or whatever
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[fluffy] the database is not the ground truth, the filesystem is
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[fluffy] the database only exists as a content index into the filesystem
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[tantek] those are excellent implementation principles
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[tantek] fluffy++ have you written those down on /Publ#Principles ?
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Loqi fluffy has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (35 in all channels)
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[tantek] or /Publ#Design_Principles ?
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[fluffy] I think I mentioned it on /Publ but I should make sure of that
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[tantek] that's a very good succinct list
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[fluffy] okay it’s /Publ_CMS (because of the micropub client of the same name) and I talk about some of the publishing tenets but somehow forgot to mention the statelessness
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[fluffy] so I shall address that by making a design_principles section 🙂
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[fluffy] thanks for the prod tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 19 karma in this channel over the last year (131 in all channels)
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[tantek] designprinciples++
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Loqi designprinciples has 1 karma over the last year
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[fluffy] https://indieweb.org/Publ_CMS#Core_principles
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[tantek] very nice
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[fluffy] still a bit of a WIP 🙂
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[tantek] the best stuff is 🙂
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[Rose] The last one is something I’ve been wrestling with as well
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[Rose] Currently I’m using WP but I would like to build my own CMS, however the routing stuff is boggling my mind rather.
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[fluffy] WP’s routing is horrible.
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[tantek] I presume "routing" in this context is very specific jargon for how URLs are processed
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[fluffy] MovableType did a much better job of being URI-agnostic, and MT’s strengths are what informed a lot of Publ’s design (as was the desire to avoid MT’s many weaknesses)
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[tantek] what is routing
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "routing" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "routing is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[fluffy] I guess theoretically I could allow Publ users to override its routing rules. and oh yeah I guess that’s more of a #indieweb-dev thing
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[Rose] For me this is what I think of as routing. https://symfony.com/doc/current/routing.html
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Ruxton WP's routing is as flexible as you need it to be and ANY routing should be lke that, opinionated routing (news is /news because!) doesn't help users
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[fluffy] routing is a term that refers to the way that URIs are mapped to content producers, usually in a dynamic publishing or web app context
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Loqi ok
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[Rose] We’re definitely wandering into dev territory here 😏
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[tantek] very much so. also definitions of jargon that are in terms of other jargon
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[tantek] like "controller" "action" "mapped" "content producer" etc.
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[Rose] (We did move this to dev, for anyone looking to follow!)
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[jgmac1106] It uses the Open Badges Spec (JSON-LD) but a friend built this: https://medium.com/@kayaelle/introducing-badgebot-the-worlds-first-open-badges-issuing-twitter-bot-b5ef77d950ee want to get to something similar with webmentions
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[tantek] curious how that relates to anyone's indieweb site
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[manton] [fluffy] I still don't have a good handle on how Mastodon should handle account renaming, if at all. For Micro.blog's ActivityPub support, we give people @username@yourdomain.com, and by default it can't be changed. But if someone _really_ wants to change it, I delete the the ActivityPub username manually (which should notify other Mastodon instances) and they create a new one, starting over.
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[manton] Not ideal, obviously, but I'm not sure if there is a better way. Maybe the new Mastodon 3.0 account migration stuff.
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[jgmac1106] I am saying I want to use a similar design for webmention badges. And i display my #yourock badge in my #IndieWeb site
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[tantek] makes sense
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[snarfed] [tantek] yup, full mastodon posse + backfeed. thanks!
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[snarfed] [fluffy] yes, bridgy mastodon and bridgy fed are alternatives that get you similar results. thanks for trying it!
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[fluffy] [manton] yeah mastodon account renaming is a tough problem. I’m less interested in that and more interested in being able to offer folks the ability to follow subsections of my site via different webfinger addresses rather than having to, like, see everything I post on a single cluttered timeline
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[fluffy] I mean really what I want is people to start using feed readers instead of relying on catching guppies in a firehose, but that ship seems to have sailed 😞
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bronzehedwick hi all, is there info for the next indieweb meetup in nyc? i only see the info for the one i just missed
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[jgmac1106] https://indieweb.org/Events looks like one tomorrow
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[jgmac1106] If you mean the next IWC, we organize that once a year but the semi regular meetups should be starting up again
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[jgmac1106] woo hoo after accidentlly overwriting most of my server, I am back live
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[snarfed] fluffy++ "catching guppies in a firehose" 😆 💯
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Loqi fluffy has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (37 in all channels)
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[jacek] Anybody up for a beer tonight in Brighton?;)
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Zegnat [jacek]: possibly! I don’t think we have a plan for dinner and drinks yet. But some of us are already in town.
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[snarfed] likewise, anyone in London or nearby going to this next Fri? https://redecentralize.org/events/2019-conference
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[Zegnat] [jacek] Some organiser people just left clearleft and are now walking the waterfront considering food options. We will probably coordinate in #indieweb-chat
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[jacek] I'll be there
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[jacek] Gonna be whole week from mon till Sat attending some events at mozfest
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[jacek] Thanks!
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[KevinMarks] I signed up for decentralized, will try and make it
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[tantek] I'm going to redecentralized
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[tantek] sounds like we should start a page
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[manton] Getting started on my IndieWebCamp-inspired hack day early... I've been wanting to experiment with location information in Micro.blog so I created a new blog and imported 2000+ Swarm check-ins. Still a work-in-progress! https://manton.coffee/
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Loqi Manton's Check-ins
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[schmarty] manton++ wow!
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Loqi manton has 23 karma in this channel over the last year (50 in all channels)
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ShokuninDiscord[ Tantek: hey, do you know anyone working on the TOR integration for Firefox? I think it could be a great fit for the next DWeb Meetup
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[aaronpk] manton++ amazing!
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Loqi manton has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (51 in all channels)
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[manton] Thanks y'all. [aaronpk], next step for me is probably to get OwnYourSwarm's JSON content working. I was reviewing the docs again but may wait a bit to tackle that. (What I have right now imports directly from the Foursquare/Swarm JSON export file, which unfortunately isn't complete... I have to also hit the Foursquare API for some venue coordinates.)
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[KevinMarks] Are you young to mark them up with mf2 as well?
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[KevinMarks] *going
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[manton] Definitely! I should do that now.
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[manton] Actually I can't do that perfectly the way it's structured right now, except for `p-latitude` and `p-longitude`. Might need to split out the venue name differently.
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GWG I forget how I marked up location
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GWG Wrong, I think
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[manton] I was looking at https://aaronparecki.com/checkins as a guide.
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GWG is sad at missing people in aaronpk checkin
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GWG [manton]: I do it similarly to aaronpk
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GWG Still may be wrong
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GWG Mostly how we both deal with weather
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GWG [manton]: https://david.shanske.com/kind/checkin/ If it helps
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[manton] @GWG Thanks! Yeah, that's good as another reference.
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[manton] I'm also not totally sure how much location data I want to expose yet. I need to think this through a little.
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GWG I expose only latitude longitude, and textual description. And I have a setting to hide latitude and longitude
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aaronpk [manton]: I would say mark up only enough so that it can show up nicely in a reader
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aaronpk if that means you want the reader to be able to generate a map, then include lat/lng, but if you want the reader to show only the name, then no need for lat/lng
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GWG [manton]: Look at https://github.com/indieweb/micropub-extensions/issues/16
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Loqi [dshanske] #16 New Property: location-visibility
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GWG And if I get more technical, I'll be in dev
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aaronpk GWG: nah, that's not necessary for the decision manton is making now. that's only needed once you want a checkin app to be able to toggle the visibility per checkin
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GWG aaronpk, I was only referring to my three option toggle
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GWG [manton]: I also have a feature I wrote in Austin that automatically hides details if my location is near a set of locations, including home
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[manton] Cool. Yeah, in the past even though Swarm is semi-private, I don't check in everywhere for that reason. I think my approach is going to be that older check-ins become public, but maybe where I am "today" is delayed. Not sure yet, and it's certainly different for everyone.
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[Evan_Travers] so… I’m just learning about all this… one thing I just noticed for my personal site… is that it seems that https://indiewebify.me/ fails to see the code I’ve pushed if I have gzip turned on in my middleman build system… is that a common thing?
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KartikPrabhu [Evan_Travers]: welcome. could you see if this https://python.microformats.io/ works?
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[Evan_Travers] I’ll push the gzipped version again… so far I’ve only tested with the ruby webmention client and indiewebify.me.
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KartikPrabhu what is your URL?
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[Evan_Travers] evantravers.com
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[Evan_Travers] so your python.microformats.io link works when indiewebify.me and ruby’s `webmention` gem fail… interesting.
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KartikPrabhu what about indiewebify.me is failing?
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KartikPrabhu oh I see. You have rel-me and h-card but indiewebify.me does not find them!
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk^^
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KartikPrabhu also might be better to move this conversation to #indieweb-dev
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[tantek] yes
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[Evan_Travers] is that on the slack or only on the irc?
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[tantek] [Evan_Travers] on Slack it's #indieweb-dev
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[Evan_Travers] thank you tantek!
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