#indieweb 2019-10-19

2019-10-19 UTC
[fluffy] and [dmitshur] joined the channel
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[dmitshur] my mom created (with my help) her first personal website. it's very very simple, but I'm still excited for her \o/
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ShokuninDiscord[ @tantek did you see my earlier question about mozilla + tor people
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[jgmac1106] [manton] a neat feature [mapkyca] added to Known is an optional 24 hour delay on checkins.
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[manton] [jgmac1106] Ah, good to know. I think a 24-hour delay (or maybe a few days) is what I want, at least to start with while I sort this feature out.
wolftune, marcusr, patterson, KartikPrabhu, [Lewis_Cowles] and [aaronpk] joined the channel
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[aaronpk] Hm that seems like something I could add to ownyourswarm too
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[Rose] That would be handy.
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[Rose] I'd probably want to limit it to a geographical area. E.g. when I'm travelling I don't care as much (and usually want people to find me), but at home I'd prefer a delay.
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[Rose] 8 minutes until Brighton starts!
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Loqi I added a countdown scheduled for 2019-10-19 9:00am UTC (#6667)
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Loqi Brighton starts!
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[Rose] We are live!
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[Rose] Housekeeping, bathrooms/fire escape/wifi
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Zegnat Housekeeping: “if you are on fire, run away”
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Zegnat Showing https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct
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[KevinMarks] Link to the stream?
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GWG Should I tune in?
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/2019/Brighton/Schedule
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[Rose] https://zoom.us/j/4955358768
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[Rose] We're about to demo, up to you GWG. We have new people!
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sknebel is still a fan of London hackspace rules: "First rule: don't be on fire"
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[Rose] Heehee
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[Rose] Jeremy is outlining how he sees the IndieWeb
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[Rose] *Adactio
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[Rose] "I like the IndieWeb for entirely selfish reasons, it makes me feel good" - personally I think that's great!
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petermolnar notbeingonfire++
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Loqi notbeingonfire has 1 karma over the last year
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GWG On remotely....
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Zegnat Now going to kick of demos: adactio.com
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GWG The audio is choppy, but not sure if it is on my end or yours.
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[Rose] Oh dear
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Zegnat Showing his website on mobile
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Zegnat Live demoing: making a photo post
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Zegnat https://adactio.com/notes/15986
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GWG It was on my side.
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GWG The audio is echoey though.
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[Rose] The room isn't great for echo
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petermolnar I may have broken brid.gy when trying to sign in to flickr o.O
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GWG As usual, I had to turn the volume way up
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Zegnat Now showing a photo post made yesterday: https://adactio.com/notes/15983
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Zegnat It was syndicated to Twitter & Flickr. Showing off the responses at the bottom that have been syndicated from Twitter
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Zegnat This is powered by Brid.gy
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Zegnat What is Bridgy?
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Loqi Bridgy is an open source project and proxy that implements backfeed and POSSE as a service https://indieweb.org/bridgy
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petermolnar it only happens when there's a login entry cookie on bridgy
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Zegnat Also showing the darkmode of his website by switching iOS to dark mode
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Zegnat Next up: tantek.com
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Zegnat Showing his latest post, a reply to adactio’s photo post from just now
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Zegnat http://tantek.com/2019/292/t3/nice-photo-indieweb
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] @adactio nice photo and #indieweb demo!
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Zegnat This reply has shown up on adactio.com, but is also visible as a twitter response on the syndicated tweet
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Zegnat Next up: aaronpk.com
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Zegnat Wants to show how he reads other people’s website
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Zegnat Showing https://monocle.p3k.io
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Zegnat What is Monocle?
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Loqi Monocle is an open source IndieWeb-enabled reader developed by Aaron Parecki https://indieweb.org/Monocle
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Zegnat Also shows how he uses his phone to sign in instead of having to enter a password
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Zegnat 1 new unread post in the IndieWeb Friends channel! What could it be?
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Zegnat With a single click on the favourite button in Monocle a new like post is created on aaronpk.com
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Zegnat And it also got syndicated to Twitter again, where aaronpk’s display picture now displays on adactio’s syndicated tweet
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Zegnat Also showing how he can write a text reply in Monocle, and how it shows up under adactio’s post thanks to webmentions
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Zegnat next up: rosemaryorchard.com
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Zegnat In the process of writing a new theme for her WordPress site because of small irregular styling things (as you do)
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Zegnat So much automation set up that an article can be published on a third-party site and show up on her blog
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Zegnat Showing of: https://rosemary.is/here/ where her live location is being broadcast at the moment
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Zegnat (This will not stay on permanently.)
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Zegnat Next up: paulrobertlloyd.com
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Zegnat Staticly rendered site with 11ty
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Zegnat What is Eleventy?
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Loqi Eleventy is a JavaScript based static site generator that allows the user to select their own preferred template engine and theme, which in practice can and does enable use of microformats2 https://indieweb.org/Eleventy
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Zegnat Been posting notes and photos. Accepts webmentions through webmention.io
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Zegnat Only accepts webmentions that originate as webmentions. So no responses from Twitter or elsewhere using briding tools
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Zegnat Small referene to discussions about consent for syndication.
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Zegnat Events, Bookmarks, “all the usual funky stuff”
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Zegnat Showing off a Micropub endpoint project: https://github.com/paulrobertlloyd/indiekit
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Loqi [paulrobertlloyd] indiekit: An IndieWeb publishing toolkit
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Zegnat Comes with a companion website on how to set it up: https://paulrobertlloyd.github.io/indiekit/
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Zegnat This will be able to give you a micropub endpoint for your staticly generated website
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Zegnat Big goal is to make the project configurable. He found that too many other projects were specific to certain implementations, and he could never really use them the way he wanted to
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[Rose] Paulrobertlloyd++
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Loqi Paulrobertlloyd has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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[Rose] I had the same issue back when I was using Grav, had to hack a Jekyll project to work for me and it didn't really :)
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Zegnat Hopefully the configuration ability of indiekit will allow it to be used in a different way
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Zegnat Want to build something not 100 people in the world can understand, but thousands can use
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[Rose] Wants to have one click installer for people
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[Rose] (Goal, not current status)
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Zegnat Doing a small demo of how to use a UI for configuring the endpoint instead of having to change environment variables - which are quiet geeky
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Zegnat next up: petermolnar.net
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Zegnat Switched from WordPress to his own static site generator
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Zegnat Has outsourced a lot of things: aaronpk’s Telegraph and Webmention.io for sending and receiving webmentions. Bridgy to syndicate to Flickr. Bridgy Fed to Mastodon…
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Zegnat Moved bookmarks from his site to Wallabag
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Zegnat Has a goal: now that he has the website for 20 years, he used to use Microsoft Frontpage ’98, and he would like something like that again
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Zegnat Generate a static site, “but it is graphic”
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Zegnat Another plan: outsource the search so he does not need to run any code on the server
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[Rose] "And everything just works", how many times have any of us said that? 😉
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[tantek] Up next: Zegnat
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[Rose] Next up, van derben.se/martijn
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[Rose] *vanderven.de/martijn
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[Rose] Se Thanks autocorrecyt
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[Rose] http://martijn.vanderven.se
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sknebel doesn't have a blog, but is site is still his identity on the web
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[Rose] Working link, typing is hard
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[tantek] "I put this info on Facebook, why am I not putting this on my own website instead?"
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[Rose] His website has his weight (updated 2 hours ago)
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GWG Wondering if Zegnat addressed the filed issue about food preferences
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Zegnat Next up: svenknebel.de
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Zegnat Showing of his “relatively simple” blog
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Zegnat (GWG: I did not! Maybe this weekend?)
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Zegnat ([Rose]: ooh, you using my secret redirect URL! :D )
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Zegnat Next up: jeremycherfas.net
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Zegnat Showing his home page, because tomorrow he hopes to get a new Grav theme launched, and it should look the same at the Sunday demos
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Zegnat On post pages there is an embedded stream to the side from Known where he has more fancy stuff than Grav handles
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Zegnat Also points out sparklines tracking how much spam he has received.
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Zegnat next up jtom.me
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Zegnat Found out about the indieweb just a month ago
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[Rose] Martijn you missed your swipe hidden feature ;)
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Zegnat hush, it is an easter egg
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Zegnat Quit his job to dedicate to the good things, and found out that things he were thinking about had names and had communities around them like the indieweb
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Zegnat His website is using Jekyll
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Zegnat “Recently , unfortunately, switched to Medium the silo”
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[Rose] Is interested in hosting it again and syndicating to Medium.
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[Rose] Medium is better because people "actually read it"
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Zegnat Next up: qubyte.codes
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Zegnat Recently implemented a dark mode
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Zegnat Recently also added pronouns hidden in the DOM
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Zegnat Supports webmentions, both sending and receiving.
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Zegnat Uses his own static site generator
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Zegnat “When I blog, I mostly blog about the blog”
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Zegnat Next up: seblog.nl
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Zegnat Going to login to his site. Just changed his password to do it on the demo machine
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Zegnat The form he uses to login to his site can be used by anyone to login to his site
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Zegnat Once logged in you will be able to see his checkins, though they are not public by default
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Zegnat Next up: calumryan.com
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Zegnat His CMS is slowly getting more clunky, “but it still works”
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Zegnat Various bits and peaces that have come together. Main site is a big PHP thing getting everything, but the blog part then is a static site generator
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Zegnat Aiming at good performance, lighthouse scores, etc
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Zegnat Next up: chrisburnell.com
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Zegnat Mainly posts notes
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Zegnat Introduced a beer review section to his site
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Zegnat Works through untappd
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aaronpk ownyourbeer!!
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[Rose] I'm still working on OwnYourTripIt
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Zegnat More review sections: Music reviews has a nice display of cover art for the music
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[Rose] OwnYourBeer sounds much more fun though for most people :)
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Zegnat Makes most reviews by hand as automatic collection of, e.g. the music information is still a bit away
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Zegnat adactio and tantek are now taking us into session planning
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GWG Okay, nothing for me to lurk in now
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Zegnat Cutting stream for this. Thanks everyone who has been following along!
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[frank] Oh! I need that Ownyourbeer section!
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[frank] I've been using Zapier for now to bridge Untappd to WordPress because lazy
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GWG Curious about the sessions
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[frank] Digging the login at [sebsel]’s site to see his check-ins. Great first step to private posts.
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sknebel GWG grid should be on the wiki now
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[tantek] hi [frank] will you be remote participating today?
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[frank] No I will pop in and out of sessions when I find the time. Need to buy a car first 😉
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GWG [frank]: Just a car?
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[Rose] Starting sessions in a few minutes.
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GWG I need a short rest. Will be in and out.
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[Rose] Sessions started
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[Rose] Search session is on the couches so nice streaming/recording.
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[Rose] https://github.com/teamtnt/tntsearch (from the search sessions)
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Loqi [teamtnt] tntsearch: A fully featured full text search engine written in PHP
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[Rose] For Aaron: http://tnt.studio/blog/solving-the-search-problem-with-laravel-and-tntsearch
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Zegnat Or, if you want everything from the search session: https://etherpad.indieweb.org/searching
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[tantek] Starting afternoon sessions
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[Rose] Streaming is live
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[Rose] (Has been for 6 minutes)
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[tantek] !tell [Paul_Robert Lloyd] in addition to /green_computing and /IndieWebCamp_Organizing, there's some info about a possible "sustainability statement" as a topic to discuss on the /Organizers page, I'll try to clean it up a bit to give it a proper fragment link.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] !tell [Paul_Robert Lloyd] here are some thoughts for IndieWebCamps in general: https://indieweb.org/Organizers#Sustainability
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG The next two sessions, could someone describe them to me?
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GWG I see the title, but wanted more to understand.
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[Rose] Private/Protected posts is me. I want to know what people are doing, why they are doing it, how they are doing it and suggestions
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[Rose] Licence detection algorithm (from memory): if content has multiple licences how is it decided which one should be used
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[Rose] I’m definitely not covering that one as it ought to be covered.
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GWG [Rose]: I had been asking about the Moderation/Local first session, but this is useful.
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GWG I'll switch over to the Private one likely anyway
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[Rose] Oh, sorry
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[Rose] I didn’t see the timestamp
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[dmitshur] I have a bit of a philosophical question. People here clearly feel positive sentiments on the topic of owning your data. Consider an open source project that has an issue tracker. Right now many live in silos such as on github.com and their issue tracker. So when you file an issue in someone else’s open source project, the issue lives on github.com next to the open source project.
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[dmitshur] Suppose someone hosts their own open source project and its issue tracker on their own website. It becomes viable for people to file issues against that project and be true owners of that issue, and let the OSS project know via a webmention, etc.
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[dmitshur] The philosophical question is, in an ideal situation, who do you think should own the issue for an OSS project: the OSS project or the issue author?
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aaronpk both :)
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aaronpk same as comments on posts
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[dmitshur] Are you suggesting https://indieweb.org/POSSE?
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aaronpk no
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aaronpk it's exactly analogous to commenting via webmention between two independent websites
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[dmitshur] A more true co-ownership?
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aaronpk the commenter wants to own the comment because it's something they wrote and value, and the person receiving the comment wants to own it because they got value from it
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aaronpk it's true whether it's a blog post or an OSS project issue tracker
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[dmitshur] Hmm. I guess I assumed there’s always 1 canonical original copy, and all other copies are non-canonical.
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aaronpk I think you can look at it that way, but in that case the original/canonical copy is where it was authored
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[dmitshur] But maybe the same post/issue ownership can be shared, because both parties are interested in owning it for different reasons.
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[dmitshur] Ok. So when you say “both”, it’s closer to the issue author truly owning it (in their site), and the OSS project owns a copy. If the author updates their original copy, the OSS project should mirror those changes.
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aaronpk yes, except that "should mirror those changes" is not necessarily the same thing
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[dmitshur] So there’s still one original/canonical copy located where the issue was authored, on the author’s website.
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[dmitshur] Can you clarify what you mean by “not necessarily the some thing”?
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aaronpk there are reasons someone may want to reject the author's request to change/delete a comment
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[dmitshur] I see. Fair. I didn’t mention it, but there’s an important property of the GitHub issue tracker I want to try to preserve, that it’s possible to edit your own comments. (And project owners can edit too, and edit history is preserved.)
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[dmitshur] Maybe there can be a split between... the issue author owns the “original issue that was filed”. Which can be a separate concept from “the tracking issue that exists in the OSS project and gets closed when the bug is fixed”.
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aaronpk I guess I don't see why this needs to be a declaration?
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[dmitshur] It might be helpful to think about two parts of an issue. One is the original issue body (that the issue author authors, presumably on their site). Another is the “open or closed state”. Perhaps the OSS project should own that, since it’s up to the project author to close the issue when it’s resolved. Maybe? The issue author should be able to close it too...
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aaronpk other attributes on issues too, like tags, etc. that's all data added by someone not the author of the issue which isn't assumed to be owned by the issue author
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[dmitshur] Yep.
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[dmitshur] Well, all I can say is that this is fascinating and very challenging. I have more ideas and thoughts now, but it’s not close to a solved problem for me. Thanks for the discussion.
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[snarfed] thanks for reporting that bridgy login cookie bug, petermolnar! fixing now
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[fluffy] I keep saying how I’d love to see a community convention around just tracking issues as files in the repo itself
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[fluffy] So you can track the history via the git revision logs, pulling a bug fix also pulls the issue being closed, etc
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[fluffy] That does run into issues with spurious-looking meta commits cluttering up the history though. But that could be fixed with tooling.
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[schmarty] I once tried out a tool for keeping track of issues in a separate branch of a repo. ticgit I think?
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[schmarty] At the time working on files in a separate branch was goofy but perhaps tooling has improved
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[Rose] [schmarty] Your post NYC photo is being discussed in the Photos + Videos session by the wya
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[schmarty] Yep, ticgit. Wow it's been a while.
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[schmarty] [Rose] ooh, thanks!
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[Rose] Specifically how it’s different from a photo essay
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brandonkal I am looking into IndieAuth again to possibly implement to allow login. I have some concerns about the security of treating a url as an identity.
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GWG brandonkal: Why?
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brandonkal How would a site handle if a user wishes to change their url?
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GWG A permanent redirect
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GWG Already exists
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brandonkal No. Because the user would then sign in with their new url (which would not have a redirect) So unless the login systems are all polling to check for 301s, there will be an orphaned account
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GWG Well, let me think
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GWG Well, why would they not log in with their old one?
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GWG If they are trying to migrate?
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GWG This is certainly an interesting thing to document
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GWG I am not sure we have
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GWG brandonkal: How do you change a username on a site?
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brandonkal Then there is the issue of a user who loses control of their domain/page.
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GWG brandonkal: Still, how is that different than losing control of anything else?
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brandonkal +GWG generally the site keeps some other uid to track you, allowing you to change the username. With an IDP Oauth it's not really an issue, as the grant remains
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GWG Your identity has to be tied to something.
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GWG brandonkal: It is not that losing control or changing your domain isn't a potential issue. It is just that the protocol is predicated on the domain as your identity
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GWG It is therefore the same question of what you do if someone steals your identity.
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GWG Fully legitimate question, but not a question that isn't present elsewhere as well
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GWG Right now, I am not sure that anyone has proposed URL migration. That is worth documenting
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GWG https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth
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Loqi [indieweb] indieauth: IndieAuth Specification
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GWG There is a place to document spec issues
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GWG The question is if this an issue or an extension
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GWG I wonder if aaronpk, the spec editor, has given this thought
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cambridgeport90[ This applies to me somewhat; I have thought of changing my top level domain from .net to either .org or .io.
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brandonkal I am not speaking of malicious theft. It just seems to be much more likely that a domain name expires. If that happens and DNS records are changed by the new owner, I am not sure how a user would recover from that.
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brandonkal With a centralized IDP (i.e. GitHub, the user would have to lose access to both their account and their email account) and if only the first is lost, the email provides some safety net.
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GWG brandonkal: Centralization has pros and cons
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GWG IndieAuth adopts the idea of data ownership and control
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GWG Two principles of the Indieweb
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brandonkal Yes. I suppose sites that allow indie auth login would have to ask for an email address (or other backup auth factor) if the user wants a fallback. But I wonder if there is a more elegant way.
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GWG There may be. Not sure I have any suggestions. Losing control of my domain would be a major disaster for me on too many levels
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GWG I should go prepay for a decade on that basis
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Loqi I agree
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brandonkal One thought is the server could read the email address in the TLS cert for the domain used as the identity.
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GWG brandonkal: There are options, but it seems like more of an extension to the protocol than a missing piece.
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GWG With reading an email...my email is on my domain... still a problem
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GWG Can I ask, what is your domain?
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brandonkal For my personal site, it's my full name. brandonkalinowski.com So I am not worried about losing it.
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GWG But isn't that your identity?
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brandonkal Yes it is. So I feel safe using it to log in to the few sites I can with it.
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brandonkal For reference, this is the comment that got me thinking again about indieAuth https://aaronparecki.com/2018/06/04/12/gitea-indieauth
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] It would be fantastic if Gitea were its own OAuth2 provider! In fact, IndieAuth is the perfect candidate for how to implement this. IndieAuth is an OAuth 2.0 extension, which avoids the centralized problems with existing OAuth solutions by using DNS...
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brandonkal In that case, the provider (gitea instance, not necessarily personally hosted, i.e. a company instance) supplies the identity (a user's profile page) because the indieAuth allows an arbitrary url as the ID, which makes it quite flexible.
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GWG How so?
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jbove Anyone else having issues with https://brid.gy right now? Getting 404 on the /github integration.
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jbove The homepage is still up: https://brid.gy/
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[snarfed] thanks for reporting jbove! looks like i broke that yesterday. fixing now
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[snarfed] done!
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jbove snarfed Works! Thanks for fixing :-D
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jbove snarfed Not sure if by design, but the https://brid.gy/github page is still inaccessible if not logged-in.
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jbove snarfed Scratch that. It's working now
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[tantek] re: losing a domain, that's the account recovery problem
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[tantek] there are many ways to provide account recover, email is only one
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cambridgeport90[ PGP might be useful in this case.
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[tantek] that could be another yes. so could a secondary domain
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Introducing a Microformats API for Eventbrite: eventbrite-mf2.jvt.me" https://www.jvt.me/posts/2019/10/19/microformats-eventbrite/
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[tantek] whoa
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aaronpk nice
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[tantek] Eventbrite << 2019-10-19 [https://www.jvt.me/posts/2019/10/19/microformats-eventbrite/ Introducing a Microformats API for Eventbrite: eventbrite-mf2.jvt.me]
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Loqi ok, I added "2019-10-19 [https://www.jvt.me/posts/2019/10/19/microformats-eventbrite/ Introducing a Microformats API for Eventbrite: eventbrite-mf2.jvt.me]" to the "See Also" section of /Eventbrite https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=65687&oldid=65686
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Loqi [Jamie Tanna] Introducing a Microformats API for Eventbrite: eventbrite-mf2.jvt.me
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jamietanna[m] Thanks!
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aaronpk jamietanna++
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Loqi jamietanna has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (13 in all channels)
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brandonkal What do you guys think of riot.im and the matrix protocol?
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aaronpk what is matrix?
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Loqi Matrix is an open protocol for real-time communications https://indieweb.org/Matrix
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aaronpk ^^
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brandonkal Yes. Opinions? It would be really slick to have a single pane of glass for all the various communication apps.
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aaronpk it's really only relevant in the indieweb context if someone is using it in combination with their personal website
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aaronpk for example grantcodes[m] wrote a chat bot that lets him post to his website. it supports Skype, Slack, Facebook and Telegram, but I guess not Matrix. https://indieweb.org/PostrChild
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aaronpk i'm not sure i've seen other indieweb integrations with Matrix. if anyone knows of any please add them to the wiki! https://indieweb.org/Matrix
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brandonkal Looks interesting. Based on the [m] suffix, it looks to be a matrix irc bridge
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[grantcodes] Yeah but I don't use matrix anymore. Maybe I'm still in the room though...
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aaronpk yes a bunch of people here are connected through matrix, slack, and discord
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brandonkal [grantcodes] what do you use now?
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sknebel [usernames] are our own Slack bridge
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[grantcodes] yep, on slack because I'm lazy
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[tantek] UX tends to win
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[tantek] unless it's centralized or monoculture, in which case, any such wins are typically followed by eventual self-destruction