#indieweb 2019-10-23

2019-10-23 UTC
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[jgmac1106] I found this album cover on my hard drive
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[jgmac1106] oops thought it was chat
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[tantek] not the most community appropriate album cover
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[KevinMarks] http://epeus.blogspot.com/2005/07/microformat-conversations.html
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[KevinMarks] 'RDF was the LSD of the 90s'
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[KevinMarks] The twitter flow was also easy - see you there tomorrow, Tantek
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[tantek] is anyone actively using their personal site to fight misinformation? e.g. any examples I could show / speak to for the sessions at https://london.misinfocon.com/ ? (I'll be there tomorrow — are you also going [KevinMarks]? if there's an IndieWeb angle perhaps it's worth putting it on /events )
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[KevinMarks] I could get there late afternoon, I'm at the BBC in the morning to mid afternoon.
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[tantek] aaronpk I totally confused that events site with https://happening.net/
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[KevinMarks] Not so much personal sites as topic specific sites - see brexit.tools
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[KevinMarks] That's https://brexit.tools/ for the non auto link
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[tantek] I am interested in personal sites because that ties a specific source (the person behind the site) and their reputation
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[tantek] whereas why should I trust rando website brexit.tools?
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[tantek] it's says by ... some other org
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[tantek] ... techforuk ... which if I scroll enough finally I see (supposedly) real names and faces ... however, how do I know who is responsible for what there?
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[KevinMarks] Well, can you trust https://indicativevote.uk/ or http://stopbrexit.party/because I put my name on them?
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[tantek] I might be able to trust them more if you blogged them on your own site. That's my point
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[tantek] anyone could "put your name on them". survey sites have no way of doing any kind of authentication
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[KevinMarks] They're in my github
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[tantek] this is what I'm getting at
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[tantek] that's better, since your github is rel-me'd to you site
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[KevinMarks] Yes, that is a chain of trust
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[KevinMarks] Which reminds me, I need to update the copy on indicativevote.uk
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[tantek] Yeah I have too much to blog about all this before MisinfoCon tomorrow
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[KevinMarks] Also https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1186783233884786688?s=20
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@AOC Hypothetically, if you were, say, a member of Congress sitting on the Financial Services Committee given 5 minutes to question Mark Zuckerberg, what would you ask? 🤔 (twitter.com/_/status/1186783233884786688)
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[tantek] trying to think of a better name for what I was calling "static pages"
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[tantek] because they're obviously not necessarily "static" as in SSG
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[tantek] so far the best I have is "named pages"
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[tantek] as opposed to "dated pages"
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[tantek] er, "dated posts"
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[tantek] started gathering thoughts on minimal/expanded features to work on for named pages: https://indieweb.org/Falcon#named_pages
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Ruxton why not just use the pages/posts @tantek ? pages are 'named pages' and posts are 'dated posts' it's been used like that in a lot of CMS' for 10+ years
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Ruxton the irony of people calling them static pages, is they tend to be changed more than posts do.
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[tantek] Ruxton "page" tends to be short for web page which is more generic and I think includes posts
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[tantek] "named pages" captures the essence of their primary signifier, what makes them different — as a user I've *named* them
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Ruxton nods
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[jgmac1106] tantek closest I have is http://jgregorymcverry.com/questiontheweb https://archive.jgregorymcverry.com/critical-evaluation-of-websites/ https://archive.jgregorymcverry.com/indieweb-rights-responsibility-and-some-russian/ and https://archive.jgregorymcverry.com/can-the-indieweb-improve-better-readers-and-writers-online/ https://archive.jgregorymcverry.com/question-the-web-episode-2-diplomatic-argumentation/
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[aaronpk] [tantek] whoa that happening site looks like Twitter haha https://happening.net/static/happening-profile-arcalinea.png
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[jgmac1106] ohh yeah this too: http://networkedlearning.jgregorymcverry.com/the-courses/question-the-web/
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[tantek] tempted to make that a styling option on my site 😂
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[tantek] Thanks for the examples [jgmac1106], that's helpful to help distinguish.
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[tantek] Those do seem more like dated posts semantically, even if their permalink lacks a date
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[tantek] e.g. that most recent one is about a specific course at a specific time period
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[jgmac1106] yeah...trying to remember when it ran, I think 2016
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[tantek] so perhaps there are multiple factors, not just the "naming". after all, posts have names too
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[tantek] articles that is
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[jgmac1106] no had to be 3/15 based on dates
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[jgmac1106] fun fact 9 websites are responsible for over 90% of all minsiformation. facebook owns four of the properties
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[tantek] so I wouldn't count that as a named page, but rather a (blog) post with a named URL
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[jgmac1106] yeah I just say page or post, which is also the distinction WP makes
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[jgmac1106] same with Known, though the page plugin is called "static p[age"
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[jgmac1106] Caufield probably the biggest personal site on the minsinformation path: https://hapgood.us/
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[tonz] [jgmac1106] do you have source / ref for that fun fact? I’d love to repeat it, but not without source (making message and packaging congruent seems sensible in this case)
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[jgmac1106] yeah one sec searching my bookmarks
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[tonz] [tantek] I talk about pages and posts (as does my WP install.) I use pages on my site as 1-person wiki, so they’re named in your lingo, but not static per se.
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[tonz] [tantek] I also talk about archives, which are ‘pages’ listing posts.
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[tantek] [tonz] I agree, static is semi-misleading
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[tonz] [tantek] my pages don’t have a time reference in the URL. unlike my posts (domain/year/month)
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[tantek] yes I've seen the WordPress pages vs posts distinction. likely good for UI that prominently has both
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[tantek] archives aren't named pages, they're generated pages, from other pages + posts
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[tonz] yup, and have a diff url structure in my case / WPs case
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[tantek] agreed, the different URL structure is highly correlated, but as [jgmac1106] demonstrated with his examples, not required. it's a secondary characteristic
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[tantek] that was a useful insight
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[tantek] even "naming" is a secondary characteristic since blog articles have names (titles)
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[tantek] date-based posts vs topic-based pages
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[tantek] that seems to be the primary distinguishing characteristic
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[tonz] For a Twitter harvesting script that checks which things are linked to with a given #topic I check those links for their nature, as far as possible. I gave up figuring out if I was looking at a post or a page there, only now check if it’s a domain name only, or something with more behind the tld/ and if there’s a specific reason to assume it’s a vid, preso, pdf etc.
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[jgmac1106] [tonz] I thought it was inhere but I can't find the chart: https://www.journalism.org/2016/12/15/many-americans-believe-fake-news-is-sowing-confusion/
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Loqi Pew Research Center
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[jgmac1106] still digging through bookmarks, I need to be a better tagger
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[jgmac1106] not here, but still sharing as has some itneresting trends to engagement: https://web.stanford.edu/~gentzkow/research/fake-news-trends.pdf will find it, as I like the stat as well
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] https://hapgood.us/ is good. Thank you
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[jgmac1106] ]well off to start my day. [tonz] I will keep searching for the source....based on my notes though I was wrong it is 70% of fake news and 10 properties, with facebook owning four
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sebsel I was thinking... if someone were to use the webmentions-as-comments-via-twitter pattern, they would at least be able to receive webmentions
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sebsel So it’s not bad that they only think about it as twitter comments on your blog. they get the rest for free
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sebsel but then: they will probably still rely on twitters interface for notifications about them
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sebsel meaning that any native webmentions won’t be seen, and thus won’t benefit them
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sebsel Should we then make sure that services like Webmention.io and plugins and stuff then come with notifications too?
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[tantek] sebsel, definitely consider filing feature request issues on webmentionio for such things!
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sebsel is a list of last received webmentions a common feature in these services and plugins? I know mine hasn’t (although I do log them in a file I never look at)
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sebsel ok!
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[tantek] sebsel, what if you changed the format of the log file to h-feed with h-entry for every item, and then place it on your website at a private URL that required you to sign-in as you?
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[tantek] like notifications.html 😄
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[aaronpk] webmention.io does now provide a feed of received webmentions!
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[aaronpk] The idea is you'd put that into a reader to follow it or turn it into notifications
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sebsel oh nice!
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[tantek] there you go!
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[aaronpk] It's not real-time yet but it's a start
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[tantek] hesitates to do so because all the Bridgy @-t mentions 😭
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[tantek] needs to write his own filtering code first to make that even remotely useful
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[aaronpk] Yeah...
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sebsel the real time part is cool, but I personally would turn notifications off anyway, like I do for almost all services
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sebsel I like for example githubs notification center for that: a dedubbed list of issues that have new stuff
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sebsel Feels like a project :)
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[tantek] github's notifications are sooooo noisy with no easy/obvious way to control
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[aaronpk] I don't understand them actually
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[aaronpk] There seem to be notifications for things I don't care about, and it's missing things I do care about
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[tantek] yup
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[aaronpk] I made my own GitHub notifications in aperture and it's way better
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[Rose] I like the sound of that
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[aaronpk] I've been thinking about photo grid presentation after seeing manton's example yesterday. I think I want to do that on my own website too.
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[Rose] I definitely want it
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[aaronpk] I can't decide if I want to replace my current list of photos with that view, or make a new page for it
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[Rose] I think it would also be really interesting to have a map as the page background which is relative to the location where the pictures were taken
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[aaronpk] Also I need to figure out what to do with multi photos, I'm thinking about just showing them all individually
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[aaronpk] I think part of the appeal of that view is its simplicity, so I wouldn't want to clutter it up with one sort of stacked indicator for multi photos
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petermolnar the current and yesterday evening's conversation reminded me of this piece: http://daltoncaldwell.com/what-twitter-could-have-been - what is the mastodon-verse could actually be used this way instead?
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petermolnar *what if
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aaronpk Given that post is all about Twitter as an API, that may be a conversation better for dev
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jeremycherfas !tell sebsel I know that webmention.io has a list of all received webmentions -- you can export it -- although I prefer to use IFTTT to tell me when I have received a webmention.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jeremycherfas Sorry, I meant https://webmention.herokuapp.com/
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Loqi A WebMention Endpoint
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sebsel nice!
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Loqi sebsel: jeremycherfas left you a message 13 minutes ago: I know that webmention.io has a list of all received webmentions -- you can export it -- although I prefer to use IFTTT to tell me when I have received a webmention.
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sebsel How does IFTTT knows about the webmention then? It polls the list?
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jeremycherfas Good question; it has been a long time since I set it up. Let me check.
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jeremycherfas It appears that I pass the webmention app through granary, using the webmention api.
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sebsel Ah okay! So there is a feature there, but there are more steps than just the WM herokuapp. Nice!
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jeremycherfas It works for me.
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[jgmac1106] I made a grid of photo pages with each page then being a grid of photos do want to make one photo page feed but I need to learn more before I can do that
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sebsel what are notifications?
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Loqi notifications in the context of the IndieWeb refer to all forms and ways that an independent web site can receive a message indicating something of interest (server notifications), and potentially relay that information (preferably in realtime) to one or more devices used by the owner of that site (client notifications) https://indieweb.org/notifications
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sebsel jeremycherfas: mind adding yourself there? Your setup hasnt been described!
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[jgmac1106] I think what I want to do is make a photo grid of all my photo posts that aren't in a gallery collection...again I need to learn some automation and make some storage decisions first, everything right now is manual
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jeremycherfas OK
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jeremycherfas Done, but forgot to add a description.
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[qubyte] webmention.io also supports a callback hook. I use this+glitch to turn mentions into GitHub issues.
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[qubyte] Should work fine with IFTTT.
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petermolnar it does with zapier
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sebsel jeremycherfas++
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Loqi jeremycherfas has 9 karma in this channel over the last year (28 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] what [Sadik_Shahadu] and I have been working on....will launch this weekend at MozFest: https://goifnetwork.org/
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[Sadik_Shahadu] 😍 💯
swentel, dougbeal|iOS, jihaisse, wolftune, KartikPrabhu, jihaisse_, gareppa, xdecimal, akierig, AmineDiscord[m], shoesNsocks, [fluffy], dougbeal|mb1, [dougbeal], gRegorLove, [Lewis_Cowles], eli_oat, [KevinMarks], [tantek], patterson, [snarfed], seekr, [Rose] and gkmngrgn joined the channel; shoesNsocks left the channel
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aaronpk i'm reviewing my photos i've posted on my site the last week or two to see which I would want to feature in a photo grid layout, and it's really interesting
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aaronpk my normal filtering for home page vs /photos vs /checkins pages doesn't map to the same photos i'd want on the grid
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aaronpk on one hand, there's a bunch of photos in my checkins that I *do* want to show, and there's an occasional photo on /photos that I *don't* want to show (tho that might just be more that sometimes my screenshots appear on /photos)
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aaronpk but at the same time, it's not every photo in a checkin, only certain ones
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[Rose] Tags?
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aaronpk most of my checkins aren't tagged, so I can't pull from that
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[tantek] ^^^
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[tantek] Tag screen shots
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[Rose] A tag which translates to an invisible flag? Putting it on a checkin adds it to the photos list, putting it on a photo post removes it.
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aaronpk before jumping to the tag conclusion, the implication there is that it's a manual step
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[tantek] Then have a block list of tags for your photos page
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[tantek] Yup
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aaronpk i've been trying to look for a pattern to avoid any manual step
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[tantek] Much less work than trying to algorithm it
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[tantek] That’s how we did for ages on Flickr
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[tantek] Tag screenshots as such
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aaronpk screenshots are the exception here and i'm not too worried about them
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aaronpk it's more the photos in the checkins that are the problem
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[tantek] Have oys tag them with “checkin”
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aaronpk no that's not the problem either, the problem is that *some* photos in checkins I want, and some I don't
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aaronpk it has to do with the content of the photo itself
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[tantek] Lol
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[Rose] Is it a some photos in some checkins problem?
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aaronpk the ones I want to include tend to be the ones i've edited and touched up
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[tantek] Yeah what are the %s?
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aaronpk just scrolled back a month and I think there's about 10% of the photos in my checkins that I want to exclude
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[Rose] Hmm, exclude is easier I think.
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aaronpk so I may go with the option of adding everything, and manually removing them periodically
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aaronpk looking through my photos page, there's also about 10% there I want to exclude, and not always screenshots
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aaronpk the ones I want to exclude tend to be the ones i've syndicated to twitter
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[tantek] Maybe not stress about the quality unless it’s a privacy issue?
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[tantek] Like don’t take your /photos so seriously that it had to be all pro looking
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[tantek] People will scroll it anyway
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aaronpk it's my website i'll fret about it as much as I want to thank you very much
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[tantek] lol ok
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aaronpk ok I think I see the pattern
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[Rose] Hahaha
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Loqi awesome
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aaronpk I post photos in checkins and to instagram when the photo is something that stands relatively well on its own. when I post a photo to twitter, the text in the tweet is usually more important than the photo and the photo often doesn't make sense without it
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[Rose] I would like the request the pattern be documented somewhere so others can reference it as a starting pointing when solving this problem themselves.
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[Rose] And by "others" I mean me.
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aaronpk since this new photo grid isn't going to show any text, I don't want to include photos that require text to make sense
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[schmarty] fretting++
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Loqi fretting has 1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] Bobbymcferrin++
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Loqi Bobbymcferrin has 1 karma over the last year
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gRegorLove wat
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[jgmac1106] dont worry be happy gRegor
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sebsel aaronpk: I recognise this! Making all my checkins protected posts kinda solves the problem for me now: the better photo-checkins I mark as public
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sebsel which is also: if I syndicate to Instagram also, it kinda has to be a public post because it’s on my public instagram
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sebsel which is a lot of manual effort, to separate the both, but it sounds similar
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aaronpk haha interesting
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aaronpk i'm not even sure where to capture this on the wiki
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aaronpk what is a photo grid?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "photo grid" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "photo grid is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[Rose] What is multi photo
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Loqi A multi-photo is like a photo post, except just with multiple adjacent photos, either in a series, or tiled / arranged in some layout https://indieweb.org/multi-photo
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[Rose] Hmmm; I feel like multi photo should _link_ to photo grid. But they're clearly not at all the same thing.
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sebsel I don’t see that. A multi photo is a post, a photo grid would be a feed
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sebsel I show multi photo’s on my photo grid as just the first one and a +n in a circle next to it
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aaronpk a photo grid is a visual display of a series of [[photo]] posts, typically 3 in a column, where only the photo of the post is visible, omitting the text
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk well that's a start
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aaronpk let's start collecting examples!
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sebsel Guess I should add myself to that page then. It’s one of the buggier parts of my site, but I support it since IWWeek Düs-Nürn. Was that 2016?
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aaronpk next question... do I replace my current photos page with this new layout? or am I making a new thing?
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aaronpk ...leaning towards changing the layout of this page
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aaronpk schmarty++
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Loqi schmarty has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (78 in all channels)
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aaronpk for the photo grid example
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[schmarty] looking forward to some other examples! i put my photos page together in a very quick-and-dirty (and not touch-screen-friendly) way.
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[grantcodes] I have a slightly broken (as much of my website seems to be 😅) photo page https://grant.codes/photos
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[jgmac1106] I include texts in my photo grid (on hover) so not sure that counts.
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Extending www.jvt.me to allow for other post types" https://www.jvt.me/mf2/2019/05/cc1oa/
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jacky randomly I think about the idea of repost
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jacky reposting
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jacky and it's kind of an empty reaction
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jacky like all it does is moves a post from one feed into another
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jacky it doesn't tell you what one might have thought about it, only that they wanted to share it along
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jacky it's kind of a useless action
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aaronpk it's also one way that content from people you don't follow can end up in your reader, which helps with discovery
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jacky right but it's still kind of semantically out of context
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jacky it's like someone just saying something random during a convo
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jacky versus them informing why it was even thought to be mentioned
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jacky like tbh
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aaronpk I think there's an implicit endorsement of the content though
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jacky I'd like to see a curated feed of things people I follow liked
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jacky truee there's that
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jacky but then the whole RTs != ^ is like _well then_ why repost it?
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/aaronpk/likes
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jacky is questioning the one function of twitter he uses _too_ much
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aaronpk or https://aaronparecki.com/likes
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aaronpk funny enough I barely ever repost stuff
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aaronpk because I feel like it's *too strong* of an action
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jacky right like it becomes part of your 'main' feed
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jacky (or can become)
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aaronpk yeah I mean I think that is the definition of repost
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jacky hm hm hm
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jacky now I wonder if it's just lost its meaning to me
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jacky or _rather_
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[chrisbergr] After I've got so many ideas from aaron I'm proud that in that particular case of photo grid I've done this first ^^
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jacky actually I kinda don't know anymore
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aaronpk [chrisbergr]: ooh haha! add yourself to the wiki!
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[chrisbergr] You mean like https://indieweb.org/User%3AChristian.hockenberger.us ? 🙂
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[jgmac1106] if I bookmark it is important, if I retweet I just do that in twitter as it is an ephemeral h/t I think @chisalrdich called it digital detritus...never thought abotu discovery
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[jgmac1106] ...then again my bookmark feed is my most followed feed
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aaronpk [chrisbergr]: a screenshot of your grid page here! https://indieweb.org/photo_grid
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aaronpk and any notes on things you think are significant about yours
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[jgmac1106] if there is one thing I would like to automate more than anything it is my podcast...I get so woefully out of date mantaining them on my site and then converting them to "proper" rss for podcatchers
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[jgmac1106] ...will be long time before I solve that issue
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[chrisbergr] [aaronpk] I'll try. But I'm afraid of editing the wiki. That's why I needed more than a year until I finally added my userpage ^^
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aaronpk haha no worries
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jacky [chrisbergr]: don't be! everything is undo-friendly :)
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aaronpk but also don't be afraid :)
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[chrisbergr] Okay, I don't take any responsibility 😉
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jacky :)
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[chrisbergr] Seems like it worked. Except for the link to my user profile page. I don't got it how to create this template.
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cambridgeport90[ This is random, but since our own Matthias Pfefferle developed the plugin for Brave site verification, who do I mention adding more creation channel support to Brave for us IndieWeb folks? Peertube and Mastodon are missing.
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aaronpk I decided to turn my home page pixel art orange and black for halloween \o/
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[chrisbergr] This is black?
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aaronpk eh, black didn't look right so it's a grey-ish
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jacky bridgy++
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Loqi bridgy has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (7 in all channels)
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[chrisbergr] That makes sense.
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jacky snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 39 karma in this channel over the last year (86 in all channels)
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jacky this mastodon bridge is going to be very handy
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[chrisbergr] If you're looking for color schemes for special events I'd suggest you e.g. https://color.adobe.com/de/search?q=halloween
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aaronpk nice
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[chrisbergr] Maybe thanksgiving / christmas / chanukka what ever you celebrate next 🙂
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[tantek] jacky++ you are the best retweeter (reposter) in my Twitter timeline and have been "killing it" lately as they say
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Loqi jacky has 16 karma in this channel over the last year (82 in all channels)
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[tantek] like literally I'm like dammit I need to read Twitter just for jacky's curations (reposts) because there's so much gold
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jacky haha thank you!
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[chrisbergr] Jacky is jacky.wtf?
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jacky yup!
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jacky well
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jacky I used to primarily use https://jacky.wtf and I still point to it
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Loqi jackyalcine
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jacky but i'm working on a new site (for a year now!) at https://v2.jacky.wtf
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jacky tfw no preview lol
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[chrisbergr] Yeah, just reached your site a couple days ago via the webring. I was immediately in love with the Color Scheme 🙂
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jacky <3 ty!
kensp, stee and [chrisaldrich] joined the channel