#indieweb 2019-11-07

2019-11-07 UTC
#
[jgmac1106] tantek i am throwing around some ideas to that post. Think the author knows title is a play on Achebe's novel? I don't usually start thinking about the lede but a lot of a metaphorical direction one could take that way.,....ahh but most of the audience wouldn't have read
#
[tantek] Nope. Totally didn’t get the ref
#
[jgmac1106] ...who am I kidding I have no audience, and that is such a powerful narrative...have to be careful with the metaphor not to try to assume a fasle equivalence of the rise of social silos and Nigerian colonization
#
[jgmac1106] ...okay won't do....but if you haven't read put it on the list, good novel
#
[jgmac1106] gonna go write a poem with the word stick in it instea fro micro.blog challenge
tbbrown__ and [fluffy] joined the channel
#
[fluffy] For all that I complain about Mastodon’s self-siloing nature I do have to give them props for at least supporting a bunch of IndieWeb stuff, and *considering* supporting a bunch more (even if they haven’t decided to just yet).
#
[fluffy] at the risk of butting up against the #indieweb-dev conversational boundary: I do hope that some emergent protocol around actual private post sharing comes about soon, and that Mastodon decides to support it instead of relying so heavily on their ActivityPub-based hack.
#
aaronpk [fluffy]: any links to those discussions? I wasn't aware of any new considerations, and thought that they had dismissed anything remotely not similar to activitypub
#
[fluffy] Oh, I didn’t mean post privacy was a thing they support, but like, they’ve got pretty good mf2 support. Looks like 3.0.0 did get rid of atom like they’d been threatening for a while though 😕
#
[fluffy] oh but they still have RSS, at least. Yay?
#
Loqi yay!
#
KartikPrabhu RSS over Atom is a strange choice. opposite of what I did
#
[fluffy] yeah, it feels like such a step backwards
#
[fluffy] My understanding of the reason why they dropped atom was because of its association with OStatus.
#
[fluffy] Looks like they also dropped WebSub. 😕
#
aaronpk As far as I know the only reason they have microformats still is because it was added a while ago and they haven't got mad at it yet
#
[fluffy] Ah, it’s unfortunate that I find that take unsurprising.
#
aaronpk I'm happy to be proven wrong tho
#
[fluffy] Anyway. I haven’t seen any discussions where they specifically said they wouldn’t support not-ActivityPub. Which isn’t to say they haven’t said that, of course. I just get the impression from the current devs that they don’t want to be the ones to establish standards, they just only want to adopt them if there’s a compelling reason to.
#
[fluffy] Yeah I remember the webmention discussions.
[snarfed] joined the channel
#
[snarfed] [fluffy] they considered webmention pretty seriously and decided against it. discussion in both github and a mastodon thread (or more)
#
[snarfed] haven't seen any serious discussions of others, eg micropub or indieauth, whether for or against
#
[fluffy] The webmention stuff is a case where I kinda see both sides as having merit.
#
[snarfed] so yeah, having spent pretty deep time bridging mastodon to indieweb twice over, i'd mostly echo aaronpk. they're not antagonistic, but they're also generally not trying very hard either. they do their own thing
#
[fluffy] Incoming mentions would be an impedance mismatch and outgoing mentions would be seen as a possible privacy… “violation” is severe, but let’s call it a privacy *surprise.*
#
[snarfed] eh both are clearly doable for wholly public things (toots, likes, etc). bridgy fed clearly demonstrates that.
#
[snarfed] i'm not mad though. both bridges are up and running. we don't spend a lot of time hand wringing that twitter and FB haven't implemented webmentions either. 😁 we bridge and just keep going
#
[fluffy] Sure, but there’s a certain segment of the Mastodon userbase that bristles at the idea of notifications going out to operators of webpages based on them being discussed.
#
[snarfed] right, that was part of their justification. which is fine, their call.
#
[fluffy] And I mean I can name plenty of reasons why that’s a silly justification but at the end of the day they have to do what the users want.
#
[snarfed] (they could add wms as an opt in, but meh)
#
[fluffy] right
#
[fluffy] I mean there’s users who are *livid* that you can see someone’s public toots on their public profile if you’ve been blocked by them. But wouldn’t accept “make all your toots private” as an answer.
#
[jgmac1106] yeah speaking of which micro.blog makes a fediverse version of my site...I have a number of followers...they reply to my posts...not sure I I can handle that...I reply and own my reply but they may never know
#
[fluffy] This was also part of their reason for removing Atom.
#
[fluffy] [jgmac1106] Presumably the fediverse version shows up as regular ActivityPub and therefore it is a bidirectional notification
#
[fluffy] I know this stuff works via Bridgy Fed on my own site
#
[jgmac1106] okay, happens mainly on micro.blog, just trying to figure out best workflow...
#
[jgmac1106] cool does work
#
[jgmac1106] https://mastodon.social/users/Downes/statuses/103080994995666150
#
[fluffy] oh, like using micro.blog’s re-syndication thing from your own website? yeah that gets weird
#
Loqi [Downes 🍁] @jgmac1106 Wayback Machine?
tbbrown joined the channel
#
[tantek] [fluffy] there was a weird convo there about Micropub support with some bits of strange uninformed antagonism and it was definitely of the “not-ActivityPub” smell
#
[jgmac1106] its way better than joining a instance and trying to figure out all the rules...yeah micropub was decided against in like one hour over one thread..it was the stangest feature request, design decision..bush/weed (not a tree) I have seen
#
[fluffy] I mean it’s taken me kind of a while to warm up to MicroPub too and I’ve been immersed in this stuff for what feels like forever now 🙂
#
[fluffy] oh wow I first joined the indieweb wiki last December. which is probably about when I joined in on the chat too.
#
[jgmac1106] think I found bits and pieces: https://micro.blog/jgmac1106/1041884
#
Loqi [jgmac1106] @kevinmarks Curious, wouldn't all the micropub clients be able to post to Mastodon if @gargon added micropub?
#
[jgmac1106] https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/101059395256808997
#
Loqi [Eugen] Reading the #micropub spec. Seems simple enough, would anyone benefit from us adding that? Is anyone using that?
tbbrown joined the channel
#
[jgmac1106] there were way more threads and convo that I remember beyond those
golevka joined the channel
#
[tantek] Maybe the antagonism was deleted?
#
[tantek] Which would be great if that means people’s opinions changed and it’s worth asking again
#
[KevinMarks] The picked up rel=me eventually
#
[jgmac1106] not sure I want to call out folks and ask them why they deleted...if they chose to delete...do recall specific folks I no longer see in thread.
tbbrown joined the channel
#
[tantek] Yup that’s not helpful to unbury / re-air drama
#
[tantek] Better to just re-propose innocently assuming good faith all around in today’s audience
#
[jgmac1106] i see you weren't asking...my apologies...but yeah
#
[tantek] I was asking... for the feature request of supporting Micropub
#
[tantek] Which of course presumes IndieAuth before that
#
[jgmac1106] ahhh...now I can parse it...
#
[tantek] As an addition to and upgrade from rel=me
#
[jgmac1106] that wasan early first warning though that Mastodon not an OSS project for me... When one person decides a feature request that quick on a whim...too much control
#
[KevinMarks] I was originally proposing rel=me as a migration mechanism
#
[jgmac1106] it is a nice alternative to the Twitter are you cool enough for a bluch check approach
#
[jgmac1106] blue*
#
[KevinMarks] Yes that works, but the problem with migration in an ActivityPub world is there are keys in there somewhere. So it gets more complicated. Salmon has the same issue. If your identity isn't a url at some level then there's extra ceremony.
#
[snarfed] to be fair, activitypub has a whole client <=> server protocol - separate from server <=> server federation - which basically parallels micropub.
KempfCreative joined the channel
#
[snarfed] https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#x1-overview
#
[tantek] snarfed, to be fair, there's much less adoption of that separate protocol, in comparison to Micropub, which makes for a strong argument to implement the immediately much more user-useful Micropub protocol first
#
[tantek] like I said, unless you're following a bias against "not-ActivityPub" in which case it's design by dogma rather than user-centered
#
[snarfed] hmm! do you actually know there's "much less adoption"? citation or numbers? there are definitely a lot of different mastodon clients
#
[snarfed] i don't know how many of them use AP vs mastodon's own API though
#
[snarfed] but yeah, regardless, if AP client/server entered into a theoretical Mastodon micropub debate, i expect it would be more protocol-ideological than objective adoption based
#
[snarfed] huh so then all the Mastodon apps and clients use the REST API? maybe so
#
[snarfed] heh ok
#
[tantek] snarfed, when Micropub was proposed, it was clear there were none or nearly none from that thread
#
[tantek] the response was a bit panicked, like as if implementing Micropub was a "threat" to ActivityPub
#
[tantek] correct
#
[tantek] was proposed as a feature addition to Mastodon
#
[tantek] because it's simpler
vgszmilhv_ joined the channel
#
[snarfed] as a purely anecdotal data point, all of the interactions i've had with core Mastodon contributors (gargron, nightpool, ashfurrow, etc) have been very reasonable and open minded, including explicit IndieWeb conversations. but that's just anecdotal
#
[tantek] snarfed, yup, that's consistent
#
[tantek] it's when there's public posting threads on Mastodon about this stuff that it gets oddly weirdly political
#
[tantek] or maybe that Micropub thing was a one time fluke
#
[tantek] hence why it's worthy trying again
#
[tantek] worth*
#
[tantek] and none of the weird posting threads are from any of the core contributors you mentioned either
#
[snarfed] agreed
gRegorLove, obensource, KempfCreative, beko, patterson, wolftune, [Michael_Beckwit, MattJ, [tantek], swentel, jihaisse, yoroy, cweiske, sukil and [LewisCowles] joined the channel
#
aaronpk I wish the webmention discussion had gone differently. I understand their argument about not wanting to ping links mentioned in the post. But they could still use webmention to make replies work
#
aaronpk so like only sending a webmention to the one post being replied to
#
aaronpk the other thing I see happening with mastodon is they are very focused on shipping a usable product. Sometimes that means picking up a spec when it speeds up development. Sometimes it means making stuff up when they don't find a spec that does exactly the thing they're building.
#
swentel does mastodon use webmention now?
#
aaronpk So rather than engaging with the community and trying to improve the spec to do what they need, which would be a slow process, they do something different instead to get it out the door
#
swentel (hmm I guess not reading this)
#
aaronpk which is why you see so much mastodon specific stuff that isn't even in the activitypub spec
#
aaronpk So I guess good for them for wanting to move fast and make something that works today. But that also means short cutting the standards process which is bad later.
vrih left the channel
#
aaronpk This is in contrast to how I'm building things like Aperture, where for example I'm not in a rush to ship private posts immediately, I'm more interested in making sure we have a working sustainable spec before getting too far with building it.
#
aaronpk It does mean my products move way slower
#
swentel that's good
#
swentel it means I can keep up with any changes/additions to the API's :)
#
swentel and not have things broken every two weeks
#
jacky re: AP, there's _very_ few clients in the wild that implement the C2S part of ActivityPub
#
jacky everything is around specific implementations of AP (Mastodon, PixelFed, etc)
yoroy, [qubyte], [tonz], asymptotically, gRegorLove and dckc joined the channel
#
GWG Morning
#
Loqi happy day
swentel_, swentel and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
#
[jgmac1106] morning
M9uapawDiscord[m, ^MATUSA^, yoroy and jbove joined the channel; ^MATUSA^ left the channel
#
jbove Hello. Had a macaber shower though this morning. Did you consider what would happen to your sites if you come to pass away? Thinking of building in some form of "dead-mans-switch" which would turn my personal site into a memorial until someone forgets to pay the hosting bill. Wondering if you are using something like this already in your own sites?
#
[jgmac1106] ^^ has the paying of webhosting in his final planning docuuments
jeremych_ joined the channel
#
jeremycherfas Morning IndieWeb
#
aaronpk I thought we had a wiki page about that but the closest I can find is https://indieweb.org/longevity
fLsh42Discord[m] left the channel
#
jbove Thanks for the link aaronpk - yes, jgmac1106: considering doing that for my own site too :-)
KempfCreative, patterson, gxt, [tantek] and fauno_ joined the channel
#
[tantek] I think there have been sessions on this in the past
[chrisbergr] and [grantcodes] joined the channel
#
petermolnar I raised this topic a few times
#
petermolnar one of the ideas was a solar panel based read only webserver with a wifi hotspot built into a tombstone
#
petermolnar we've also raised the idea of an indieweb trust to keep static sites up
#
petermolnar but none of them reached any reasonable level yet
[KevinMarks] and [tonz] joined the channel
#
[tonz] I handled the digital material after my parents death in ’15, and advised a friend who passed away in ’17 and saw how badly the digital legacy of another friend who passed that year got handled (his Twitter account is still posting ‘I’ve been on Twitter for x years how about you’ automatic messages yearly) who both had a large digital footprint. The various choices, some easy, some hard, haven’t coalesced into a coherent notion what to do
#
[tonz] than making sure someone trusted has the keys to it all when needed.
#
[tonz] I pity the person who will have to delete all those accounts on all those services though.
#
cweiske "legacy"
[snarfed] joined the channel
#
[snarfed] anyone know naval and want to reply? https://twitter.com/naval/status/1192198960657485824
#
@naval Building a following on Twitter is building a castle out of sand, as the implacable tide shifts in and out. Invest in the free and open web - blogs, podcasts, newsletters. https://twitter.com/edlatimore/status/1192197804317384712 (twitter.com/_/status/1192198960657485824)
#
[KevinMarks] I've met naval, but I have disagreed with him about blockchain as meritocracy before now
[manton] joined the channel
#
[manton] On that question earlier about longevity, there was a related session in Austin about link rot and archiving. The idea of a trust that could auto-renew domain names is interesting to me. https://indieweb.org/2019/Austin/webio
gareppa, [snarfed]1, [chrisbergr]1, wolftune, [jgmac1106], akierig, [tantek], mauz555, gRegorLove and [cleverdevil] joined the channel
#
[cleverdevil] Good morning, IndieWeb :0
#
Loqi [cleverdevil]: [jgmac1106] left you a message 5 days, 5 hours ago: you may want to check out twinery http://twinery.org/ you can make html only games and stories, been playing some text games last night cool tool
gareppa and wolftune joined the channel
#
gRegorLove o/ [cleverdevil]
wolftune and [KevinMarks] joined the channel
#
[tantek] [KevinMarks] and now?
[chrisaldrich] joined the channel
#
[chrisaldrich] I just noticed that the Naval twitter account has a website in its bio section that points to https://theangelphilosopher.com/ which explicitly states "PS: This is a fan site and is not built or maintained by Naval Ravikant. It is owned by a follower who wants to give his content a home."
#
[chrisaldrich] Perhaps the upshot on the idea of /longevity is to go the route of Socrates and have a student like Plato maintain your content for you and from thence into perpituity?
#
[chrisaldrich] The fan site also makes me wonder if the @Naval account is actually maintained by the real Naval...
#
[chrisaldrich] I've seen fan sites maintained like this in the past, but I'm unaware of examples of the real person linking to them from other social
#
[chrisaldrich] What is identity?
#
Loqi A personal domain is a domain name that you personally own, control, and use to represent yourself on the internet https://indieweb.org/identity
eli_oat, asymptotically, patterson, patteroni, mauz555, ola, wolftune, [asuh], leg, gareppa, akierig, [LewisCowles] and KartikPrabhu joined the channel; leg left the channel
#
Loqi [indienews] New post: "Publ v0.5.9 released" http://publ.beesbuzz.biz/blog/393-Publ-v0-5-9-released
#
Guest57459 Hi, not sure if my post dissapeared a while ago.
#
Guest57459 Hi, not sure if my post dissapeared a while ago.
abbub joined the channel
#
[chrisaldrich] What is airtable?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "airtable" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "airtable is ____", a sentence describing the term)
KempfCreative, eli_oat, sukil, wolftune and doubleloop joined the channel; HerculanoDiscord left the channel
#
doubleloop !tell [snarfed] just saw the discussion about preferring the use of *-atom to granary for the silos from a few months back - have updated my old post to reflect that
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
[snarfed] joined the channel
#
[snarfed] thanks doubleloop!
#
[snarfed] yeah basically granary is primarily for developers, *-atom are for end users
gxt and wolftune joined the channel
#
doubleloop Interesting to see microblog.pub is going well with the indieweb features - partial micropub and outgoing webmentions added recently
[LewisCowles]1 joined the channel
#
doubleloop I dunno if twitter is going to accept my application for an app for personal use :/ So I'm just going to use an old app I had from before whenever they introduced this new app register process :)
#
[snarfed] sadly i expect even existing apps will eventually have to go through approval too
#
jacky [snarfed]: I haven't had much of a problem with my older creds
#
[snarfed] right, hence "eventually," not "already"
#
[snarfed] basically, knowing how platform owners work, if they want stricter rules, they start with new users, but eventually expand to existing users too. otherwise the new rules would never fully apply
#
jacky oic
[manton] and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
#
[jgmac1106] svg slide show: really like the way it turned out: https://jgregorymcverry.com/notes/2019-11-07-Ghana
[benatwork] joined the channel; MattJ left the channel
#
[benatwork] Delated response to [tantek]: I'm going to do better at posting to my own site instead of tweetstorming
#
[benatwork] I think I'm also going to participate in 100 Days of Indieweb starting in Dec
#
[benatwork] Delated = delayed + belated, I guess. It's been a tough week
[LewisCowles] and [KevinMarks] joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] Belayed?
KartikPrabhu and [tantek] joined the channel
#
[tantek] hugs [benatwork]. I think part of is that when wanting to catch up with an indieweb person, the instinct is to “just” check their homepage for what they’ve been up to
#
[tantek] And not have to check their Twitter or other silo profiles because why would there be anything unique there?
NickVennerDiscor joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] I feel like I should be tweeting less too.
#
[tantek] Treat anything you tweet as likely dead content that your friends won’t see. Unless you mention hashtags that Loqi picks up
#
[tantek] [KevinMarks] does your POSSE from known.kevinmarks still work? Can you do that instead of only tweeting?
NickVennerDiscor left the channel
#
doubleloop My strategy at the moment is: don't tweet my own stuff (not even POSSE); follow people on Twitter in my social reader; reply to them with POSSE via brid.gy
#
doubleloop And put my URL as my Twitter name
#
[tantek] That’s quite good
#
doubleloop And mention IndieWeb in my bio. Sort of a middle ground between not feeding the beast, but maybe intriguing the occasional friend as to what IW is
#
[tantek] So you’re only POSSEing replies to tweets?
#
doubleloop Yeah
#
mblaney I've started doing more of that too doubleloop
[snarfed] joined the channel