#indieweb 2020-02-07

2020-02-07 UTC
kensp1, miklb, KempfCreative and [snarfed] joined the channel
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[snarfed] hey [manton] do you have any stats on micro.blog? # users, # total posts, etc? totally ok if you're not sharing publicly, just curious
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maxwelljoslyn @mblaney thanks for the user template help! & am glad to hear your Planet was not the exclusive club I thought it was when I saw the "max subscriptions" error :) mblaney++
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Loqi mblaney has 7 karma in this channel over the last year (20 in all channels)
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maxwelljoslyn oops - you are not Twitter's Micki Blaney; will avoid at-mentions in this chat hereon...
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KartikPrabhu maxwelljoslyn: yeah @-mentions here link to twitter
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: is it possible to have Loqi link the correct irc-name -> twitter ? maybe if people added their twitter handle to the irc-names thing?
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aaronpk I could use the chat-names page to link to their website
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KartikPrabhu yeah! that is more indieweb :P
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aaronpk But still in general @ is not an IRC thing
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KartikPrabhu I know, but it has become common lexicon
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KartikPrabhu if twitter had webmentions then a bunch of people would be getting pings from the chat log :D
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mblaney +1 for autolinking to our websites instead of twitter
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sivy hooray http://monkinetic.blog/2020/02/07/goldfrog-updates-syndication
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GWG What is a scrapbook?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "scrapbook" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "scrapbook is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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GWG What is scrapbooking?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "scrapbooking" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "scrapbooking is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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GWG Oh, here is it
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GWG What is a throwback?
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Loqi A throwback is a current post of content from some time ago, typically at least days, often years https://indieweb.org/throwback
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GWG Thinking about doing some throwback posts.
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swentel I'm trying to add https://github.com/burhanrashid52/PhotoEditor to indigenous now
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Loqi [burhanrashid52] PhotoEditor: A Photo Editor library with simple, easy support for image editing using paints,text,filters,emoji and Sticker like stories.
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swentel will be cool if it works
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GWG Yes, does it lose photo metadata when editing?
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swentel hmm usually all metadata is lost indeed when manipulating, but I'll double check to keep exif data, that's important indeed
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swentel good remark
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GWG swentel: I use it
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GWG I massage it as well
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GWG Time in a photo is stored without timezone, I use the location to figure out the timezone and store the adjusted version
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swentel oh, didn't now that timezone was not available there
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GWG swentel: It stores without it. Oddly
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GWG But I considered doing more like petermolnar who displays a lot of data, but I'm using my phone, not a digital SLR
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GWG Not sure if anyone cares about the focal length and iso, but the time taken and where...
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swentel time and location usually is I think
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GWG swentel: That was why I commented when Indigenous was dropping it
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swentel but it's fine when you don't scale the images right?
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GWG swentel: Yes
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swentel ok good, there so many details in the app that I forget about features :)
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swentel I recently looked at an older version, I'm impressed with myself how far I got it right now
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GWG swentel: I use it regularly
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GWG So
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GWG swentel++
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Loqi swentel has 9 karma in this channel over the last year (36 in all channels)
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swentel thanks, and also thanks for the suggestions :)
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swentel even repeating them now and then works to trigger me hehe
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GWG swentel: I have a backlog of features to add you now support
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swentel hehe
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swentel oh oh .. :)
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swentel I've been thinking about the 'no account' discussion too yesterday, but not sure if I can really do something about that
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swentel offline is pretty much covered now
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swentel (besides finetuning in the reader)
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GWG swentel: Good luck
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[tantek] swentel, happy to help with no-account / zero-account discussion / questions
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[tantek] it's definitely different from offline
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[tantek] we can start with the use-cases / user-flow implications here, and switch to dev for the implementations how tos
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swentel [tantek], I guess the two cases are posting/publishing and reading. For posting, I have pretty much everything in place, drafts etc. I just need to 'expose' it because now the app requires at least one account before anything can start
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swentel being able to skip that part and go and directly prepare a post would be awesome to show the power I think
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swentel And when you'd want to publish, then either explain that you need an account, or maybe (but that might be tricky) offer an option to post it otherwise?
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[tantek] yes the "create post" use-case is a very strong one to make work local first, and without any account(s).
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[tantek] I was just looking at how https://commentpara.de/ does it!
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[KevinMarks] Post it using https://commentpara.de/ maybe?
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swentel hmm right, that's only comments of course
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swentel but, yeah, anonymous posting should be an option
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[tantek] it's a good start!
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swentel indeed
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swentel could be an option too for the authenticated user
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swentel actually, *should* be
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swentel ok, good idea!
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Zegnat Hmm. An anonymous MicroPub endpoint for scratch posts? Hmmmmmmmm.
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swentel not sure about the other post types
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Zegnat feels an itch
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swentel but it would be a very good way to show the power
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swentel of micropub and all other micropub apps in general
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swentel ok, good first case for posting then
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[tantek] yes, could even be restricted to expiring scratch posts
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[tantek] similar to Firefox Send
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swentel we could add that service to indieweb.app
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swentel for building trust in a way (I guess)
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swentel [tantek], so, how about reading? The only thing I can come up with right now is some indieweb/anonymous service too which is used to show some channels and feeds. Managing feeds (and especially parsing all kinds for formats) in the app itself seems way overkill.
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[tantek] the problem of managing feeds is the microsub server half
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[tantek] so either there needs to be a way to do account-less association of microsub client and server, or you need to manage feeds and parsing etc. without microsub, and that's the option that seems overkill (and neglects why microsub was invented in the first place)
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[tantek] I like the idea of anonymous reading of a default set of feeds, that's basically what newspapers are 🙂
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[tantek] which has implications for Microsub that we should take to the dev channel
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swentel ok
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[KevinMarks] That article about teens all sharing a common instagram account was interesting - you could have a curated indieweb account shared by people here
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[jgmac1106] Could you just take the feed from indienews?
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Zegnat I was kinda thinking expiring, yes, tantek. Or maybe some sort of bridge into something like Pastebin and have them handle expiry and storage and spam
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[KevinMarks] https://twitter.com/Asher_Wolf/status/1225707459437682688?s=20
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@Asher_Wolf I can’t imagine how hard it would be for an emancipated young person to set up a device. Everything requires something pre-existing as ID (twitter.com/_/status/1225707459437682688)
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[jgmac1106] says every teacher who has 36 email account because we go +1@gmail, +2@gmail, whenever account registration required
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[jgmac1106] ...well now every kid as their own gmail account in k12 due to Google and Chromebooks
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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GWG Good morning jeremycherfas
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jeremycherfas Hello GWG
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GWG jeremycherfas: Any new Indieweb thoughts?
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jeremycherfas Only that I miss having the time to devote a couple of hours a day to it. Currently very busy with other things. Although I may well move away from DropBox over the weekend.
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Loqi misses having the time to devote a couple of hours a day to it too
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jeremycherfas hands loqi an hour
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GWG jeremycherfas: I need to update my Nextcloud instance
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jeremycherfas You host your own?
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GWG Yes
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GWG I also want to hook it into my site in a better way
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jeremycherfas I'm not ready to host my own.
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[Rose] gives Loqi a couple of hours
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Loqi throws the couple of hours
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[Rose] You shouldn't have said you miss them then, silly bot
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[Rose] gives Loqi catnip
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[Rose] I wish I had a few more hours in my days for things
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jeremycherfas Yeah, but I'm not willing to give up on sleep.
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[Rose] I went to bed at 2:30am last night... I can't recommend that approach either
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jeremycherfas I simply cannot do that. I'd say "any more" but the truth is I was never very good at it.
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[jgmac1106] been trying to force farmer hours on myself but still go to bed too late
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[jgmac1106] Okay I am thinking I will be returning to WordPress, not me but for IWC Accra and elmcitywebmakers, I want to use Known, but worry about admintax
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[jgmac1106] We have 37 people signed up IWC Accra and each get a website, having to push that many updates every time there is a new build won't work, even with a CompSci intern
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[jgmac1106] atleast with WordPress using SemPress (as a theme in the wo.org) repo, all updates will happen automatically AND I get one button press install
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[jgmac1106] We will be using name.com instead of reclaimhopsting so hopefully no BitNinja stuff breaking all the interoperability....but I really like and want to use Known.....
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[jgmac1106] Still think with SemPress I might add the Elementor page builder, people really want the freedom to craft webpages with more layout options
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[jgmac1106] ...still going back and forth, by the time I drive to office I will probably be back on Known
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vika_nezrimaya https://fireburn.ru/posts/1581077475
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Loqi [Vika] Searching for an #IndieWeb thing I could implement in Go. Maybe a rewrite of my #Micropub server? (although I didnt deploy the new async version yet)
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Zegnat I was also thinking of trying WordPress, [jgmac1106]. Might be my IWC project this weekend
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GWG Yay..more WordPress feedback
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Loqi :D
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GWG Join us
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GWG Join us
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Zegnat I will still need you to convince me, GWG ;)
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GWG Zegnat, I will offer you platinum level support
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Zegnat Hahaha
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Loqi awesome
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[Rose] Zegnat: Install WP and GWG's plugins, the fact that they do _just work_ should do it 😉
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Zegnat Honestly it’ll all be about the editing interface, especially on mobile.
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Zegnat I can always hack indieweb stuff into templates for any CMS
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[jgmac1106] I enjoyed playing with Kirby for awhile. I just couldn't get webmention plugins to work but that may jave been my host
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[jgmac1106] Yeah GWG and we will have a good base to test private webmention
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[jgmac1106] Zegnat make sure you understand what Auttomatic and Gravatar collect and share about you. That is my only concern
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[jgmac1106] When you use the built in WordPress reader you have a siloed social reader that works well... But I hate having to sign into WordPress to leave comments
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Zegnat Why would I run Gravatar on my personal blog? Or anything coupled to Auttomatic for that matter (apart from maybe keeping auto-updates turned on)
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[jgmac1106] Gwg the course that chrisaldrich using WP was closest I got to creating a network driven by webmentions
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Zegnat We’ll see what happens this weekend :)
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[jgmac1106] I am going to see how far I get..... Guess my project is same this weekend
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[jgmac1106] Zegnat I sign up for a lot of . wordpress.com accounts for student demos, I think that it how my email address got linked between .org and .com. I can't leave native comments on wordpress blogs without logging in now...atleast as far as I can tell...annoying
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sknebel Zegnat: afaik getting gravatar out of WP is a bit of effort...
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sknebel As in, you need to do a bunch of things to not use it
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beko True. Fighting the gravatar is sort of a hobby of mine. It's a task that keeps showing and I almost ditched WP several times because of this.
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GWG beko: If that keeps you, I'll write a plugin
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Zegnat Part of the platinum service?
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beko GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 25 karma in this channel over the last year (141 in all channels)
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beko sure you'd make many ppl happy :D
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GWG Zegnat: No, that's reserved for you, but I am tired of gravatar comments.
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GWG I understand why people dislike it
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GWG I thought of doing an h-card replacement
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vika_nezrimaya I hate gravatar because I registered for it once and now I can't unregister
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vika_nezrimaya and something like h-cards is better anyways because gravatar may shut down (I hope it does >:c) but your h-card stays as long as you keep your blog up
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vika_nezrimaya also I think it may still have my deadname because I haven't logged in years
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vika_nezrimaya thankfully I don't use that email anymore
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[manton] [snarfed] We haven't shared any stats publicly. You can kind of guess if you see some of the post or user IDs, which auto-increment. But it's a little muddled because we are also bringing in posts from external feeds, Mastodon user accounts, etc. I figure when we hit some nice milestone I'll write up a summary. (I'm also tracking all Webmentions now too, but haven't looked closely at the data.)
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[manton] [jgmac1106] I think some people have experimented with using something like IFTTT to take an RSS feed and then post via Micropub to Micro.blog, so that it's included in a Micro.blog-hosted blog instead of relying on Micro.blog to pull the feed into the timeline. Another thing I'm considering: allow Micropub as a cross-post option _out_ of Micro.blog. So you post to Micro.blog and it can send it anywhere, just like it can send to Tumblr, Medium,
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[manton] etc. already.
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[jgmac1106] Interesting, I will fool around. Without getting to devy are you using JSON feed for all syndication? The microformats are in varying states across themes but everything still works POSSE wise. Just curious
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[manton] JSON Feed by default, but RSS works too.
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[manton] I would love to improve the themes with better MF2. I appreciate that you looked at it and I think I've merged most of your changes in.
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[tantek] I want an RSVP feature that indicates a desire to lock down the time
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[jgmac1106] you mean like a Doodle poll?
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aaronpk RSVPing to an even that hasn't published exact times?
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aaronpk s/even/event
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[tantek] no Doodle poll is a completely different thing
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[jgmac1106] that is a poll to lock down a time with a group of people from choices
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[tantek] person A plans an event and invites person B, person B can *only* make it at that time, so person B responds yes, and lock-time, which means person A can no longer *move* the event in time, but can still delete
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[jgmac1106] ahh okay
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[tantek] no Doodle is a poll for planning purposes
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[tantek] Doodle is not an event, nor does it lock anything down
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[tantek] it's just a poll
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aaronpk oh interesting
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aaronpk like an "RSVP but only for the exact thing that was published"
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aaronpk i guess i assumed that was the default
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[tantek] well, exact *time*
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aaronpk like if i publish an event with a specific time, get some people saying they can come, and then need to change the time, I don't just assume people can make the new time
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[tantek] no, calendar systems allow the organizer to move the event, without notifying or needing to rerequest RSVPs
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[tantek] currently
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[tantek] e.g. gCal
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aaronpk google does send out updates, and i thought that also cleared out the RSVP status
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[tantek] and then you can have miscommunications
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[tantek] this literally just happened to me
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[tantek] nope it does not always send out updates. it's optional on the event organizer's behalf
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aaronpk ahh
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aaronpk that seems like poor coordination on the organizer's behalf rather than some sort of technical failure
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aaronpk like i said above, forgetting about systems, i would not expect people to be able to attend a different time than I originally told them about
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[jgmac1106] office 365 pretty good at this. Get cancel and reschedule messages all the time, choice is attend, not attend, and leave a note with either, i think
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[tantek] this especially happens when a third party (assistant) does the scheduling on behalf of A
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[AlisonW] Presumably person A sets a range of times/dates to be chosen from though?
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aaronpk it sounded like this was a case where person A arbitrarily changed the time of the event and didn't send out notifications
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[tantek] correct aronpk
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[Rose] Sounds like Person A should send a notification...
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[tantek] [Rose] that may not be enough
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[tantek] e.g. Person B checks their calendar for the next several hours, then goes offline (because underground, appointments, etc.) and wants to lock down the things they're RSVPd to so that they don't change while they're offline
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[tantek] it's like changing a date at the last minute, usually people get annoyed/upset about that, for a good reason
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[Rose] The way Exchange works at work is when a new time is scheduled everyone is re-invited, rather than the assumption being they can come.
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[tantek] "sending a notification" does not make it all good
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[Rose] But this is an etiquette problem, rather than technology.
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[tantek] no it's not etiquette, there's no way to communicate "i'll be out of touch, don't touch my events"
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aaronpk that should be the default etiquette
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[tantek] "should be" is not really useful here, I'm talking about actual user / cultural behavior
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aaronpk if you've sent invitations and received confirmations, you should not assume you can make last minute changes
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aaronpk not even talking about technology here
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[snarfed] it's a good feature request. but aaronpk's earlier point that eg gcal "clears out the RSVP status" when an event moves is important. that points to the missing etiquette here on the organizer's point, if they ignored that
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[tantek] especially in orgs where event shuffling is delegated to someone else
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[snarfed] feature request and etiquette are both useful here
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[tantek] I want to make it so that if they try to move it, it fails, and their only option is the much *harder* option of deleting the event and recreating it which is both more work, and forces a re-notification
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[tantek] or they try to move it, and the UI says, you can't move it because the following recipients have locked the time. that's useful information
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aaronpk i'm not sure forcing technological solutions into social problems is the right solution
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[Rose] I agree with aaronpk
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[tantek] this isn't a "social problem" this is actually a communication problem
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[tantek] there's no way to communicate the semantic I'm talking about
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[Rose] Accepting an event invitation is locking your time though.
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aaronpk here's how google calendar handles it. i just invited my work account to an event. now when i move the event in google, it prompts me: https://i.imgur.com/vF7REt6.png
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aaronpk if someone clicks "don't send" there, then they're likely going to ignore whatever other prompts you throw at them to try to prevent them from changing the time too
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[Rose] And disallowing moving of an event is also likely to make someone think the feature is missing and they'll use another system...
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[Rose] Or just not move it and expect everyone to turn up at the new time
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aaronpk (moving the event in google calendar and sending that update did in fact clear out the RSVP status)
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[tantek] I suppose it could be done on the receiver side by means of a setting to auto-RSVP "no" if the event is updated with a new time
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[snarfed] rsvp no vs missing rsvp, but otherwise still requires organizers to notice/care, like now
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[tantek] again, it's a different dynamic when organizing is delegated
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[snarfed] eh kind of but i think that's a bit overstated. the admin's still responsible for understanding who's confirmed, etc, even if they're not the "final" owner
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Loqi [indienews] New post: https://www.utoronto.ca/news/re-decentralizing-web-u-t-researcher-helps-build-more-egalitarian-internet (from https://jackjamieson.net/83911-2/)
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